Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

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malabargold
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by malabargold »

What you say about Harvard is true, except the part about
legacy; nearly 30% of the latest incoming class had legacy ties
to the College.
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curly lambeau
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by curly lambeau »

rhornback wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:03 pmThe average early salary for business school graduates from the University of Illinois is $57,700 while University of Chicago has an average early salary of $3K less at $54,700. Yet University of Illinois is $31,400 per year while University of Chicago is $74,000.
The University of Chicago has no undergraduate business program, so these numbers can't be meaningful. These numbers certainly can't be accurate of Booth graduates at Chicago.
golfCaddy
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by golfCaddy »

They then tried to control for all factors (other than the college experience itself) that might make some students more likely to earn more after graduation. They controlled for gender, age, race, parental income, parental education, SAT, college grade point average, college major, private/public institution, advanced degree after graduation and region of employment after college.

The results show that, after controlling for all those factors, graduates of the most competitive colleges earn (10 years after graduation) 8 percent more than graduates of very selective (but not the most competitive) colleges, 11 percent more than graduates of colleges that are competitive, and 19 percent more than graduates of colleges that are not competitive in admissions.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... ngs-payoff
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curly lambeau
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by curly lambeau »

rhornback wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:31 pm I have no problem people studying whatever they want. There are some who feel strongly about a liberal arts education. But I do think that this should be down with your eyes open though in terms of cost: loans, salary, and payback.
From a more global perspective, it is the perceived-high-ROI majors that are most likely to be evaluated with no concern for cost. Since universities do not do a la carte pricing or by-major pricing, students in many of those costly-to-provide majors are free riding, and universities focusing their attentions on these expensive and in-demand programs aren't actually maximizing their own ROI. (That doesn't mean I support changing the tuition system.)

The ROI on the allegedly profitable majors wouldn't be so great if the costs weren't subsidized by the allegedly less profitable majors. To educate a student in engineering costs twice as much to educate a student in business, but the tuition/loan flow to the university is identical. Returns to the university for educating the students are identical for health and engineering (high graudate earnings) and math, philosophy, and languages (lower graduate earnings). There's a very interesting econ paper on this: http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13878.pdf

The physical sciences fare the worst in this sort of analysis---expensive to provide with relatively low graduate earnings. So should our institutions of higher learning de-prioritize or abandon basic science? I think the answer is obvious.

Universities aren't trade schools, and good ones enrich your life.
malabargold
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by malabargold »

My kid is a concentrator in a basic science at Harvard.

Wanted to be a bench scientist and academic her whole life.

She is doing research with many of the very best in the field.

It’s doubtful she will get rich, but she’s exactly where she wants
to be and doing exactly what she wants.

That’s the best ROI of all.
bpp
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by bpp »

tmcc wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:25 am does anyone here really think the quality of the degree from harvard is that much better than a well regarded public school? do they know the american civil war that much better? is the curriculum that much more rigorous? its not. it is 100% scarcity, branding and differentiation.
I do not think this is true. I once had occasion to take the same course (same subject, same textbook) at both a highly-ranked school and a less-highly-ranked one, and the difference in how much material was covered and the depth to which it was covered between the two schools was noticeable. This is an embarrassingly low-statistics sample, of course, but leads me to believe that higher-ranked schools do not serve merely as admissions filters, with the quality of education thereafter the same. I think one will in fact learn more at a higher-ranked school, if one can keep up.

(That said, I got my terminal degree at the lesser school, which set me up to have a very satisfying career since, largely as a result of some unique opportunities that were available at that school. So I'm certainly not arguing that a degree from a famous school is necessary to have a good life. But I think top schools do, in fact, have more rigorous curricula than others.)
Valuethinker
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Valuethinker »

bpp wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:35 pm
tmcc wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:25 am does anyone here really think the quality of the degree from harvard is that much better than a well regarded public school? do they know the american civil war that much better? is the curriculum that much more rigorous? its not. it is 100% scarcity, branding and differentiation.
I do not think this is true. I once had occasion to take the same course (same subject, same textbook) at both a highly-ranked school and a less-highly-ranked one, and the difference in how much material was covered and the depth to which it was covered between the two schools was noticeable. This is an embarrassingly low-statistics sample, of course, but leads me to believe that higher-ranked schools do not serve merely as admissions filters, with the quality of education thereafter the same. I think one will in fact learn more at a higher-ranked school, if one can keep up.

(That said, I got my terminal degree at the lesser school, which set me up to have a very satisfying career since, largely as a result of some unique opportunities that were available at that school. So I'm certainly not arguing that a degree from a famous school is necessary to have a good life. But I think top schools do, in fact, have more rigorous curricula than others.)
There was a post somewhere on the internets these last few weeks making exactly this point.

Someone who had done 2 years at Harvard then finished with 2 years at a midwestern state school.

The level at Harvard was much higher-- he said that he had really struggled. The amount and detail of readings, and the assumptions of ability and background knowledge.

Coming from a (good) large public Canadian university (equivalent to your midwestern schools) to a more intense post graduate course in UK, I certainly found the same. The quality of the writing demanded was much higher-- it was just assumed that you had read all the relevant works in a subject area and were concentrating on the bleeding edge of research questions. Essays had to be much more incisive and focused.

