Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Possible Solutions??

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Hockey10
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Hockey10 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:11 pm

Sandtrap,

Here is a link to an article that discusses HSA plans (as MP123 mentioned above). I am not an expert, but if your 2017 plan was HSA eligible, you can contribute to it up to April 15 in order to reduce your MAGI for 2017.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... rance.html

Once you get your situation finally sorted out, please follow up and let us know how it turned out. There are many readers who are interested in the topic of going over the subsidy cliff. I wish you well.

p.s. you have been a great resource on Bogleheads since you started posting. If you continue at the current pace (3500+ posts in 15 months), you might even catch livesoft in about 50 years.

aristotelian
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by aristotelian » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:30 pm

I agree, HSA and solo 401k for the photo income are the best bets. OP, can you clarify how much photo income we are talking about?

FactualFran
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by FactualFran » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
2. There is a huge difference between the monthly premium "subsidized" and "non" at that $60,000 break point. Please explain.
Those with income between 300% and 400% of the Federal Poverty Level qualify for a premium subsidize that makes their premium payment, for the second highest premium Silver plan in their area, 9.5% of their income. The monthly premium of $484 corresponds to 9.5% of an annual income of about $61,000. It does not matter what the non-subsidized premium is as long as the income is less than 400% of the Federal Poverty Level.

As others have posted, if income is even slightly above the income limit for a subsidy, there is no subsidy. The premium paid goes from being limited to 9.5% of income to not being limited. Because the health insurance premium is, almost certainly, over 10% of your Adjusted Gross Income, some of it can be deducted by itemizing deductions.

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MP123
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by MP123 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:40 pm

Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
So are you saying that if you have big interest and dividends, but no earned income, you are eligible for a big ACA premium subisdy?
No, pretty much all income counts towards ACA subsidies including tax exempt interest from muni bonds and social security income (both taxable and non-taxable portions). It's not just earned income.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by madbrain » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:43 pm

Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
So are you saying that if you have big interest and dividends, but no earned income, you are eligible for a big ACA premium subisdy?
Only as long as those add up to less than the 400% FPL threshold.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
$3,053/month for ACA medical insurance coverage which covers very little seems unreasonable.
Each of my infusion treatments for my cancer costs over $21,000.
In the past two months, I've had 6 so far.
Over the next year, I'll have at least 4 more.

And that's not even counting all the doctor visits, blood tests, bone marrow biopsies, CT scans, heart tests, etc.

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MP123
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by MP123 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:03 pm

aristotelian wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:30 pm
I agree, HSA and solo 401k for the photo income are the best bets. OP, can you clarify how much photo income we are talking about?
And self employed health insurance deduction if eligible.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by madbrain » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:09 pm

munemaker wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:41 pm
With any kind of insurance, it is normal to pay more in during any year than you get out. That is the principle of insurance. You are buying security.
This is true of for-profit, individually rated insurance. That is not always true for health insurance, which is nowadays always group (even ACA is effectively segmented in groups). Patients with chronic expensive medical conditions, such as ourselves, receive many times the amount paid in premiums and out-of-pocket costs, year after year. We would effectively die otherwise as there would be no way to afford care.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by niceguy7376 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 pm

If I am understanding it right, in the worst case scenario for OP when they dont find any legal methods to reduce the AGI:

OP would have paid $3058 per month for 12 months as premiums = $36K odd
OP has paid around 20K as health insurance expenses (copays and deductibles and what not)
For a grand total of $56K for an income of $65K?

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by plannerman » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:14 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
$3,053/month for ACA medical insurance coverage which covers very little seems unreasonable.
Each of my infusion treatments for my cancer costs over $21,000.
In the past two months, I've had 6 so far.
Over the next year, I'll have at least 4 more.

And that's not even counting all the doctor visits, blood tests, bone marrow biopsies, CT scans, heart tests, etc.
Just out of curiosity, is that the billed amount, or the amount insurance actually pays?

plannerman

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dwickenh
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by dwickenh » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:16 pm

Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
So are you saying that if you have big interest and dividends, but no earned income, you are eligible for a big ACA premium subisdy?
No, all income counts towards MAGI including tax exempt interest from Municipals.
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

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dwickenh
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by dwickenh » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 pm

Welcome to the ACA subsidy cliff Sandtrap. You should be able to lower your income with IRA contribution as long as you have earned income.

Best of luck,

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

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MP123
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by MP123 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:24 pm

niceguy7376 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 pm
If I am understanding it right, in the worst case scenario for OP when they dont find any legal methods to reduce the AGI:

OP would have paid $3058 per month for 12 months as premiums = $36K odd
OP has paid around 20K as health insurance expenses (copays and deductibles and what not)
For a grand total of $56K for an income of $65K?
The maximum out of pocket for an ACA plan is $14,700 and of course you have to pay the premiums too. So your figures above are potentially pretty close for some people without subsidies, not sure about OP.

JoeRetire
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:25 pm

plannerman wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:14 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
$3,053/month for ACA medical insurance coverage which covers very little seems unreasonable.
Each of my infusion treatments for my cancer costs over $21,000.
In the past two months, I've had 6 so far.
Over the next year, I'll have at least 4 more.

