Working in the real world

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Shikoku
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Location: USA

Re: Working in the real world

Post by Shikoku » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:28 am

KlingKlang,
You have an MS in engineering and an MBA in MIS as well as you probably have over two decades of experience in your field considering your daughter has already graduated from college. You are in excellent position to easily earn a six figure salary if you move to another geographical area where there is a higher demand of your expertise. However, you are sacrificing earning for family reason, and that is certainly a conscious decision your family has made.

My non-profit governmental employer allows a particular group of employees to spend one day per week doing consultancy. Some of my colleagues who have good outside connections earn an additional 40-50% of their salary from consultancy and another 30-40% by taking extra work responsibility with the employer. If those colleagues of mine go part-time, they will not have any difficulty to earn $80K/year.

I have friends in my field who work in the west coast making over $250K/year but many of those jobs come with high-level of stress. And I am not one of them. My base salary has barely reached to a six figure number last year after 15 years of service with this employer. I have decided to sacrifice earning in favor of a low stress lifestyle. I have the flexibility not to be at my workplace more than 10 hours/week if I choose. I do not have anyone any say on the projects I work on. I have very little or no boss. I know I will not be laid off unless I do something shockingly wrong. I have not seen or heard about any age discrimination at my workplace as some of my colleagues have been here for 30-40 years. My employer contributes 16% of base salary to my tax-deferred account irrespective of my contributions.

You are not crazy, and you can certainly earn more if you move to a better location. In real world, your education and experience can earn you $75K/year or it can earn you $1M/year if you are at the right place at the right time. I guess, that is true for many forum members.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett

msk
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by msk » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:33 am

Possibly actionable:
Your daughter who works in finance. Many business/accountancy graduates believe that they ought to make the same as Accountants. Not true! One of my daughters with a BCom from a top university worked for a Fortune 10 company for several years and was even evaluated by the CEO as highly promising. Being recognized as a high flyer she had been posted to Shareholder Relations in her early 20s, hence frequent contact/exposure to the CEO. On return to her usual operating subsidiary in a LCOL area she was making around $80k, quite decent for a decade ago and age 28. But she was told in no uncertain terms that to get to Finance Controller/Director level she needed an Accountancy certification. Took 6 months off because she hated accounting as a subject and obtained the precious Accountancy certification. Went back to work but within months she moved to a smaller company at $170k. Her job never actually changed from general finance, but the paper qualification made all the difference to the salary package. Worked a couple of years and retired at age 31! Had made mucho $ from RE. She is now 41 and an accountancy firm is pleading with her to please come to work, even part time, from home. This is all in a LCOL area. IF there is a shortage of certified Accountants in your area and IF your kid is a college grad without certification (those who are certified to sign off company accounts) then your daughter ought to look at that avenue.

Less attractive: Income levels shoot through the roof the more unpopular a location is. Youngsters who want high income but have low skill/experience levels, ever thought of Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.? There is always a war-torn messed-up place where US companies (actually any multi-nationals) are desperate for all levels of talent but who are familiar with technical standards, etc. Most of these places are not as dangerous as the 24 hour news cycle depicts them :moneybag

inbox788
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by inbox788 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:00 am

EddyB wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 pm
rob65 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:50 pm
Only 7% of US households make more than $200,000 per year. Less than 30% make $100,000.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-survey ... ableA1.xls
But that's a lot of households above $200,000, nearly 10 million. Is it really shocking that a forum about investing, with less than 1% that many members, has so many people on that end of the distribution?
Not sure why you're so shocked. Folks with less money are less inclined to be interested in investing. Just heard today that 1/6 millennials has saved up over $100,000, fighting the myth that millennials are not saving. Would it surprise you that the majority of millennials on this board have more than $100,000? It would surprise me if it wasn't.

The real working world is chaotic, but there is an order. Does a worker do something unique and irreplaceable or can anyone off the street be trained to do the task? Special skills and abilities that are in demand (hence programmers and not artists) garner high paying jobs. Yet even in commodity jobs, there are rational and irrational differences. Often, you must be wiling to seek out and move to the better opportunities or learn new skills. Few minimum wage jobs are good careers, and many jobs are the equivalent of minimum wage jobs for that industry. Some bank tellers may become bankers, but most are stuck if that's their only skill set, and with technology (ATMs), theirs skills are less in demand. Self checkout stations are threatening cashiers. And self driving cars will threaten all driving jobs, not just taxi cabs, but delivery drivers, truck drivers, bus drivers, etc.

http://time.com/4555692/san-francisco-b ... or-salary/
https://abovethelaw.com/2014/05/in-what ... osecutors/
http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/law- ... 415077-exc

CurlyDave
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by CurlyDave » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:47 am

There may be a lesson in here many are overlooking.

DW and I lived in a VHCOL area, and had salaries and savings commensurate with that.

When we retired we moved to a medium-low COL area and are clearly in the very upper income strata in our new location, even with only retirement income. And we like the area.

There is more than one way to skin the retirement cat, and I like the way we did it. Sure, we had to put up with the issues of a VHCOL area, but having done that, we are in pretty good shape where we are. We would never be able to afford to more back after 10 years of inflation, but unless someone invents an aging reversal process, we are never going to want to move back.

denovo
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by denovo » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:33 am

KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:31 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:25 pm
KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:16 pm
I realize that this is basically a vent but sometimes I wonder if I am crazy or everyone else is.
Where do you live? All the jobs sound low to me. My nephew started as an accounting dept employee (b.s. In business) at $45k per year and at least 3 weeks vacation. He works 40-45 hrs a week.
NE Ohio. That explains a lot, but my wife and I have 90 year old mothers that we need to be close to.
That answers your opening post then I think.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

Hug401k
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Hug401k » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:12 am

I really can't stress cost of living enough. My step sister and her husband live Ohio. They own a house with land that would cost $1M in the metrowest Boston area. I believe they paid $172k about 10 years ago. My old mega corp had an office in Kentucky/Ohio and Metrowest Boston. Ohio would transfer to the Boston area under NO circumstances due to a calculated pay cut of 35% just due to cost of housing and childcare.