You can get a good education at a big public university in North America. It's just harder. Your peer group will not keep you up to the mark-- a lot of people in my classes in undergrad were either time serving, or lacked basic English language skills (foreign students) or basic backgrounds. Contrast to some of the kids from Oxbridge, which is the very apex of the UK university system and which teaches that by the tutorial system-- they are, generally, pretty sharp cookies-- they have been in intensive preparation since GCSEs (age 14-15) and A levels (16-18) in this type of education. I would say at 18 they write and think like North American kids (generally) do at 21-22. In fact, in university they often seem to backslide-- the best North American kids do catch up.

(a child of a close friend has done the International Baccalaureate. In 2nd year of a well-rated engineering programme in North America, the child is still reviewing some material done in the IB-- the kids from a North American educational background (one of the higher rated systems, too) just don't have the same level of preparation. All those private school fees have paid off.

If your kid is academically minded, and it's available, then I can highly recommend the IB-- in retrospect I wasted the last 2 years of my high school education. Note the IB is not the dreaded "Bac" of the French system-- that is different, and I can only recommend it for a child headed for the French university system).

In something like engineering (does Harvard offer an engineering degree, undergrad?) it will matter less, I imagine. Because the important point is the syllabus has to be covered in lectures + labs, and it's a common body of knowledge.
Cruise
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Cruise »

The schools one list on CVs or LinkedIn profiles certainly help get a first job and market oneself throughout a career. Which lawyer or surgeon should I choose? For many, the school attended is a proxy for unknown competencies.

Like SATs and GREs, school prestige may predict short-term success. Social skills and conscientious are better predictors of longer—term career success.

On a n=1 note, of the PhDs in my grad school cohort, those with Yale, Harvard and Stanford undergrad degrees were the least motivated and took the longest to graduate (perhaps because of their wealth). The most successful grad came from a third-rate public college and very modest means. (I had a great career and came from a top-ranked public university and a blue-collar upbringing.)

The actionable tale here is that a student needs to be hungry for knowledge and motivated to enter the workforce. Knowing that there is no fall-back option creates clarity of purpose.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:26 am
(a child of a close friend has done the International Baccalaureate. In 2nd year of a well-rated engineering programme in North America, the child is still reviewing some material done in the IB-- the kids from a North American educational background (one of the higher rated systems, too) just don't have the same level of preparation. All those private school fees have paid off.

If your kid is academically minded, and it's available, then I can highly recommend the IB-- in retrospect I wasted the last 2 years of my high school education. Note the IB is not the dreaded "Bac" of the French system-- that is different, and I can only recommend it for a child headed for the French university system).
Going OT somewhat, but it might be of interest to other parents of HS kids.
My kids both attended a HS that offered the IB. One got an IB diploma, the other took some IB courses ala carte.

Pros of the IB curriculum, for my kid (your kid's mileage may vary):
1. Really learned how to write, often, at length, and well.
2. Learned how to perform "reading list triage." This is my term for determining which assigned reading to read closely, which to skim, and which to ignore. In later years, this was very useful. For example, Yale has a first-year program called Directed Studies, which includes a massive reading list; kids who read everything on the assigned list are mere shells of their former selves when they emerge from the library, friendless and pallid.
3. Learned how to take criticism of his arguments and papers

Con of the IB curriculum, for my kid (your kid's mileage may vary):
For an advanced math student, the IB Math HL course was rudimentary and boring, but was absolutely required for the diploma. A better teacher would have allowed my son to do some other work during class and for homework. My son survived, but it was a waste of time.

In retrospect, perhaps taking selected IB courses would have been better, rather than the full IB diploma.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
livesoft
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by livesoft »

Cruise wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:54 amThe actionable tale here is that a student needs to be hungry for knowledge and motivated to enter the workforce. Knowing that there is no fall-back option creates clarity of purpose.
Actually, another fall-back option is to find a soul mate that says one doesn't have to ever work at all.

And my statement comes from knowledge of someone who did IB high school, Ivy League undergrad, Cal-tech grad school, then dropped out and has never worked a day in their life. :twisted:
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EFF_fan81
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by EFF_fan81 »

Cruise wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:54 am The schools one list on CVs or LinkedIn profiles certainly help get a first job and market oneself throughout a career. Which lawyer or surgeon should I choose? For many, the school attended is a proxy for unknown competencies.

Like SATs and GREs, school prestige may predict short-term success. Social skills and conscientious are better predictors of longer—term career success.

On a n=1 note, of the PhDs in my grad school cohort, those with Yale, Harvard and Stanford undergrad degrees were the least motivated and took the longest to graduate (perhaps because of their wealth). The most successful grad came from a third-rate public college and very modest means. (I had a great career and came from a top-ranked public university and a blue-collar upbringing.)

The actionable tale here is that a student needs to be hungry for knowledge and motivated to enter the workforce. Knowing that there is no fall-back option creates clarity of purpose.
I have seen this phenomenon. I think there are multiple explanations:

1. The kids from the third-tier public school are the top 0.1% of the school. The kids from Harvard are not the top 0.1% of Harvard.
2. The kids from the third-tier public school probably come from a background where they did not have a reasonable shot at Harvard to begin with, their undergrad "prestige" was not fully reflective of their ability.
3. Sometimes Ivy league students are given the extremely mistaken impression that they've "won the game" when all they've really done is gotten a head start on an ultramarathon. Personally, I wish top universities would spend less time telling their students how brilliant they are and more time making sure they are cracking the books.
4. Not everyone wants to work a zillion hours a week, but then it can be tricky for someone who is smart and wants to do something interesting to find out how to accomplish that without totally sacrificing quality of life. In some ways, finding that balance is actually trickier than just sacrificing it all to "get the top."