And that's not even counting all the doctor visits, blood tests, bone marrow biopsies, CT scans, heart tests, etc.
Just out of curiosity, is that the billed amount, or the amount insurance actually pays?
It's the billed amount. I have no idea what I would have to pay out of pocket if I were not well-insured.
Luckily, I have a great insurance plan. Low deductibles, very well subsidized. I pay less now that I did while employed and paying only the employee portion of my healthcare premiums - for a far better plan.

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celia
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by celia » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:09 pm

TwstdSista wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:49 pm
I just wanted to add some anecdotal evidence as to why you should not go without health insurance. We have a HDHP (high deductible health plan) and the husband had to go to the ER (emergency room) on January 8th of this year. Just got our EOB (explanation of benefits) and the hospital billed our insurance $6000 for my husband's three hour ER visit. Our negotiated cost through said insurance? $2500.
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
Medical Bills for 2017: less than $20,000 (if no medical insurance).
OP, I hope you are aware of how medical insurance works. Like TwstdSista says, the provider bills the insurance company for a "high" amount. But the insurance company first adjusts the price to the "contracted" price between the provider and the insurance company. Of that lower amount, you may need to pay a deductible, then a co-pay. If you did not have insurance, you are often responsible for the "higher" billed price.

I can't tell if your $20,000 is the higher "billed" price or is the deductible and co-pay after the price is brought down. It seems to me that if you didn't have insurance, you would have likely be left with medical bills over $28,690. This is a very worthwhile "benefit" of having medical insurance--having the original billed prices chopped in half or more!

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munemaker
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by munemaker » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:03 pm

madbrain wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:09 pm
munemaker wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:41 pm
With any kind of insurance, it is normal to pay more in during any year than you get out. That is the principle of insurance. You are buying security.
This is true of for-profit, individually rated insurance. That is not always true for health insurance, which is nowadays always group (even ACA is effectively segmented in groups). Patients with chronic expensive medical conditions, such as ourselves, receive many times the amount paid in premiums and out-of-pocket costs, year after year. We would effectively die otherwise as there would be no way to afford care.
True, but you are the exception. The more normal circumstance is people pay more in than they receive out.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by curmudgeon » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 pm

A few other thoughts that *might* help for 2018, though they aren't very big levers...

1) You could buy 1 year CDs for your fixed income which only pay interest at end of term (some, but not all 1-yr CDs work this way). That moves the interest into 2019.

2) You could sell bond funds which have a capital loss (maybe to move into CDs for a while, or just to tax-loss harvest).

3) You could also look into any other options for short-term capital loss harvesting, even buying a small bag full of individual volatile stocks to give more opportunity. You need to understand what the limitations would be on applying this against your other income, though.

4) You could try to generate some RE investing tax losses; you probably understand the options/limitations far better than most.

5) Keep in mind that municipal bonds don't help with staying off the ACA cliff, even though they reduce ordinary income taxes.

But sometimes you just have to pay up and move on with life. I have a budget line of $25K per year in my retirement planning for health care pre-medicare. I treat it as a bonus if I don't have to use it.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:26 am

curmudgeon wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 pm
A few other thoughts that *might* help for 2018, though they aren't very big levers...

1) You could buy 1 year CDs for your fixed income which only pay interest at end of term (some, but not all 1-yr CDs work this way). That moves the interest into 2019.

2) You could sell bond funds which have a capital loss (maybe to move into CDs for a while, or just to tax-loss harvest).

3) You could also look into any other options for short-term capital loss harvesting, even buying a small bag full of individual volatile stocks to give more opportunity. You need to understand what the limitations would be on applying this against your other income, though.

4) You could try to generate some RE investing tax losses; you probably understand the options/limitations far better than most.

5) Keep in mind that municipal bonds don't help with staying off the ACA cliff, even though they reduce ordinary income taxes.

But sometimes you just have to pay up and move on with life. I have a budget line of $25K per year in my retirement planning for health care pre-medicare. I treat it as a bonus if I don't have to use it.
Thanks for the great tips.
I have a feeling that my MAGI for 2018 is going to be the size of an elephant and there's no way to keep that elephant from from falling.
One more year.
thanks again,
j :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:28 am

dwickenh wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 pm
Welcome to the ACA subsidy cliff Sandtrap. You should be able to lower your income with IRA contribution as long as you have earned income.

Best of luck,

Dan
Thanks, Dan. Always look forward to your input.
Unfortunately, I think that 2018's income is going to be several times the size of the cliff so theres no way around things.
At least the solace will be that I only have 1 more year to medicare.
Whew!
mahalo,
jim :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:30 am

niceguy7376 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 pm
If I am understanding it right, in the worst case scenario for OP when they dont find any legal methods to reduce the AGI:

OP would have paid $3058 per month for 12 months as premiums = $36K odd
OP has paid around 20K as health insurance expenses (copays and deductibles and what not)
For a grand total of $56K for an income of $65K?
Yes.
This is insane!
Though actually the income is working out to be a bit more.
Nonetheless.
Insane!

j :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 am

Found this:
"Staying off the Obamacare Federal Subsidy Cliff"
https://thefinancebuff.com/stay-under-o ... cliff.html

