Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

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Elsebet
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Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Elsebet » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:54 pm

For a few months now I have suspected that I am being underpaid and decided to do some interviews. I have received 2 offers above my current salary; the first I turned down due to having to relocate for it, but the second is local and only about a 5 more minute commute. The pay is $20k more than I am making now with a better 401k match and comparable benefits. I would say that my current company is a bit more stable, that's the only con of the new company. I am willing to accept the offer, however I would really like to stay at my current company if they were willing to give me a promotion and pay raise.

I have never done this before in my career so I am nervous, but I was thinking I should bring the offer to my current manager and ask if he could give me a promotion plus a $10,000 annual pay increase. That would still put me $10k below the other company's offer but I am willing to accept that to stay. My current company has a reputation that they never counter offer and just wave goodbye in this situation, but I have also heard that some people got raises this way. I am a top performer on my team and work hard. I currently have many projects on my plate and it would be a big burden if I do leave, so I feel like I have some bargaining power here.

I am looking for some advice on how to frame this to my manager. Do I print a copy of the other company's offer and give it to my boss? Do I just email a copy? Should I make a written request of my desire for the promotion and raise? Should I meet in person at all or just email this info? Do I show him the offer at all?

denovo
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by denovo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:05 pm

You're weakening your position and showing your indecisiveness. Ask them to match if you want to be taken seriously.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

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Pajamas
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Pajamas » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:05 pm

I would simply ask for a raise and promotion and see what happens. I would not bring up the issue of the other offer and the fact that they supposedly have a rule against counteroffers reinforces that. It also reinforces that idea that accepting a counteroffer is usually not the best idea because it affects the relationship with the employer.

It shouldn't take an offer from another company to get your current one to value you properly. It is a shame that it is so often necessary to change employers to get a significant pay increase or even what you are worth on the open market, but that's the way it is. The inertia works both ways: companies frequently keep underperforming employees rather than replacing them.

Also, there are gender differences in assertiveness in pay negotiation. Don't shortchange yourself if you are a high performing, responsible employee that the company relies on.

BeneIRA
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by BeneIRA » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:11 pm

+! to the comment from Pajamas. Approach your manager or whoever the decision maker is and spell out why you want a raise and/or a promotion. If they balk or say no, then accept the other company's offer and turn in your two weeks notice. Do not bring in the other offer because you will become public enemy #1 even if they do capitulate. What you may have to do is take this new opportunity, work there for a year or two and then come back to your company if it is truly better. Your company will probably give you what you want at that time because you will go for that higher position. If your company doesn't care about counter offers, then I wouldn't expect one anyway. Everyone is replaceable from the CEO on down. Life will go on for the company.

Before this, you have to decide what you want. Do you want to stay with the current company or would you prefer to move on? You got $20,000 more plus better benefits but you would accept $10,000 and your current benefits? If it were me, I am jumping ship and accepting that new offer. It will be even worse in six months because now you know you are underpaid.

Gleops2
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Gleops2 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:16 pm

If you DO leave, be professional and don't burn bridges.

You are not "teaching anyone a lesson"...just doing what's best for YOU, something all companies do without a moment's hesitation on the effect their decision has on employees.

Be prepared to have to leave the day you tell them.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by BogleMelon » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:21 pm

Google: "why not to accept a counter offer" and you will find a lot of articles speaking about that it is a bad idea to let your employer knows you are no longer loyal to him, and then stay.
When I discovered that I am way underpaid the market, I didn't ask for a raise, I asked for a "re evaluation". (I was making $55K at that time, while my market value was $75K to $80K). My manager responded: "HR is working on a project to see how everyone is making versus the market and I will get back to you". I waited a full year without hearing back from him, then he came back claiming "good news", that he was able to get me a full 5% raise and I am now 58K! Well I knew that I was entitled to a 3% annual raise according to the company policy in that year anyways, and that 5% is actually just 2% over the regular!
I showed genuine appreciation and thanked him (After all it is a supply and demand), then I went ahead, couple of interviews and I had a $85K offer. I gave them my notice, they tried to counter offer, and CEO himself tried that, but no! Sorry guys! I am out of here.
I believe that was the good move, didn't regret it.

Good luck!
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by flamesabers » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:24 pm

I would advise against trying to get a raise/promotion via a counteroffer for two reasons. First, your employer will permanently question your loyalty to the company when you give an ultimatum of this nature and may result in your employer overtly or subtly treating you unfavorably (assuming they don't show you the door immediately). Second, do you really want to work for a company where the only way to get a promotion/raise is to threaten to leave?