I went to Ivy undergrad and grad? Was it worth it? Grad school yes but undergrad I am not sure. But I was a bit immature in undergrad, and the school was still challenging enough that I managed to get into a great graduate school anyways. Not sure if I was at a big public would I have matured quicker or fallen through the cracks. It's hard to do an alternate history on life.

In any case, in still running in the ultra-marathon. Ask me again in 20 years.
Valuethinker
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Valuethinker »

blinx77 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:49 am
Cruise wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:54 am The schools one list on CVs or LinkedIn profiles certainly help get a first job and market oneself throughout a career. Which lawyer or surgeon should I choose? For many, the school attended is a proxy for unknown competencies.

Like SATs and GREs, school prestige may predict short-term success. Social skills and conscientious are better predictors of longer—term career success.

On a n=1 note, of the PhDs in my grad school cohort, those with Yale, Harvard and Stanford undergrad degrees were the least motivated and took the longest to graduate (perhaps because of their wealth). The most successful grad came from a third-rate public college and very modest means. (I had a great career and came from a top-ranked public university and a blue-collar upbringing.)

The actionable tale here is that a student needs to be hungry for knowledge and motivated to enter the workforce. Knowing that there is no fall-back option creates clarity of purpose.
I have seen this phenomenon. I think there are multiple explanations:

1. The kids from the third-tier public school are the top 0.1% of the school. The kids from Harvard are not the top 0.1% of Harvard.
2. The kids from the third-tier public school probably come from a background where they did not have a reasonable shot at Harvard to begin with, their undergrad "prestige" was not fully reflective of their ability.
When I have run into kids like this in postgrad:

- they were often the children of immigrants. They grew up in a poor area, Dad drove a taxi. But may have had a Phd back home in Iran, Armenia, China- whatever. (I think I read that Kenyan Americans have the highest attainment of all ethnic groups in terms of postgraduate qualifications).

So these were "middle class kids" who grew up in poorer school areas

- they were geniuses. There was a guy in postgrad, his father was a farm labourer and he had a strong rural accent from a part of the UK where that is a figure of fun, conveying low intelligence. He went to a quirky university in terms of undergrad economics. He was one of 4/80 people to get a First Class degree (read A) on his masters. I think he's a senior economist with the IMF or the World Bank or somesuch organization these days having done a Phd somewhere pretty impressive.
3. Sometimes Ivy league students are given the extremely mistaken impression that they've "won the game" when all they've really done is gotten a head start on an ultramarathon. Personally, I wish top universities would spend less time telling their students how brilliant they are and more time making sure they are cracking the books.
I get the impression they actually do. BUT:

- all the other systems t the university tell the kids how great they are, how selective it is - they need that with the alumni/ parents to keep the donations flow going (Deans get fired from business schools for drops in ranking)
- professors are rewarded for research and publication, not teaching. The tutorial seminars are led by grad students
- there's fairly rampant grade inflation

As with all elite systems, the system is biased to telling these kids they are elites.
4. Not everyone wants to work a zillion hours a week, but then it can be tricky for someone who is smart and wants to do something interesting to find out how to accomplish that without totally sacrificing quality of life. In some ways, finding that balance is actually trickier than just sacrificing it all to "get the top."
This is utterly true. Unless you are truly a genius, the admit policies seem focused around getting kids who have excel at *something*-- student leadership, athletics, community etc. So you get a class full of people who all have their spikes - the concert-level pianist, the ice hockey player (was a neighbour's kid at one of the big 3 - now in medical school), the footballer (soccer), the North American champion debater etc. Of course these kids are still academically excellent but somewhere they have a "spike" that the school latches onto.

Of course if they go on to Law School or a top Business School and Wall Street this work-life balance thing only gets worse. They will struggle with it for the rest of their adult lives (as they will if they go tenure track academia in any field).
I went to Ivy undergrad and grad? Was it worth it? Grad school yes but undergrad I am not sure. But I was a bit immature in undergrad, and the school was still challenging enough that I managed to get into a great graduate school anyways. Not sure if I was at a big public would I have matured quicker or fallen through the cracks. It's hard to do an alternate history on life.

In any case, in still running in the ultra-marathon. Ask me again in 20 years.
It's a good summary and I have heard an argument that a really good 4 year college is a better solution for many of these kids (would have been for me, at that age)- -where they get the advantages of being up close in small seminars with very high quality young academics (Higher Education can pick and choose in most fields these days).

Agree re ultra marathon. It never stops.
dbr
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by dbr »

Clearly the evidence is that the best thing is to drop out of an Ivy League university: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates
Broadway2018
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Broadway2018 »

I read some of this post, however, not every comment. I am following this because I find it very interesting to hear the perspectives. I went to a state school for both undergrad and post grad programs. I have a great job and work at one of the top 10 companies globally. However, I have bounced around a lot in the last 8 years since graduating, always for more pay and a better job.