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dwickenh
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by dwickenh » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:09 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 am
Found this:
"Staying off the Obamacare Federal Subsidy Cliff"
https://thefinancebuff.com/stay-under-o ... cliff.html
Good info in this article, especially the 138% cut off in Medicare expanded states. This is the area of concern for me as I am getting
premium and cost subsidies by keeping my income at 145% with a couple needing to come in just below 30,000. I am so glad I saved a considerable
amount in a taxable account to live on til Medicare in another 18 months or so.
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

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munemaker
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by munemaker » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 am

This helped me a lot in planning for ObamaCare. I also saved a lot in taxable savings that I am drawing on. That way I don't trigger any taxes by selling off any investments, avoiding capital gains. Most of my other assets are tax deferred. You can position yourself well if you plan years in advance.

https://www.gocurrycracker.com/obamacar ... imization/

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 am

Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
So are you saying that if you have big interest and dividends, but no earned income, you are eligible for a big ACA premium subisdy?
No. As I've learned here so far, I think that isn't how it works.
j :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:35 am

dwickenh wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:09 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 am
Found this:
"Staying off the Obamacare Federal Subsidy Cliff"
https://thefinancebuff.com/stay-under-o ... cliff.html
Good info in this article, especially the 138% cut off in Medicare expanded states. This is the area of concern for me as I am getting
premium and cost subsidies by keeping my income at 145% with a couple needing to come in just below 30,000. I am so glad I saved a considerable
amount in a taxable account to live on til Medicare in another 18 months or so.
So does this mean that I am better off paying the apron. $3,000 monthly premium for 2018 and be able to deduct it from my taxes VS continuing the "subsidy" setup and get "dinged" $30,000 retroactively by the ACA and unable to take that deduction?
Is this correct or am I more confused?
j :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:36 am

munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 am
This helped me a lot in planning for ObamaCare. I also saved a lot in taxable savings that I am drawing on. That way I don't trigger any taxes by selling off any investments, avoiding capital gains. Most of my other assets are tax deferred. You can position yourself well if you plan years in advance.

https://www.gocurrycracker.com/obamacar ... imization/
So does this mean that I am better off paying the apron. $3,000 monthly premium for 2018 and be able to deduct it from my taxes VS continuing the "subsidy" setup and get "dinged" $30,000 retroactively by the ACA and unable to take that deduction?
Is this correct or am I more confused?
j :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:40 am

Hockey10 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:11 pm
Sandtrap,

Here is a link to an article that discusses HSA plans (as MP123 mentioned above). I am not an expert, but if your 2017 plan was HSA eligible, you can contribute to it up to April 15 in order to reduce your MAGI for 2017.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... rance.html

Once you get your situation finally sorted out, please follow up and let us know how it turned out. There are many readers who are interested in the topic of going over the subsidy cliff. I wish you well.

p.s. you have been a great resource on Bogleheads since you started posting. If you continue at the current pace (3500+ posts in 15 months), you might even catch livesoft in about 50 years.
Thanks so much for your help. Appreciate the recognition. I'm working toward my graduate degree in "Bogle U." Will take 50 years.

Thanks for the link.
I'm learning.
mahalo,
jim :D

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help? How to deduct in

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:47 am

Thanks everyone for your wonderful help.
I was not aware of all of this and what is called the "ACA Subsidy Cliff".
(The fact that someone, for example, making 90k/year might have to pay 1/3 of their income in medical insurance premiums does not make sense at all.) :shock:

Questions:
1
If I had claimed higher income when originally applying for the ACA coverage, and paid the $3,000/mo premium, would I have been able to deduct it from my taxes?
2
VS now owing nearly that for going over the income limit and "Not" being able to take that as a deduction? Or can I . . . ? :shock:
3
So for 2018 (income will be large) am I better off somehow changing my ACA policy to a "non subsidized" policy and pay the $3,000/month and getting to at least deduct that in my taxes for 2018?
If so, can I just call the "exchange" and change it?

Is this correct or am I now even more confused?

You have our (DW and I) undivided attention, and appreciation.
Thanks so much for your expert help and advice.
mahalo,
jim :D

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:56 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:28 am
dwickenh wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 pm
Welcome to the ACA subsidy cliff Sandtrap. You should be able to lower your income with IRA contribution as long as you have earned income.

Best of luck,

Dan
Thanks, Dan. Always look forward to your input.
Unfortunately, I think that 2018's income is going to be several times the size of the cliff so theres no way around things.
At least the solace will be that I only have 1 more year to medicare.
Whew!
mahalo,
jim :D
Just a reminder, but the solace is that you have substantial income and assets, and can plan for a wonderful retirement. From your previous posting history, I know you know that, and have been generous helping others.

The cost of insurance is, indeed, stunning. We will never qualify for a subsidy, and are grateful for that income. It would be nice to be able to pay for a catastrophic policy if those are ever allowed. We have been very light consumers of health care so far and hope to continue that good fortune.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? ** How to deduct in 2018

Post by lightning » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:22 am

I haven't looked much at deductible medical expenses, but I did a trial run with TT using more than 400% of FPL MAGI and it said the full excess PTC (premium tax credit) shows up on the current year's itemized medical deduction form subject to the 7.5% of AGI limitation. Even though you didn't pay it in 2017, it looks like it is deductible in 2017.

