2018 Withholding Tables

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Devil's Advocate
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by Devil's Advocate » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:15 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:41 pm
An option for some to cut through the unknowns is to calculate their tax burden under the new law, set exemptions ridiculously high to make withholding 0 and enter in the additional amount to withhold per pay period on the next line based upon total due / pay periods in the year after accounting for the withholdings taken in 2018 prior to making the change.
This is what my company's accountant suggested. I estimated my tax burden and asked them how to fill out the W-4 to withold x amount. They said set allowances to 99 and put x in the additional amount to withhold.

Now let's hope my estimates were right!
:shock:

DA

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grabiner
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by grabiner » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:23 am

adamsapple19 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:11 pm
Per the below, a single person (in a simple one-job/nothing special situation) would need to update their current W4 withholdings (from 1) to 2 per the below?

"...filers with no dependents, only one wage income, standard deduction, and no other income, credits, etc., filing "Single with 2 Allowances" or "Married with 3 Allowances" (as applicable) will withhold exactly the amount of federal tax due." - From: MMM

I've been operating under the assumption a single person would claim just one, per the below from Investopedia:

"You can claim one allowance for yourself, one for your spouse and one for each of your dependents."
This is not correct. You can claim one exemption for yourself, your spouse, and each dependent on your tax form (through 2017), but you can claim as many allowances as you need on your W-4 to get the right amount of withholding. The 2017 W-4 worksheet says to claim an extra allowance if you are single and have only one job, or you are married, have only one job, and your spouse does not work. Therefore, the default for a single taxpayer should be 2.
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FiveK
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by FiveK » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:53 am

grabiner wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:23 am
adamsapple19 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:11 pm
Per the below, a single person (in a simple one-job/nothing special situation) would need to update their current W4 withholdings (from 1) to 2 per the below?

"...filers with no dependents, only one wage income, standard deduction, and no other income, credits, etc., filing "Single with 2 Allowances" or "Married with 3 Allowances" (as applicable) will withhold exactly the amount of federal tax due." - From: MMM

I've been operating under the assumption a single person would claim just one, per the below from Investopedia:

"You can claim one allowance for yourself, one for your spouse and one for each of your dependents."
This is not correct. You can claim one exemption for yourself, your spouse, and each dependent on your tax form (through 2017), but you can claim as many allowances as you need on your W-4 to get the right amount of withholding. The 2017 W-4 worksheet says to claim an extra allowance if you are single and have only one job, or you are married, have only one job, and your spouse does not work. Therefore, the default for a single taxpayer should be 2.
Perhaps some clarification on the antecedent to "this" in "this is not correct" would be helpful. :)

If one looks closely at 2017 Form W-4, one will see from lines A, B, and C that, even in 2017, the simplest situations would cause filing W-4s as "single with 2 allowances" or "married with 3 allowances".

That is, a single filer would have a 1 for line A and a 1 for line B. The married filer with one income would have a 1 on each of lines A, B, and C.

The way the 2018 withholding tables have been constructed, the simplest situations continue to suggest filing W-4s as "single with 2 allowances" and "married with 3 allowances".

If one has been withholding based on a 2017 W-4 with single and 1 allowance, changing to 2 allowances for 2018 will cause a different result (all other things equal) when filing. I've corrected a previous post that wasn't clear in that regard.

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Artsdoctor
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by Artsdoctor » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:17 pm

Just remember that there is no W-4 for 2018 available yet. The IRS is recommending that taxpayers use a calculator to fill out the 2018 W-4 when it becomes available. Of course, the calculator is supposed to be available after the W-4 forms are available . . .

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by likashing » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Married filing joining and I make $180k, while my spouse makes $100k. We have 2 kids and should be eligible for the full child credit. We also plan to take the $24k standard deduction. What should we put in the W4?