I do think maybe I would have had better quality jobs right out of the gate if I went to a top tier school, however, I am more grateful for my job now because I worked many awful jobs prior to finding it and worked my way up. Knowing it was not handed to me is a reward in itself.

In my current job I interview kids coming out of school and while they look great on paper they are very misled. They expect 6 figure salaries, tons of time off, free travel, etc.. I literally had someone ask if they could have 2-5pm off everyday for Vollyball practice. Also, I have found on paper many kids from great schools look good, however, when you ask them to take a skills test or something, they cannot pass it. For example, at my job, interviews consist of case studies and basic excel tests. 90% of applicants cannot pass them. The people that pass are the ones who are proactive and prepare prior. Most kids think they will just skate by because of their resume that their parents built up.

Anyway, I think it goes more with someone's personality then what school. If you are a go-getter and proactive you will have better opportunities.
fantasytensai
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by fantasytensai »

kwarden13 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:08 am I read some of this post, however, not every comment. I am following this because I find it very interesting to hear the perspectives. I went to a state school for both undergrad and post grad programs. I have a great job and work at one of the top 10 companies globally. However, I have bounced around a lot in the last 8 years since graduating, always for more pay and a better job.

I do think maybe I would have had better quality jobs right out of the gate if I went to a top tier school, however, I am more grateful for my job now because I worked many awful jobs prior to finding it and worked my way up. Knowing it was not handed to me is a reward in itself.

In my current job I interview kids coming out of school and while they look great on paper they are very misled. They expect 6 figure salaries, tons of time off, free travel, etc.. I literally had someone ask if they could have 2-5pm off everyday for Vollyball practice. Also, I have found on paper many kids from great schools look good, however, when you ask them to take a skills test or something, they cannot pass it. For example, at my job, interviews consist of case studies and basic excel tests. 90% of applicants cannot pass them. The people that pass are the ones who are proactive and prepare prior. Most kids think they will just skate by because of their resume that their parents built up.

Anyway, I think it goes more with someone's personality then what school. If you are a go-getter and proactive you will have better opportunities.
It's about leverage, rather than naiveness. The kids with Harvard degrees are asking for Volleyball time because they have leverage, not because they don't know it's ridiculous. If you don't hire them, someone else will. That's power, and it comes with an Ivy degree.

When you have an Ivy degree, you are interviewing the company. When you don't have an Ivy degree, the company is interviewing you.
Broadway2018
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Broadway2018 »

fantasytensai wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 am
kwarden13 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:08 am I read some of this post, however, not every comment. I am following this because I find it very interesting to hear the perspectives. I went to a state school for both undergrad and post grad programs. I have a great job and work at one of the top 10 companies globally. However, I have bounced around a lot in the last 8 years since graduating, always for more pay and a better job.

I do think maybe I would have had better quality jobs right out of the gate if I went to a top tier school, however, I am more grateful for my job now because I worked many awful jobs prior to finding it and worked my way up. Knowing it was not handed to me is a reward in itself.

In my current job I interview kids coming out of school and while they look great on paper they are very misled. They expect 6 figure salaries, tons of time off, free travel, etc.. I literally had someone ask if they could have 2-5pm off everyday for Vollyball practice. Also, I have found on paper many kids from great schools look good, however, when you ask them to take a skills test or something, they cannot pass it. For example, at my job, interviews consist of case studies and basic excel tests. 90% of applicants cannot pass them. The people that pass are the ones who are proactive and prepare prior. Most kids think they will just skate by because of their resume that their parents built up.

Anyway, I think it goes more with someone's personality then what school. If you are a go-getter and proactive you will have better opportunities.
It's about leverage, rather than naiveness. The kids with Harvard degrees are asking for Volleyball time because they have leverage, not because they don't know it's ridiculous. If you don't hire them, someone else will. That's power, and it comes with an Ivy degree.

When you have an Ivy degree, you are interviewing the company. When you don't have an Ivy degree, the company is interviewing you.
I think someone asking for that with no work experience except internships and a degree is far off base. No matter where they went to school. What will they ask for next after they have been there 6 months?
EFF_fan81
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by EFF_fan81 »

fantasytensai wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 amIt's about leverage, rather than naiveness. The kids with Harvard degrees are asking for Volleyball time because they have leverage, not because they don't know it's ridiculous. If you don't hire them, someone else will. That's power, and it comes with an Ivy degree.

When you have an Ivy degree, you are interviewing the company. When you don't have an Ivy degree, the company is interviewing you.
I don't think that is a good attitude. First, you should always put your best foot forward at whatever you do, even if it is cleaning toilets. Second, if you don't feel the need to impress at a job interview, then you probably aren't that excited about the opportunity, which in turn means it's probably not a good fit, or there is something off with your psychology.

On the other hand, unless it's a life-changing opportunity (e.g., clerking at the Supreme Court), you should always critically evaluate whether a position is a good fit. If you are miserable at the job, you won't perform well (at least not for the long term -- you can push for a few years only on adrenaline and grit, the way many young consultants / biglawyers / bankers do but ultimately if you aren't satisfied it's going to catch up on you), which is good for nobody. Note that many prestige jobs (e.g., Goldman Sachs) come with enormous drawbacks. Unicorn positions rarely exist.