It looks to me that it doesn't matter which option you choose. Pay full premium each month or not. In 2018, there will be higher standard deduction threshold that will come into play so you possibly won't get as much impact from the deduction.

from pub 502:
Premium Tax Credit

You can't include in medical expenses the amount of health insurance premiums paid by or through the premium tax credit. You also can't include in medical expenses any amount of advance payments of the premium tax credit made that you did not have to pay back. However, any amount of advance payments of the premium tax credit that you did have to pay back can be included in medical expenses.
Last edited by lightning on Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? ** How to deduct in 2018

Post by Eric » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:33 am

I hesitate to suggest this, but if you're in good health you could also explore getting a short-term health insurance policy. These are underwritten, non-ACA-compliant insurance policies that provide less coverage than a standard policy. Currently the term is limited to 3 months but the Trump administration has proposed regulations increasing that to 364 days. Possibly that could serve as a bridge to Medicare. Be very careful, though, and study the policy terms closely.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -obamacare

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MP123
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? ** How to deduct in 2018

Post by MP123 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:03 pm

The best way to deduct the premiums would be if you were self employed and had earnings more than the premiums. Then you can write them off on 1040 line 29.

Second best would be if you itemized on Schedule A. Then you can take the amount that exceeds 7.5% of your income as a deduction. You'd really have to consider whether that was better than the new $24K standard deduction though. I also believe it's set to change to 10% of income from 7.5% in 2019 per the passed tax bill.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:27 pm

munemaker wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:03 pm
madbrain wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:09 pm
munemaker wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:41 pm
With any kind of insurance, it is normal to pay more in during any year than you get out. That is the principle of insurance. You are buying security.
This is true of for-profit, individually rated insurance. That is not always true for health insurance, which is nowadays always group (even ACA is effectively segmented in groups). Patients with chronic expensive medical conditions, such as ourselves, receive many times the amount paid in premiums and out-of-pocket costs, year after year. We would effectively die otherwise as there would be no way to afford care.
True, but you are the exception. The more normal circumstance is people pay more in than they receive out.
You would be surprised. 50% of all medical costs are attributed to people with chronic conditions.

I don't know how many people that translates to that receive more in claims than they pay in premium + OOP year after year, but it has to be quite significant, certainly in the millions.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help? How to deduct in

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:29 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:47 am
Thanks everyone for your wonderful help.
I was not aware of all of this and what is called the "ACA Subsidy Cliff".
(The fact that someone, for example, making 90k/year might have to pay 1/3 of their income in medical insurance premiums does not make sense at all.) :shock:
Or, as you found out, somebody making 65k a year might pay 40-45% of their gross income in premium + OOP. Or die if they can't afford that if they have costly chronic conditions. Absolutely makes zero sense. This part of the ACA - the cliff - was ill conceived.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? ** How to deduct in 2018

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:14 pm

MP123 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:03 pm
The best way to deduct the premiums would be if you were self employed and had earnings more than the premiums. Then you can write them off on 1040 line 29.

Second best would be if you itemized on Schedule A. Then you can take the amount that exceeds 7.5% of your income as a deduction. You'd really have to consider whether that was better than the new $24K standard deduction though. I also believe it's set to change to 10% of income from 7.5% in 2019 per the passed tax bill.
I was doing better when I had a R/E development company.
Now that I'm retired, things are different.
I could reverse course and buy apartment buildings again. . . . . :shock:
But, I've gotten attached to the "Bogle Way" and my "Bogle Portfolio".
j :D

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munemaker
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by munemaker » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:19 pm

madbrain wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:27 pm
munemaker wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:03 pm
madbrain wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:09 pm
munemaker wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:41 pm
With any kind of insurance, it is normal to pay more in during any year than you get out. That is the principle of insurance. You are buying security.
This is true of for-profit, individually rated insurance. That is not always true for health insurance, which is nowadays always group (even ACA is effectively segmented in groups). Patients with chronic expensive medical conditions, such as ourselves, receive many times the amount paid in premiums and out-of-pocket costs, year after year. We would effectively die otherwise as there would be no way to afford care.
True, but you are the exception. The more normal circumstance is people pay more in than they receive out.
You would be surprised. 50% of all medical costs are attributed to people with chronic conditions.

I don't know how many people that translates to that receive more in claims than they pay in premium + OOP year after year, but it has to be quite significant, certainly in the millions.
Following the Pareto principle, 20% of the people generate 80% of the medical costs. Yes, very significant. But that would still mean that the vast majority of people do not have such chronic conditions.

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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by munemaker » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:36 am
munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 am
This helped me a lot in planning for ObamaCare. I also saved a lot in taxable savings that I am drawing on. That way I don't trigger any taxes by selling off any investments, avoiding capital gains. Most of my other assets are tax deferred. You can position yourself well if you plan years in advance.

https://www.gocurrycracker.com/obamacar ... imization/
So does this mean that I am better off paying the apron. $3,000 monthly premium for 2018 and be able to deduct it from my taxes VS continuing the "subsidy" setup and get "dinged" $30,000 retroactively by the ACA and unable to take that deduction?
Is this correct or am I more confused?
j :D
I don't know about deducting the premiums; no experience with that.

I don't think you should look at it as being dinged retroactively. You did not accurately estimate your income when you signed up. If you had, you would have paid the $3,000/month (or whatever it works out to) from the start. Since you did not estimate accurately, you now owe the payment to set things right.

And, if you discovered sometime during the year that your income was going to be higher than estimated, you are supposed to file that income change with them and they would have changed your monthly billing accordingly.

