Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

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Mr.BB
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Mr.BB » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:12 pm

Congratulations!
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

workoutexcite
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by workoutexcite » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:45 pm

End of the day it’s just a job. Don’t get too attached to it.

mayday23
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by mayday23 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:52 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:34 pm
He did ask me confidentially (I hope, I trust him) if I have an offer and I couldn't lie to him and told him that I did. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I've actually had another offer and 1 near offer (it was another relocation I stopped midway) since the beginning of the year!
That's a good move OP. Now current manager can go to his boss and/or HR and say they need to move quick because of a competing offer.

Good luck adn keep us posted.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:55 pm

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (career advice).

workoutexcite, Welcome!
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8foot7
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote: If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:57 pm

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote: If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.
Do you own a business?

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:22 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:34 pm
OP here.

Here's an update. I have until tomorrow 4/5 to answer the new offer. I talked to my manager about wanting a promotion/raise and he agrees wholeheartedly. He is trying to rush a promotion/raise through but neither of us have high hopes so it is likely I will be taking the offer. He did ask me confidentially (I hope, I trust him) if I have an offer and I couldn't lie to him and told him that I did. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I've actually had another offer and 1 near offer (it was another relocation I stopped midway) since the beginning of the year!

I love my current manager but he is moving to a new team and our new leadership is in question, so it's probably as good a time as any for me to find something new.

Thanks again for all the advice!
Let me add to what others have said. You have a written offer in-hand and the response is due tomorrow (4/5). Go to work early and remove every personal item from your desk. (Hopefully, you should have done this by now.)

An important point which will make you feel better about this: There is no such thing as a "confidential" conversation in a business environment. A first-level manager has the hardest job in the company - toting the company line while maintaining a good relationship with his/her direct reports.

The only way he/she can rush an offer through is to inform his management (and HR) why this raise is needed. Your manager has received guidance on how to handle your situation, which will include a plan to replace you. An intention to leave the company erases every bit of goodwill you have earned to date. Your manager is toting the company line and playing the scenario out with you as he/she's been instructed to do.

You have now been put on a short-timer list. When the new leadership comes in and staff needs to be cut, you will be at the top of the list. This is why counter-offers almost never work out in the long-term.

If they match your salary, accept the new offer regardless. You don't have to give a reason. Look forward to the opportunity to work on something new and meet new friends. The management will be different, but change (for the right reason) is a good thing.

Be sure you call the new company as soon as possible to give a verbal acceptance. Immediately follow-up with the written acceptance.
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texas lawdog
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by texas lawdog » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:23 pm

If the company where you are currently employed valued your services, it wouldn't have come to this point and they would have already found a way to keep you happy. Many have already expressed that you should take the other offer and leave. Your employer is now simply responding to your action - and there is no telling if your employer will give you just a little more to keep you where you are because of inconvenient timing, leaving a feeling of regret on both sides.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by 8foot7 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:51 am

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:57 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote: If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.
Do you own a business?
Sure do.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by anoop » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:52 am

Elsebet wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:34 pm
OP here.

Here's an update. I have until tomorrow 4/5 to answer the new offer. I talked to my manager about wanting a promotion/raise and he agrees wholeheartedly. He is trying to rush a promotion/raise through but neither of us have high hopes so it is likely I will be taking the offer. He did ask me confidentially (I hope, I trust him) if I have an offer and I couldn't lie to him and told him that I did. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I've actually had another offer and 1 near offer (it was another relocation I stopped midway) since the beginning of the year!

I love my current manager but he is moving to a new team and our new leadership is in question, so it's probably as good a time as any for me to find something new.

Thanks again for all the advice!
If you have another offer on the way and you think you might like that better, do not feel rushed to accept the current one. Most companies will usually wait for a week if you explain you are waiting on another offer in a couple of days. It’s a big decision for you and they will understand.

The only way current employers move quickly on a raise is after you have accepted an offer. They know that if you approach them before accepting the offer means you’re not sure you want to do it.

Think of salary negotiations as a car buying experience. It is never pleasant and often ruthless.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by EddyB » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:55 am

LadyGeek wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:22 pm
An intention to leave the company erases every bit of goodwill you have earned to date.