I would suggest talking to your manager in person and ask for the raise/promotion without mentioning the job offer you have. If he doesn't budge or he gives you vague assurances about the raise/promotion sometime in the future, give your two weeks notice and move on.

Mr.BB
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Mr.BB » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:26 pm

Don't bluff and be professional; do this in a civil and polite way. If there are things you need on your computer, you should make sure you have everything you need before you talk to your boss; he may just show you the door immediately afterwards.
If you go in asking for a raise, be ready to walk if they don't agree. Personally I wouldn't low ball myself. Show them the offer you received and see what happens. They may offer $15,000 instead the $10,000 your thinking about. NEVER show your hand ahead of time, but if you go down this route be ready to make a change if necessary.
Last edited by Mr.BB on Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by inbox788 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:28 pm

denovo wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:05 pm
You're weakening your position and showing your indecisiveness. Ask them to match if you want to be taken seriously.
OP should just move to the new company and get the pay raise. There's little chance the current company will match the offer, and even if they come close, the next raise will be less. That's just the nature of paying more for the few new employees over the many current employees. As long as you have skills that are relevant and you're willing to move to where the highest paying jobs are, it almost always pays to move. You can be paid what you're worth or you can be paid what you negotiate. Just be sure you don't get promoted into a dead end job where you're paid more than you're worth.

jayk238
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by jayk238 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:37 pm

Not sure about loyalty. Frankly, businesses are not about loyalty. They're not there to be your friend or hold your hand. The reality is that the workplace is about your performance and their bottom line. I would not worry about whether they would give you the side eye over this.

My recommendation is to take it one step at a time:
1. I would first write out for yourself why you deserve this raise. Forget about what the others pay. Describe in detail and break each accomplishment into its own bullet point. Whether because you are a top performer, or your professionalism, or sales or whatever you do. Make a financial argument why you deserve the raise. Maybe your performance brings x amount more money than the others- and a portion of that should go to you etc.
2. Then go to your boss and explain in detail all your successes and contributions. At the end tell them because of this you believe your fair market value is the higher salary. At this point dont point out the higher salary is from a competitor. Just say something about how you think this is fair (see above)
3. If the boss says no ask him to at least consider. Give him till end of the week(if time is a constraint then skip this step- you'll need to know how much time you have to accept the other job).
4. Ask him again to reconsider. AT this point tell him you did find another job that values your contributions and you are strongly considering that position. If he still says no then
5. you HAVE to be willing to jump. Otherwise you will be wasting your time. You need to leave for that job. Make sure its something you can do. If you will NOT leave then NEVER bring up the other offer but know that you will be at a disadvantage.
6. If he does give you the raise make sure to work harder than you are and bring in more - even a slightly bit more- dont worry about loyalty. They care about your abilities.

One thing to consider separately is whether this job is really worth it if you are undervalued. You may want to dig deeper about the competitor and make sure they dont have red flags elsewhere!

Loik098
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Loik098 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:45 pm

Pajamas wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:05 pm
I would simply ask for a raise and promotion and see what happens. I would not bring up the issue of the other offer and the fact that they supposedly have a rule against counteroffers reinforces that. It also reinforces that idea that accepting a counteroffer is usually not the best idea because it affects the relationship with the employer.

It shouldn't take an offer from another company to get your current one to value you properly. It is a shame that it is so often necessary to change employers to get a significant pay increase or even what you are worth on the open market, but that's the way it is. The inertia works both ways: companies frequently keep underperforming employees rather than replacing them.

Also, there are gender differences in assertiveness in pay negotiation. Don't shortchange yourself if you are a high performing, responsible employee that the company relies on.
Always respect your opinion....but two questions.

Given that OP has indicated a desire to stay with current company, and current company ISN'T valuing OP properly:

1) What if the current company doesn't know how or care to value employees properly, and the only way for it to know how or to care is by seeing outside offers? Does OP just bail due to perceived incompetence, even though new company might be the same way?

2) What if the current company asks to see the other offer anyway, when the OP asks for a raise with specific numbers? What should OP do?

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midareff
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by midareff » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:57 pm

About a decade and a little ago I was head hunted by another department in the same large municipal government. The difference was a full executive grade (about 8%), use of a car for commuting and any work needs plus gas (no personal use) and a couple of minor other enhancements. At the time I had been in for a promotion to that grade for almost three years so it was assuredly not going to happen where I was. The promotion was fully supported by my Division's Director and verbally by my Department's Director (you can support something and still take no action). I had been with the municipality about 22 years at that point and was going to retire at age 62 and go into a DROP program which would set my pension.