A lot of this is cost of living adjusted. Don't underestimate the impact. Now your wife's position, she's just being taken advantage of.

dcd72
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by dcd72 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:04 am

Archimedes wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:33 pm
I live in a VHCOL area. Some would say the numbers around here are so crazy that we are living on another planet. The salaries at the company where I work cover a wide range.

There are part time workers who are college students who make $14/hour. But they are learning important skills and gaining experience that will lead to high salaries in the future.

Support staff here are earning about 60k, and all have bachelors degrees.

And the highly educated workers with advanced degrees earn from 120k to 400k. They make up the majority of the workers in our company. I would venture a ballpark guess that the median salary here at this company is 200k.

For this area, this is the real world. But the cost of living is also very high. A one bedroom apartment costs about 1300/month, and that is a starting rent for a modest, older apartment without amenities.

I have multiple advanced degrees and highly developed analytical skills. I have a side gig where I do consulting. The demand is so high but my personal time is valuable and I turn down many requests. I charge 500/hour for consulting services. It does feel kind of crazy that one can earn that kind of money, but that is the reality.

Yes, I am in the 1% as are most of my coworkers. And it appears that many bogleheads are in the top echelons of our society in terms of education and earnings. But there are plenty of smart folks earning more modest salaries on this forum as well. Even though earnings and background may vary significantly, there is so much that I have learned from a broad variety of posters.
It's all about perspective, isn't it? You say you live in a VHCOL area, and so a modest 1 BR apartment costs $1300/month. But in Washington, DC, that doesn't exist, or if it does it's in an area that most would shudder to live in. I expect in NYC, SF, and perhaps Boston, rents are even higher.

investingdad
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by investingdad » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:23 am

KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:16 pm
First of all I want to apologize for an emotional reaction that I had to a previous post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239049. It was due to a claim that someone could make $80k/year working part time in semiretirement.

I understand that many of the posters on this board are medical professionals or work in government jobs. Nevertheless the claims that people make for their incomes and benefits are so out of line with my experience that I sometimes question them.

I have a BS and MS in engineering and an MBA in MIS. I was employed as a factory automation engineer, my maximum salary was $76k/year which I only received for 3 months of back pay after my last layoff in 2014. I never received more than 3 weeks vacation nor better than a 50% match on 6% for my 401(k), most of the time less or nothing.

My wife is a high school graduate who made $15k/year as a bank clerk in the 70s before we were married. Since then she has worked miscellaneous retail jobs and took 10 years off to stay at home with our daughter. She has never had any retirement benefits. She is currently working 38 hours/week at an Asian dry cleaners but only gets paid for 22 hours/week at $10.35/hour so that they don't have to pay her any benefits. I have begged her to quit for years and now she has promised to do so after some unpleasant incidents at work.

My daughter has a BA in accounting/finance and earns $48k/year at a large corporation with 7 days of vacation/year working over 50 hours a week.

My daughter's boyfriend has an engineering degree and earns $42k/year at a small corporation working over 70 hours a week including travel.

I realize that this is basically a vent but sometimes I wonder if I am crazy or everyone else is.
The engineering starting salary seems very low to me.

My first engineering job in 1996 paid 33k a year in the burbs of Philly. That's 53k in 2017 dollars. I was a ChemE with so so grades. Small company.

stoptothink
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:28 am

I've been accused so many times on this board that I am flat out lying about either my job title or salary (that it is unrealistically low) so many times that I lost count. I'm a director in a health products company that is the largest employer in the industry (~4k employees). At 36, I am the 2nd youngest director in the company, I have a STEM PhD and a laundry list of related professional certifications, and I make low (very low) six-figures. I am aware that my employer is somewhat conservative with compensation, but I know exactly what the industry pays as our largest competitor has been trying to get me to migrate for about a year (never going to happen) and a close friend holds my same position at another competitor - my salary is fairly competitive. At this point, if I stay (which I strongly intend to do), senior director is almost a given within the next 4yrs and there is a strong chance that in 6-7yrs I'll hit VP within another segment of our company which is just starting out. Even should I reach that level, $200k/yr isn't all that likely. I also have 4 STEM PhDs on my staff, none of which make 6-figures and likely never will unless they get into management.

No doubt, tech (which is strongly represented on this board) is a total outlier when it comes to compensation. My wife is in enterprise sales for a ~400 employee data security firm. No degree (but she is a full-time student) and had no prior experience in the industry as of 3yrs ago and she makes nearly what I do. She is also a super high producer and gets job offers seemingly weekly, some which offer more (but not that much more and none with the same opportunity for work/life balance). Begrudgingly there are staff at her company, without degrees, who make more than I do, but the salaries aren't anywhere close to what you see stated all the time on this board. Both the CEO and CTO of her company are close family friends and we have a good idea of what they make. Granted we are in a MCOL area (Utah Valley, Utah - the "Silicon Slopes"), but it is still one of the fastest growing tech sectors in the nation and salaries tend to be more in-line with what you see on glassdoor than the (IMO) outlandish numbers your regularly see stated on this board.

This board quite clearly doesn't represent the general public. There are a lot more people here in VHCOL areas and in high-paying fields such as medicine, law, and tech, and there is no doubt a disproportionate amount of high achievers and total outliers on an investing board, but IMO there are also a lot of people who aren't truthful about what they make. That's the internet. No matter what forum you are on, you are going to see a significant amount of contributors who get a kick out of impressing a bunch of anonymous strangers, even if that means being a little generous with the claims. Not my thing, but it is human nature.