You have now been put on a short-timer list. When the new leadership comes in and staff needs to be cut, you will be at the top of the list. This is why counter-offers almost never work out in the long-term.
While a lot of what LadyGeek says makes sense to me, the portions I've quoted above just don't align at all with what I've seen among mid-career and senior professional service providers. That's the context I see, and I'm not claiming it's the same elsewhere, but while people do sometimes conduct a bad process and create ill will, many others essentially say "hey, I've got other opportunities, but I like it here; is there a conversation to be had about compensation/advancement?" and are taken up on it, to go on to continue long, positive careers with the employer. I'm just throwing this out as a counterpoint to something that seems to be expressed almost as conventional wisdom here.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by DoTheMath » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:23 pm

I don't have anything to add except to say congratulations! Either way, it sounds like you'll be much better off.

I am also struck by the stark difference between this discussion and the one about an outside offer in academia:

viewtopic.php?t=243809

They are truly two different worlds with completely different norms.

A good reminder that a person's knowledge and experience doesn't always generalize!
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by new2bogle » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:26 pm

mhadden1 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:31 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
If my MegaTech employers had done that, they would have been in a constant shambles finishing projects. Different world I guess.

But I interpret that to mean, OP needs to take the extra 20K? Congratulations, by the way. :moneybag :beer
Agreed with mhadden1, tech must be a different beast (I've only worked in the tech industry). Here, you almost always show them the counter offer when handing in your two week notice and 99% of the time you will receive a counter back (to what amount is up in the air). Other lean times, I haven't seen tech companies that like to lose employees... it's too much cost/time to train someone else.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by mayday23 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:31 pm

Agreed with EddieB above. I think it matters how to approach the situation...Huge difference between "I need you meet me at $x or i'm out of here" vs "I really love working here, but want to feel like i'm compensated appropriately in the market place."

If executed appropriately you can move up in managements eyes to a list of "flight risk - need to keep" so they keep incentivezing down the road for you to stay. That can be with salary, job roles or other non financial benefits.

As a leader, i would want my team members to come to me if they had an offer for more money. I'd rather have the opportunity to make it right now then not having a decision as they submit their 2 week notice. For everyone saying "well you should do it now" there's no way I can go to HR and tell them everyone on my team needs a $10K raise.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by jainn » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:37 pm

denovo wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:05 pm
You're weakening your position and showing your indecisiveness. Ask them to match if you want to be taken seriously.
+1

be ready to walk but they should match to keep you.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:44 pm

8foot7 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:51 am
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:57 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote: If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.
Do you own a business?
Sure do.
So how do you feel about an employee who is looking for another job on your dime?

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by N10sive » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:01 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:44 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:51 am
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:57 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote: If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.
Do you own a business?
Sure do.
So how do you feel about an employee who is looking for another job on your dime?
How do you feel that an employee feels so disgruntled to look for another job? Also it maybe "on your dime" but most use sick days/vacation days etc to look for other jobs. Its technically earned. If I was an owner and the business was successful I would wonder why people are leaving, if not for just career advancement is their a culture problem or in the OP's case he is being paid below market value. That's not how you should treat valued employees but in the end its the companies bottom line and the OP is replaceable for some other person who will take below market value salary. And in the meantime lost weeks/years of company knowledge along with months of training the new person

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by MattE » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:29 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:44 pm
They are willing to pay more because of perceived value. The OP has to deliver. Higher pay comes with higher expectations. That’s just the way it is.
And higher performance comes with higher expectations in terms of pay, and it's absolutely not true that (most) employers will elevate that amount to match the employee's performance or actual value if they think\know they can get away with not doing so. Employment is a two-way street and if the employer isn't going to take action to pay the employee what they're worth, the employee has absolutely no reason to not force them in that direction rather than just eating it with a smile. I find a lot of your comments in this topic infuriating if not borderline insulting on principle. They're certainly naive.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Elsebet » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm

OP here.

For the worries I will be put on a short-timer list for job shopping, historically my company is known for not ever laying regular employees (not counting seasonal) off in their entire history and has only fired people for gross misconduct. This is both a good and bad thing, because there are a lot of low performers that take heavy advantage of my employer's generous attitude and even abuse policies blatantly. I know things can change if new management comes in, but being laid off or fired is one area I'm not really worried about. I imagine at most it might hurt me getting promoted or moving to other teams, if anything, but I feel my work ethic and output can override a lot of that.