Personally, given the importance that physical fitness and recreation have on human health, and given vast improvements in productivity over the last 100 years, I wonder why we are still wedded to this model that "successful" people need to sit at a chair and frantically push papers for 75 hours a week until their bodies start to break down. (This is my biglaw background coming out here -- I do different legal work now but the culture differs only by degree.) This doesn't detract from my comments earlier about putting my best foot forward. When I am on the clock, I strive to do the very best I possibly can. I just don't see the ultimate benefit to being on the clock 75 hours a week to begin with.

We'd probably all be better off -- likely almost as materially wealthy and a whole lot happier -- if more people at all levels and of all backgrounds kicked out for Volleyball at 2pm on some days. Seven years of ivy league training and nine years of work experience and I've had zero opportunities to leave work early for Volleyball thus far. But I sure as heck would like to sometimes. At this rate I'm going to be swimming in money before 50 but will probably have accumulated some health issues to boot. But if I asked for some volleyball time now everyone would look at me like I had two heads. The system is really sort of irrational in many ways. But that's a whole different thread.

In any case, the point remains that while I generally am supportive of more work-life balance I would be off-put with special requests from an inexperienced employee who seemed to think he or she was interviewing ME. If they are out at volleyball practice and stuff needs to be done, then guess whose going to be stuck there late doing it? Me.

Graduating in 2009 certainly did wonders for any remaining ideas I had from undergrad that I was somehow special or that, even if I was, anyone cared. A good recession can certainly help focus the mind...
Broadway2018
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Broadway2018 »

blinx77 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:23 am
fantasytensai wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 amIt's about leverage, rather than naiveness. The kids with Harvard degrees are asking for Volleyball time because they have leverage, not because they don't know it's ridiculous. If you don't hire them, someone else will. That's power, and it comes with an Ivy degree.

When you have an Ivy degree, you are interviewing the company. When you don't have an Ivy degree, the company is interviewing you.
I don't think that is a good attitude. First, you should always put your best foot forward at whatever you do, even if it is cleaning toilets. Second, if you don't feel the need to impress at a job interview, then you probably aren't that excited about the opportunity, which in turn means it's probably not a good fit, or there is something off with your psychology.

On the other hand, unless it's a life-changing opportunity (e.g., clerking at the Supreme Court), you should always critically evaluate whether a position is a good fit. If you are miserable at the job, you won't perform well (at least not for the long term -- you can push for a few years only on adrenaline and grit, the way many young consultants / biglawyers / bankers do but ultimately if you aren't satisfied it's going to catch up on you), which is good for nobody. Note that many prestige jobs (e.g., Goldman Sachs) come with enormous drawbacks. Unicorn positions rarely exist.

Personally, given the importance that physical fitness and recreation have on human health, and given vast improvements in productivity over the last 100 years, I wonder why we are still wedded to this model that "successful" people need to sit at a chair and frantically push papers for 75 hours a week until their bodies start to break down. (This is my biglaw background coming out here -- I do different legal work now but the culture differs only by degree.) This doesn't detract from my comments earlier about putting my best foot forward. When I am on the clock, I strive to do the very best I possibly can. I just don't see the ultimate benefit to being on the clock 75 hours a week to begin with.

We'd probably all be better off -- likely almost as materially wealthy and a whole lot happier -- if more people at all levels and of all backgrounds kicked out for Volleyball at 2pm on some days. Seven years of ivy league training and nine years of work experience and I've had zero opportunities to leave work early for Volleyball thus far. But I sure as heck would like to sometimes. At this rate I'm going to be swimming in money before 50 but will probably have accumulated some health issues to boot. But if I asked for some volleyball time now everyone would look at me like I had two heads. The system is really sort of irrational in many ways. But that's a whole different thread.

In any case, the point remains that while I generally am supportive of more work-life balance I would be off-put with special requests from an inexperienced employee who seemed to think he or she was interviewing ME. If they are out at volleyball practice and stuff needs to be done, then guess whose going to be stuck there late doing it? Me.

Graduating in 2009 certainly did wonders for any remaining ideas I had from undergrad that I was somehow special or that, even if I was, anyone cared. A good recession can certainly help focus the mind...
Funny I graduated the same year and I wonder if it is because jobs were scarce then and everyone was laying off. I took a $13 hour analyst job out of college for a year just to get experience. Yes, I have moved up to over 6 figures now but I worked my a$$ off and took opportunities as they came. Also, flexibility is a big one. A lot of times I have had to move or do an intermediary job to get to where I wanted to go. Some young people do not realize you may not get your dream job right away, however, there are steps to help you get there faster. Although some jobs were better than others, I have learned something in every job I held.

I agree with the 9-5pm system being outdated. I work at home and can regularly get my job done in less than 40 hours a week, however, we are required to be online for 40 hours. At first, I was a real go-getter, but that just came with being rewarded with more work, not necessarily more pay. So now I slow down a bit. Not sure why the system says we have to work 40 hours when everyone works at different paces. I routinely do other "extra" work in my free time. Such as looking into industry news, and looking over our company benefits, etc..
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by a »

blinx77 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:23 am Personally, given the importance that physical fitness and recreation have on human health, and given vast improvements in productivity over the last 100 years, I wonder why we are still wedded to this model that "successful" people need to sit at a chair and frantically push papers for 75 hours a week until their bodies start to break down.
..
We'd probably all be better off -- likely almost as materially wealthy and a whole lot happier -- if more people at all levels and of all backgrounds kicked out for Volleyball at 2pm on some days.
Agreed*, the 40 (or 75) hour left-brain week is a hold-over.