Either way, the piper must be paid!

Chief_Engineer
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Chief_Engineer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:13 am

munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:19 pm
madbrain wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:27 pm
You would be surprised. 50% of all medical costs are attributed to people with chronic conditions.

I don't know how many people that translates to that receive more in claims than they pay in premium + OOP year after year, but it has to be quite significant, certainly in the millions.
Following the Pareto principle, 20% of the people generate 80% of the medical costs. Yes, very significant. But that would still mean that the vast majority of people do not have such chronic conditions.
Unless I misunderstand something, for an insurance company to break even, it must take in more in premiums than it pays out in benefits. Therefore, the average consumer will spend more on premiums than they consume in health care. There's no other way around it.

libralibra
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by libralibra » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:25 pm

Chief_Engineer wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:13 am
Unless I misunderstand something, for an insurance company to break even, it must take in more in premiums than it pays out in benefits. Therefore, the average consumer will spend more on premiums than they consume in health care. There's no other way around it.
That used to be true, but now the government has stepped in by taxing others to cover the difference.

TG2
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by TG2 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:00 pm

Chief_Engineer wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:13 am
munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:19 pm
madbrain wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:27 pm
You would be surprised. 50% of all medical costs are attributed to people with chronic conditions.

I don't know how many people that translates to that receive more in claims than they pay in premium + OOP year after year, but it has to be quite significant, certainly in the millions.
Following the Pareto principle, 20% of the people generate 80% of the medical costs. Yes, very significant. But that would still mean that the vast majority of people do not have such chronic conditions.
Unless I misunderstand something, for an insurance company to break even, it must take in more in premiums than it pays out in benefits. Therefore, the average consumer will spend more on premiums than they consume in health care. There's no other way around it.
Not necessarily. Insurance companies also make money by investing the premiums. They can actually pay out more than they take in, yet make a profit from the investment returns.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:31 am

munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:36 am
munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 am
This helped me a lot in planning for ObamaCare. I also saved a lot in taxable savings that I am drawing on. That way I don't trigger any taxes by selling off any investments, avoiding capital gains. Most of my other assets are tax deferred. You can position yourself well if you plan years in advance.

https://www.gocurrycracker.com/obamacar ... imization/
So does this mean that I am better off paying the apron. $3,000 monthly premium for 2018 and be able to deduct it from my taxes VS continuing the "subsidy" setup and get "dinged" $30,000 retroactively by the ACA and unable to take that deduction?
Is this correct or am I more confused?
j :D
I don't know about deducting the premiums; no experience with that.

I don't think you should look at it as being dinged retroactively. You did not accurately estimate your income when you signed up. If you had, you would have paid the $3,000/month (or whatever it works out to) from the start. Since you did not estimate accurately, you now owe the payment to set things right.

And, if you discovered sometime during the year that your income was going to be higher than estimated, you are supposed to file that income change with them and they would have changed your monthly billing accordingly.

Either way, the piper must be paid!
Yes. It's looking like I'll have to do that.
Pay the troll or can't cross the bridge.
Thanks for you help.
mahalo,
jim :D

pshonore
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Re: Need Help Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance Bill for $28,690 and tax liabilities? Confused? Help?

Post by pshonore » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:57 am

TG2 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:00 pm
Chief_Engineer wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:13 am
munemaker wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:19 pm
madbrain wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:27 pm
You would be surprised. 50% of all medical costs are attributed to people with chronic conditions.

I don't know how many people that translates to that receive more in claims than they pay in premium + OOP year after year, but it has to be quite significant, certainly in the millions.
Following the Pareto principle, 20% of the people generate 80% of the medical costs. Yes, very significant. But that would still mean that the vast majority of people do not have such chronic conditions.
Unless I misunderstand something, for an insurance company to break even, it must take in more in premiums than it pays out in benefits. Therefore, the average consumer will spend more on premiums than they consume in health care. There's no other way around it.
Not necessarily. Insurance companies also make money by investing the premiums. They can actually pay out more than they take in, yet make a profit from the investment returns.
Not for health insurance where claims settle quickly, but absolutely true for liability and WC lines of business

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Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by Sandtrap » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:30 pm

Follow up to original post with results of what we ended up doing on my first post to help everyone.

Thanks everyone of your kind help.
mahalo
jim :D

boglesmind
Posts: 151
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Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by boglesmind » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:35 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
Original Post>>
Couple: Age 64
Residence: Arizona
Medical Insurance: ACA - Blue Cross Blue Shield of Arizona (only one available) "Silver Plan"
Monthly payment with ACA "subsidy" $484
Monthly payment if without ACA "subsidy" $3,053.28
Medical Bills for 2017: less than $20,000 (if no medical insurance).

Due to a quirk in our retirement transition (selling business, income went to zero for a short time) DW and I estimated our actual taxable gross :shock: income for 2017 to be "under" the $60,000 threshold for ACA medical insurance premiums. We were quoted $484/month for the "Silver" Plan. Deductibles were high. Coverage was poor.

When doing our taxes for 2017, we found out our gross income was $65,000 (aprox) about $5,000 over the ACA "subsidy" threshold. Now, according to our tax program. We "owe" the ACA $28,690 :shock:
This means that I would have paid less than $20,000 if I did not have medical insurance.
And, $8,690 above that back to the ACA. (Obamacare).