My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by pmelon » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:41 pm

N10sive wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:01 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:44 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:51 am
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:57 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm


I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.
Do you own a business?
Sure do.
So how do you feel about an employee who is looking for another job on your dime?
How do you feel that an employee feels so disgruntled to look for another job? Also it maybe "on your dime" but most use sick days/vacation days etc to look for other jobs. Its technically earned. If I was an owner and the business was successful I would wonder why people are leaving, if not for just career advancement is their a culture problem or in the OP's case he is being paid below market value. That's not how you should treat valued employees but in the end its the companies bottom line and the OP is replaceable for some other person who will take below market value salary. And in the meantime lost weeks/years of company knowledge along with months of training the new person

Totally agree. Also factor the cost of turnover when unhappy employees leave the company.

To the OPs question, I personally would never show my hand to my employer. The rule of thumb in my book is anything you say or do can be used against you. To Lady Geek’s point you will likely go on a RIF list in the near future.

financeidiot
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by financeidiot » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:57 pm

Way to go! Congratulations!

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Clever_Username » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:58 pm

I have a question: could one's retention offer include severance of some sort? Some sort of guarantee that they won't be released within 1-2 years, provided they agree to stay at least as long? I imagine guaranteed contracts aren't common in industry, so I don't know if this is even possible.
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Darth Xanadu » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:08 pm

Clever_Username wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:58 pm
I have a question: could one's retention offer include severance of some sort? Some sort of guarantee that they won't be released within 1-2 years, provided they agree to stay at least as long? I imagine guaranteed contracts aren't common in industry, so I don't know if this is even possible.
I would think so. I had a retention guarantee that was given to me a few years ago that included a minimum bonus amount at the end of the year, and a provision for a separation payment if I was terminated without cause prior to bonus being paid (separation payment was about 60% higher than bonus but this was due to the way the company approached calc'ing termination payments in general).

Not a guarantee of employment but a substantial payment if company terminated me.
My friends said stick to your guns, but instead I just got stuck.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by MattE » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:12 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.
It's really up to you. On one hand I agree it's definitely not a good look to renege on a job offer you've accepted and signed, but things happen and unless it's a particularly small industry where that could circle back on you or you feel it's likely you might want to pursue employment with that company in the future, the likely consequences or impact to you is probably nil. There's also the fact that your current employer was given a deadline by which they have to respond for you to act on; it's like a mortgage company or home buyer coming back a day too late after you've asked for "last, best offers" because you needed to move forward with paperwork on a certain timeline. It would be unfortunate, but it is what it is and it's not on you for the situation going sideways.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Darth Xanadu » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm

My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.
I would not recommend this, but another idea you can consider is to ask for an extension on the deadline to respond to the new company offer. They will likely (correctly) think you are shopping the offer and it would likely reflect poorly on you.

You surfaced this issue with your current employer almost a week ago and you still don't have a proposal in hand. I would probably accept the new offer, and follow through unless current employer knocks your socks off.
My friends said stick to your guns, but instead I just got stuck.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by oilrig » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:26 pm

Just a personal story to share. Twice in my career I have accepted counter offers to stay at 2 different companies. Those 2 companies never held it against me and practically begged me to stay. I eventually ended up leaving both companies, and they both tried to hire me back a year later into larger roles!

I dont say this to brag, Im just offering a different perspective. If you are a top performer and valued at your company, then I doubt they will hold it against you for trying to leave or get an increased salary.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:33 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
...My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.
Accept the new company's offer and don't look back. This is your professional reputation at stake here. You will have your current company's respect that you've followed through on what you promised.

Doing otherwise will lower their estimate of your performance ability, which is another strike against career advancement with this company.
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by MJW » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Elsebet,

What could your current employer offer that you would be satisfied with? Are you hoping to be talked into staying? It sounds like after setting all of these forces in motion the "realness" of it is messing with your head a little bit. This sort of trepidation is normal, especially if your willingness to take another job is not motivated by unhappiness or disdain for your current boss or company. I do tend to lean toward LadyGeek's counsel above, and when in doubt, why not err on the side of change and new opportunities?