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FiveK
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by FiveK » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:02 pm

likashing wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:56 pm
Married filing joining and I make $180k, while my spouse makes $100k. We have 2 kids and should be eligible for the full child credit. We also plan to take the $24k standard deduction. What should we put in the W4?
Seems if you each have "Single with 4 allowances" it works out about right.

You could check, using the tool referenced in 2018 Withholding allowances.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by neurosphere » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:50 pm

forgive me if this has been asked/answered already.

Is it expected that this new 2018 withholding tables will remain the same for 2018? I realize a new W4 form needs to be made, and people may need to change how they fill out the form and how many exemptions allowances to claim. But I suppose the new 2018 employer withholding table is "done" and will be used for the remainder of the year?
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:21 pm

My employer claims that the W-4 filled out for 2017 "expires" in February 2018. They are telling everyone "Give us a new W-4 by February 15, 2018 or we will change your exemption status to single with 0 dependents."

I assume you can still fill out as many W-4s as needed over the course of the year, so I'm not overly concerned.
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by neurosphere » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:23 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:21 pm
My employer claims that the W-4 filled out for 2017 "expires" in February 2018. They are telling everyone "Give us a new W-4 by February 15, 2018 or we will change your exemption status to single with 0 dependents."

I assume you can still fill out as many W-4s as needed over the course of the year, so I'm not overly concerned.
Interesting! So them them "bump" you to single/0 for a pay period or two. Then when the new W4 officially comes out, you can do what you need to do. :)

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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by cherijoh » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:59 pm

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:30 pm
The Federal 2018 tax brackets have been released:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf
Link is now broken - I am getting a page not found message. I even went to irs.gov and typed in "2018 withholding". I guess I'll try later.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by CT-Scott » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:01 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:21 pm
I assume you can still fill out as many W-4s as needed over the course of the year, so I'm not overly concerned.
Yeah, I'm able to submit Federal W-4 changes online with my company. State W-4 (CT) requires that I fill the form out and scan/email it to my payroll department. I would think that any/all employers should allow you to resubmit W-4 forms throughout the year, to account for life changes that would impact your withholdings. Though I guess I could see the HR folks (or a smaller company) getting annoyed if you kept submitting revised W-4's.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by cherijoh » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:04 pm

FiveK wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:49 pm
mikep wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:31 pm
Does this take into account the increased child tax credit?
The withholding tables themselves do not.

From the draft version of the W-4, 2018 Form W-4 - fw4--dft.pdf, it appears that will attempt to use the CTC (and others) to guide one to the correct number of allowances.
The draft version in your link says the draft is as of August 2017 so I don't think it takes new tax law into account.

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FiveK
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by FiveK » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:44 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:04 pm
The draft version in your link says the draft is as of August 2017 so I don't think it takes new tax law into account.
Yes, not to mention the Roman numeral part of this thread. :wink:

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by thx1138 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:28 am

LadyGeek wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:21 pm
My employer claims that the W-4 filled out for 2017 "expires" in February 2018. They are telling everyone "Give us a new W-4 by February 15, 2018 or we will change your exemption status to single with 0 dependents."

I assume you can still fill out as many W-4s as needed over the course of the year, so I'm not overly concerned.
LOL, that's exactly the opposite of what the administration is wanting to have happen by rushing the withholding changes!

Anyway as you say you can change whenever so potentially just let the dust settle for a few months then change once. Running the "wrong" withholding for even a third of the year is unlikely to put most folks out of whack enough to cause a giant refund or underpayment penalty.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by JerLon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:40 am

Trying to make sure I am figuring this right.
  • Income of around $95,000
  • Married filing jointly
  • Pre-Tax Payments of $22,500 ($18,500 to 403b, $4,000 in insurance premiums)
  • Standard Deduction of $24,000
  • Taxable income ends up at $47,725
  • Tax liability is $5,346.02
  • Two child credits
  • Tax bill of $1,346.02
Am I missing anything here? This would create a withholding need of $56.08 per pay over 24 pay periods. This is about 1/6 of my current withholding.

