Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
- lthenderson
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Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
My spouse and I have a will and medical directive with power of attorney listed. Most of our retirement assets are with Vanguard and self directed but I do have an old account through Ameriprise and continue to have a yearly checkup meeting with a financial adviser there. During our annual meeting yesterday, he mentioned that Ameriprise now has a power of attorney form for my accounts with them that he thought would supersede any previous power of attorney documents I have in my will and asked whom I wished to name as my power of attorney. For the time being, I declined to name someone.
Can anyone think of a benefit to naming a power of attorney for my account at Ameriprise that possibly supersedes the power of attorney listed in my will? If I put the same person I have in my will listed as a my power attorney for my Ameriprise account specifically, I don't see any harm other than if I ever change my power of attorney, I have to now remember to do it both places.
Thoughts?
Can anyone think of a benefit to naming a power of attorney for my account at Ameriprise that possibly supersedes the power of attorney listed in my will? If I put the same person I have in my will listed as a my power attorney for my Ameriprise account specifically, I don't see any harm other than if I ever change my power of attorney, I have to now remember to do it both places.
Thoughts?
- cheese_breath
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I wasn't aware that you could have a power of attorney in your will. I thought all POAs ended with your death.
In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
You might want to go back to your attorney and make sure all of your various assignments are compatible with what you want. I also am not aware that there is a power of attorney in a will. While you are alive there can be multiple powers of attorney applying to different things. A health care POA is not a POA for financial affairs. Many institutions insist on their own POA form. After you have died there can be beneficiaries (heirs) of a will and an executor who manages the estate. There can also be beneficiaries assigned to accounts as POD/TOD, and those do take precedence over a will. It is possible he is asking you to be sure your beneficiary designations are up to date if you have any. You should not ignore this as the last thing you want is to have the wrong person inherit your assets and it can be that your will does not designate what is going to happen.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
My understanding as well.cheese_breath wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 am I wasn't aware that you could have a power of attorney in your will. I thought all POAs ended with your death.
In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I have no idea what you are referring to. There is no such thing as a power-of-attorney in a will. I would suspect he is talking about designating a beneficiary on your account which would enable the account to pass directly to a beneficiary rather than pass by virtue of your will as a probate asset.
Gill
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Roger
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
rcarnes1 makes a good point. Most financial institutions require their own power of attorney form to be executed and approved. A general power of attorney COULD be forced to work in a dire situation, and is still an important document to have. But if you have specific accounts with good odds of requiring action by a POA, it's best to have this set up with the financial institution ahead of time.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I'm guessing OP had estate documents drawn up by an attorney that included both a will (which takes effect after you die) and POA documents (which are in effect while you are still living). Maybe a health care POA, too.
In theory, if you have a properly executed POA document, you could take it to the bank or Vanguard or Ameriprise or BOA or anywhere else and they would accept and honor it. In practice, many financial institutions will only accept the special special form that their special special attorneys have drawn up for them, and they won't honor what you and your attorney did. And you often don't know this someone is unable to act for herself and her POA shows up with the form the family lawyer drafted.
So if Ameriprise says they will only honor their own form, you could take it up with their management and their CEO and your state's licensing board and the SEC and anyone else you want and fight them to the death, or you could fill out their form.
In theory, if you have a properly executed POA document, you could take it to the bank or Vanguard or Ameriprise or BOA or anywhere else and they would accept and honor it. In practice, many financial institutions will only accept the special special form that their special special attorneys have drawn up for them, and they won't honor what you and your attorney did. And you often don't know this someone is unable to act for herself and her POA shows up with the form the family lawyer drafted.
So if Ameriprise says they will only honor their own form, you could take it up with their management and their CEO and your state's licensing board and the SEC and anyone else you want and fight them to the death, or you could fill out their form.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
As best I understand, I don't think one valid POA supersedes another valid POA.
You might end up with more than one POA - maybe or maybe not a good idea. If both are valid for a particular institution - both woulld work and it might be whoever gets there first.
Where the supersedes issue may come into play is that one (later) POA may revoke all prior ones.
You might end up with more than one POA - maybe or maybe not a good idea. If both are valid for a particular institution - both woulld work and it might be whoever gets there first.
