Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

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lthenderson
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Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by lthenderson »

My spouse and I have a will and medical directive with power of attorney listed. Most of our retirement assets are with Vanguard and self directed but I do have an old account through Ameriprise and continue to have a yearly checkup meeting with a financial adviser there. During our annual meeting yesterday, he mentioned that Ameriprise now has a power of attorney form for my accounts with them that he thought would supersede any previous power of attorney documents I have in my will and asked whom I wished to name as my power of attorney. For the time being, I declined to name someone.

Can anyone think of a benefit to naming a power of attorney for my account at Ameriprise that possibly supersedes the power of attorney listed in my will? If I put the same person I have in my will listed as a my power attorney for my Ameriprise account specifically, I don't see any harm other than if I ever change my power of attorney, I have to now remember to do it both places.

Thoughts?
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cheese_breath
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by cheese_breath »

I wasn't aware that you could have a power of attorney in your will. I thought all POAs ended with your death.

In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
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dbr
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

You might want to go back to your attorney and make sure all of your various assignments are compatible with what you want. I also am not aware that there is a power of attorney in a will. While you are alive there can be multiple powers of attorney applying to different things. A health care POA is not a POA for financial affairs. Many institutions insist on their own POA form. After you have died there can be beneficiaries (heirs) of a will and an executor who manages the estate. There can also be beneficiaries assigned to accounts as POD/TOD, and those do take precedence over a will. It is possible he is asking you to be sure your beneficiary designations are up to date if you have any. You should not ignore this as the last thing you want is to have the wrong person inherit your assets and it can be that your will does not designate what is going to happen.
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dm200
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dm200 »

cheese_breath wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 am I wasn't aware that you could have a power of attorney in your will. I thought all POAs ended with your death.
In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
My understanding as well.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

I have no idea what you are referring to. There is no such thing as a power-of-attorney in a will. I would suspect he is talking about designating a beneficiary on your account which would enable the account to pass directly to a beneficiary rather than pass by virtue of your will as a probate asset.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by rcarnes1 »

Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
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Leesbro63
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

rcarnes1 makes a good point. Most financial institutions require their own power of attorney form to be executed and approved. A general power of attorney COULD be forced to work in a dire situation, and is still an important document to have. But if you have specific accounts with good odds of requiring action by a POA, it's best to have this set up with the financial institution ahead of time.
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

I'm guessing OP had estate documents drawn up by an attorney that included both a will (which takes effect after you die) and POA documents (which are in effect while you are still living). Maybe a health care POA, too.


In theory, if you have a properly executed POA document, you could take it to the bank or Vanguard or Ameriprise or BOA or anywhere else and they would accept and honor it. In practice, many financial institutions will only accept the special special form that their special special attorneys have drawn up for them, and they won't honor what you and your attorney did. And you often don't know this someone is unable to act for herself and her POA shows up with the form the family lawyer drafted.

So if Ameriprise says they will only honor their own form, you could take it up with their management and their CEO and your state's licensing board and the SEC and anyone else you want and fight them to the death, or you could fill out their form.
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dm200
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dm200 »

As best I understand, I don't think one valid POA supersedes another valid POA.

You might end up with more than one POA - maybe or maybe not a good idea. If both are valid for a particular institution - both woulld work and it might be whoever gets there first.
Where the supersedes issue may come into play is that one (later) POA may revoke all prior ones.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by BolderBoy »

rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
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dm200
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dm200 »

BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
In many states (check yours) including my own state of Virginia, financial institutions can no longer arbitrarily reject such POAs.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by 2015 »

BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

There is still the issue of POD/TOD, which does supersede a will and applies after death but not before. It is very logical the advisor could be asking about this beneficiary procedure. I don't think power of attorney is what the discussion is, though apparently that was the term used.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

2015 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm
BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.

When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

I have a valid POA for all of my elderly parents brokerage accounts. I used each brokerage’s own forms, and requested a letter of acknowledgment. Although I generally use online access to rebalance their accounts and get tax data, ive needed human help on occasion. Because I jumped through their hoops ahead of time, there has never been a problem. I also saved their letters of acknowledgment in the event that, someday, there does become a question. Especially if it should happen after my parents might become incapacitated.

POA is not a big deal. Jump through the hoops, document everything and there should be no problems. Oh, one other thing: document any and all transaction that you do as POA and make a note of why you did it. It’s not impossible that a disgruntled family member might, before or after the death of the account owner, question a POA’s actions.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm


When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Right. "Put yourself on . . . an account" isn't a thing. The considerations here are important enough one should be very clear exactly what has been done. I am "on" a person's account that I help with personal financial management. That actually means that the bank had him execute the durable power of attorney form for our state with the applicability of the POA specifically limited, checked off, to his checking account at that bank and nothing else. That is what they require for a person to hold POA on that account. I have a joint checking account (JWROS) with my spouse, and that is an entirely different thing. Brokerage accounts and checking accounts may not operate exactly the same either.