Your boss may also be sincere in his effort to retain you. It's also likely that his ability to influence a favorable outcome is limited. You could always take him aside and tell him that you appreciate everything he has done for you, but between the nature of the new offer and the potential upheaval with the team you decided that it was a good time to make a change. It happens. Life will go on - for you, for your boss, and for the company.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Chan_va » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:42 pm

Not sure what industry/area of the country you are in, but here is some advice that would apply in the tech world, and maybe more broadly

1. Decide if you want to leave, or if you will stay if your current employer offers x.
2. If you decide that you will stay if your current employer offers x, Be open and upfront with your manager about your offer, and what x is.
3. Your manager will know if x is even possible. If x is possible, he/she will need to jump through hoops for you. Give your manager assurance that if he/she is able to deliver x, you are all in and committed.
4. You will likely need proof of the offer for the counter offer. Don't be offended or surprised if that's the ask.

This happens all the time. Don't worry about the company holding this against you in the long term. It's just business, and all that matters is how you perform. Don't overthink this.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Mr.BB » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:48 pm

After reading the OP's last post I keep getting that scene from The Karate Kid in my mind.
Accept new offer stand on this side of the road...you safe
Stay with your current company, other side of the road ...you safe
Stay in the middle...can't decide....you splat!
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by HueyLD » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:49 pm

I am eagerly awaiting OP’s update. I think she will make the best choice for herself.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JBTX » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:27 pm

EddyB wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:55 am
LadyGeek wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:22 pm
An intention to leave the company erases every bit of goodwill you have earned to date.

You have now been put on a short-timer list. When the new leadership comes in and staff needs to be cut, you will be at the top of the list. This is why counter-offers almost never work out in the long-term.
While a lot of what LadyGeek says makes sense to me, the portions I've quoted above just don't align at all with what I've seen among mid-career and senior professional service providers. That's the context I see, and I'm not claiming it's the same elsewhere, but while people do sometimes conduct a bad process and create ill will, many others essentially say "hey, I've got other opportunities, but I like it here; is there a conversation to be had about compensation/advancement?" and are taken up on it, to go on to continue long, positive careers with the employer. I'm just throwing this out as a counterpoint to something that seems to be expressed almost as conventional wisdom here.
I agree, as i expressed earlier. Most people I’ve ever worked with are realistic in they they know people need to make the best decision for themselves and their family. You do encounter some that take it personally and get hung up on the loyalty angle, but I think they are in minority.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by denovo » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
OP here.

For the worries I will be put on a short-timer list for job shopping, historically my company is known for not ever laying regular employees (not counting seasonal) off in their entire history and has only fired people for gross misconduct. This is both a good and bad thing, because there are a lot of low performers that take heavy advantage of my employer's generous attitude and even abuse policies blatantly. I know things can change if new management comes in, but being laid off or fired is one area I'm not really worried about. I imagine at most it might hurt me getting promoted or moving to other teams, if anything, but I feel my work ethic and output can override a lot of that.

My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.
Everyone is eagerly waiting an update. What did you choose?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

JBTX
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JBTX » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:43 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
OP here.

For the worries I will be put on a short-timer list for job shopping, historically my company is known for not ever laying regular employees (not counting seasonal) off in their entire history and has only fired people for gross misconduct. This is both a good and bad thing, because there are a lot of low performers that take heavy advantage of my employer's generous attitude and even abuse policies blatantly. I know things can change if new management comes in, but being laid off or fired is one area I'm not really worried about. I imagine at most it might hurt me getting promoted or moving to other teams, if anything, but I feel my work ethic and output can override a lot of that.

My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.
You’ve kind of got yourself in a pickle here. Does your manager know you have better offer? You want to accept the offer today, is that the deadline they gave you? If you never told them you had competitive offer, then asked for raise with no deadline, then leave before they have chance to put something together, you kind of made your current employer run around for no reason. But whatever the case now it is what it is.

I guess what is surprising to me is it seems like it is all about who gives the highest offer. Typically salary is only one consideration.