I interviewed with about 20 other people and was sure enough to respond when they asked if I had any questions for them, "I will if I am your selected candidate." Sure enough the offer came a few days later and I asked them to give me a few days, perhaps a week to think it over since I had been with the same organization for a long time and wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing for all concerned. They agreed.

Both my Division and Department Director's knew I was interviewing with the other agency ... excellent long term relationship with both. The same afternoon as the offer I advised my Divion's Director and Department Director of same, and asked if they had anything to say while I was considering it. The next morning my Department Director stopped by my office about 8 AM to advise my promotion had been approved with about a year's back pay and would I join her for lunch that day. You guessed it; "What do I need to do to keep you here?" My response, another 5% to cover not having the offered car and gas. I was advised that was doable the next day and advised it was done the day after. I gladly stayed.

My point.. You have a $20K better offer another 5 minutes commute away with a better 401 match. That's something like $77+ a day. Nearly $10 an hour.
I would recommend you do just what I did. Advise them of the offer, ask them if they have anything they would like to say while you consider it another day or two. If they think you are not worth that much to them you are totally in the wrong work place and it's time to go, and don't look back.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by mhadden1 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:28 pm

My experience matched up with the notion that it's usually easier to do better in salary by looking to other companies. The new company has already analyzed the salary necessary to fill the position and so everybody is on board already. The old company has to be convinced in some way, which might be easy or hard. Either way there may be bad feeling at the old company, no matter how unfair that is.

I would say, if the new job seems like a good fit, take it.
Oh I can't, can I? That's what they said to Thomas Edison, mighty inventor, Thomas Lindberg, mighty flyer,and Thomas Shefsky, mighty like a rose.

Jags4186
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:59 pm

Eh now having one of these situations under my belt, I would simply go to your manager, say you really like the company but you’ve received an offer that makes it impossible for you to stay at your current pay. You would like to stay but they would need to match the offer as it would be “irresponsible to my family” for me to turn this down. That’s usually a good line—especially when $20k is a huge bump.

I don’t believe anything about “company policy.” Companies do different things for different employees all the time. You’d be shocked what some people have that you have no idea of. For example, I was in sales and learned that one of my counterparts in the New England market had season tickets for the Patriots that the company paid for. No one asked me if I wanted Giants or Jets or Yankees season tickets to “entertain” customers. The only thing that is certain is that if you are a strong performer that is under or market paid they likely don’t want to lose you. If you are a marginal performer they’ll say goodbye. Don’t accept less than what the other company has offered and only do this is you are prepared to leave. Remember, it’s just business, nothing personal. You owe nothing to them. If they needed to cut budget they would dump you without a second thought if they had to.

As to the other poster who said they got a 5% raise instead of a 3% raise...my wife went through the exact same thing. Asked for a raise for 6 months and finally got them to committ to 6% when they gave everyone else 3%. It amounted to an extra $1500. A joke, but she isn’t willing to leave. If you’re not willing to leave you can’t get the bump.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by dknightd » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:03 pm

First make sure you want the other job.
Then talk to your manager, explain you thought you were being underpaid, and decided to find out by looking around.
The ideal would be to first ask your manager for a raise, before looking around, but it might be too late for that.
You quickly got two offers at higher pay (they do not need to know that one does not interest you).
Say I'd like to stay here, but, it seems silly to pass up a significant pay raise. Likely your current boss
will understand because they have done the same thing in the past.
They will either match it, or not. If not you have to give notice and move on.
The only real danger to this is if you do not like your new job, and would like to go back to your old one.
So, first make sure you want the new job.

MJW
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by MJW » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:21 pm

Elsebet,

What is it about working for your current employer that you would accept less to stay with them? When you say you current company is "more stable" than the prospective new one, what is the magnitude of difference between the two? In addition to an increase in pay, better 401(k) and better commute, would the new job also mean a step up/forward for you in your career?

Also, were you surprised by how much more the new company was willing to offer in comparison to what you were making? We don't know enough about your company to say whether they have deliberately "undervalued" you. If it is true that they typically do not counter-offer it is possible that they are comfortable with their compensation position relative to the market and have accepted that they might occasionally lose people as a cost of doing business. When a company has a defined compensation policy they usually understand the trade-offs.

I'm happy to chat over PM as well. I believe we may reside in the same general area and perhaps I can help further.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm

As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:28 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
Unfortunately for the employer, the market determines what someone’s worth is, not the employer. If you, as an employer, were paying someone $40,000/yr that other companies paid $80,000/yr for, what reason would the employee give you that he’s “adding value” to the company if the job is already being done satisfactorily? You have two choices, either pony up or hope you can find someone else at $40k to do the job.