Also, with respect to the above mention of considerations, when the individual for whom I hold POA wanted to qualify for various forms of public support, every transaction I had made for more than a year had to be documented in detail with receipts and explanation.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Good Listener »

Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm
2015 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm
BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.

When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
So then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

I believe that the donor, not the financial institution, is responsible to file gift tax returns if any individual is gifted more than the annual exclusion amount, currently $15,000.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

Good Listener wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm
2015 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm
BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.

When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
So then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?
Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

Then I stand corrected!
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by FIREchief »

I'll add one more thought (because I generally always point this out in these types of threads). If you have a POA that has been drafted by your attorney, you do not have to wait until becoming incapacitated to find out if your brokerage will honor it. Just give them a copy now and ask them to have their legal team review it. They can archive a copy, along with their lawyer's concurrence that it will be honored when needed. I have done this first part successfully. I'm still of somewhat sound mind, so we aren't 100% certain it will be honored, but we aren't really 100% certain about anything. Has anybody else done this or am I the lone wolf?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Point »

POA end with heartbeat. Trust executor would deal with items post death.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

Point wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:49 pm POA end with heartbeat. Trust executor would deal with items post death.
Trust executor? What’s that?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by tfb »

lthenderson wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:50 am During our annual meeting yesterday, he mentioned that Ameriprise now has a power of attorney form for my accounts with them that he thought would supersede any previous power of attorney documents I have in my will and asked whom I wished to name as my power of attorney.
I think he's talking about a Transfer On Death (TOD) designation, i.e. who will get the money after you die, not a power of attorney, who will act on your behalf. TOD on your account does supersede whatever you say in your will. The benefit of doing a TOD is the transfer will happen outside probate. The designated person doesn't have to wait as long.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm


Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
Gill, to forestall possible confusion, what exactly does the language "adding (a person) to an account" mean?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:21 pm
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm


Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
Gill, to forestall possible confusion, what exactly does the language "adding (a person) to an account" mean?
I interpret it to mean making the other person a joint tenant with right of survivorship.
Gill
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:24 pm
dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:21 pm
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm


Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
Gill, to forestall possible confusion, what exactly does the language "adding (a person) to an account" mean?
I interpret it to mean making the other person a joint tenant with right of survivorship.
Gill
Thanks. I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS, compared to giving another person power of attorney, compared to specifying a person a beneficiary TOD, compared to a person who is a custodian either under UTMA or based on court order due to incompetence of the principal, compared to being a trustee of a trust, compared to being an executor of an estate or an heir to an estate, etc. My point is that there is a laundry list of possible recognized legal procedures and there is colloquial banter that leaves everyone completely confused at to what is what, the parties to the issue being the most confused of all sometimes.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:48 pm
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:24 pm
dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:21 pm
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm


Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
Gill, to forestall possible confusion, what exactly does the language "adding (a person) to an account" mean?
I interpret it to mean making the other person a joint tenant with right of survivorship.
Gill
Thanks. I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS, compared to giving another person power of attorney, compared to specifying a person a beneficiary TOD, compared to a person who is a custodian either under UTMA or based on court order due to incompetence of the principal, compared to being a trustee of a trust, compared to being an executor of an estate or an heir to an estate, etc. My point is that there is a laundry list of possible recognized legal procedures and there is colloquial banter that leaves everyone completely confused at to what is what, the parties to the issue being the most confused of all sometimes.
Well said and, unfortunately, very true.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by BolderBoy »

dm200 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:04 pm
BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
In many states (check yours) including my own state of Virginia, financial institutions can no longer arbitrarily reject such POAs.
This was in Virginia about 7 years ago. Glad to hear they've been stepped on about it.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by lthenderson »

dm200 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:36 am
cheese_breath wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 am I wasn't aware that you could have a power of attorney in your will. I thought all POAs ended with your death.
In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
My understanding as well.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. The medical directive has a power of attorney assigned should we both become incapacitated. The POA for our Ameriprise asset is also for the same situation.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by lthenderson »

NotWhoYouThink wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:11 am I'm guessing OP had estate documents drawn up by an attorney that included both a will (which takes effect after you die) and POA documents (which are in effect while you are still living). Maybe a health care POA, too.