Where the supersedes issue may come into play is that one (later) POA may revoke all prior ones.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
In many states (check yours) including my own state of Virginia, financial institutions can no longer arbitrarily reject such POAs.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
There is still the issue of POD/TOD, which does supersede a will and applies after death but not before. It is very logical the advisor could be asking about this beneficiary procedure. I don't think power of attorney is what the discussion is, though apparently that was the term used.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
2015 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pmThanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I have a valid POA for all of my elderly parents brokerage accounts. I used each brokerage’s own forms, and requested a letter of acknowledgment. Although I generally use online access to rebalance their accounts and get tax data, ive needed human help on occasion. Because I jumped through their hoops ahead of time, there has never been a problem. I also saved their letters of acknowledgment in the event that, someday, there does become a question. Especially if it should happen after my parents might become incapacitated.
POA is not a big deal. Jump through the hoops, document everything and there should be no problems. Oh, one other thing: document any and all transaction that you do as POA and make a note of why you did it. It’s not impossible that a disgruntled family member might, before or after the death of the account owner, question a POA’s actions.
POA is not a big deal. Jump through the hoops, document everything and there should be no problems. Oh, one other thing: document any and all transaction that you do as POA and make a note of why you did it. It’s not impossible that a disgruntled family member might, before or after the death of the account owner, question a POA’s actions.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Right. "Put yourself on . . . an account" isn't a thing. The considerations here are important enough one should be very clear exactly what has been done. I am "on" a person's account that I help with personal financial management. That actually means that the bank had him execute the durable power of attorney form for our state with the applicability of the POA specifically limited, checked off, to his checking account at that bank and nothing else. That is what they require for a person to hold POA on that account. I have a joint checking account (JWROS) with my spouse, and that is an entirely different thing. Brokerage accounts and checking accounts may not operate exactly the same either.Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Also, with respect to the above mention of considerations, when the individual for whom I hold POA wanted to qualify for various forms of public support, every transaction I had made for more than a year had to be documented in detail with receipts and explanation.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
So then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm2015 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pmThanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I believe that the donor, not the financial institution, is responsible to file gift tax returns if any individual is gifted more than the annual exclusion amount, currently $15,000.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Incorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.Good Listener wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pmSo then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm2015 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pmThanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Then I stand corrected!
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I'll add one more thought (because I generally always point this out in these types of threads). If you have a POA that has been drafted by your attorney, you do not have to wait until becoming incapacitated to find out if your brokerage will honor it. Just give them a copy now and ask them to have their legal team review it. They can archive a copy, along with their lawyer's concurrence that it will be honored when needed. I have done this first part successfully. I'm still of somewhat sound mind, so we aren't 100% certain it will be honored, but we aren't really 100% certain about anything. Has anybody else done this or am I the lone wolf?
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
POA end with heartbeat. Trust executor would deal with items post death.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Trust executor? What’s that?
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I think he's talking about a Transfer On Death (TOD) designation, i.e. who will get the money after you die, not a power of attorney, who will act on your behalf. TOD on your account does supersede whatever you say in your will. The benefit of doing a TOD is the transfer will happen outside probate. The designated person doesn't have to wait as long.lthenderson wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:50 am During our annual meeting yesterday, he mentioned that Ameriprise now has a power of attorney form for my accounts with them that he thought would supersede any previous power of attorney documents I have in my will and asked whom I wished to name as my power of attorney.