The optimal is closer to 20 hours a week and
not all in one block. If a person ran as their job they
couldn’t do more than 20 hours a week sustainably and it
wouldn’t be in 4 hour blocks.

If I am doing book work it is great to get up after the brain
starts to peter out and rest in the back yard, then go for a jog
or eat something. Once ready, there’s work that involves
people..

*and well said
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by inbox788 »

dbr wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:07 am Clearly the evidence is that the best thing is to drop out of an Ivy League university: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates
Besides Bill, don't forget Mark or Matt or Bucky.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/04/08/fa ... index.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-suc ... -career-13

For some, it's not worth it. At least not the whole education leading to a degree. For a few, simply stepping onto campus and breathing the air is all the ivy education they need. I suspect these individuals would have done quite as well or better without the experience, but you can't go back and rerun the experiment. The closest might be a twin or sibling study. Has anyone heard of one yet? Might not have a big enough sample size to be relevant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/educ ... twins.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winklevoss_twins
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/joshu ... iptive.pdf
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by rhornback »

curly lambeau wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:59 pm From a more global perspective, it is the perceived-high-ROI majors that are most likely to be evaluated with no concern for cost. Since universities do not do a la carte pricing or by-major pricing, students in many of those costly-to-provide majors are free riding, and universities focusing their attentions on these expensive and in-demand programs aren't actually maximizing their own ROI. (That doesn't mean I support changing the tuition system.)

The ROI on the allegedly profitable majors wouldn't be so great if the costs weren't subsidized by the allegedly less profitable majors. To educate a student in engineering costs twice as much to educate a student in business, but the tuition/loan flow to the university is identical. Returns to the university for educating the students are identical for health and engineering (high graudate earnings) and math, philosophy, and languages (lower graduate earnings). There's a very interesting econ paper on this: http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13878.pdf

The physical sciences fare the worst in this sort of analysis---expensive to provide with relatively low graduate earnings. So should our institutions of higher learning de-prioritize or abandon basic science? I think the answer is obvious.

Universities aren't trade schools, and good ones enrich your life.
I am on board with this argument when the cost of college was significantly less. When I went to school my education cost about $7,500 a year. My first job I made $33K a year. But now with education costing 50K a year and your first job pays you 50K the economics have changed.

If course your mileage may vary: some education costs more and some less. Some professions have a higher starting salary and some less.

Frankly as a resident of Illinois where I have paid taxes for the last 30 years I am pretty irritated by how little money is spent to education my kids in college (and it is getting worse every year). Note it is doubtful that either of my kids will go to an Illinois public school. IMO there are greener pastures.

I agree with your statement that universities are not trade schools. I view them as sorting mechanisms for students to show employers that they have the smarts, perseverance, and aptitude to learn, get work done and show up on time.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by Retireby40 »

If possible, I suggest you start with the target job/company/industry and work backwards when determining a college selection strategy.

Elite schools have two advantages.
1. Some professions prefer Ivy league graduates or even require them as credentials. The most notorious example is the Supreme Court but executive leadership in other areas like government, academia, law, medicine, finance and research are disproportionately represented by Ivy League grads.
2. Campus recruitment by elite corporations. Every large company has a target list of their favorite short list of universities. They fund and staff recruitment programs for those schools. They will pay more for entry salaries from those schools and it is easier getting the first job.

The good news is that business is still one of the most open industries. A surprisingly low percentage of the Fortune 2000 companies has a CEO with an Ivy League degree. Drive and ability perhaps matter more than the alma mater.

Graduating location also is important. Different industries concentrate in different geographical areas (e.g. Silicon Valley - high tech, NYC - Finance, Detroit - Automotive, Boston - Medical). If you don't make it into an ivy league but want to work in those industries then go to a 2nd tier school in those locations.

You will be heavily recruited (if not preferred) by the 2nd tier companies in those locations. After some experience, you can move to the top tier companies if you still want to during periodic hiring booms. Arguably a better long term ROI strategy.

Furthermore, you may decide you have more opportunity in the growth companies and drive those prestigious brands out of business ;-)
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by VictoriaF »

rhornback wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:03 pm I live in an affluent area with many doctors, lawyers; movers and shakers. Many of their kids are going to ivy league level schools. Understandably their parents are very proud. My son on the other hand is an average student.
A top Ivy League school (Harvard, Princeton, Yale) is the best option because:
(1) Ivy League schools have global name recognition and
(2) education cost is subsidized by their large endowments.

The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.

If you are accepted to an Ivy League school, it's worth it. Your starting salary may be relatively low, but you will be on the fast track, you will be hired as an executive trainee, your mentor will be a VP who is an alumni of your alma mater, you will be a clerk for a Supreme Court justice, you will be an intern on the Capitol Hill, you will be hired by consultancies that will attach (B.S. Harvard 2022, M.S. Princeton 2024) to your resume. If you fall on the hard times, your high-power alumni network will help you to get a job. If you decide to move abroad, the Chinese and the Russians will be thrilled to hire someone with "Yale" on their resume rather than University of [State they don't know].

