Disability Insurance - Physician

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RamblinDoc
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by RamblinDoc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am

Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!

Benton Bair
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Benton Bair » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:44 am

RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
Talk with a Guardian Insurance Company agent.

bubbadog
Posts: 615
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by bubbadog » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:53 am

I got my specialty specific policy from Northwestern Mutual 22 years ago.

tic
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Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:56 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by tic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:16 am

PM sent

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climber2020
Posts: 1059
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Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by climber2020 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:47 am

RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
Everything you need to know: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/what- ... insurance/

I personally would not buy a policy through the AMA. Everything you stated is important, and also look for strong mental health coverage. Some companies cap mental health at a few years. Psych issues resulting in disability are just as common if not more so than breaking a hand.

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Strayshot
Posts: 354
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Location: New Mexico

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Strayshot » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:05 am

Policies, even when offering similar benefits at the top level, can all be different. Different issuers can price out policies with pretty dramatic deltas in $ for the same specialty because they put them in different categories.

My recommendation is, especially since your DI premiums in practice will be in the 5-10k per year range, spend the time to go to an independent broker now and get the best policy for your specialty that can be issued and use someone who knows docs.

Whatever you do don’t just walk into an agent for a single company and work with them.

cheapindexer
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by cheapindexer » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am

It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity

uberdoc
Posts: 50
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Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by uberdoc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:50 am

Employer provided LTD insurance is usually very limited. An independent LTD insurance with "own occupation" rider and a very specific definition of own occupation should be considered. This goes something like this- as a surgeon if I am not able to operate inside operating room, I will qualify for the LTD payment even if I could still work in an outpatient wound care clinic or take management position somewhere.

RamblinDoc
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by RamblinDoc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:03 pm

climber2020 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:47 am
RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
Everything you need to know: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/what- ... insurance/

I personally would not buy a policy through the AMA. Everything you stated is important, and also look for strong mental health coverage. Some companies cap mental health at a few years. Psych issues resulting in disability are just as common if not more so than breaking a hand.
Thanks!

RamblinDoc
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by RamblinDoc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:04 pm

Benton Bair wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:44 am
RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
Talk with a Guardian Insurance Company agent.
Thanks!

RamblinDoc
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by RamblinDoc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 pm

Thank you for everyone’s insight.

To add a curveball, I’m in the military. The few policies I’ve see don’t cover me if I’m injured in a military conflict.

1. Are there military docs who found a company that doesn’t have a war clause?

2. Is that even necessary in your opinion? The military has disability benefits, but nothing like “occupational specific” coverage to account for lost wages for physicians.

Twood
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Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Twood » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:35 pm

Have you tried talking to USAA?

RamblinDoc
Posts: 135
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Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by RamblinDoc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:19 pm

Twood wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:35 pm
Have you tried talking to USAA?

I have not - I know they offer life insurance, but didn’t think they offered disability.

Will check though.

Erwin007
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:29 am
Location: Intermountain West

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Erwin007 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:06 pm

cheapindexer wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity
I would be shocked if most physicians’ DI needs would be met by the DI provided by a hospital or health care system. What is your monthly benefit? Exclusion period?

asdfgf
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by asdfgf » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:52 pm

cheapindexer wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity
Employer-provided group disability plans are generally garbage. They're better than nothing, but largely inadequate for most.

am
Posts: 2655
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:55 am

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by am » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:17 pm

cheapindexer wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity
These policies are often limited, like 2 yr mental/nervous coverage. If you switch jobs with a preexisting condition you may be out of luck. You’ll pay a lot if your older like this poster also if new employer doesn’t have insurance.

malabargold
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:16 am

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by malabargold » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:22 pm

Get a long exclusion period to get best premiums.

toofache32
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by toofache32 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:13 pm

climber2020 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:47 am
RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
Everything you need to know: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/what- ... insurance/

I personally would not buy a policy through the AMA. Everything you stated is important, and also look for strong mental health coverage. Some companies cap mental health at a few years. Psych issues resulting in disability are just as common if not more so than breaking a hand.
Fully agree. Start with the white coat investor blog and it will lead you in the right direction. The author of the blog is also on bogleheads and is a former military doc.

I would avoid any policies through an association, especially AMA which is known to not have physicians' best interest at heart.

toofache32
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by toofache32 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:14 pm

Erwin007 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:06 pm
cheapindexer wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity
I would be shocked if most physicians’ DI needs would be met by the DI provided by a hospital or health care system. What is your monthly benefit? Exclusion period?
This only applies if the physician is employed by a hospital. Many physicians (such as myself) work IN a hospital but not FOR a hospital. I do my own billings and get paid nothing by the hospital.

Erwin007
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:29 am
Location: Intermountain West

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Erwin007 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:34 pm

toofache32 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:14 pm
Erwin007 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:06 pm
cheapindexer wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity
I would be shocked if most physicians’ DI needs would be met by the DI provided by a hospital or health care system. What is your monthly benefit? Exclusion period?
This only applies if the physician is employed by a hospital. Many physicians (such as myself) work IN a hospital but not FOR a hospital. I do my own billings and get paid nothing by the hospital.
I am employed by a hospital. My provided DI is garbage. Hence my questions.

toofache32
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by toofache32 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:44 pm

Erwin007 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:34 pm
toofache32 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:14 pm
Erwin007 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:06 pm
cheapindexer wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
It’s another reason to be an employed physician, I’m 47 and have had a policy all along since finishing fellowship paid for by my employer

My wife is a physician too so perhaps I don’t have as much need for a policy as one physician families

IMO I would get one if my BMI is over 30 Because odds of needing disability skyrocket with obesity
I would be shocked if most physicians’ DI needs would be met by the DI provided by a hospital or health care system. What is your monthly benefit? Exclusion period?
This only applies if the physician is employed by a hospital. Many physicians (such as myself) work IN a hospital but not FOR a hospital. I do my own billings and get paid nothing by the hospital.
I am employed by a hospital. My provided DI is garbage. Hence my questions.
Doesn't surprise me. This doesn't benefit them other than getting you to sign on the line, so they are always gonna cheap out on it.