Ultimately you have to do what is best for you. Don’t rush to accept new offer unless they have given firm deadline. If your old employer comes back with a ridiculously great offer, and you want to accept it I would. Would I back out of an accepted offer if a materially better offer came along? Yes, I would, if I liked the counteroffer job better. Just realize when you do so you may have burned bridges at the new company that just gave you the offer.

This is one of the reasons why I recommended being up front and saying you had an offer.

Good luck.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by dbr » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:00 pm

I suppose a lesson here is to shop yourself effectively to your own management before you find yourself needing to "demand" a response or leave.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:03 pm

HueyLD wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:49 pm
I am eagerly awaiting OP’s update. I think she will make the best choice for herself.
Why "she"? Is that obvious from the write-up? I don't believe OP revealed the gender in the posting so far. Do people think the OP's real name is Elisabeth?

It would be very interesting if people are able to guess the gender of the writer with just few paragraphs.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by kappy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:06 pm

I've been on both sides of this and agree that you should leave. If your company makes a counteroffer, it's likely going to be less than you've been offered and you'll probably be stuck with low or no raises going forward. Taking the new job and not burning bridges at your current employer allows you to take that nice pay bump, start fresh and learn some new things, and have the option of returning down the road if it doesn't work out. I did this a couple years ago and my prior employer said that the door was open if I wanted to return. Several of my coworkers have left for another local company and a nice raise, realized it wasn't what they wanted, and came back in a year or two for the same or more money.

It's true that everyone is replaceable but, at least in my industry, someone who is a solid performer and knows "the system" in your company is way more valuable than even experienced hires who only worked at other companies. Going back if things don't work out should not be an issue.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:08 pm

N10sive wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:01 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:44 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:51 am
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:57 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:56 pm


I would hope then that you aren’t part of the majority of employers that discriminate against candidates who aren’t currently employed when they seek a position on your team.
Do you own a business?
Sure do.
So how do you feel about an employee who is looking for another job on your dime?
How do you feel that an employee feels so disgruntled to look for another job? Also it maybe "on your dime" but most use sick days/vacation days etc to look for other jobs. Its technically earned. If I was an owner and the business was successful I would wonder why people are leaving, if not for just career advancement is their a culture problem or in the OP's case he is being paid below market value. That's not how you should treat valued employees but in the end its the companies bottom line and the OP is replaceable for some other person who will take below market value salary. And in the meantime lost weeks/years of company knowledge along with months of training the new person
My experience is people can’t or won’t perform their job. They realize it and figure they better get out before we push them out. For the record, we actually pay more than market and offer awesome benefits. People want to work for us. Some find out that they can’t always perform the way they thought they could. I have many employees in double digit years of employment with us.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JBTX » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:14 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:03 pm
HueyLD wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:49 pm
I am eagerly awaiting OP’s update. I think she will make the best choice for herself.
Why "she"? Is that obvious from the write-up? I don't believe OP revealed the gender in the posting so far. Do people think the OP's real name is Elisabeth?

It would be very interesting if people are able to guess the gender of the writer with just few paragraphs.
If somebody is going to name themself on a message board with a gender specific name, I’m going to address that person accordingly.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Elsebet » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:06 pm

JBTX wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:43 pm
You’ve kind of got yourself in a pickle here. Does your manager know you have better offer? You want to accept the offer today, is that the deadline they gave you? If you never told them you had competitive offer, then asked for raise with no deadline, then leave before they have chance to put something together, you kind of made your current employer run around for no reason. But whatever the case now it is what it is.

I guess what is surprising to me is it seems like it is all about who gives the highest offer. Typically salary is only one consideration.

Ultimately you have to do what is best for you. Don’t rush to accept new offer unless they have given firm deadline. If your old employer comes back with a ridiculously great offer, and you want to accept it I would. Would I back out of an accepted offer if a materially better offer came along? Yes, I would, if I liked the counteroffer job better. Just realize when you do so you may have burned bridges at the new company that just gave you the offer.

This is one of the reasons why I recommended being up front and saying you had an offer.

Good luck.
OP here!