At the time when education is becoming a commodity, and when shady universities and fraudulent diplomas are rampant, having a globally recognized school name is more valuable than ever.

Victoria
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by triceratop »

VictoriaF wrote:The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.
Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.

The Crimson: Legacy Admit Rate at 30 Percent [2011]
The Crimson wrote:Harvard’s acceptance rate for legacies has hovered around 30 percent—more than four times the regular admission rate—in recent admissions cycles, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid William R. Fitzsimmons ’67 told The Crimson in an interview this week.

...

Brenzel also said that there is a positive correlation between alumni donations and legacy admissions. According to Brenzel, Yale fundraising suffers when fewer legacies are accepted. Still, he said, this year Yale rejected more children of top donors than it accepted.

Asked if the Admissions Office communicates with University development at Harvard, Fitzsimmons emphasized the copious amount of information he receives about each applicant. “There is no formal mechanism of communication,” he said.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by golfCaddy »

VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:36 pm
The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.

Victoria
Maybe not directly, but a lot of the class comes from legacies who are generous to the school, and typically rising to the top in a sport involves a lot of expensive private coaching, camps, and traveling teams.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by VictoriaF »

triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:43 pm
VictoriaF wrote:The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.
Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.
I don't have a citation handy. My comment is based on reading Stanford magazine when my daughter was studying there and marveling at how multi-talented the students were. The athletes were not only top athletes but also excellent students with artistic talents.

Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by triceratop »

VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:43 pm
VictoriaF wrote:The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.
Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.
I don't have a citation handy. My comment is based on reading Stanford magazine when my daughter was studying there and marveling at how multi-talented the students were. The athletes were not only top athletes but also excellent students with artistic talents.

Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
See my amended comment which includes evidentiary refutation of your central point.

Also: what "academic, creative, athletic, artistic" talent did Chelsea Clinton have?
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by VictoriaF »

triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:54 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:43 pm
VictoriaF wrote:The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.
Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.
I don't have a citation handy. My comment is based on reading Stanford magazine when my daughter was studying there and marveling at how multi-talented the students were. The athletes were not only top athletes but also excellent students with artistic talents.

Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
See my amended comment which includes evidentiary refutation of your central point.

Also: what "academic, creative, athletic, artistic" talent did Chelsea Clinton have?
Your point is that Harvard/Princeton/Yale accept 30% legacies. But that's OK, because the other 70% are the best of the best. And even the 30% of legacies are not from the bottom of the academic distribution; legacies compete with other legacies for these 30%.

I don't know the level of Chelsea's academic, creative, athletic, or artistic talents. But the environment she grew up in has provided her with unique insights. She knew much more about politics, economy, and decision making--on the global scale--than any of her peers.

Victoria
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by ks289 »

triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:54 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:43 pm
VictoriaF wrote:The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.
Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.
I don't have a citation handy. My comment is based on reading Stanford magazine when my daughter was studying there and marveling at how multi-talented the students were. The athletes were not only top athletes but also excellent students with artistic talents.

Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
See my amended comment which includes evidentiary refutation of your central point.

Also: what "academic, creative, athletic, artistic" talent did Chelsea Clinton have?
High legacy admission rates do not refute the central point, since you have not demonstrated that legacy applicants are less qualified or talented than the non-legacy applicant pool. The very brief article you cited hinted that legacy applicants are at least equally qualified. Schools may get the added bonus of more revenue and donations from the practice of favoring legacies. Granted, the impact on society is perhaps unfavorable.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by golfCaddy »

VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
This seems like a distinction without a difference. She wouldn't have had those unique experiences without being privileged and born into the right family.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by triceratop »

ks289 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:11 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:54 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:43 pm
VictoriaF wrote:The flip side is that you don't get into an Ivy League school because your parents are movers and shakers. You get into an Ivy League school if you have superior talents: academic, creative, athletic, artistic.
Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.
I don't have a citation handy. My comment is based on reading Stanford magazine when my daughter was studying there and marveling at how multi-talented the students were. The athletes were not only top athletes but also excellent students with artistic talents.

Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
See my amended comment which includes evidentiary refutation of your central point.

Also: what "academic, creative, athletic, artistic" talent did Chelsea Clinton have?
High legacy admission rates do not refute the central point, since you have not demonstrated that legacy applicants are less qualified or talented than the non-legacy applicant pool. The very brief article you cited hinted that legacy applicants are at least equally qualified. Schools may get the added bonus of more revenue and donations from the practice of favoring legacies. Granted, the impact on society is perhaps unfavorable.
Claim: Acceptance to the Ivy league is on the basis of superior talent in some area.

Refutation: Ivy League schools routinely use criteria not related to superior talent for selection. Further evidence is that alums increase admissions in expectation that this will help their child's admission case; these people are not stupid and it's unconvincing and naiive to say that they are doing so in vain and there is no effect on results. This is reflected in the positive correlation between legacy admits and donations at Yale (note: not the same as saying that there is a positive correlation between admittance and donations -- this is a correlation measured solely among the legacy class)

Notice that the Harvard admissions spokesperson cleverly avoided stating that they did not talk to university development in evaluating candidates, only stating that there was not a formal process. *wink* *wink*

The person who has not provided any proof in this discussion has been VictoriaF.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth i

Post by ks289 »

triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:29 pm
ks289 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:11 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:54 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 pm
triceratop wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:43 pm

Citation most definitely needed.