In theory, if you have a properly executed POA document, you could take it to the bank or Vanguard or Ameriprise or BOA or anywhere else and they would accept and honor it. In practice, many financial institutions will only accept the special special form that their special special attorneys have drawn up for them, and they won't honor what you and your attorney did. And you often don't know this someone is unable to act for herself and her POA shows up with the form the family lawyer drafted.

So if Ameriprise says they will only honor their own form, you could take it up with their management and their CEO and your state's licensing board and the SEC and anyone else you want and fight them to the death, or you could fill out their form.
This is exactly what I meant to say but didn't quite spit it out.

You bring up an excellent point about whether or not Ameriprise will recognize our POA document. My financial adviser did make some sort of comment that assigning a POA through Ameriprise would be beneficial if he (my financial adviser) wasn't around anymore or out of the office, i.e. whomever wouldn't know our POA visually. I guess that it the question I need to ask the next time I go in there is if they would recognize my lawyer drafted POA.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by lthenderson »

BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks for this info. I didn't realize this having never been a POA myself or really having gone through a situation where someone close to me was one.
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lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by lthenderson »

Thanks everyone for their replies. Sorry I had to step away yesterday and didn't get a chance to respond sooner.

Yes I meant POA if I become medically incapacitated and is a separate document from my will. I had all drafted up at the same time.

I guess from reading everything, the questions I really need to ask the Ameriprise financial adviser the next time I see him are:
1. Does this supersede the POA I already have designated?
2. Will Ameriprise recognize my POA document I already have drawn up?

It doesn't sound like anyone has a concern with doing this (the overall tone is that this may/is beneficial) unless it does supersede my original POA and sometime in the future I change that person and forget to update the Ameriprise form. That may be another question for my financial adviser.
dbr
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

lthenderson wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:57 am Thanks everyone for their replies. Sorry I had to step away yesterday and didn't get a chance to respond sooner.

Yes I meant POA if I become medically incapacitated and is a separate document from my will. I had all drafted up at the same time.

I guess from reading everything, the questions I really need to ask the Ameriprise financial adviser the next time I see him are:
1. Does this supersede the POA I already have designated?
2. Will Ameriprise recognize my POA document I already have drawn up?

It doesn't sound like anyone has a concern with doing this (the overall tone is that this may/is beneficial) unless it does supersede my original POA and sometime in the future I change that person and forget to update the Ameriprise form. That may be another question for my financial adviser.
The one single thing that would be a mistake would be to neglect getting it right.
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lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by lthenderson »

dbr wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:00 am The one single thing that would be a mistake would be to neglect getting it right.
Which is why I declined to provide him an answer and seek the collective wisdom of this forum. I've learned several things already just by asking this question.
johnnyc321
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by johnnyc321 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:10 am rcarnes1 makes a good point. Most financial institutions require their own power of attorney form to be executed and approved. A general power of attorney COULD be forced to work in a dire situation, and is still an important document to have. But if you have specific accounts with good odds of requiring action by a POA, it's best to have this set up with the financial institution ahead of time.
This is completely asinine. Most durable powers of attorney are not used until the principal has lost capacity. At that time, completion of the institution's form by the principal is impossible. Many power of attorney statutes, such as Florida's, provide for damages, attorneys' fees, and costs to be paid by third persons who refuse to accept valid powers of attorney.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by bsteiner »

Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm ... Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Except in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:48 pm ...
I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS ....
There's lots of litigation over joint accounts. The surviving joint owner claims it, but the beneficiaries of the estate (e.g., the other children) say it was set up for convenience and should be in the estate.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

bsteiner wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 am
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm ... Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Except in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:48 pm ...
I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS ....
There's lots of litigation over joint accounts. The surviving joint owner claims it, but the beneficiaries of the estate (e.g., the other children) say it was set up for convenience and should be in the estate.
I think I read something like that regarding Pennsylvania too and that's where I got the faulty idea. I was wrong regarding Federal gift taxation, but overall I still agree, as per this post, that becoming a joint account owner is a bad idea for all the reasons mentioned.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dbr »

bsteiner wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 am
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm ... Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Except in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
dbr wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:48 pm ...
I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS ....
There's lots of litigation over joint accounts. The surviving joint owner claims it, but the beneficiaries of the estate (e.g., the other children) say it was set up for convenience and should be in the estate.
I assume you would advise a POA. I wonder if POA's don't often end up in abuse/litigation as well.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by bsteiner »

dbr wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:53 am ...
I assume you would advise a POA. I wonder if POA's don't often end up in abuse/litigation as well.
There's litigation over powers of attorney if the agent misbehaves and takes the principal's assets. We've had such cases.