In bad economies, the employer has all the power. In good economies, the employees even the playing field. In fact, I think in good economies you MUST be willing to jump ship because often your future salaries are based upon your current salary. If you don’t get the “bumps” when the times are good, how do you expect it to happen in a mediocre or bad job market?

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mhadden1
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by mhadden1 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:31 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
If my MegaTech employers had done that, they would have been in a constant shambles finishing projects. Different world I guess.

But I interpret that to mean, OP needs to take the extra 20K? Congratulations, by the way. :moneybag :beer
Oh I can't, can I? That's what they said to Thomas Edison, mighty inventor, Thomas Lindberg, mighty flyer,and Thomas Shefsky, mighty like a rose.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Hillview » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:32 pm

Ask for the 20k raise give your reasons why you deserve this. Do not mention the other offer. If you don't get the raise give your notice. Most managers should not give you a raise if you essentially threaten them with another offer.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:34 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:28 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
Unfortunately for the employer, the market determines what someone’s worth is, not the employer. If you, as an employer, were paying someone $40,000/yr that other companies paid $80,000/yr for, what reason would the employee give you that he’s “adding value” to the company if the job is already being done satisfactorily? You have two choices, either pony up or hope you can find someone else at $40k to do the job.

In bad economies, the employer has all the power. In good economies, the employees even the playing field. In fact, I think in good economies you MUST be willing to jump ship because often your future salaries are based upon your current salary. If you don’t get the “bumps” when the times are good, how do you expect it to happen in a mediocre or bad job market?
If they aren’t doing their part to earn market wages, they don’t earn market wages. We don’t know if the OP is the low man on the totem pole.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by stoptothink » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:36 pm

This is a tricky situation. My wife has been in it about half a dozen times in the past year because she is such a sales rock star that she is hounded constantly by competitors. Without getting too much into the details of her situation, I will echo the sentiment that it is probably a waste of time even discussing the other offer; better off meeting with your direct supervisor and discussing why you deserve a raise. Also, be fully prepared to walk if you are seriously considering the other offer.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:37 pm

mhadden1 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:31 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
If my MegaTech employers had done that, they would have been in a constant shambles finishing projects. Different world I guess.

But I interpret that to mean, OP needs to take the extra 20K? Congratulations, by the way. :moneybag :beer
I’ve fired a lot of people...and we still excelled. Try starting a business and working with people that don’t add value. You won’t be around long.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:40 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:34 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:28 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
Unfortunately for the employer, the market determines what someone’s worth is, not the employer. If you, as an employer, were paying someone $40,000/yr that other companies paid $80,000/yr for, what reason would the employee give you that he’s “adding value” to the company if the job is already being done satisfactorily? You have two choices, either pony up or hope you can find someone else at $40k to do the job.

In bad economies, the employer has all the power. In good economies, the employees even the playing field. In fact, I think in good economies you MUST be willing to jump ship because often your future salaries are based upon your current salary. If you don’t get the “bumps” when the times are good, how do you expect it to happen in a mediocre or bad job market?
If they aren’t doing their part to earn market wages, they don’t earn market wages. We don’t know if the OP is the low man on the totem pole.
We know he’s worth $20k more to someone else. Many employers think they pay “market wages” when they don’t. It’s a dance—employers want to pay the least in payroll to achieve desired results and employees want to earn the most money they can for a given position.

I received a $21k raise at my prior job—going from $69k to $90k—by getting an identical position at another company and asking them to match it. I knew I was underpaid because HR was sloppy and left payroll out on their desk one day and there was everyones salaries. The 6 people in my department were all making between $85k and $115k...and me making $69k. The difference was I was promoted into my position, everyone else was hired into the position. I’m sure my employer thought they were being great because I was getting 6-10% raises every year when in reality when I was promoted into my position when the prior person left they cut $20k from payroll.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:44 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:40 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:34 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:28 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
Unfortunately for the employer, the market determines what someone’s worth is, not the employer. If you, as an employer, were paying someone $40,000/yr that other companies paid $80,000/yr for, what reason would the employee give you that he’s “adding value” to the company if the job is already being done satisfactorily? You have two choices, either pony up or hope you can find someone else at $40k to do the job.

In bad economies, the employer has all the power. In good economies, the employees even the playing field. In fact, I think in good economies you MUST be willing to jump ship because often your future salaries are based upon your current salary. If you don’t get the “bumps” when the times are good, how do you expect it to happen in a mediocre or bad job market?
If they aren’t doing their part to earn market wages, they don’t earn market wages. We don’t know if the OP is the low man on the totem pole.
We know he’s worth $20k more to someone else. Many employers think they pay “market wages” when they don’t. It’s a dance—employers want to pay the least in payroll to achieve desired results and employees want to earn the most money they can for a given position.