I also, as another poster alluded to earlier, get a huge kick out of the posters who can't believe that other families could even survive on less than $100k/yr or that they'll need $150k/yr in retirement or they'll be eating cat food. With a 15yr mortgage, one child in full-time daycare and another part-time, paying church tithing, and paying full-time tuition for my wife (granted, university tuition in Utah is literally the cheapest in the country), our total household expenditures were ~$50k in 2017. We're simple people, who both grew up in poverty and have been very cognizant about lifestyle creep and not keeping up with the Joneses, but we have a great life and want for nothing.

OP, I totally understand. Take everything you read on the internet with a massive grain of salt and don't let it influence how you feel about your own situation. There is a lot to learn here, from a lot of brilliant people.

bloom2708
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Location: Fargo, ND

Re: Working in the real world

Post by bloom2708 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:45 am

This reminds me of a post I've started several times but never finished. I call it "Anchors". The various things in life that anchor you to a geographic location.

Extended family, schools, independent kids, aging parents, employment, church etc.

When we were pregnant with our first kid in 1999, my grandmother turned 90. My parents were close to retiring early in their low 50s. They had big plans to get somewhere warmer, see the country, live a little. But, they didn't want to leave the small area because my grandma was there. I said many times, a 90 year old grandmother can move with you. They decided to wait. She lived to 107.5. They waited. Now my parents are mid 70s. Health starting to fail.

Lower paying job areas, smaller communities. They can be great. But, you have to be satisfied with what you can earn and spend accordingly. If it isn't working you have to be able to pull up those anchors and find a way to re-invent whatever needs to change. Easier said than done I know.

I'm sure there are studies and books on topics like why do some families spread out and others stay in a general small area. Why are some willing to move around/take risks while others stay put, choose the path of least resistance, settle for known.

Probably not the exact point of the topic, but OP seems anchored. I understand. My 47th long, cold winter makes me feel anchored. :annoyed
"People want confirmation, not advice" Unknown | "We are here to provoke thoughtfulness, not agree with you" Unknown | Four words: Whole food, plant based

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:48 am

Those salaries seem very low to me. I'm in the Boston area and at my last job, the executives would laugh about how cheaply they got engineers out of college who didn't know any better. BSEE and BSME would start at $60k. Our best friend's son graduated last spring from a good upstate NY college and now works for a defense contractor in the Boston area and started at $75k with a BSME.

I do have friends in Texas and hear the salaries there, which are much lower than in Boston and the cost of living is also much lower.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

surveyor
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by surveyor » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:59 am

What kind of engineer? I just hired a civil w/15 years experience for triple that north of Columbus. Starting salaries in Indiana for graduates tend to be around 60k though they are lower, ie 50k, when you get outside of the bigger cities. 43k for a degreed engineer of any type working in engineering seems really low.

You really need to explore your options. If not for you, for the kids.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:10 am

MathWizard wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:01 pm
A quick google search returns:
The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2017 that real median household
income was $59,039 in 2016, exceeding any previous year.
This board is about investing, so these are people who have the money and the inclination to invest.

This naturally skews the income towards the higher end.

Not everyone on this board is making huge salaries, but the vast majority have household incomes
above the median, so they have enough to invest.
Yes.
And. It's all relative.
There are those in UHCOL areas with large salaries that are struggling, and others with moderate incomes in ULCOL areas that are doing extremely well and building wealth.
Those that are renting and can barely save a dime despite frugality because of low wages and low skillsets or other reasons will more likely be on MMM or are not even aware that such sites exist. The great majority of folks have little left after making the car payment on the last day of the month.
Those that remain of the "Bogle Forum", let alone the one's that are active posters, represent a very unique and small part of the greater "bell curve".
It is easy to lose context within any one forum to the exclusion of others, etc.
j :D
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

deltaneutral83
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by deltaneutral83 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:13 am

Household Incomes of $400k in CA/Bos/NY have to factor in VHCOL and taxes, both fed/state (property too). If COL is 2.2x in Bos/NY ( I think Bay area is an outlier) as to where you are now in a LCOL/MCOL, then that has to be baked in. Housing costs alone are probably 3x and make up the biggest expese of the household budget. Household $150k down south in a suburb of ATL/CLT vs. $400k in Boston/NY probably aren't as far off as you think from the sticker shock of $400k/$150k in standard of living.

oilrig
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by oilrig » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:24 am

OP, if you want to make more money then you need to work for the industries that pay more money. For example, recent engineering grads at my company (large oil company) start out at $102k + 20% bonus + pension and other perks like sign ons and relocation bonuses. This is a pretty typical compensation package for recent engineer grads at other oil companies as well.

I would imagine starting salaries for engineers at the big tech companies are much higher than the oil companies. Same goes for starting salaries for management consultants at the big 3 firms.

In short, follow the money!

quantAndHold
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by quantAndHold » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:32 am

A couple of random thoughts about what has been said so far in this thread.

Tech salaries: Yes, people make that much. I made $280k the last year I worked (2016). In Seattle. The entry level guys made about $180k that year. Keep in mind that tech compensation is heavily weighted in stock, so the people reporting those salaries are working for the tech companies that are on a tear in the stock market. When the market crashes, they make much less. Most of my career I took home about half of what I made in the last few years. I recognized the exceptions (dotcom bubble and recently) for what they were, and managed to keep the money. Others weren’t (and won’t be) so lucky.

That $15k 1970’s salary would be about $60k in 2017 dollars. Not bad at all.

Wife needs to talk to a labor lawyer.