Thanks. To address you questions, yes my manager does know now that I have an offer - I did ask for a raise in the range of my offer and the manager said that number was not doable, but they could go $6000 less maximum. He does know that I have to give an answer today, it's 7pm and I haven't heard anything so I'm about to accept the other offer on their website.

Salary is definitely not the only consideration for me. I told this to my manager, that I wanted (and have demonstrated) that I'm ready for leadership and responsibility and the promotion was the important thing even more than salary. Things are often done very poorly at my company and it wastes time and money, I have been working to improve that and if I had some authority I could do even more, which is why I really wanted the promotion.

JBTX
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JBTX » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:15 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:06 pm
JBTX wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:43 pm
You’ve kind of got yourself in a pickle here. Does your manager know you have better offer? You want to accept the offer today, is that the deadline they gave you? If you never told them you had competitive offer, then asked for raise with no deadline, then leave before they have chance to put something together, you kind of made your current employer run around for no reason. But whatever the case now it is what it is.

I guess what is surprising to me is it seems like it is all about who gives the highest offer. Typically salary is only one consideration.

Ultimately you have to do what is best for you. Don’t rush to accept new offer unless they have given firm deadline. If your old employer comes back with a ridiculously great offer, and you want to accept it I would. Would I back out of an accepted offer if a materially better offer came along? Yes, I would, if I liked the counteroffer job better. Just realize when you do so you may have burned bridges at the new company that just gave you the offer.

This is one of the reasons why I recommended being up front and saying you had an offer.

Good luck.
OP here!

Thanks. To address you questions, yes my manager does know now that I have an offer - I did ask for a raise in the range of my offer and the manager said that number was not doable, but they could go $6000 less maximum. He does know that I have to give an answer today, it's 7pm and I haven't heard anything so I'm about to accept the other offer on their website.

Salary is definitely not the only consideration for me. I told this to my manager, that I wanted (and have demonstrated) that I'm ready for leadership and responsibility and the promotion was the important thing even more than salary. Things are often done very poorly at my company and it wastes time and money, I have been working to improve that and if I had some authority I could do even more, which is why I really wanted the promotion.
Glad to hear it worked out. It sounds like the the new company is your best bet. Best of luck!

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Mlm
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Mlm » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:24 pm

Congrats on your new job. As I moved through the ranks I found that I always had to leave my current employer in order to advance.
Reality has a way of catching up with you

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:42 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
OP here.

For the worries I will be put on a short-timer list for job shopping, historically my company is known for not ever laying regular employees (not counting seasonal) off in their entire history and has only fired people for gross misconduct. This is both a good and bad thing, because there are a lot of low performers that take heavy advantage of my employer's generous attitude and even abuse policies blatantly. I know things can change if new management comes in, but being laid off or fired is one area I'm not really worried about. I imagine at most it might hurt me getting promoted or moving to other teams, if anything, but I feel my work ethic and output can override a lot of that.

My manager's boss stopped by and said he is working on something for me, but I'm going to go ahead and accept the other offer unless I have something official in writing today. I've never been in this situation before, what happens if I accept the offer from the other company and afterwards my current company counters with something I would be satisfied with? I feel like it would be rude/unprofessional to not follow through on a job offer I accepted.
Your thinking is correct. Never ever ever accept a counter offer.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:12 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:06 pm
OP here!

Thanks. To address you questions, yes my manager does know now that I have an offer - I did ask for a raise in the range of my offer and the manager said that number was not doable, but they could go $6000 less maximum. He does know that I have to give an answer today, it's 7pm and I haven't heard anything so I'm about to accept the other offer on their website.

Salary is definitely not the only consideration for me. I told this to my manager, that I wanted (and have demonstrated) that I'm ready for leadership and responsibility and the promotion was the important thing even more than salary. Things are often done very poorly at my company and it wastes time and money, I have been working to improve that and if I had some authority I could do even more, which is why I really wanted the promotion.
Congrats! The next few weeks will be stressful, but it's a good kind of stress. Take a few days to relax and celebrate. :beer

I've left several jobs. Here are a few tips to help with your transition:

- Do you have a Flex Spending Account? If so, you are permitted to spend up to the amount you've elected for the year, regardless of your contributions to date.
- What to do with your current employer retirement plan
- What to do with your new employer retirement plan
- Health benefits - Do you or a family member depend on a mail-order pharmacy service with your current employer? If so, assume that it will take at least a month to get prescriptions at the new employer established. Stock up now.
- Close out any company credit cards now. Do it yourself and confirm a zero balance.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by NateH » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:04 am

dbr wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:37 pm
You are probably late seeking promotion and higher pay where you were. Had you done that earlier on you would know better where you stand. The process can creep at a snail's pace.