I received a $21k raise at my prior job—going from $69k to $90k—by getting an identical position at another company and asking them to match it. I knew I was underpaid because HR was sloppy and left payroll out on their desk one day and there was everyones salaries. The 6 people in my department were all making between $85k and $115k...and me making $69k. The difference was I was promoted into my position, everyone else was hired into the position. I’m sure my employer thought they were being great because I was getting 6-10% raises every year when in reality when I was promoted into my position when the prior person left they cut $20k from payroll.
They are willing to pay more because of perceived value. The OP has to deliver. Higher pay comes with higher expectations. That’s just the way it is.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JoeRetire » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:54 pm
I have never done this before in my career so I am nervous, but I was thinking I should bring the offer to my current manager and ask if he could give me a promotion plus a $10,000 annual pay increase. That would still put me $10k below the other company's offer but I am willing to accept that to stay. My current company has a reputation that they never counter offer and just wave goodbye in this situation, but I have also heard that some people got raises this way.
If you really do want to stay, then I would just tell your boss that you feel that you deserve a raise and a promotion. Then explain why, and how this would add value to the company. I wouldn't bring up your other offer.

As a long time hiring manager, in my later years I never counter-offered in an attempt to keep someone from leaving. Seeking a counter tells the company that you are ready and willing to leave for more money. And in my experience, once people get that in mind, they won't stay long even if you do give them more money.

I know that I was always able to leave for more. It didn't matter what I was paid - I could have always gotten more. You need to get to a point where you are making enough. If that isn't with this company, then leave to go to the company where you think you will be paid sufficiently.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by mhadden1 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:33 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:37 pm
mhadden1 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:31 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
If my MegaTech employers had done that, they would have been in a constant shambles finishing projects. Different world I guess.

But I interpret that to mean, OP needs to take the extra 20K? Congratulations, by the way. :moneybag :beer
I’ve fired a lot of people...and we still excelled. Try starting a business and working with people that don’t add value. You won’t be around long.
I never started a business. I worked for MegaTech - they employed extremely clever people who were always in demand at other MegaTechs. Of course this waxed and waned with sour business conditions and good ones and this and that. :beer
Oh I can't, can I? That's what they said to Thomas Edison, mighty inventor, Thomas Lindberg, mighty flyer,and Thomas Shefsky, mighty like a rose.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:41 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:44 pm
They are willing to pay more because of perceived value. The OP has to deliver. Higher pay comes with higher expectations. That’s just the way it is.
They are willing to pay more because that is the prevailing pay for the position they are wanting to fill. Assuming it is a straight lateral move, he may not need to step up his game at all. Again, if one is truly underpaid they may not need to do anything extra to earn more money, simply find someone willing to pay the prevailing rate.

I can tell you my performance changed 0 when I got my raise. I was already doing my best and I was taking no new responsibilities. I was simply underpaid because of how I ended up in the position.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Nestegg_User » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:53 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:34 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:28 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
Unfortunately for the employer, the market determines what someone’s worth is, not the employer. If you, as an employer, were paying someone $40,000/yr that other companies paid $80,000/yr for, what reason would the employee give you that he’s “adding value” to the company if the job is already being done satisfactorily? You have two choices, either pony up or hope you can find someone else at $40k to do the job.

In bad economies, the employer has all the power. In good economies, the employees even the playing field. In fact, I think in good economies you MUST be willing to jump ship because often your future salaries are based upon your current salary. If you don’t get the “bumps” when the times are good, how do you expect it to happen in a mediocre or bad job market?
If they aren’t doing their part to earn market wages, they don’t earn market wages. We don’t know if the OP is the low man on the totem pole.
The OP, in the original post, mentioned that they were the top performer ... so I think we have that (unless there’s something that we don’t know... )


In almost ALL cases, once you’ve done a counter, you’re forever targeted...you will have a reputation, despite that the company underpays, and may find themselves first out when times get tough _high performer or not.
once you do that, if you decide to stay (not advised) you need to seriously cultivate a network WHEN not if it happens that you get terminated, they likely will have long memories even with different management.

personally, I wouldn’t even mention any other offer... it already would signal that you weren’t “loyal” and a perception that you might not stay and therefore some critical opportunities might not come your way. You need to show WHY you should be brought up to market; if they don’t quickly do it (especially with the clock ticking on the other offer... make SURE you would want that job) then immediately accept the other offer.... get acceptance IN WRITING...and put in your notice ( it might be immediate so be prepared, getting all material off your computer and your office/cube, etc).