The best way to destroy your earning potential is to get a PhD. San Diego (where I spent most of my career) has a lot of biotech. It’s common to see a company recruiting software engineers with a BS in computer science and 5 years of programming experience for $125k, or PhD in some hard science and 5 years of programming experience for $85k. Same company.

LawEgr1
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:34 pm

Re: Working in the real world

Post by LawEgr1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:49 am

Agreed on the posts related to Engineering.

Engineering, like most fields, is so diverse and dependent on one's personality, skillset, industry, ability to capitalize on opportunity, market / location, etc.

A mechanical, civil, electrical, computer, and chemical all have several different career path opportunities. Depending on all of the factors I mentioned above, salaries will vary greatly. I moved to a more HCOL to work with larger organizations and it's worked well for me. I've found there isn't much better for an organization to have an engineer who is technically competent, continues to learn, isn't weird and can communicate well. Seems like you have the continues to learn aspect but I am unable to judge everything else. Then it falls on all of the variables above in order to increase compensation. I've also been willing to move and have had long term assignments away from home. If I stayed in my home state, I promise I'd be making at least 25k less than what I make now with less opportunities for growth.

That said, everyone has to work within the constraints of what they feel is best for them. Only one person here knows that answer.

fourkids
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by fourkids » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:04 pm

Your daughter and her boyfriend need to move to a city, for their own good and career growth. Even though they have great degrees, they will be severely limited staying in NE Ohio.
Tell them to move to Chicago, Cinci, Indy, etc for a few years, build their careers and salaries. Honestly, they may end up maybe 10x more in a good city than in NE Ohio.

blmarsha123
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by blmarsha123 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 pm

To the OP ...

I know that you probably know this but maybe worth repeating ... My suggestion is to cherry pick Bogleheads like you would most other things. Spend less time (regularly) reading Personal Investing and Person Finance and do most of your reading in PCI and Theory, which I find educational, fascinating and entertaining. Try not to compare yourself to others; use the hints and tips that make sense in your situation. And always remember that there are many more genuinely helpful, sharing people here than not.

But I do understand where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel like screaming when I see another one of those "We have two government COLA pensions and 2.6M after tax in 60/40, change our sponges once a year and spend $250 per month on food including eating out. Do you think that we can live on 2% and not run out of money" threads. You are not alone.

setnsettled
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by setnsettled » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:49 pm

blmarsha123 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 pm
Sometimes I feel like screaming when I see another one of those "We have two government COLA pensions and 2.6M after tax in 60/40, change our sponges once a year and spend $250 per month on food including eating out. Do you think that we can live on 2% and not run out of money" threads. You are not alone.
lol.
+1

stoptothink
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

setnsettled wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:49 pm
blmarsha123 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 pm
Sometimes I feel like screaming when I see another one of those "We have two government COLA pensions and 2.6M after tax in 60/40, change our sponges once a year and spend $250 per month on food including eating out. Do you think that we can live on 2% and not run out of money" threads. You are not alone.
lol.
+1
+2. Ironically, with our mindsets, my wife and I may be on this path sooner than later although we'll never reach some of the stated salaries we see here all the time. I hope we have the strength to just stop when we have "enough". "Enough" for us isn't that much.

bhsince87
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by bhsince87 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:22 pm

Here's some real world salary info for you. I was an engineering manager for 20+ years. In a particualr niche in the elctronics industry, private sector, manufacturing/tech. Our pay is highly dependent on location and skill set.

Current office in average cost of living area in PA has about 25 engineers. Most are BSEEs from public universities (Big Ten). Entry level is $65k, 5 years in $80k, 10 years 100k, 15 years $120k, and that's about where it celings out. MS or PHd doesn't effect pay at all. Its OJT that counts.
A mehanical engineer will make about 80% of that, because there is less demand (at this poit in time, at least)

For the exact same positions at our HQ in Indiana, with a similar cost of living, the equivalant pay is $50k, $70k, $85k, and $100k.

Why are salaries lower in IN? Because there is almosst zero local competition. In PA, there are 7-8 competitors in the same business within about an hours drive. So folks can change jobs much more easily, and that drives salaries up.

A our office in Silicon Valley, 5 years experience would pay $150k, and teh top end is about $300k. For the exact same jobs! Except we don't do entry level hires there.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace." Samuel Adams

setnsettled
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by setnsettled » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:30 pm

Thinking about the OP's daughter and boyfriend.

Skills matter. Willingness to relocate matters (A lot!). Being aware of The Money Game – knowing what you’re going for $ wise when you’re getting those skills and moving around – matters. Luck matters.

But IMO there’s a truth about income that’s not being mentioned. Relationships matter.

I’ve been very “lucky” in career, in life really. But a lot of what looked like luck was actually just who I knew, their willingness to help me get ahead and as time went on my helping other people. It became a feedback loop.

While I can say honestly that my hard work and skills were the basis, it’s also true that people like me, because I’m a good guy. Interested, loyal, appropriate. A good listener. Not abrasive or overly concerned with “being right”. Blah blah blah… the usual stuff in a Good Guy. It took training – I am by nature kind of a bastard who loves being right way too much - which is why I owe my entire life to my wife!

Anyway, once I started my career I always looked for relationships with people who would look out for me and further my career. There’s nothing more disheartening that hitching your wagon to someone who is not looking out for your interests. I actually took more than a few projects more for who was there than the work itself. Not that I sabotaged myself, simply given a choice of a bit more money/shorter hours/more “interesting” work vs working with a good guy/team I would always go with the later. As time went on the other things came along anyway. And I had a group of folks who knew me, my work, and would look me up/recommend me when other things came up.