Unless you count being born into the right family a superior talent, in which case I would agree.
I don't have a citation handy. My comment is based on reading Stanford magazine when my daughter was studying there and marveling at how multi-talented the students were. The athletes were not only top athletes but also excellent students with artistic talents.

Chelsea Clinton was attending Stanford at the same time, and you may argue that she was born into the right family. But apart from her parents, Chelsea had unique experiences and skills growing up in the White House and traveling around the world with her parents. Ivy League schools want to attract unique students. And students who have studied with Chelsea have her in their network.

Victoria
See my amended comment which includes evidentiary refutation of your central point.

Also: what "academic, creative, athletic, artistic" talent did Chelsea Clinton have?
High legacy admission rates do not refute the central point, since you have not demonstrated that legacy applicants are less qualified or talented than the non-legacy applicant pool. The very brief article you cited hinted that legacy applicants are at least equally qualified. Schools may get the added bonus of more revenue and donations from the practice of favoring legacies. Granted, the impact on society is perhaps unfavorable.
Claim: Acceptance to the Ivy league is on the basis of superior talent in some area.

Refutation: Ivy League schools routinely use criteria not related to superior talent for selection. Further evidence is that alums increase admissions in expectation that this will help their child's admission case; these people are not stupid and it's unconvincing and naiive to say that they are doing so in vain and there is no effect on results. This is reflected in the positive correlation between legacy admits and donations at Yale (note: not the same as saying that there is a positive correlation between admittance and donations -- this is a correlation measured solely among the legacy class)

Notice that the Harvard admissions spokesperson cleverly avoided stating that they did not talk to university development in evaluating candidates, only stating that there was not a formal process. *wink* *wink*

The person who has not provided any proof in this discussion has been VictoriaF.
I agree that legacy status is not a superior talent. :sharebeer
If a legacy applicant is unqualified and devoid of any superior talent, then the price tag for that admission is probably millions of dollars. This really is a very minuscule number of cases which applies to both legacy and non legacy applicants.

My opinion is that legacy applicants at elite schools may on the whole be MORE qualified than non-legacy applicants because of higher socioeconomic status, greater parental involvement/guidance, access to more opportunities for enrichment, etc. Since there are far more talented applicants than slots, it is not surprising that legacy status can be used as a tie-breaker and bump up their admission rate. Admittedly, their donation history would carry some weight too.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by cheesepep »

It is only good for SOME majors, definitely not all or most. If you want to get a degree in theology or something worthless like that, then go to a community college. On a side note, I hate people who wear sweatshirts with their school logo or acronym on there. NO ONE CARES!!!
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by triceratop »

cheesepep wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:59 pm It is only good for SOME majors, definitely not all or most. If you want to get a degree in theology or something worthless like that, then go to a community college. On a side note, I hate people who wear sweatshirts with their school logo or acronym on there. NO ONE CARES!!!
A degree in theology is not worthless. A good friend of mine was enriched by a theology degree and is gainfully employed in a personally and financially rewarding field subsequent to completion of such a program at an Ivy League.

People often wear clothing items expressing some part of their identity (not always with logos). Many people find their college years formative and identity-establishing, setting up professional networks and friends and establishing a lifelong career track. It's not surprising that they use clothing the same as others do.

I myself find these people to be simpletons, but that is how I think these people might be best understood. It is really fine. I do not wear clothing with logos or insignia of any kind, especially not the brand name or logo of the clothing company.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

VictoriaF wrote:Your point is that Harvard/Princeton/Yale accept 30% legacies. But that's OK, because the other 70% are the best of the best. And even the 30% of legacies are not from the bottom of the academic distribution; legacies compete with other legacies for these 30%.
From what I understand, Yale, for example, accepts 20% of legacy applicants. That means 80% of them, many of whom might have considered themselves a mortal lock, are rejected.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/ ... -legacies/
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by dbr »

cheesepep wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:59 pm It is only good for SOME majors, definitely not all or most. If you want to get a degree in theology or something worthless like that, then go to a community college. On a side note, I hate people who wear sweatshirts with their school logo or acronym on there. NO ONE CARES!!!
I have the impression that the only people who wear clothing bearing Ivy League logos are people who never set foot on the campus, let alone actually attended.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by malabargold »

I have seen parents ring up bills in the many thousands of dollars at the Coop.

If one is not legacy, not an underrepresented minority, not a member of an underrepresented socioeconomic class, nor a
recruited athlete, the competition is for 1 of about 400
available spots, not 1600, at Harvard.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

Post by market timer »

blinx77 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:23 amWe'd probably all be better off -- likely almost as materially wealthy and a whole lot happier -- if more people at all levels and of all backgrounds kicked out for Volleyball at 2pm on some days. Seven years of ivy league training and nine years of work experience and I've had zero opportunities to leave work early for Volleyball thus far. But I sure as heck would like to sometimes. At this rate I'm going to be swimming in money before 50 but will probably have accumulated some health issues to boot. But if I asked for some volleyball time now everyone would look at me like I had two heads.
I've found that as long as you are delivering high value to the employer, you can fit things like volleyball into your schedule. At some point in your career, you should stop having to care about face time and spend the day how you want.
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Re: Ivy school education. Is it worth it?

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