You should give careful consideration to the selection of your agent.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

johnnyc321 wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:20 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:10 am rcarnes1 makes a good point. Most financial institutions require their own power of attorney form to be executed and approved. A general power of attorney COULD be forced to work in a dire situation, and is still an important document to have. But if you have specific accounts with good odds of requiring action by a POA, it's best to have this set up with the financial institution ahead of time.
This is completely asinine. Most durable powers of attorney are not used until the principal has lost capacity. At that time, completion of the institution's form by the principal is impossible. Many power of attorney statutes, such as Florida's, provide for damages, attorneys' fees, and costs to be paid by third persons who refuse to accept valid powers of attorney.
Might seem asinine to you, but welcome to the real world. My own take is that a general Durable Power of Attorney could be forced upon an institution with a good chance of success. But most people only have a few major accounts. Why not just play the game to prevent hassles? I know that my elderly parents will probably need me to act on their behalf. So I found out ahead of time what the institution requires, did it, and have a letter acknowledging my power of attorney status. I'll grant you that some folks would rather do a "springing" power of attorney, that doesn't go into effect until the person is incapacitated as verified by a doctor. This is harder to set up ahead of time. But if you can't trust a person to be your POA now, while you still have your marbles, can you trust them once your marbles are gone?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

bsteiner wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 am
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm ... Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Except in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
Thanks, Bruce. Wasn't aware of the NY Banking law. Upon reading it however, it doesn't appear it's a completed gift for Federal tax purposes but only creates a presumption that the intention was to create a joint tenancy. Would you file a gift tax return if parent placed $100,000 in a joint account with daughter in New York State?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by bsteiner »

Gill wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:02 am
bsteiner wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 am
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm ... Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Except in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
Thanks, Bruce. Wasn't aware of the NY Banking law. Upon reading it however, it doesn't appear it's a completed gift for Federal tax purposes but only creates a presumption that the intention was to create a joint tenancy. Would you file a gift tax return if parent placed $100,000 in a joint account with daughter in New York State?
Gill
We would generally advise against creating a joint account (except between spouses where appropriate). However, unlike most if not all other states, the presumption in New York is that it's a gift. See this case in the Court of Appeals (the highest court in New York) and the cases it cites: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... s_sdt=4,33.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by 2015 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm
2015 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm
BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
rcarnes1 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.

When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
No it's not as complicated as you suggest. As part of very simple estate planning, I am co-owner of checking/savings accounts at one institution. No step up basis involved. I am executor of the estate and the will has provisions for division of assets with other heirs which I intend to follow so no heirs will be excluded.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

Agreed that for simple estates, without assets that could be stepped up, this is less of an issue. But without that information, the Boglehead assumption would suggest a more complicated situation. Esp since you used the term "financial institution" instead of "bank". Suggesting "brokerage".
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Good Listener »

Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm
Good Listener wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm
2015 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm
BolderBoy wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...

Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.

When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
So then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?
Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
Gill, this is fascinating and let me push you please. I am in New Jersey. So if somebody has a money exceeding say the estate and gift tax exemption at Vanguard or elsewhere, he/she could simply add a child to it as a joint account and have no gift or estate tax consequences?
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Gill »

Good Listener wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:59 pm
Gill wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm
Good Listener wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm
2015 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm

Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.

When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
So then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?
Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.
Gill
Gill, this is fascinating and let me push you please. I am in New Jersey. So if somebody has a money exceeding say the estate and gift tax exemption at Vanguard or elsewhere, he/she could simply add a child to it as a joint account and have no gift or estate tax consequences?
No, not at all. There would not be a gift but the full account would still be included in the estate at death.
Gill
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by afan »

When I was helping an elderly person who was running out of the ability to manage affairs I had a DPOA. Not a single company would recognize it. Rather than go to court, we had the person move the assets to a trust for which I was trustee. There were no problems once I proved I was the person named in the instrument as trustee.

The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.

Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by Leesbro63 »

afan wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:35 am When I was helping an elderly person who was running out of the ability to manage affairs I had a DPOA. Not a single company would recognize it. Rather than go to court, we had the person move the assets to a trust for which I was trustee. There were no problems once I proved I was the person named in the instrument as trustee.

The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.

Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.
So if the money passes by TOD but the estate has expenses, what happens? Can the creditors go after the recipient of the TOD funds? Certainly the federal and state taxman can.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will

Post by dm200 »

afan wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:35 am When I was helping an elderly person who was running out of the ability to manage affairs I had a DPOA. Not a single company would recognize it. Rather than go to court, we had the person move the assets to a trust for which I was trustee. There were no problems once I proved I was the person named in the instrument as trustee.
The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.
Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.
If this denial was in conflict with applicable state law/regulations, before going to court - I might have cited the applicable law/regs and raised hell with their management.
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