I always advise young people to really LOOK at who they’re working for/with. Figure out who they are, what they want, where they’re going. And cultivate professional relationships with those who are akin to you value and goal wise. Not in a sleazy or phony way. In a recognition of mutual interest that will reward both of you. This actually goes hand in hand with relocation – you’ve often got to be willing to move to really take advantage of opportunities offered by your ‘network’, IMO. Was true in the 80s/90s and from everything I’ve heard it’s even moreso today.

perl
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by perl » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:40 pm

Talking about "the real world" is almost always insulting because everyone lives in the real world.

Wealthy professionals live in the real world. Poor migrant farmworkers also live in the real world. New York lawyers work in the real world. Northeast Ohio engineers also work in the real world. Professors constantly have their work dismissed as not "real." Wealthy Americans are stereotyped as "out of touch with reality."

Of course lower income makes saving and investing more challenging. Of course poverty is vastly more difficult than wealth. But it's all real.

Afty
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Afty » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:49 pm

You can confirm salary data for specific job roles and locations through sites like Glassdoor. You don't have to take our word for it. IMO you, your daughter, and your daughter's boyfriend seem underpaid given your degrees and job roles. You can check Glassdoor and see if that is the case, and use it as data to argue for a raise, or consider looking for different jobs.

Your wife should file suit against her employer.

Finridge
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Finridge » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:02 pm

KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:16 pm
First of all I want to apologize for an emotional reaction that I had to a previous post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239049. It was due to a claim that someone could make $80k/year working part time in semiretirement.

I understand that many of the posters on this board are medical professionals or work in government jobs. Nevertheless the claims that people make for their incomes and benefits are so out of line with my experience that I sometimes question them.

I have a BS and MS in engineering and an MBA in MIS. I was employed as a factory automation engineer, my maximum salary was $76k/year which I only received for 3 months of back pay after my last layoff in 2014. I never received more than 3 weeks vacation nor better than a 50% match on 6% for my 401(k), most of the time less or nothing.

My wife is a high school graduate who made $15k/year as a bank clerk in the 70s before we were married. Since then she has worked miscellaneous retail jobs and took 10 years off to stay at home with our daughter. She has never had any retirement benefits. She is currently working 38 hours/week at an Asian dry cleaners but only gets paid for 22 hours/week at $10.35/hour so that they don't have to pay her any benefits. I have begged her to quit for years and now she has promised to do so after some unpleasant incidents at work.

My daughter has a BA in accounting/finance and earns $48k/year at a large corporation with 7 days of vacation/year working over 50 hours a week.

My daughter's boyfriend has an engineering degree and earns $42k/year at a small corporation working over 70 hours a week including travel.

I realize that this is basically a vent but sometimes I wonder if I am crazy or everyone else is.
As someone else said here in another thread: "Comparison is the thief of joy." It's natural for us to compare ourselves to other people, but it just makes us unhappy.

Going back to the original thread, I saw that there was NOT a claim made in that thread that "somebody" (singular) could make $80,000 a year in semi-retirement. $80,000 a year was with BOTH of them working part-time. So each would only be making $40,000 year on average. That should make you feel better.

Lots of good points have been made about others regarding salaries in HCOL areas being higher, the importance of having in-demand degrees and skill-sets, being able to re-locate, etc.

When you adjust for cost of living, it's probably easier to live on $40,000 in certain parts of Ohio then $80,000 in San Francisco.

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Pajamas
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Pajamas » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:07 pm

perl wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:40 pm
Talking about "the real world" is almost always insulting because everyone lives in the real world.

Wealthy professionals live in the real world. Poor migrant farmworkers also live in the real world. New York lawyers work in the real world. Northeast Ohio engineers also work in the real world. Professors constantly have their work dismissed as not "real." Wealthy Americans are stereotyped as "out of touch with reality."

Of course lower income makes saving and investing more challenging. Of course poverty is vastly more difficult than wealth. But it's all real.
I think "the real world" was intended to contrast with people possibly exaggerating on posts on online message boards, although I wouldn't want to speak for KlingKlang. What he actually said in the first post:
I understand that many of the posters on this board are medical professionals or work in government jobs. Nevertheless the claims that people make for their incomes and benefits are so out of line with my experience that I sometimes question them.
One of the things that this thread and some others highlight is that there is a broad range of income and wealth in the U.S. and that it is easy to live in a bubble and not even know it. Even if you have lived in different parts of the country and gone to school with, worked with, befriended and generally interacted with people from other socioeconomic classes, it is still possible that you might think you are not in a bubble but still be in a bubble.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by snowman » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:10 pm

Maybe little off topic, but last year I read "Coming Apart" - excellent and highly recommended book by Charles Murray. It was eye-opening!

The median household income in the US is almost meaningless number. Author goes deep into social fabric of America over the last 50 years, which explains not only "the bubble" in which vast majority of BHs live, but also how and where they formed, why they are getting bigger every year, and why most people living in those bubbles don't consider themselves wealthy, or even well-off. It's just a daily reality for them, because they do not generally interact with people outside of their bubble, and neither do their children.

I too just roll my eyes when I see yet another thread like "I only have 2.9M saved and 90K/year pension starting next year - do you think I can retire now or do I need to work 20 more years if my expenses are $110K/year?" But I accept it and don't judge - clearly these are people in the bubble talking to other people in the bubble (some of whom will respond that if it were them, they would work at least 10 more years just to be really sure they can survive the retirement).

