Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

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GCD
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by GCD » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:51 am

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:10 am
As a parent, we have vested interested in our children's future. We need to provide the career guidance and counseling to our children. The answer would have to be tailored to the specific temperament and personality of our children.

This was one of the reasons that I spent a fair amount of my free time studying family therapy and career counseling. Parenting is very hard. I would suggest the parent should start with a (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) MBTI test.

KlangFool
LOL. Although this seems extreme on the surface, I agree. Conventional wisdom is of no use with a non-conventional kid. This may seem overwrought to some, but I think it's a good plan if your kid isn't "easy". One of mine is simultaneously special needs and gifted. Quite the challenge.

EDIT: So when I originally wrote this I was thinking MMPI, not MBTI. MMPI would be a little over the top for an average kid. MBTI is, as per my comments downthread, more in line with "What Color Is Your Parachute." But still valuable IMO.
Last edited by GCD on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:04 am

GCD wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:51 am
KlangFool wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:10 am
As a parent, we have vested interested in our children's future. We need to provide the career guidance and counseling to our children. The answer would have to be tailored to the specific temperament and personality of our children.

This was one of the reasons that I spent a fair amount of my free time studying family therapy and career counseling. Parenting is very hard. I would suggest the parent should start with a (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) MBTI test.

KlangFool
LOL. Although this seems extreme on the surface, I agree. Conventional wisdom is of no use with a non-conventional kid. This may seem overwrought to some, but I think it's a good plan if your kid isn't "easy". One of mine is simultaneously special needs and gifted. Quite the challenge.
GCD,

Many of my nephews (my side and my wife's side) are Autistic. So, in my family, the non-conventional is normal. The male child will be significantly above average in intelligence. It is just a question of whether they will be autistic. And, to what degree.

KlangFool

alfaspider
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by alfaspider » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:11 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:56 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:08 pm
I went to a liberal arts college and majored in philosophy. My current career as a tax attorney is highly compensated with a good work-life balance to boot.
Is your high compensation and good work-life balance a result of your philosophy degree? Or the subsequent law degree?

Your data point doesn't really help the OP.

I've seen others in this thread, who went to MEDICAL school afterwards, also say they were very happy with their career after getting a liberal arts degree.

:oops:
How so? I needed a degree of some sort to go to law school. The philosophy degree helped get me where I needed to go. Plus, it was useful on the LSAT and in law school. Would I have done the same thing with an engineering degree? Who knows, but I doubt it.

As I said earlier in this thread, a young student should think about career paths and how they will achieve them. Major may or may not part of a given path.

OnTrack
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by OnTrack » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm

"... U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ge/284359/

otinkyad
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by otinkyad » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:19 am

OnTrack wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm
"... U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings
I don’t have data across industries, but as a small business owner, I can say that applicants for software development jobs are not in short supply, but qualified applicants are.

A good reminder that forcing everyone into a field they are not interested in or suited for doesn’t help them. Also, while things like earnings by major are interesting, there are typically even larger variations within majors. Pick something you can be very good at, not just something where the average is high.

harrychan
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by harrychan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:35 am

OP,

Do this. Create a LinkedIn account if you don't have one. Then search your target liberal arts schools your child may attend. Review what type of jobs people are doing based on the school and degree. It will give you the best data on what you are looking for.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.

golfCaddy
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by golfCaddy » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:46 am

PhilosophyAndrew wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:47 am
This article published in December by the Washington Post describes why Google now recruits widely across many disciplines, including liberal arts discIplines. It addresses the OP’s question about workplace preparation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ans ... -students/

“All across America, students are anxiously finishing their “What I Want To Be …” college application essays, advised to focus on STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) by pundits and parents who insi that’s the only way to become workforce ready. But two recent studies of workplace success contradict the conventional wisdom about “hard skills.” Surprisingly, this research comes from the company most identified with the STEM-only approach: Google.”
It would be far more interesting to see the average salary at Google by college major of their employees with that major. That tells you what they actually value, instead of what they claim to value. Google may value some soft skills, but it doesn't necessarily follow those skills are improved by a liberal arts degree. For example, their top skill(according to HR) is being a good coach. There's not much reason to think you learn more about how "to be a good coach" in a history degree than an engineering degree, although it might be addressed in some b-school classes.

cheapskate
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by cheapskate » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:18 am

OnTrack wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm
"... U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ge/284359/
Interesting article. There was a long article (in 2016) in the WSJ that discussed employment woes of Science PhDs (very few tenure track positions, industry cutting back sharply on the "R" in R&D etc), I no longer have a WSJ subscription to pull that up and read it, but I gave a print copy of that to a friend whose son was contemplating a PhD in Biological Sciences. Perhaps the pullback in PhD hiring by Big Pharma has something to do with the employment situation of PhDs in Biological Sciences/Chemistry ?