1. This does not make sense to me. $3,053/month for ACA medical insurance coverage which covers very little seems unreasonable. Please explain.

2. There is a huge difference between the monthly premium "subsidized" and "non" at that $60,000 break point. Please explain.

3. If my gross income was only (claimed) $65,000. How can I owe the ACA that much? How do folks survive on this type of system? Did I figure this wrong?

4. I have one more year to Medicare. I have more than enough assets to self insure. Would it be wise to cancel this insane medical insurance policy for one year? Or just expect to pay about $36,000 for medical insurance for DW and I for the coming year?

**(edit - last question added for 2018)

5. So does this mean that I am better off paying the apron. $3,000 monthly premium for 2018 and be able to deduct it from my taxes VS continuing the "subsidy" setup and get "dinged" $30,000 retroactively by the ACA and unable to take that deduction?
Is this correct or am I more confused? :shock: :oops:

Appreciate everyone's help and clarification on this.
DW is upset :shock:
mahalo,
j
End Original Post >>
FOLLOW UP FOR OTHERS TO BENEFIT.
WHAT WE ENDED UP DOING.


Thank you everyone for your wonderful help.
DW and I researched our alternatives to paying $36,000 :shock: for one more year of ACA "Blue Cross Blue Shield" before Medicare eligibility.

Our options were:
1 United Health Care: at $1500/mo. Monthly policy with a catastrophic rider (6 pos renewable), fixed rate indemnity. Not Deductible. PPO. There are also 5 different levels. Our quoted price based on the highest "bundle", "Health Protector Guard" plan + Accident Safeguard Plan + Short Term Medical Plus Elite".

2 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Arizona (offered through IHC below) "short term policy only". Minimal coverage, limited term (less than 3 months > 88 days.

3 IHC Group. "Care Access Plan" Fixed rate indemnity, PPO, No Deductible. Mo to Mo coverage till age 65. Very similar to United Health Care except deductible on the catastrophic rider was $5000 vs $2500, $1350 vs $1500 in premiums for similar coverage, with the "MetalGap it was close".
http://echealthinsurance.com/wp-content ... ochure.pdf

4 IHC Group had 3 plans: "Superior", "Value", and "Economy". We bought the "Superior".

Some broad strokes:
http://www.ihcgroup.com/consumers.aspx

DW and I got the Care Access Plan Superior see attachment and the Metal gap 2 supplemental.
It’s a fixed rate plan with no deductible. Month to month plan, not a short term plan good till we turn 65.

In addition: "Metal Gap 2" (option)(Arizona does not allow plan bundling) includes: ACCIDENT MEDICAL EXPENSE AND ACCIDENTAL DEATH AND
DISMEMBERMENT, Critical Illness and Accident Disability Also a month to month plan valid till age 70 if one chooses.

For $14/mo. more we also have Telemedicine which allows you to see a physician via internet video chat using your laptop and get treatment, change of meds etc without having to go to an office visit. It is available 24/7. This can be cancelled at any time if we think it's not needed.

As far as I know, these types of alternatives were not available to us in 2017 except the 88 day Blue Cross policy. There was nothing outside of the ACA and within that, only 1 policy. United Health Care was not available in 2017 except through an employer.

I hope this is helpful to others.
Thanks again for everyone's kind help.

1 more year till Medicare. Whew!!!!
mahalo,
jim :D
Sandtrap,
Wish you the very best of health so that you and your spouse don't have to use the "IHC Group's Care Access Fixed rate indemnity Plan" for any major or catastrophic illness or accident. You have just one more year to medicare and may get by with the IHC plan.

For others who may be thinking along similar lines, I'd like to point out how bad the IHC group's Care Access Fixed Rate indemnity plan vs. Bronze/Silver/etc plans under affordable care Act. Please correct me if I am wrong.
  • The IHC plan's monthly premium for 2 64-year olds is $1350 (or is it $1500, not clear from Sandtrap's posting) vs $3000 for the silver plan. This is the only benefit I can see.

    *It comes at a huge cost. Please see the IHC brochure linked by the OP. The "plan" just pays a ridiculously low rate for most inpatient and outpatient procedures. Look at the critical illness benefit for cancer etc. It is 10k per person and one can optionally "Buy-up" up to $40,000!!!

    Since it is not an "insurance" plan, it appears that IHC doesn't have *any* negotiated rates with the service providers (doctors etc, hospitals etc, labs etc). For the service provider, you are a cash-only patient and they can bill a person anything they want and that person is up the proverbial creek without a paddle for the balance amount above the fixed indemnity rate that IHC would pay for a covered illness/injury etc.

    "IHC Plan" claims there are no annual or lifetime limits -- extremely misleading that is!!! For example, chemotherapy for cancer is limited to 100 lifetime treatments and IHC would pay up to $300/$600/$900 for economy/value/superior option respectively for each treatment that includes "chemotherapy
    medication and radiation therapy, for the treatment of cancer".