Harry Sit has left the forums.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I interpret it to mean making the other person a joint tenant with right of survivorship.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Thanks. I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS, compared to giving another person power of attorney, compared to specifying a person a beneficiary TOD, compared to a person who is a custodian either under UTMA or based on court order due to incompetence of the principal, compared to being a trustee of a trust, compared to being an executor of an estate or an heir to an estate, etc. My point is that there is a laundry list of possible recognized legal procedures and there is colloquial banter that leaves everyone completely confused at to what is what, the parties to the issue being the most confused of all sometimes.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Well said and, unfortunately, very true.dbr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:48 pmThanks. I think it is good for people to be aware exactly what they are doing when they mess around with accounts. It is important to consider the consequences of making another person JTWROS, compared to giving another person power of attorney, compared to specifying a person a beneficiary TOD, compared to a person who is a custodian either under UTMA or based on court order due to incompetence of the principal, compared to being a trustee of a trust, compared to being an executor of an estate or an heir to an estate, etc. My point is that there is a laundry list of possible recognized legal procedures and there is colloquial banter that leaves everyone completely confused at to what is what, the parties to the issue being the most confused of all sometimes.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
This was in Virginia about 7 years ago. Glad to hear they've been stepped on about it.dm200 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:04 pmIn many states (check yours) including my own state of Virginia, financial institutions can no longer arbitrarily reject such POAs.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
- lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I guess I wasn't clear enough. The medical directive has a power of attorney assigned should we both become incapacitated. The POA for our Ameriprise asset is also for the same situation.dm200 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:36 amMy understanding as well.cheese_breath wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 am I wasn't aware that you could have a power of attorney in your will. I thought all POAs ended with your death.
In any event, whether you can or can't I see no reason why you should change your POA (do you mean executor???) simply because Ameriprise wants you to.
- lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
This is exactly what I meant to say but didn't quite spit it out.NotWhoYouThink wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:11 am I'm guessing OP had estate documents drawn up by an attorney that included both a will (which takes effect after you die) and POA documents (which are in effect while you are still living). Maybe a health care POA, too.
In theory, if you have a properly executed POA document, you could take it to the bank or Vanguard or Ameriprise or BOA or anywhere else and they would accept and honor it. In practice, many financial institutions will only accept the special special form that their special special attorneys have drawn up for them, and they won't honor what you and your attorney did. And you often don't know this someone is unable to act for herself and her POA shows up with the form the family lawyer drafted.
So if Ameriprise says they will only honor their own form, you could take it up with their management and their CEO and your state's licensing board and the SEC and anyone else you want and fight them to the death, or you could fill out their form.
You bring up an excellent point about whether or not Ameriprise will recognize our POA document. My financial adviser did make some sort of comment that assigning a POA through Ameriprise would be beneficial if he (my financial adviser) wasn't around anymore or out of the office, i.e. whomever wouldn't know our POA visually. I guess that it the question I need to ask the next time I go in there is if they would recognize my lawyer drafted POA.
- lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Thanks for this info. I didn't realize this having never been a POA myself or really having gone through a situation where someone close to me was one.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
- lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Thanks everyone for their replies. Sorry I had to step away yesterday and didn't get a chance to respond sooner.
Yes I meant POA if I become medically incapacitated and is a separate document from my will. I had all drafted up at the same time.
I guess from reading everything, the questions I really need to ask the Ameriprise financial adviser the next time I see him are:
1. Does this supersede the POA I already have designated?
2. Will Ameriprise recognize my POA document I already have drawn up?
It doesn't sound like anyone has a concern with doing this (the overall tone is that this may/is beneficial) unless it does supersede my original POA and sometime in the future I change that person and forget to update the Ameriprise form. That may be another question for my financial adviser.
Yes I meant POA if I become medically incapacitated and is a separate document from my will. I had all drafted up at the same time.
I guess from reading everything, the questions I really need to ask the Ameriprise financial adviser the next time I see him are:
1. Does this supersede the POA I already have designated?
2. Will Ameriprise recognize my POA document I already have drawn up?
It doesn't sound like anyone has a concern with doing this (the overall tone is that this may/is beneficial) unless it does supersede my original POA and sometime in the future I change that person and forget to update the Ameriprise form. That may be another question for my financial adviser.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
The one single thing that would be a mistake would be to neglect getting it right.lthenderson wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:57 am Thanks everyone for their replies. Sorry I had to step away yesterday and didn't get a chance to respond sooner.
Yes I meant POA if I become medically incapacitated and is a separate document from my will. I had all drafted up at the same time.
I guess from reading everything, the questions I really need to ask the Ameriprise financial adviser the next time I see him are:
1. Does this supersede the POA I already have designated?
2. Will Ameriprise recognize my POA document I already have drawn up?
It doesn't sound like anyone has a concern with doing this (the overall tone is that this may/is beneficial) unless it does supersede my original POA and sometime in the future I change that person and forget to update the Ameriprise form. That may be another question for my financial adviser.