For all the hype about STEM, the most promising majors in STEM continue to be Computer Science and now Data Science (Machine Learning/AI/BigData). Anecdotally, kids (of close friends) pursuing Chemistry or Biological Sciences, who hoped to apply for med school and changed their minds, are having a tough go at it. A BS got them nowhere, and they weren't keen on a PhD. Some are pursuing a MS in Computer Science after undergrad degrees in Chemistry/Microbiology/Biochemistry. The good news is that students with degrees in the sciences or mathematics should find Computer Science quite easy.

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:05 am

cheapskate wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:18 am
OnTrack wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm
"... U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ge/284359/
Interesting article. There was a long article (in 2016) in the WSJ that discussed employment woes of Science PhDs (very few tenure track positions, industry cutting back sharply on the "R" in R&D etc), I no longer have a WSJ subscription to pull that up and read it, but I gave a print copy of that to a friend whose son was contemplating a PhD in Biological Sciences. Perhaps the pullback in PhD hiring by Big Pharma has something to do with the employment situation of PhDs in Biological Sciences/Chemistry ?

For all the hype about STEM, the most promising majors in STEM continue to be Computer Science and now Data Science (Machine Learning/AI/BigData). Anecdotally, kids (of close friends) pursuing Chemistry or Biological Sciences, who hoped to apply for med school and changed their minds, are having a tough go at it. A BS got them nowhere, and they weren't keen on a PhD. Some are pursuing a MS in Computer Science after undergrad degrees in Chemistry/Microbiology/Biochemistry. The good news is that students with degrees in the sciences or mathematics should find Computer Science quite easy.
cheapskate,

Basic supply and demand, if the STEM starting salary is increasing faster than inflation, the demand is growing faster than supply. In summary, based on starting salary trend of STEM graduate, there is no shortage.

<<the most promising majors in STEM continue to be Computer Science and now Data Science (Machine Learning/AI/BigData).>>

I need to remember where I read this. Essentially, the data scientist's salary had stopped increasing over the last few years. The supply had kept up with the demand.

It takes certain kind of people to be a STEM person. If your daughter is not one of those, you should not push her toward that major.

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:08 am

OnTrack wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:49 pm
"... U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ge/284359/
OnTrack,

This is a well-known scam by the high tech employer to oversupply the tech job market and keep their labor cost down.

KlangFool

RetiredCSProf
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by RetiredCSProf » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:36 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:05 am

It takes certain kind of people to be a STEM person. If your daughter is not one of those, you should not push her toward that major.
I take offense at this generalization of a "STEM person." After 40 years of experience in working in the STEM industry, I have to say that it takes all kinds of people. OTOH, it's not an industry that appeals to everyone.

I agree that your daughter should not be pushed toward her choice of a major. Last year, I had a college student in my class who did exceptionally well in her computer science classes, but switched her major to journalism half way through the semester because that was her passion. I had another student who had switched her major from bioengineering to computer science. She was probably my most enthusiastic student. (This was at a LAC - my students were Juniors and Seniors.)

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:00 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:36 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:05 am

It takes certain kind of people to be a STEM person. If your daughter is not one of those, you should not push her toward that major.
I take offense at this generalization of a "STEM person." After 40 years of experience in working in the STEM industry, I have to say that it takes all kinds of people. OTOH, it's not an industry that appeals to everyone.
RetiredCSProf,

In my post, the statement refers to the person that should major in STEM undergraduate degree.

<< in the STEM industry, I have to say that it takes all kinds of people. >>

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. In every industry, we need the writer and so on. Ditto on the accountants.