At this point you will probably be better off making the move. I agree "What will you pay me to get me to stay?" conversations are bad juju. I'm not sure what to think if they volunteer a counter offer after you give notice. For me that leaves a bad taste as well, but not everyone feels that way.
Agree with this -- should have started working with your manager months ago to document achievements and build your case that you have earned the promotion.

Hopefully useful for others in similar situations.
4X top-twenty S&P 500 prognosticator. I'd start a newsletter, but it would only have one issue per year.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Elsebet » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:51 am

NateH wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:04 am
dbr wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:37 pm
You are probably late seeking promotion and higher pay where you were. Had you done that earlier on you would know better where you stand. The process can creep at a snail's pace.

At this point you will probably be better off making the move. I agree "What will you pay me to get me to stay?" conversations are bad juju. I'm not sure what to think if they volunteer a counter offer after you give notice. For me that leaves a bad taste as well, but not everyone feels that way.
Agree with this -- should have started working with your manager months ago to document achievements and build your case that you have earned the promotion.

Hopefully useful for others in similar situations.
I agree, and I did press my case for a promotion at almost every one on one with my manager.

The issue was when I first joined this company I accepted a lower rank than I had achieved with my previous company. I did not ask for the rank structure when I joined, which was my mistake. It was kind of a whirlwind relocation offer and I was a bit naive and excited/overwhelmed by the idea of moving across the country. Plus I was not on the bogleheads forum at the time so I had no great mentors to whom I could turn to for advice. Thus I joined my current company as a level 2, whereas in my old job I was a level 3 being prepped for a promotion to level 4.

Last year my manager finally moved me to a level 3 but mostly because I hit the level 2 pay cap and if he didn't promote me I would receive no annual raise. I received no raise as part of this promotion and had a terrible raise the previous year (due to capping) even with great performance. That whole scenario left a bad taste in my mouth and I felt I was treated unfairly. Then in January of this year my previous company (in a LCOL area compared to my current HCOL area) reached out to me with an offer to come back and were willing to pay me a much higher salary and grade (and relocation). I was not in a good spot to relocate so I had to turn it down, but this increased my suspicion that I was very underpaid. Thus I decided to check out potential jobs out here and sure enough I got a much higher offer, which I accepted last evening.

I'm looking forward to something new, thanks for all the great advice here folks. I really appreciate it.

dbr
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by dbr » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:05 am

Elsebet wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:51 am
NateH wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:04 am
dbr wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:37 pm
You are probably late seeking promotion and higher pay where you were. Had you done that earlier on you would know better where you stand. The process can creep at a snail's pace.

At this point you will probably be better off making the move. I agree "What will you pay me to get me to stay?" conversations are bad juju. I'm not sure what to think if they volunteer a counter offer after you give notice. For me that leaves a bad taste as well, but not everyone feels that way.
Agree with this -- should have started working with your manager months ago to document achievements and build your case that you have earned the promotion.

Hopefully useful for others in similar situations.
I agree, and I did press my case for a promotion at almost every one on one with my manager.

The issue was when I first joined this company I accepted a lower rank than I had achieved with my previous company. I did not ask for the rank structure when I joined, which was my mistake. It was kind of a whirlwind relocation offer and I was a bit naive and excited/overwhelmed by the idea of moving across the country. Plus I was not on the bogleheads forum at the time so I had no great mentors to whom I could turn to for advice. Thus I joined my current company as a level 2, whereas in my old job I was a level 3 being prepped for a promotion to level 4.