    My take on IHC's plan (based on their brochure which lists the services and the amount they'd pay for) is that a) it costs roughly 40% of the silver plan premiums and provides probably not even 10% of the benefits of a silver plan. The bronze/silver/gold etc plans have a max limit on one's out of pocket expenses and the IHC "plan" has a cap on what IHC will pay for each illness/injury and you are left holding the bag for the balance.

    b) It is not an insurance plan and so one does not benefit from the negotiated rates one can get from a bronze/silver/gold etc plans of the Affordable Care act. As others have pointed out a million times on this forum, one of the main benefits of an insurance plan is the negotiated rates.

    c) We are looking for pre-medicare heath insurance coverage as well, are in excellent health and we won't touch "indemnity" plans with a barge pole. We'll probably go with Bronze plans for about 15K in annual premiums for 2 and similar amount for deductibles (which we wouldn't need to use, I hope)

Boglesmind

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Sandtrap
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Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:12 am

Indemnity vs Managed Care
Interesting Summary/Comparison.
http://www.agencyinfo.net/iv/medical/ty ... anaged.htm
j :D

madbrain
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Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by madbrain » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:17 am

boglesmind wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:35 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:42 pm
Original Post>>
Couple: Age 64
Residence: Arizona
Medical Insurance: ACA - Blue Cross Blue Shield of Arizona (only one available) "Silver Plan"
Monthly payment with ACA "subsidy" $484
Monthly payment if without ACA "subsidy" $3,053.28
Medical Bills for 2017: less than $20,000 (if no medical insurance).

Due to a quirk in our retirement transition (selling business, income went to zero for a short time) DW and I estimated our actual taxable gross :shock: income for 2017 to be "under" the $60,000 threshold for ACA medical insurance premiums. We were quoted $484/month for the "Silver" Plan. Deductibles were high. Coverage was poor.

When doing our taxes for 2017, we found out our gross income was $65,000 (aprox) about $5,000 over the ACA "subsidy" threshold. Now, according to our tax program. We "owe" the ACA $28,690 :shock:
This means that I would have paid less than $20,000 if I did not have medical insurance.
And, $8,690 above that back to the ACA. (Obamacare).

1. This does not make sense to me. $3,053/month for ACA medical insurance coverage which covers very little seems unreasonable. Please explain.

2. There is a huge difference between the monthly premium "subsidized" and "non" at that $60,000 break point. Please explain.

3. If my gross income was only (claimed) $65,000. How can I owe the ACA that much? How do folks survive on this type of system? Did I figure this wrong?

4. I have one more year to Medicare. I have more than enough assets to self insure. Would it be wise to cancel this insane medical insurance policy for one year? Or just expect to pay about $36,000 for medical insurance for DW and I for the coming year?

**(edit - last question added for 2018)

5. So does this mean that I am better off paying the apron. $3,000 monthly premium for 2018 and be able to deduct it from my taxes VS continuing the "subsidy" setup and get "dinged" $30,000 retroactively by the ACA and unable to take that deduction?
Is this correct or am I more confused? :shock: :oops:

Appreciate everyone's help and clarification on this.
DW is upset :shock:
mahalo,
j
End Original Post >>
FOLLOW UP FOR OTHERS TO BENEFIT.
WHAT WE ENDED UP DOING.


Thank you everyone for your wonderful help.
DW and I researched our alternatives to paying $36,000 :shock: for one more year of ACA "Blue Cross Blue Shield" before Medicare eligibility.

Our options were:
1 United Health Care: at $1500/mo. Monthly policy with a catastrophic rider (6 pos renewable), fixed rate indemnity. Not Deductible. PPO. There are also 5 different levels. Our quoted price based on the highest "bundle", "Health Protector Guard" plan + Accident Safeguard Plan + Short Term Medical Plus Elite".

2 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Arizona (offered through IHC below) "short term policy only". Minimal coverage, limited term (less than 3 months > 88 days.

3 IHC Group. "Care Access Plan" Fixed rate indemnity, PPO, No Deductible. Mo to Mo coverage till age 65. Very similar to United Health Care except deductible on the catastrophic rider was $5000 vs $2500, $1350 vs $1500 in premiums for similar coverage, with the "MetalGap it was close".
http://echealthinsurance.com/wp-content ... ochure.pdf

4 IHC Group had 3 plans: "Superior", "Value", and "Economy". We bought the "Superior".

Some broad strokes:
http://www.ihcgroup.com/consumers.aspx

DW and I got the Care Access Plan Superior see attachment and the Metal gap 2 supplemental.
It’s a fixed rate plan with no deductible. Month to month plan, not a short term plan good till we turn 65.

In addition: "Metal Gap 2" (option)(Arizona does not allow plan bundling) includes: ACCIDENT MEDICAL EXPENSE AND ACCIDENTAL DEATH AND
DISMEMBERMENT, Critical Illness and Accident Disability Also a month to month plan valid till age 70 if one chooses.

For $14/mo. more we also have Telemedicine which allows you to see a physician via internet video chat using your laptop and get treatment, change of meds etc without having to go to an office visit. It is available 24/7. This can be cancelled at any time if we think it's not needed.

As far as I know, these types of alternatives were not available to us in 2017 except the 88 day Blue Cross policy. There was nothing outside of the ACA and within that, only 1 policy. United Health Care was not available in 2017 except through an employer.

I hope this is helpful to others.
Thanks again for everyone's kind help.

1 more year till Medicare. Whew!!!!
mahalo,
jim :D
Sandtrap,
Wish you the very best of health so that you and your spouse don't have to use the "IHC Group's Care Access Fixed rate indemnity Plan" for any major or catastrophic illness or accident. You have just one more year to medicare and may get by with the IHC plan.