KlangFool

Mingus
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by Mingus » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:17 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:36 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:05 am

It takes certain kind of people to be a STEM person. If your daughter is not one of those, you should not push her toward that major.
I take offense at this generalization of a "STEM person."

I think all he/she is saying is for someone to be successful in STEM, they need to have a different set of smarts than someone who would be better off in the myriad of social studies programs offered at liberal art schools.

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nisiprius
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by nisiprius » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:33 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ans ... -students/
In 2013, Google decided to test its hiring hypothesis by crunching every bit and byte of hiring, firing, and promotion data accumulated since the company’s incorporation in 1998. Project Oxygen shocked everyone by concluding that, among the eight most important qualities of Google’s top employees, STEM expertise comes in dead last. The seven top characteristics of success at Google are all soft skills: being a good coach; communicating and listening well; possessing insights into others (including others different values and points of view); having empathy toward and being supportive of one’s colleagues; being a good critical thinker and problem solver; and being able to make connections across complex ideas.

Those traits sound more like what one gains as an English or theater major than as a programmer....
Project Aristotle shows that the best teams at Google exhibit a range of soft skills: equality, generosity, curiosity toward the ideas of your teammates, empathy, and emotional intelligence. And topping the list: emotional safety. No bullying. To succeed, each and every team member must feel confident speaking up and making mistakes. They must know they are being heard....
A recent survey of 260 employers by the nonprofit National Association of Colleges and Employers, which includes both small firms and behemoths like Chevron and IBM, also ranks communication skills in the top three most-sought after qualities by job recruiters....
No student should be prevented from majoring in an area they love based on a false idea of what they need to succeed.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

Mingus
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by Mingus » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:50 pm

Google will crash and burn if they put an overt emphasis on those skills rather than hiring the smartest engineers and coders they can find.

There are also race discrimination lawsuits against Google currently.

GCD
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by GCD » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:53 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:33 pm

And topping the list: emotional safety. No bullying.
I have to say I have no idea what to think. This seems opposed to the "bro" culture I keep hearing about in Silicon Valley. Maybe the women have a different view. And I keep reading about conservatives feeling very put upon at Google. Who's to say what is really happening?

blevine
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by blevine » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:13 am

One thing to consider, large universities all have liberal arts. I went to one of the largest private universities, and while I graduated from the liberal arts school, I took courses in the engineering and business schools. Ability to”find yourself” is only enhanced meeting people of other majors and taking an intro course to explore. A small LAC, while highly personal, would not have the breadth of opportunity. My eldest went to another large uni, and through electives in different colleges within the uni changed his goals entirely. I will say I see the benefits of a small college, my other child attends a mid size and we certainly considered tiny colleges for both, but in the end I felt a large diverse uni best serves the purpose of undergrad, to find oneself.

OnTrack
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by OnTrack » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am

Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:44 am

OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
OnTrack,

<<Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives.>>

Or the young people were dumb enough to work all those unpaid overtime. Then, they wise up and work in some other industry and/or employers with better work-life balance.

http://www.businessinsider.com/median-t ... art-2017-8

The median age of the Facebook employee is 28 years old.

KlangFool

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HomerJ
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by HomerJ » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:47 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:44 am
OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
OnTrack,

<<Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives.>>

Or the young people were dumb enough to work all those unpaid overtime. Then, they wise up and work in some other industry and/or employers with better work-life balance.

http://www.businessinsider.com/median-t ... art-2017-8

The median age of the Facebook employee is 28 years old.

KlangFool
If I was any other tech company, I would use these words against Zuckerburg to steal talent.

"He's going to cast you off as soon as you hit 30 and have a kid. Why don't you come work for a real company that actually values its employees?"

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:10 pm

I can see where young engineers coming into employment are "viewed" as smarter. My first design in my first job after graduation was done in 6 months. I didn't know that the average project for our group took 18 months. I didn't get all the T's crossed and i's dotted either. My first introduction to costing out the project was in the design review where our manager asked my supervisor why there wasn't a costing done yet. I hadn't run into that, but was eager to learn. It's not that I was smarter....it was that I didn't know all the bureaucracy that can bog down a project.