- lthenderson
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
This is completely asinine. Most durable powers of attorney are not used until the principal has lost capacity. At that time, completion of the institution's form by the principal is impossible. Many power of attorney statutes, such as Florida's, provide for damages, attorneys' fees, and costs to be paid by third persons who refuse to accept valid powers of attorney.Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:10 am rcarnes1 makes a good point. Most financial institutions require their own power of attorney form to be executed and approved. A general power of attorney COULD be forced to work in a dire situation, and is still an important document to have. But if you have specific accounts with good odds of requiring action by a POA, it's best to have this set up with the financial institution ahead of time.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Except in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
There's lots of litigation over joint accounts. The surviving joint owner claims it, but the beneficiaries of the estate (e.g., the other children) say it was set up for convenience and should be in the estate.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I think I read something like that regarding Pennsylvania too and that's where I got the faulty idea. I was wrong regarding Federal gift taxation, but overall I still agree, as per this post, that becoming a joint account owner is a bad idea for all the reasons mentioned.bsteiner wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 amExcept in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
There's lots of litigation over joint accounts. The surviving joint owner claims it, but the beneficiaries of the estate (e.g., the other children) say it was set up for convenience and should be in the estate.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
I assume you would advise a POA. I wonder if POA's don't often end up in abuse/litigation as well.bsteiner wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 amExcept in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
There's lots of litigation over joint accounts. The surviving joint owner claims it, but the beneficiaries of the estate (e.g., the other children) say it was set up for convenience and should be in the estate.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
There's litigation over powers of attorney if the agent misbehaves and takes the principal's assets. We've had such cases.
You should give careful consideration to the selection of your agent.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Might seem asinine to you, but welcome to the real world. My own take is that a general Durable Power of Attorney could be forced upon an institution with a good chance of success. But most people only have a few major accounts. Why not just play the game to prevent hassles? I know that my elderly parents will probably need me to act on their behalf. So I found out ahead of time what the institution requires, did it, and have a letter acknowledging my power of attorney status. I'll grant you that some folks would rather do a "springing" power of attorney, that doesn't go into effect until the person is incapacitated as verified by a doctor. This is harder to set up ahead of time. But if you can't trust a person to be your POA now, while you still have your marbles, can you trust them once your marbles are gone?johnnyc321 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:20 amThis is completely asinine. Most durable powers of attorney are not used until the principal has lost capacity. At that time, completion of the institution's form by the principal is impossible. Many power of attorney statutes, such as Florida's, provide for damages, attorneys' fees, and costs to be paid by third persons who refuse to accept valid powers of attorney.Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:10 am rcarnes1 makes a good point. Most financial institutions require their own power of attorney form to be executed and approved. A general power of attorney COULD be forced to work in a dire situation, and is still an important document to have. But if you have specific accounts with good odds of requiring action by a POA, it's best to have this set up with the financial institution ahead of time.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Thanks, Bruce. Wasn't aware of the NY Banking law. Upon reading it however, it doesn't appear it's a completed gift for Federal tax purposes but only creates a presumption that the intention was to create a joint tenancy. Would you file a gift tax return if parent placed $100,000 in a joint account with daughter in New York State?bsteiner wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 amExcept in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
We would generally advise against creating a joint account (except between spouses where appropriate). However, unlike most if not all other states, the presumption in New York is that it's a gift. See this case in the Court of Appeals (the highest court in New York) and the cases it cites: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... s_sdt=4,33.Gill wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:02 amThanks, Bruce. Wasn't aware of the NY Banking law. Upon reading it however, it doesn't appear it's a completed gift for Federal tax purposes but only creates a presumption that the intention was to create a joint tenancy. Would you file a gift tax return if parent placed $100,000 in a joint account with daughter in New York State?bsteiner wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 amExcept in New York under NY Banking Law § 675 there's a presumption it's a gift: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/banking-law ... t-675.html.
Gill
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
No it's not as complicated as you suggest. As part of very simple estate planning, I am co-owner of checking/savings accounts at one institution. No step up basis involved. I am executor of the estate and the will has provisions for division of assets with other heirs which I intend to follow so no heirs will be excluded.Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm2015 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pmThanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...rcarnes1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:04 am Vanguard, Chase Bank, and many other financial institutions have their own "Agent Authorization" forms that need to be completed before they will recognize your general Power of Attorney. We all need to be aware of this step before making your Power of Attorney documents functional.