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Iliketoridemybike » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:13 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:41 pm
Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:44 pm
They are willing to pay more because of perceived value. The OP has to deliver. Higher pay comes with higher expectations. That’s just the way it is.
They are willing to pay more because that is the prevailing pay for the position they are wanting to fill. Assuming it is a straight lateral move, he may not need to step up his game at all. Again, if one is truly underpaid they may not need to do anything extra to earn more money, simply find someone willing to pay the prevailing rate.

I can tell you my performance changed 0 when I got my raise. I was already doing my best and I was taking no new responsibilities. I was simply underpaid because of how I ended up in the position.
Good for you. You delivered.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by maroon » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:19 pm

I got a job offer last year, informed my boss, and my boss offered me both a promotion and a pay raise to stay. So I happily stayed and I'm not looking elsewhere. (I was shocked that my boss could push though the paperwork in ~2 days. I had a promotion and pay raise effective the next pay period.)

I think the results of such a gambit depend upon the value of the employee. I'm thinking Elsebet would get a positive outcome from asking. Also, I learned that when the higher-ups want something, they can make it happen quickly.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Nestegg_User » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:42 pm

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by maroon » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:11 pm

delete
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by 123 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:20 pm

If the other company's offer is acceptable to you I would tell you be businesslike and accept it. Give notice to your current employer. The ball is then in their court. If they ask why you're leaving you could say that you're leaving for a promotion and a higher salary (without disclosing the salary offered). The ball is then in your current employer's court to either match or exceed the offer pretty fast or else you're out the door. I wouldn't stay with the current employer unless they better the outside offer by 10% or more. You know that in a year you could be back in the same old underpaid/under-recognized if you elect to stay with the current employer even if they better the outside offer.
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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Murgatroyd » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:09 am

OP, here’s what’s unsaid in the heretofore responses; your intuition of being underpaid led you to the job search and also perhaps the trepidation in broaching your offer with the boss. Let’s start there. It could simply be you are undervalued where you are regardless of your belief in your value and even counter to what your previous annual reviews say. I’m not suggesting you could be a below average worker, this is just the way humans evaluate each other.

My advice would be to assess the situation before making the resign or increase request. Here’s an incomplete list of pros and cons (other factors probably apply but you’ll get my point):
Pro asking for increase:
Good relationship with your boss and his/her boss,
Growing company over 5% including growing department

Cons:
Relationships “business-like”
Stagnant or slow growth, under 3%
Salary decision maker(s) see themselves as tough negotiators or great at cost control.

And remember, company policies are there to protect the company, not to promote fairness. The policy you referenced is an excuse for saying no.

All the best on your decisions.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Elsebet » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:11 pm

OP here.

Thanks all for your replies, I read and appreciate every one. Without hinting that I have a job offer, I requested a promotion and raise to match the salary offered by the competing company. In my request I detailed all of the efficiency/quality gains our team has had due to my automation & self-service efforts and I emphasized how I want to stay with the company and will work hard to lead our team into the future. What kind of action I receive from my current company will decide whether or not I take the competing offer.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Quantumfizz » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:14 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:54 pm
For a few months now I have suspected that I am being underpaid and decided to do some interviews. I have received 2 offers above my current salary; the first I turned down due to having to relocate for it, but the second is local and only about a 5 more minute commute. The pay is $20k more than I am making now with a better 401k match and comparable benefits. I would say that my current company is a bit more stable, that's the only con of the new company. I am willing to accept the offer, however I would really like to stay at my current company if they were willing to give me a promotion and pay raise.

I have never done this before in my career so I am nervous, but I was thinking I should bring the offer to my current manager and ask if he could give me a promotion plus a $10,000 annual pay increase. That would still put me $10k below the other company's offer but I am willing to accept that to stay. My current company has a reputation that they never counter offer and just wave goodbye in this situation, but I have also heard that some people got raises this way. I am a top performer on my team and work hard. I currently have many projects on my plate and it would be a big burden if I do leave, so I feel like I have some bargaining power here.

I am looking for some advice on how to frame this to my manager. Do I print a copy of the other company's offer and give it to my boss? Do I just email a copy? Should I make a written request of my desire for the promotion and raise? Should I meet in person at all or just email this info? Do I show him the offer at all?
Take the 20k and leave. No matter how many projects you have going on, you are immediately replaceable at all times; don't let anyone tell you differently. Plus, the standard 3% a year on base + 20k will be a lot better and would take much longer to make up the difference at your current company. Money always talks - if the hours/commute/etc. are fairly similar, take the 20k any day. If you need to make significant lifestyle changes to get the higher offer - certainly a different discussion, but that is not what this sounds like.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by dbr » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:37 pm

You are probably late seeking promotion and higher pay where you were. Had you done that earlier on you would know better where you stand. The process can creep at a snail's pace.