I'm also sort of sick of "go into STEM". Every major, even specialty is different. My son as an example couldn't "get" electronic circuits. Although he could get the problems done, he didn't "see" what the circuit was doing without the math. I'm a EE and would look at his white board of a circuit and intuitively understand what was going on. He's built differently. Soon afterwards, he switched to Civil/Mechanical engineering because it intuitively made so much more sense. He's doing well with that.

With all that being said, I firmly believe that the purpose of getting a bachelors degree is to learn how to learn. From that point, you just go and know how to learn what you need to know. But a specialty gets you that first job.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:35 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:44 am
OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
OnTrack,

<<Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives.>>

Or the young people were dumb enough to work all those unpaid overtime. Then, they wise up and work in some other industry and/or employers with better work-life balance.

http://www.businessinsider.com/median-t ... art-2017-8

The median age of the Facebook employee is 28 years old.

KlangFool
If I was any other tech company, I would use these words against Zuckerburg to steal talent.

"He's going to cast you off as soon as you hit 30 and have a kid. Why don't you come work for a real company that actually values its employees?"
HomerJ,

Why? Eventually, we all got what we deserved. Those choosing to work unpaid overtime and nowhere else to go will remain. Meanwhile, others that got smart and realize that they got a raw deal will leave.

It is a choice. We either fight for a better treatment or we just take whatever is given to us.

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:38 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:10 pm

I can see where young engineers coming into employment are "viewed" as smarter.
Jack FFR1846,

Why discrimination based on race, gender, sex, and religion is wrong but age discrimination is okay and cool?

KlangFool

skjoldur
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by skjoldur » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:21 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:10 am
This was one of the reasons that I spent a fair amount of my free time studying family therapy and career counseling. Parenting is very hard. I would suggest the parent should start with a (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) MBTI test.

KlangFool
Myers-Briggs is probably not useful (if you believe in evidence based approaches).

Some quick googling will bring up the problems with it. Example:
In summary, it appears that the MBTI does not conform to many of the basic standards expected of psychological tests. Many very specific predictions about the MBTI have not been confirmed or have been proved wrong. There is no obvious evidence that there are 16 unique categories in which all people can be placed. There is no evidence that scores generated by the MBTI reflect the stable and unchanging personality traits that are claimed to be measured. Finally, there is no evidence that the MBTI measures anything of value.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... s-9359770/

One might as well stick with horoscopes. They "work" for the same reasons that Myers-Briggs works.

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:33 pm

skjoldur wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:21 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:10 am
This was one of the reasons that I spent a fair amount of my free time studying family therapy and career counseling. Parenting is very hard. I would suggest the parent should start with a (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) MBTI test.

KlangFool
Myers-Briggs is probably not useful (if you believe in evidence based approaches).

Some quick googling will bring up the problems with it. Example:
In summary, it appears that the MBTI does not conform to many of the basic standards expected of psychological tests. Many very specific predictions about the MBTI have not been confirmed or have been proved wrong. There is no obvious evidence that there are 16 unique categories in which all people can be placed. There is no evidence that scores generated by the MBTI reflect the stable and unchanging personality traits that are claimed to be measured. Finally, there is no evidence that the MBTI measures anything of value.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... s-9359770/

One might as well stick with horoscopes. They "work" for the same reasons that Myers-Briggs works.
It works for me and for the folks that I mentored and coached over 20+ years.

KlangFool

Shikoku
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by Shikoku » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:17 pm

OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
Can someone send the following article to Zuckerburg?

Experience counts for Nobel laureates
https://www.nature.com/news/2011/111107 ... 1.632.html
Study of prizewinning scientists suggests greatest discoveries are now made by middle-aged researchers, not young ones.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett

GCD
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by GCD » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:49 am

skjoldur wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:21 pm

Myers-Briggs is probably not useful (if you believe in evidence based approaches).

One might as well stick with horoscopes. They "work" for the same reasons that Myers-Briggs works.
In the social sciences evidence based approaches are only marginally more useful than qualitative approaches. The evidence based folks want to think they are rigorous and whatnot, but when you dig deep into replicability and construct validity you see they aren't producing anything that much better. You think replicability in the hard sciences is a problem? It's nothing compared to the social sciences.

Myers-Briggs is just a more formalized version of "what color is my parachute". A lot of people find the book quite useful and the author of parachute suggests the MBTI among other personality tests.