Last year my manager finally moved me to a level 3 but mostly because I hit the level 2 pay cap and if he didn't promote me I would receive no annual raise. I received no raise as part of this promotion and had a terrible raise the previous year (due to capping) even with great performance. That whole scenario left a bad taste in my mouth and I felt I was treated unfairly. Then in January of this year my previous company (in a LCOL area compared to my current HCOL area) reached out to me with an offer to come back and were willing to pay me a much higher salary and grade (and relocation). I was not in a good spot to relocate so I had to turn it down, but this increased my suspicion that I was very underpaid. Thus I decided to check out potential jobs out here and sure enough I got a much higher offer, which I accepted last evening.

I'm looking forward to something new, thanks for all the great advice here folks. I really appreciate it.
In short you got a very disadvantageous deal from your present company which they are not fixing. You were probably doomed the day you accepted that job at that level. You will be much better off with your new offer.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by N10sive » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:20 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:08 pm
My experience is people can’t or won’t perform their job. They realize it and figure they better get out before we push them out. For the record, we actually pay more than market and offer awesome benefits. People want to work for us. Some find out that they can’t always perform the way they thought they could. I have many employees in double digit years of employment with us.
I think thats a different situation than what the OP experienced. It seems you value good employees and reward them. In your instance it would seem the person is lacking performance, skills, lost interest and therefore your view on walking the person out the door especially if they came with a offer in hand for a raise in which they are already being compensated accordingly in your mind. The OP wasn't necessarily interested in leaving however their performance wasn't being correctly compensated.

OP good luck in your new venture. I know it is hard for change but I can only imagine it will help further your career.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by gunn_show » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:29 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:51 am

I agree, and I did press my case for a promotion at almost every one on one with my manager.

The issue was when I first joined this company I accepted a lower rank than I had achieved with my previous company. I did not ask for the rank structure when I joined, which was my mistake. It was kind of a whirlwind relocation offer and I was a bit naive and excited/overwhelmed by the idea of moving across the country. Plus I was not on the bogleheads forum at the time so I had no great mentors to whom I could turn to for advice. Thus I joined my current company as a level 2, whereas in my old job I was a level 3 being prepped for a promotion to level 4.

Last year my manager finally moved me to a level 3 but mostly because I hit the level 2 pay cap and if he didn't promote me I would receive no annual raise. I received no raise as part of this promotion and had a terrible raise the previous year (due to capping) even with great performance. That whole scenario left a bad taste in my mouth and I felt I was treated unfairly. Then in January of this year my previous company (in a LCOL area compared to my current HCOL area) reached out to me with an offer to come back and were willing to pay me a much higher salary and grade (and relocation). I was not in a good spot to relocate so I had to turn it down, but this increased my suspicion that I was very underpaid. Thus I decided to check out potential jobs out here and sure enough I got a much higher offer, which I accepted last evening.

I'm looking forward to something new, thanks for all the great advice here folks. I really appreciate it.
Lot of great material and feedback in this thread, but this back-history from OP really nails it for me. You had a lot more pent up reasoning to leave that you had not shared, and you just dumped it.

You made the right move taking this other offer, and I would not accept any counter-offer at this point, period, no matter what it is (and likely if they do, it will be less anyway given this history). Time to move on. Nice pay raise and title bump, congrats, and go bust your rear to earn it and prove they made the right choice with you. Best of luck!
"I love competition. And I want to win." R. Murdoch

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by mayday23 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:38 pm

NateH wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:04 am
Agree with this -- should have started working with your manager months ago to document achievements and build your case that you have earned the promotion.

Hopefully useful for others in similar situations.
This is good in theory, but rarely works in the real world.

Employee: "I think i deserve a raise based on x,y,z and understanding the current market is at abc"
Manager: "You make some good points and are highly valued here. Let me see what I can do"

2 weeks later:
Employee: "Any update?"
Manager: "i'm still working with HR. They can really be a pain sometimes"

2 weeks later:
Employee: "Any update?"
Manager: "i'm still working with HR. They are completing an assessment of your role"

2 weeks later:
Employee: "Any update?"
Manager: "I'm sorry, we just don't have budget right now for a raise. You are a very valuable blah blah blah" or
"We can't do anything off-cycle. I promise you we'll revisit during the next performance review and make it right."
Next performance review comes along and manager tries to spin "we were able to get your the raise of 50%! Instead of a 2% raise, you'll be getting a 3% raise!!!"

This is just how corporations work.

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