My advise to OP is this - do not compare yourself to others! You might just treasure things other than money (like relationships) more than other people. You may already have more than other people earning twice as much. It's all relative, we all have different values. I cannot judge your specific income level (other posters did that already anyway), but I do agree that if you want to earn more, you need to consider moving where the money is (a.k.a, the bubble). Matter of fact, my next door neighbor moved his family of 6 from OH 2 years ago. They came for the money (nice promotion), they like it here, but they complain how expensive our housing is, and that they miss their family back in OH! As I said before - it's all relative.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by fposte » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:18 pm

blmarsha123 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 pm

I know that you probably know this but maybe worth repeating ... My suggestion is to cherry pick Bogleheads like you would most other things. Spend less time (regularly) reading Personal Investing and Person Finance and do most of your reading in PCI and Theory, which I find educational, fascinating and entertaining. Try not to compare yourself to others; use the hints and tips that make sense in your situation. And always remember that there are many more genuinely helpful, sharing people here than not.
As one of the lower-income people here, I totally agree with the cherry-picking. I actually do get a lot from Personal Investing and Personal Finance, but it's on very specific threads; that's okay to me, because I could hardly read all the threads anyway. I also find it useful, since I'm doing better than many in an LCOL area, to have Bogleheads as a contrast to remind me I'm neither uberrich nor uberpoor.

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Pajamas
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Pajamas » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:22 pm

snowman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:10 pm
Maybe little off topic, but last year I read "Coming Apart" - excellent and highly recommended book by Charles Murray. It was eye-opening!
Might as well give the full title if you are going to so wholeheartedly recommend that particular book and author.

Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010

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KlingKlang
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by KlingKlang » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:31 pm

Thank you for all of the replies. Again I apologize for what was basically a kneejerk reaction to someone who I thought was trivializing the effort needed to generate discretionary earned income.

I was laid off in 2014 and do not expect to work again due to some major health problems. My wife has committed to giving notice quitting her job this spring so that situation should be resolved shortly. Thanks in part to the advice from this board our investments are plenty to support us for the rest of our lives, they have increased substantially more than my previous annual income this month alone. I am actually trying to keep our MAGI low in order to qualify for ACA benefits (please don't start a discussion on the morality of this).

ND Fan 1
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by ND Fan 1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:37 pm

Wanted to chime in on this interesting thread. Wife and I are early 30s, living in a Midwest state very close to Ohio. We live back in our hometown after being away for 7 years while I was active duty. Separated and now am a Full Time National Guardsmen, so government employee. Wife is an nurse who works about 12-15 hrs per week, and combined we brought in $120K gross last year with total expenses including taxes, of $57K, so we saved roughly half our gross. We have 3 children under the age of 5.

Here is where "Comparison is the thief of joy." I think we are absolutely rich and I have everything I could possible need. Sometimes my wife compares us to others and feels we may be behind. She see my buddies from college (see username) who are doing much better than me. Or she assumes b/c of where I went to school, and having a MBA, I could be making a ton more. Her Dad is a pharmacist who brings home $180K (dude works like 70 hrs a week) or so and I will never it make it there at my current duty station. So at times, she compares us to my college peers, and her Dad and feels a bit lacking. All, I do is remind her how well we are compared to most of the country, and bring her back to reality. Then we kiss our babies, and count our blessings.

I grew up in a family with 12 siblings, and my Dad (RIP), worked his tail off at 2 jobs, and maybe grossed $50K once. Literally, worked up till the day he died at the age of 62. We were "poor" but I had an incredible childhood and never lacked essentials, my parents always gave us what we needed, not too mentioned siblings who are still my best friends (11 of 12 all live in our hometown still). So on paper we were about as poor as they come, in reality, we were/are extremely blessed.

I know this is a random internet forum, but resisting the temptation to compare yourself to others, really can make a big difference in happiness.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by TOJ » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm

I had to:

- move away from a LCOL city I love to a MCOL city I don't particularly care for
- change jobs twice
- have a long commute
- work in THE boom and bust industry

In order to cross just barely into 6 figure territory. Worth it though. Can provide for my family and save for the future. $40-60k is not going to fund a SAHM/single income lifestyle with any money to save leftover at the end of the month.

Totally anecdotal, but the majority of people I know are not willing to move cities or jobs. They want what they know. All of my significant pay increases came from a job move. You have to want it; can't get lax and comfortable.

EDIT: I too am astounded by the levels of income around here, but I don't think there is much embellishment going on. I do like the "going to single 6-figure income" threads. People raise families on $50k/yr. They won't retire at 50, but you mostly lose that dream as soon as you add kids in the first place.
Last edited by TOJ on Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Admiral
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Admiral » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:47 pm

OP:

I suggest you buy or borrow a copy of Dollars and Sense, a recent HC by Dan Ariely.

It will make you think about money in a new way.

https://www.amazon.com/Dollars-Sense-Mi ... rds=Ariely

What people say and what they display has no bearing (and often no real connection) on how much they have, or how much they have saved.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Admiral » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:50 pm

Pajamas wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:22 pm
snowman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:10 pm
Maybe little off topic, but last year I read "Coming Apart" - excellent and highly recommended book by Charles Murray. It was eye-opening!
Might as well give the full title if you are going to so wholeheartedly recommend that particular book and author.

Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010
Charles Murray?? <sound of can of worms being opened...>

MathWizard
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by MathWizard » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:55 pm

ND Fan 1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:37 pm
Wanted to chime in on this interesting thread. Wife and I are early 30s, living in a Midwest state very close to Ohio. We live back in our hometown after being away for 7 years while I was active duty. Separated and now am a Full Time National Guardsmen, so government employee. Wife is an nurse who works about 12-15 hrs per week, and combined we brought in $120K gross last year with total expenses including taxes, of $57K, so we saved roughly half our gross. We have 3 children under the age of 5.

Here is where "Comparison is the thief of joy." I think we are absolutely rich and I have everything I could possible need. Sometimes my wife compares us to others and feels we may be behind. She see my buddies from college (see username) who are doing much better than me. Or she assumes b/c of where I went to school, and having a MBA, I could be making a ton more. Her Dad is a pharmacist who brings home $180K (dude works like 70 hrs a week) or so and I will never it make it there at my current duty station. So at times, she compares us to my college peers, and her Dad and feels a bit lacking. All, I do is remind her how well we are compared to most of the country, and bring her back to reality. Then we kiss our babies, and count our blessings.