If it helps someone think through what they want to do in life and find something that matches their personality and talents then it worked.
Last edited by GCD on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

KlangFool
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by KlangFool » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:38 am

Shikoku wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:17 pm
OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
Can someone send the following article to Zuckerburg?

Experience counts for Nobel laureates
https://www.nature.com/news/2011/111107 ... 1.632.html
Study of prizewinning scientists suggests greatest discoveries are now made by middle-aged researchers, not young ones.
Shikoku,

Why? I just reduce or stop my usage of Facebook. And, do not buy things advertised through Facebook. This is a more effective and direct mean of protest.

KlangFool

newstreetnj
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by newstreetnj » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:12 am

Hi Cheapskate,

Have 2 D myself. Your D sounds like a gem "hardworking etc" You seem to be absolutely convinced that she can't make it into Amherst etc. Has she taken her SATs yet? Maybe she's done the PSAT and she's not ,say,in the top 2% but scores sometime change for the better and there are SAT prep courses.

I just don't think you're going to sway her based on my own lack of success with my 2. Well, maybe with one. The other did get her CPA but is now the mom of 3 kids. However, going into accounting was her own idea, so I get no credit.

Bob

cheapskate
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by cheapskate » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:21 am

newstreetnj wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:12 am
Hi Cheapskate,

Have 2 D myself. Your D sounds like a gem "hardworking etc" You seem to be absolutely convinced that she can't make it into Amherst etc. Has she taken her SATs yet? Maybe she's done the PSAT and she's not ,say,in the top 2% but scores sometime change for the better and there are SAT prep courses.

I just don't think you're going to sway her based on my own lack of success with my 2. Well, maybe with one. The other did get her CPA but is now the mom of 3 kids. However, going into accounting was her own idea, so I get no credit.

Bob
Yeah, she is hardworking, she has a healthy GPA and SAT but not 4.0 unweighted/1550+ SAT etc. I am convinced that applying to top tier will be a total waste of time/effort and money. I've had better success with my other 2 kids. Oldest was similarly confused, but took my advice and enrolled in undergrad B-School. She is happy with the coursework, and is keeping busy with part time jobs (trying to make at least enough money to cover rent etc). Her B-school has a 97-98% job placement rate upon graduation (it is a good, 2nd tier B-school in a Metro area with good growth and low unemployment, and anecdotally grads seem to land multiple jobs right out of school). In Computer Science and undergrad in Business (especially MIS/Supply Chain/Operations Mgmt/Accounting), almost all graduates seem to land a job pretty quickly after graduation. Youngest is totally into Computer Science and and spends all his spare time coding. He is certain he wants double major in CS and Statistics. Middle D is very strong willed, and won't be swayed. Following the advice of many on this board, I am going to let her follow her plans into majoring in Social Sciences - she will work hard in a major of her choice. But will be very resentful if I try to push her into anything she does not want to do.

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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by nisiprius » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:41 am

I have to say that I've been fascinated by descriptions of St. John's College (two campuses, Annapolis MD and Santa Fé, New Mexico... and not to be confused with a number of other "St. Johnses.") This is the purest of the pure liberal arts. It was founded by people in the same community as Mortimer Adler ("Great Books of the Western World,") Meiklejohn College (at the University of Wisconsin--which lives on in attenuated form as "Integrated Liberal Studies,") and various other "Western Civilization" and "Western Canon" and "Great Books" and "Core Curriculum" programs.

In theory, St. John's students use no textbooks at all, and learn everything directly from original sources--including, I think, learning Latin and Greek so that they can read Aristotle and Aquinas. They learn physics by reading Galileo and Newton. The source texts continue into the twentieth (and twenty-first?) centuries so they do learn about DNA and so forth. There is only one curriculum and no electives.

I've thought about college-age me and wondered whether I would have found St. John's College to be heaven or hell. Probably the latter.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by quantAndHold » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:50 am

OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
Yet Facebook has repeatedly tried to recruit 50-something year old me, and most of my 40 and 50-something year old friends, because they recognize that they need adult leadership. What Zuckerberg says in an interview and what his company does are two different things. Facebook, and companies like them, actively recruit older talent, but have trouble attracting it, because most older people have enough sense and enough options to not want that kind of job.