Roger
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Agreed that for simple estates, without assets that could be stepped up, this is less of an issue. But without that information, the Boglehead assumption would suggest a more complicated situation. Esp since you used the term "financial institution" instead of "bank". Suggesting "brokerage".
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
Gill, this is fascinating and let me push you please. I am in New Jersey. So if somebody has a money exceeding say the estate and gift tax exemption at Vanguard or elsewhere, he/she could simply add a child to it as a joint account and have no gift or estate tax consequences?Gill wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pmIncorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.Good Listener wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pmSo then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm2015 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pmThanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.BolderBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 pm
+1. This. I showed a POA to my mother's bank and they said they will not honor it. When I pressed them they said they'd litigate it until the end of time if I pursued it. They then offered me their "custom" POA form which they will accept and only costs $50 to set up...
Same was true for her brokerage (subsidiary of same bank) which had its own form of POA which they charged $45 to set up.
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Gill
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
No, not at all. There would not be a gift but the full account would still be included in the estate at death.Good Listener wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:59 pmGill, this is fascinating and let me push you please. I am in New Jersey. So if somebody has a money exceeding say the estate and gift tax exemption at Vanguard or elsewhere, he/she could simply add a child to it as a joint account and have no gift or estate tax consequences?Gill wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pmIncorrect advice here. Adding a child to a parent’s account is not a gift and nothing needs to be reported.Good Listener wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pmSo then a gift tax return would be needed? Does the bank have an obligation to report to IRS when such a gift is made if it exceeds some amount?Leesbro63 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm2015 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:26 pm
Thanks to many threads on this topic here, I got around this mess by simply putting myself on my mother's accounts. Last thing I want to deal with is some financial institution's bureaucracy while simultaneously overseeing her medical condition. In fact, getting on her accounts in advance of needing to do so was a tremendous help recently when she was hospitalized and I was tasked with paying her bills.
When you say you “put yourself on your mother’s accounts”, what do you mean? Did you execute a Power of Attorney, with each institutions’ own forms, getting a letter of acknowledgment? Or are you a co-owner? Becoming a co-owner can present other problems. For one thing, the assets will probably be deemed as 1/2 gifted to
you as of the date you became a co-owner. Causing you to lose a step-up in basis on half of the asset value. If you are not your mom’s sole heir, you will probably inherit the whole account(s) anyway, messing up any estate plan and possibly causing other intended heirs to be “cut out”.
Gill
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
When I was helping an elderly person who was running out of the ability to manage affairs I had a DPOA. Not a single company would recognize it. Rather than go to court, we had the person move the assets to a trust for which I was trustee. There were no problems once I proved I was the person named in the instrument as trustee.
The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.
Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.
The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.
Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.
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Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
So if the money passes by TOD but the estate has expenses, what happens? Can the creditors go after the recipient of the TOD funds? Certainly the federal and state taxman can.afan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:35 am When I was helping an elderly person who was running out of the ability to manage affairs I had a DPOA. Not a single company would recognize it. Rather than go to court, we had the person move the assets to a trust for which I was trustee. There were no problems once I proved I was the person named in the instrument as trustee.
The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.
Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.
Re: Power of attorney for a particular asset that supersedes power of attorney listed in will
If this denial was in conflict with applicable state law/regulations, before going to court - I might have cited the applicable law/regs and raised hell with their management.afan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:35 am When I was helping an elderly person who was running out of the ability to manage affairs I had a DPOA. Not a single company would recognize it. Rather than go to court, we had the person move the assets to a trust for which I was trustee. There were no problems once I proved I was the person named in the instrument as trustee.
The living trust did simplify settling the estate but it's big contribution was while the person was still alive.
Another problem with having all assets pass by joint tenancy or POD accounts is it can leave the estate with no money to pay legitimate bills. In the one estate I dealt with there was a house that had to be maintained, repaired and sold. There were tax bills. There were bills for services provided before death and final expenses. If everything had passed outside of the trust or estate it would have been a mess trying to find money to pay the bills.