I grew up in a family with 12 siblings, and my Dad (RIP), worked his tail off at 2 jobs, and maybe grossed $50K once. Literally, worked up till the day he died at the age of 62. We were "poor" but I had an incredible childhood and never lacked essentials, my parents always gave us what we needed, not too mentioned siblings who are still my best friends (11 of 12 all live in our hometown still). So on paper we were about as poor as they come, in reality, we were/are extremely blessed.

I know this is a random internet forum, but resisting the temptation to compare yourself to others, really can make a big difference in happiness.
Excellent post.

You are actually doing much better than we were in our 30's, good for you.

Your expenses are low for your income, which will help you out immensely, since you are saving
a lot, and have lower expense to have to replace.

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buccimane
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by buccimane » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:03 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:00 am
ust heard today that 1/6 millennials has saved up over $100,000, fighting the myth that millennials are not saving. Would it surprise you that the majority of millennials on this board have more than $100,000? It would surprise me if it wasn't.
I need to see the source for this.. Very hard to believe. The oldest millennial is ~36 years old, and the youngest is 14. 1/6 of the population between the age 14-36 has $100,000?

To the OP: I am a recent grad in a HCOL with a BA in HR area making around $50k a year, and couldn't be more happy :sharebeer
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

fposte
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by fposte » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:11 pm

It's a Bank of America survey. Here is an overview.

randomguy
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by randomguy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:39 pm

fposte wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:11 pm
It's a Bank of America survey. Here is an overview.
A quick read and I didn't see any definition of what their survey population is. The number seems very,very high for all millennials but I have no problem believing that is true for a subset.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Meg77 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:39 pm

bhsince87 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:22 pm
Here's some real world salary info for you. I was an engineering manager for 20+ years. In a particualr niche in the elctronics industry, private sector, manufacturing/tech. Our pay is highly dependent on location and skill set.

Current office in average cost of living area in PA has about 25 engineers. Most are BSEEs from public universities (Big Ten). Entry level is $65k, 5 years in $80k, 10 years 100k, 15 years $120k, and that's about where it celings out. MS or PHd doesn't effect pay at all. Its OJT that counts.
A mehanical engineer will make about 80% of that, because there is less demand (at this poit in time, at least)

For the exact same positions at our HQ in Indiana, with a similar cost of living, the equivalant pay is $50k, $70k, $85k, and $100k.

Why are salaries lower in IN? Because there is almosst zero local competition. In PA, there are 7-8 competitors in the same business within about an hours drive. So folks can change jobs much more easily, and that drives salaries up.

A our office in Silicon Valley, 5 years experience would pay $150k, and teh top end is about $300k. For the exact same jobs! Except we don't do entry level hires there.
This is fascinating info, thanks.
buccimane wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:03 pm
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:00 am
ust heard today that 1/6 millennials has saved up over $100,000, fighting the myth that millennials are not saving. Would it surprise you that the majority of millennials on this board have more than $100,000? It would surprise me if it wasn't.
I need to see the source for this.. Very hard to believe. The oldest millennial is ~36 years old, and the youngest is 14. 1/6 of the population between the age 14-36 has $100,000?

To the OP: I am a recent grad in a HCOL with a BA in HR area making around $50k a year, and couldn't be more happy :sharebeer
This doesn't surprise me. I'm 34 (which makes me a millennial), and almost every other millennial I know over the age of 30 has well over $100k saved between retirement accounts and savings. Lots and lots of millennials are 10+ years into their careers, and many work in law, medicine, sales, financial services, and other high paying fields. Many of us are also married, which people forget when talking about the group (which is already the largest generation, so there are a LOT of us). It's a lot easier for a household to get to $100k when teamed up.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin

fulltilt
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by fulltilt » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:54 pm

KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:16 pm
...
I realize that this is basically a vent but sometimes I wonder if I am crazy or everyone else is.
You're not crazy.

Check out bls.gov.

They have tons of statistical data about different jobs and how much they pay across different parts of the country for different careers.

fantasytensai
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by fantasytensai » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:02 pm

Maya1234 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:52 pm
Some of us just get lucky. I've worked part time about 20 hours a week for years and make over $ 100,000. I'm a lawyer and very few lawyers can make part time work, work, but I was in the right time and place. Before I had kids I became a good writer/ researcher. Now all I do is appellate work which has long deadlines....little interaction with clients ( so few emergency demands) ....easy to manage work load. There's little corporate bs because the deadlines and evaluations are set by a third party( a court) so no office politics or bogus projects that get pulled on a whim like I see my friends who work for corporations facing. This was luck pure and simple. I went to law school because I didn't know what else to do. I did appellate work because I wasn't good at deal making. I was lucky to be born with the skills to do this work.

The BH demographic is small and many members just got lucky too. It's not representative of the world as a whole.
Can I contact you for advice? I'm a NY lawyer with appellate experience that is looking for exactly what you have...

inbox788
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by inbox788 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:04 pm

buccimane wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:03 pm
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:00 am
ust heard today that 1/6 millennials has saved up over $100,000, fighting the myth that millennials are not saving. Would it surprise you that the majority of millennials on this board have more than $100,000? It would surprise me if it wasn't.
I need to see the source for this.. Very hard to believe. The oldest millennial is ~36 years old, and the youngest is 14. 1/6 of the population between the age 14-36 has $100,000?