At this point you will probably be better off making the move. I agree "What will you pay me to get me to stay?" conversations are bad juju. I'm not sure what to think if they volunteer a counter offer after you give notice. For me that leaves a bad taste as well, but not everyone feels that way.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by GottaGetThisGoing » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:49 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:54 pm

I am looking for some advice on how to frame this to my manager. Do I print a copy of the other company's offer and give it to my boss? Do I just email a copy? Should I make a written request of my desire for the promotion and raise? Should I meet in person at all or just email this info? Do I show him the offer at all?
Here's what I've done in the past. I schedule a time to talk with my supervisor about my career and compensation path.

In that conversation, I say that I like my job and I really enjoy the people I work with, and I think my market rate is higher. I don't want to leave this job - but to verify my market rate, I started talking with other companies to find out what my worth is in the market.

I'd like to stay and I'd like my employer to raise my salary by $25k. I would tell him you appreciate his support and everything the company has done. I would tell him I need an answer within 1 week or I'll have to start looking for work outside the company.

It's quite likely the won't ask you for a copy of the offer letter. If they do, show it to them.

In my opinion it's important that I show my employer I don't want to leave them - but I know I'm worth more and want them to pay me what I'm worth.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by trirod » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:18 pm

Iliketoridemybike wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm
As an employer, if you approached me with valid reasons for a raise/promotion, I would listen, but those reasons would have to be based on did you add value to the company. So did you make the company better?
If I also found out you were seeking a job while still employed, I would have helped you clean out your desk.
I just work on the assumption that all of my employees are constantly looking for another job so it's my job to make them remain my employee by making this the best possible place to work for them - not just with compensation but everything else that a career entails. Anybody who is on LinkedIn is bombarded with job openings every day so it would be naïve to assume that most employees are not at least passively on the look-out for a better opportunity.

I actually handed in my notice to my current employer about 15 or 16 years ago - not because of compensation, but because of the lack of interesting project opportunities I was being given. I was fully intending to jump ship, but they persuaded me to stay (not with a raise) and this month I just had my 20 year anniversary with them, having had a pretty successful career here. I don't think that was ever seen as a lack of loyalty, just an employee trying to do what was best for them.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JBTX » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:57 pm

I’ve worked at multiple companies, most of them larger ones, and I really don’t think just going in and asking for a raise and a promotion is going to be fruitful. That isn’t they way large organizations work. They are constrained by company compensation policies and comparative pay metrics, discrimination and equity issues, etc and typically go through a very deliberate process and need multiple levels of approval up the chain.

It might work with a smaller company, but only if you are perceived as highly valued and that there is a risk they might lose you.

However, it isn’t uncommon for employees to get job offers, and then parlay them into raises. As a manager, I did at at least twice for highly valued employees who had other job offers. Now depending on how you are valued, the company’s values on such situations it may be possible for the company to view you as disloyal. I’ve never really encountered that, most people I have worked with understand people are going to do what is in their best interest.

If you choose to present your outside offer, I’d do it in a very respectful way, reiterate how much you like working there, etc. If you had a $20k higher offer I would just immediate fold and say you’d take $10k. Don’t throw out a number and just say you’d appreciate whatever they can do and evaluate their counter. Of course don’t do any of this unless you are fully prepared to leave with the new job, and I’d make sure that new offer is in writing. If it doesn’t work out do everything you can to leave on good terms.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by denovo » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:02 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:11 pm
OP here.

Thanks all for your replies, I read and appreciate every one. Without hinting that I have a job offer, I requested a promotion and raise to match the salary offered by the competing company. In my request I detailed all of the efficiency/quality gains our team has had due to my automation & self-service efforts and I emphasized how I want to stay with the company and will work hard to lead our team into the future. What kind of action I receive from my current company will decide whether or not I take the competing offer.
Keep us updated.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by JoeRetire » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:04 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:11 pm
Thanks all for your replies, I read and appreciate every one. Without hinting that I have a job offer, I requested a promotion and raise to match the salary offered by the competing company. In my request I detailed all of the efficiency/quality gains our team has had due to my automation & self-service efforts and I emphasized how I want to stay with the company and will work hard to lead our team into the future. What kind of action I receive from my current company will decide whether or not I take the competing offer.
That's a good way to handle it.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Mr.BB » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:07 pm

That is well thought out way to handle it.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Pajamas » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:35 pm

Loik098 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:45 pm
Given that OP has indicated a desire to stay with current company, and current company ISN'T valuing OP properly:

1) What if the current company doesn't know how or care to value employees properly, and the only way for it to know how or to care is by seeing outside offers? Does OP just bail due to perceived incompetence, even though new company might be the same way?
There is always some risk in moving to a new job. The potential reward needs to be worth it.