For others who may be thinking along similar lines, I'd like to point out how bad the IHC group's Care Access Fixed Rate indemnity plan vs. Bronze/Silver/etc plans under affordable care Act. Please correct me if I am wrong.
  • The IHC plan's monthly premium for 2 64-year olds is $1350 (or is it $1500, not clear from Sandtrap's posting) vs $3000 for the silver plan. This is the only benefit I can see.

    *It comes at a huge cost. Please see the IHC brochure linked by the OP. The "plan" just pays a ridiculously low rate for most inpatient and outpatient procedures. Look at the critical illness benefit for cancer etc. It is 10k per person and one can optionally "Buy-up" up to $40,000!!!

    Since it is not an "insurance" plan, it appears that IHC doesn't have *any* negotiated rates with the service providers (doctors etc, hospitals etc, labs etc). For the service provider, you are a cash-only patient and they can bill a person anything they want and that person is up the proverbial creek without a paddle for the balance amount above the fixed indemnity rate that IHC would pay for a covered illness/injury etc.

    "IHC Plan" claims there are no annual or lifetime limits -- extremely misleading that is!!! For example, chemotherapy for cancer is limited to 100 lifetime treatments and IHC would pay up to $300/$600/$900 for economy/value/superior option respectively for each treatment that includes "chemotherapy
    medication and radiation therapy, for the treatment of cancer".

    My take on IHC's plan (based on their brochure which lists the services and the amount they'd pay for) is that a) it costs roughly 40% of the silver plan premiums and provides probably not even 10% of the benefits of a silver plan. The bronze/silver/gold etc plans have a max limit on one's out of pocket expenses and the IHC "plan" has a cap on what IHC will pay for each illness/injury and you are left holding the bag for the balance.

    b) It is not an insurance plan and so one does not benefit from the negotiated rates one can get from a bronze/silver/gold etc plans of the Affordable Care act. As others have pointed out a million times on this forum, one of the main benefits of an insurance plan is the negotiated rates.

    c) We are looking for pre-medicare heath insurance coverage as well, are in excellent health and we won't touch "indemnity" plans with a barge pole. We'll probably go with Bronze plans for about 15K in annual premiums for 2 and similar amount for deductibles (which we wouldn't need to use, I hope)

Boglesmind
IMO, one would be crazy to go for one of those indemnity plans at age 64. Get real insurance, or your entire financial future may be compromised. Yes, the real insurance is horribly expensive if you don't have a subsidy, but that's only for one year until your Medicare eligibility. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. You could lose nearly all your assets to medical debt, and end up going back to work to pay it back.

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Sandtrap
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Location: 10/90 Allocation - Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳

Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:37 am

Research in progress.
Thanks everyone for your continuing help.
j :D

boglesmind
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:07 pm

Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by boglesmind » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:36 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:12 am
Indemnity vs Managed Care
Interesting Summary/Comparison.
http://www.agencyinfo.net/iv/medical/ty ... anaged.htm
j :D
Looks like the comparison does disservice to folks who want to really compare and understand the differences. Indemnity plans are not "health insurance plans", do not have negotiated rates and leave the buyer with a false sense of security and open them up to financial ruin. Lack of truth in advertising is hurting / will hurt more Americans and I am afraid we may expect to see a raise in stories about families bankrupted by medical bills when they through thought they had insurance.

boglesmind
Last edited by boglesmind on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sandtrap
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Location: 10/90 Allocation - Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳

Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Follow Up Solutions until Medicare to help oth

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:53 pm

boglesmind wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:36 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:12 am
Indemnity vs Managed Care
Interesting Summary/Comparison.
http://www.agencyinfo.net/iv/medical/ty ... anaged.htm
j :D
Looks like the comparison does disservice to folks who want to really compare and understand the differences. Indemnity plans are not "health insurance plans", do not have negotiated rates and leave the buyer with a false sense of security and open them up to financial ruin. Lack of truth in advertising is hurting / will hurt more Americans and I am afraid we may expect to see a raise in stories about families bankrupted by medical bills when they through they had insurance.

boglesmind
Yes. It is a quagmire. As misleading as financial services.
While investment finance and R/E development is in my "wheelhouse", medical insurance is not. And, probably for many others.
As DW and I are discovering, there's more deception than what's found at a "used car lot".
The quicksand is deep, indeed.

Thanks for your ongoing help.
j :D

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MP123
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Re: Understanding 2017 ACA Insurance >> Alternative to ACA until age 65 >>Possible Solutions??

Post by MP123 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:30 pm

If the indemnity plan doesn't have negotiated rates with providers (and I don't think it does) then it's a very bad deal. Negotiated rates are usually 1/3 or less or what the provider would charge someone that wasn't insured. So not only would you have a low insurance limit for each incident but you'd also be paying way more for them.

The indemnity plan is just saying "If you break your leg we'll give you a check for $5,000 and you can go find a doctor to fix it." Not good at all.

I'd look at a Bronze level HSA compatible plan. Pretty much the lowest rates of any ACA plan plus you can put $7900 (over 55) in an HSA account and deduct it from your AGI. Downside is high deductibles.

You've only got 1 year to go so I'd just suck it up and get a "real" insurance plan!

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