BruDude
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Location: Las Vegas

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by BruDude » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:13 pm

RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
I'd suggest working with an independent agent. IMO, the "top tier" of disability insurance companies would include Guardian, Standard, Principal, Ohio National, Ameritas, and Mass Mutual. I would suggest looking at a quote with the following benefits:

-Guaranteed renewable and non-cancelable contract, meaning the insurance company cannot change any terms of the contract and the premiums are guaranteed not to increase through age 65/67. The non-can benefit that guarantees no premium increases is an option with some companies, included as part of the base policy with others.
-Max available benefit based on your income and factoring in government benefits
-True own-occupation definition of disability, including Specialty definition (note that Principal is the only of the companies mentioned above that doesn't include the Specialty language in their definitions)
-90-day elimination period
-To-age-65 benefit period
-Maximum Future Increase Option rider
-COLA rider
-Partial Disability/Residual Disability rider (Enhanced version if there is both a Basic and Enhanced available)

You can reduce cost by choosing a longer elimination period, a shorter benefit period (though you probably want age-65 benefits at a minimum), or changing/removing optional riders.


Another one of your posts says you are in the military. Since the government offers disability benefits, the amount of coverage you will be able to purchase on an individual policy is going to be more limited. If you are a first-year physician, you can qualify for $6500-7500/month in benefits regardless of the government benefits. I don't think you will find any individual DI policies that cover acts of war while serving in the military.

darrvao777
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:34 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by darrvao777 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:42 pm

I would go to WCI, peruse a few articles, and use one of his recommended agents

I used Larry Keller and had a great experience

Kencufc
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:36 am

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Kencufc » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm

I’m an employed physician with some 1099 income. I have an individual LTD policy through Ohio National. Thy gave me very good rates and I even got a 10% reduction in pre I’m because I bought a $2M 20 year term along with it. I went through an independent broker.

I also have group LTD and term life insurance. Neither group policy are even close to as good as my individual policy. I strongly recommend an individual policy.

The premium in a ver small percentage of my take home pay but well worth it. Should be FI in 20years so I plan to let the term policy expire and will cancel the LTD as soon as the FI is reached.

island
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by island » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:02 pm

For this type of insurance are the disability payments taxed?

toofache32
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by toofache32 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:52 pm

island wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:02 pm
For this type of insurance are the disability payments taxed?
Not if you pay premiums with post-tax dollars.

RamblinDoc
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by RamblinDoc » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:38 pm

BruDude wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:13 pm
RamblinDoc wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:24 am
Where do Boglehead-physicians tend get their disability insurance?

What are people's opinions about DI through the AMA?

From what I read, it is important to ensure that we obtain DI that is occupation specific, has a COLA adjustment, and possibly has a partial disability clause. Is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks!
I'd suggest working with an independent agent. IMO, the "top tier" of disability insurance companies would include Guardian, Standard, Principal, Ohio National, Ameritas, and Mass Mutual. I would suggest looking at a quote with the following benefits:

-Guaranteed renewable and non-cancelable contract, meaning the insurance company cannot change any terms of the contract and the premiums are guaranteed not to increase through age 65/67. The non-can benefit that guarantees no premium increases is an option with some companies, included as part of the base policy with others.
-Max available benefit based on your income and factoring in government benefits
-True own-occupation definition of disability, including Specialty definition (note that Principal is the only of the companies mentioned above that doesn't include the Specialty language in their definitions)
-90-day elimination period
-To-age-65 benefit period
-Maximum Future Increase Option rider
-COLA rider
-Partial Disability/Residual Disability rider (Enhanced version if there is both a Basic and Enhanced available)

You can reduce cost by choosing a longer elimination period, a shorter benefit period (though you probably want age-65 benefits at a minimum), or changing/removing optional riders.


Another one of your posts says you are in the military. Since the government offers disability benefits, the amount of coverage you will be able to purchase on an individual policy is going to be more limited. If you are a first-year physician, you can qualify for $6500-7500/month in benefits regardless of the government benefits. I don't think you will find any individual DI policies that cover acts of war while serving in the military.

Outstanding - thank you.

O2sats
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 8:04 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by O2sats » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:10 pm

darrvao777 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:42 pm
I would go to WCI, peruse a few articles, and use one of his recommended agents

I used Larry Keller and had a great experience
Agreed, I also used Larry Keller and have nothing but positive things to say.

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Thrifty Femme
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:54 pm

Re: Disability Insurance - Physician

Post by Thrifty Femme » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:49 pm

I'm not a physician but my broker, Stephanie Pearson, is a physician that has first hand experience trying to claim disability insurance. I chose her because of her personal experience and he willingness to advocate for her clients. She doing an excellent job of explaining each carrier's definitions and the pros and cons of the differences between the carriers. I'm very close to purchasing a policy with her.

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