The problem with using an outside offer to get a raise is that you are now viewed as someone who is unhappy and will probably leave soon anyway. Plus, you probably are unhappy. A pay raise won't change the basic problem, that the company doesn't value employees properly and all that goes along with that. Read this and many other similar discussions:

http://www.addisongroup.com/blog/the-da ... ter-offer/

https://www.google.com/search?q=risks+o ... er%20offer

If you are a manager, do you want to keep an employee in that situation? If nothing else, it will cause the other employees to be resentful and want a raise, too.
2) What if the current company asks to see the other offer anyway, when the OP asks for a raise with specific numbers? What should OP do?
That's why I say not to mention a counteroffer at all. Any raise should be based on what the employee is worth and salaries elsewhere. There are other sources of salary information such as recruiters and Glassdoor. A single offer is not really good evidence. Plus, if a company hires new employees on a regular basis, they know what the range is.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by MJW » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:48 pm

trirod wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:18 pm
I just work on the assumption that all of my employees are constantly looking for another job so it's my job to make them remain my employee by making this the best possible place to work for them - not just with compensation but everything else that a career entails. Anybody who is on LinkedIn is bombarded with job openings every day so it would be naïve to assume that most employees are not at least passively on the look-out for a better opportunity.
Yes - If I'm an employer I am going to assume that my employees' first loyalty is to themselves and their own career. Why should it be any other way? As an employer in most states I have the power to kick them to the curb for any (legal) reason without advance notification. I can tell them that today is their last day and they must immediately pack up their belongings and leave. No saying goodbye to colleagues, either. Yet if they choose to leave me I expect a minimum of two weeks' notice as a professional courtesy. I hold most of the cards. The only leverage they have "over" me is the ability to leave when I would prefer that they stay. Even then, unless they're in a highly unique position I should expect to replace them in relatively short order. Maybe the next person isn't as skilled or bright, but will I know the difference?

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by tampaite » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:44 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:54 pm
The pay is $20k more than I am making now with a better 401k match and comparable benefits. I would say that my current company is a bit more stable, that's the only con of the new company. I am willing to accept the offer, however I would really like to stay at my current company if they were willing to give me a promotion and pay raise.
Take the new job and move on. Don't even initiate any discussion.

I saw your update. I hope you requested during your performance appraisal cycle otherwise its a clear indication, you are itching to move on.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by AllMostThere » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:43 pm

I would agree with others, do not take the offer to current employer. Take the new job and the pay increase. Even if current employer offers mo money, do not take it. It's time to leave. DO NOT burn any bridges, just state that you are looking for additional growth opportunities and new employer is a good fit. Leaving on good terms also leaves the door open for future return, should the opportunity arises. In my current mega corp, I have seen many leave and come back 1-3 years later for promotions and obviously mo money! The future is open, get going.

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Elsebet » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:34 pm

OP here.

Here's an update. I have until tomorrow 4/5 to answer the new offer. I talked to my manager about wanting a promotion/raise and he agrees wholeheartedly. He is trying to rush a promotion/raise through but neither of us have high hopes so it is likely I will be taking the offer. He did ask me confidentially (I hope, I trust him) if I have an offer and I couldn't lie to him and told him that I did. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I've actually had another offer and 1 near offer (it was another relocation I stopped midway) since the beginning of the year!

I love my current manager but he is moving to a new team and our new leadership is in question, so it's probably as good a time as any for me to find something new.

Thanks again for all the advice!

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Re: Asking for a raise/promotion with another offer in hand

Post by Pajamas » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:04 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:34 pm
OP here.

Here's an update. I have until tomorrow 4/5 to answer the new offer. I talked to my manager about wanting a promotion/raise and he agrees wholeheartedly. He is trying to rush a promotion/raise through but neither of us have high hopes so it is likely I will be taking the offer. He did ask me confidentially (I hope, I trust him) if I have an offer and I couldn't lie to him and told him that I did. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I've actually had another offer and 1 near offer (it was another relocation I stopped midway) since the beginning of the year!

I love my current manager but he is moving to a new team and our new leadership is in question, so it's probably as good a time as any for me to find something new.

Thanks again for all the advice!
Congratulations and good luck with the new job! :beer :moneybag

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