This whole thing about tech careers being short is a canard that I wish would die. All of my 50 and 60-something friends in tech that still want to work are still working in tech. They’re not visible sitting in the bullpen at Facebook, because that’s not where they are in their career. As people get older, they change. People who’ve been consistently working in tech tend to have enough money to have choices. They move into management. They move into consulting. They start lifestyle companies or move to jobs that are more lifestyle oriented. Nobody spends 40 years working in a bullpen as an low level code monkey. That would be insane.

jrbdmb
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by jrbdmb » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:04 am

OnTrack wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:21 am
Another problem with the high tech industry is that a person's career may have a limited lifespan. A quote from Mark Zuckerburg who is explaining that there are not enough talented engineers: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/co ... rsons-game
I read the bolded quote as "I can work young engineers for 80+ hours a week with substandard pay and little chance for advancement, and they happily do it because they have no life and think they are making a difference by allowing me to make billions from Americans gossiping about one another."

I wonder if Zuckerberg will step aside soon since he is not-so-young anymore (33) and therefore not-so-smart?

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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by RetiredCSProf » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:18 pm

cheapskate wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:32 pm
Thought of getting some advice here, in case Bogleheads have kids who have degrees from Liberal Arts Colleges (LACs) in Social Sciences - Political Science/Public Policy/History/Economics.
...
- Most LACs are out in the Boonies. I have a hard time believing companies would go on-campus to the middle of nowhere to recruit. Do LACs do a good job helping students find jobs ?
I don't think this last question has been answered. I can give anecdotal responses:
  • The LAC where I taught set up recruiting opportunities for my students to apply for internships and for jobs after graduating. At the university where I taught, most of my undergraduate students were planning to continue on to graduate school or were returning to their native countries.

    My neighbor's daughter earned a degree from a LAC. She decided to switch fields after graduating. Her degree is in Government from Georgetown Univ (is this in the boonies?). She is working in communications.

    All four of my nieces graduated from LACs -- all out in the boonies, but close to metropolitan areas. Two nieces earned degrees in art history from schools in the Claremont area -- one worked at an art gallery; both are now stay-at-home Moms. One niece earned a degree in the social sciences at Wellesley College and is now an ER doctor. Only one of my nieces applied her undergraduate degree to her current career: degree in entrepreneurial business from Tufts Univ, followed by an MBA.

    My nephew graduated from a LAC near downtown Los Angeles -- definitely not the boonies. I do not know if his school helped him in finding his first job, but I think it helped him make connections. His degree is in film from USC -- he had a full ride.

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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by golfCaddy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:22 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:50 am
Nobody spends 40 years working in a bullpen as an low level code monkey. That would be insane.
I'm going to push back some on the insane part. Outside of up or out professions(big law, management consulting, IB, military), most people will never make upper management or even middle management. A lot of people will spend 30-40 years in a code monkey position, although I agree they'll tend to gravitate to positions that don't require insane hours.

Natsdoc
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Re: Need advice re: Liberal Arts Colleges...

Post by Natsdoc » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:43 pm

I went to a non top-tier (non-top-20!) liberal arts college, almost 20 years ago now! I had a specific reason (religious affiliation) for wanting to go to this particular school, and loved my 4 years there. I did pre-med coursework, and went to med school, but my BA is in a social science, since I knew that if I didn't go to medical school I didn't want to be a bench chemist!
I will add my 2 cents about the critical thinking, reasoning, well rounded-ness, and writing skills.
I will also add that the curriculum was quite demanding, and I learned how to study effectively and efficiently, which served me well in medical school. My classmates, who were science majors from large state schools, had apparently managed to get by cramming and partying, and really struggled initially to keep up with medical school demands. I felt like I was much more prepared, and I suspect this would have been the case if I'd entered the workforce instead.

All of my coursework was taught by full PhDs, and I had the opportunity to get to know them all, and get their feedback on my assignments and writing, which was invaluable. They were also there because they loved teaching (not just research) and so I had the opportunity to learn from people who invested in improving their teaching skills.

However, the cost of attendance has doubled since I attended. I think that if she's interested in these fields, getting her set up for a gap year internship or administrative role similar with someone with a liberal arts degree (social service agency, city/county government, etc) would be really valuable to see if she really sees herself doing something like this would be invaluable.

Best of luck!

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