To the OP: I am a recent grad in a HCOL with a BA in HR area making around $50k a year, and couldn't be more happy :sharebeer
That's what this says. Don't know how they back it. It might just be a survey. But the point is they're not all that different. Starting off in poor economic times might delay wealth, but the cycle is not as different as some folks may want you to believe, and many desires stay the same.
Millennials: 1 in 6 now have $100,000 socked away
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... 053803001/

Add: I now see fposte already linked it.
Last edited by inbox788 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thx1138
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by thx1138 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:04 pm

TOJ wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm
Totally anecdotal, but the majority of people I know are not willing to move cities or jobs. They want what they know. All of my significant pay increases came from a job move. You have to want it; can't get lax and comfortable.
This is a big deal in my experience. I had was living in a dream (for me) LCOL area where I would probably have happily stayed a really long time. I did however want to get married to someone who had no career opportunities there. So I was "forced" to move. That opened up a significantly better salary prospect at a job I actually liked better apart from the money. The new location was MCOL and the increased salary way trumped the COL difference. Came out well ahead.

Later as my wife's career progressed she got an offer on the east coast. We, and especially me, were very much "never east of the Mississippi" kind of people. Thinking about it though we decided it was the most sensible thing to do then and maybe migrate back to west at a later date. That was 2007. We made the move early 2008. If we had not been flexible about location we would have gotten killed in the Great Recession with my wife at half the salary of the new job and worse essentially zero new job opportunities in her field for the next four years. Could have been career ending for her or at a minimum put her permanently on a lower salary and lower job quality path for the rest of her career.

My brother would live and take his family practically anywhere. Very rapidly "climbed the ladder" doing that. More moving than I'd ever want to do but it really did pay off.

Flip side especially in my wife's field we know many people who have "anchored" themselves to a locale and missed many opportunities as a result.

Willingness to be mobile does often pay significant dividends. But it isn't a realistic choice for everyone either.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:05 pm

ND Fan 1 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:37 pm
Wanted to chime in on this interesting thread. Wife and I are early 30s, living in a Midwest state very close to Ohio. We live back in our hometown after being away for 7 years while I was active duty. Separated and now am a Full Time National Guardsmen, so government employee. Wife is an nurse who works about 12-15 hrs per week, and combined we brought in $120K gross last year with total expenses including taxes, of $57K, so we saved roughly half our gross. We have 3 children under the age of 5.

Here is where "Comparison is the thief of joy." I think we are absolutely rich and I have everything I could possible need. Sometimes my wife compares us to others and feels we may be behind. She see my buddies from college (see username) who are doing much better than me. Or she assumes b/c of where I went to school, and having a MBA, I could be making a ton more. Her Dad is a pharmacist who brings home $180K (dude works like 70 hrs a week) or so and I will never it make it there at my current duty station. So at times, she compares us to my college peers, and her Dad and feels a bit lacking. All, I do is remind her how well we are compared to most of the country, and bring her back to reality. Then we kiss our babies, and count our blessings.

I grew up in a family with 12 siblings, and my Dad (RIP), worked his tail off at 2 jobs, and maybe grossed $50K once. Literally, worked up till the day he died at the age of 62. We were "poor" but I had an incredible childhood and never lacked essentials, my parents always gave us what we needed, not too mentioned siblings who are still my best friends (11 of 12 all live in our hometown still). So on paper we were about as poor as they come, in reality, we were/are extremely blessed.

I know this is a random internet forum, but resisting the temptation to compare yourself to others, really can make a big difference in happiness.
Fantastic post

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slayed
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by slayed » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:08 pm

Pajamas wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:22 pm
snowman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:10 pm
Maybe little off topic, but last year I read "Coming Apart" - excellent and highly recommended book by Charles Murray. It was eye-opening!
Might as well give the full title if you are going to so wholeheartedly recommend that particular book and author.

Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010
+1 I recommend this book as well. You can also find many good talks by Murray on youtube.

keystone
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Re: Working in the real world

Post by keystone » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:13 pm

KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:16 pm
First of all I want to apologize for an emotional reaction that I had to a previous post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239049. It was due to a claim that someone could make $80k/year working part time in semiretirement.
I haven't read this entire thread yet, so I apologize in advance if someone has already brought this up, but in the thread you are referring to the OP specifically says "we would work part-time" so that 80K includes both spouses.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by ncbill » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:15 pm

This thread reminds me of a story:

At a party once, Herbert Hoover's treasury secretary, Ogden Mills, was asked how much income a person could get by on.

He said,'"On $50,000 a year you can't even keep clean."

http://www.startribune.com/not-like-you ... 111693929/

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by N10sive » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:22 pm

TOJ wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm
$40-60k is not going to fund a SAHM/single income lifestyle with any money to save leftover at the end of the month.
I am not sure in what context you were saying this, but it is completely possible. I know plenty of people in the town I grew up in who do exactly this. Yeah they arent going on extravagant vacations around the world like I have, but they will most likely be fine in retirement. That is because one thing I dont have is a pension. They don't need to think that much about saving money each month like I do. Most of them work for the state, get great benefits etc. Plus the cost of living is a fraction of what I have to pay. Sales tax alone is a 4% difference.

One of the problems I see is this town is getting bombarded with new companies and an influx of wealthy tech people who are driving the costs of rent/home values up. They are practically driving people into poverty. They've made their money in the bay area, moved to a new company, maybe making less but cost of living is also less. I guess it happens in most booming areas.

On the other hand for all the tech cities and places where those tech workers are making 150-200k a year, there is also people making minimum wage. Living in 2 bedrom apartments with 2 families to get by. It is pretty crazy the disparity. To save each month on 40-60k in these cities with a stay at home spouse, no way.

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Re: Working in the real world

Post by Not Law » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:43 pm

Back in the 90's, Money magazine ran an article about how $125,000 was low income in New York City. The family had expenses for private schools, country club membership, etc. and were hardly getting by. When I compared my income of $50,000 in middle America, I came out far ahead, using public schools and facilities for the same "necessities".

Locked