Carl53
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by Carl53 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:08 am

JerLon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:40 am
Trying to make sure I am figuring this right.
  • Income of around $95,000
  • Married filing jointly
  • Pre-Tax Payments of $22,500 ($18,500 to 403b, $4,000 in insurance premiums)
  • Standard Deduction of $24,000
  • Taxable income ends up at $47,725
  • Tax liability is $5,346.02
  • Two child credits
  • Tax bill of $1,346.02
Am I missing anything here? This would create a withholding need of $56.08 per pay over 24 pay periods. This is about 1/6 of my current withholding.
Looks like you were over withholding by around 25%. Yours is one of the larger percentage tax reductions I've seen.

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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by rkhusky » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:53 am

cherijoh wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:59 pm
rkhusky wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:30 pm
The Federal 2018 tax brackets have been released:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf
Link is now broken - I am getting a page not found message. I even went to irs.gov and typed in "2018 withholding". I guess I'll try later.
New link is the following:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/n1036--2018.pdf

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by rkhusky » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:01 am

LadyGeek wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:21 pm
My employer claims that the W-4 filled out for 2017 "expires" in February 2018. They are telling everyone "Give us a new W-4 by February 15, 2018 or we will change your exemption status to single with 0 dependents."

I assume you can still fill out as many W-4s as needed over the course of the year, so I'm not overly concerned.
I would be peeved if my employer did that, since I currently have 17 allowances. It would seem that using the current W4 would be more accurate than putting everyone at 1 or 2 allowances.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by annielouise » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:07 am

JerLon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:40 am
Trying to make sure I am figuring this right.
  • Income of around $95,000
  • Married filing jointly
  • Pre-Tax Payments of $22,500 ($18,500 to 403b, $4,000 in insurance premiums)
  • Standard Deduction of $24,000
  • Taxable income ends up at $47,725
  • Tax liability is $5,346.02
  • Two child credits
  • Tax bill of $1,346.02
Am I missing anything here? This would create a withholding need of $56.08 per pay over 24 pay periods. This is about 1/6 of my current withholding.
Do you have an employer paid life insurance worth over $50k? That will reduce your pre-tax number.

Also, of course, you need to consider income from other sources - interest, dividends, etc.

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midareff
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by midareff » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:10 am

Since this will also be my first year of RMD in addition to pension and SS I'm simply going to pay in 110% of last year via EFTPS to avoid penalty (if applicable) and go on about my retirement.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by The Wizard » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:31 am

All my income is from 1099-R and SSA- nowadays. Withholding allowances aren't applicable for me.

So my plan is to redo my 2017 income tax computations using the new 2018 tax rules in a few weeks.
I'll then have a personal dollar amount difference between the old tax law and the new one.
From this, I will adjust the withholding percentage of one of my 1099-R sources to come close to my new tax amount...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by CT-Scott » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 am

corn18 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:49 pm
Interesting they dropped the supplemental income rat from 25% to 22% for stuff under $1M.
Yeah, that adds another monkey wrench for me. It looks like we'll be in the 32% bracket (over the $315K family threshold by about $25K, using 2017 taxes as my basis). I get vested RSUs (restricted stock units) over the course of the year, and I think my wife may be getting a chunk of RSUs vesting from her employer. Plus, we get bonuses (hers around March, mine in September). Of course, the value of bonuses (and, to a lesser extent, the value of our RSUs), aren't completely predictable. So if I try to calculate my withholdings based solely on our salaries, and we get large bonuses, we'll be under-withholding. So it looks like I'll need to crunch some numbers and do something like account for my expected bonuses crossing me over into the 32% bracket, which means that I'll need to figure that the extra 10% (32% actual tax - 22% supplemental tax) needs to be accounted for in our regular withholdings.

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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by integrity » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:59 am

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/irs-wit ... calculator
Due to the tax law changes signed into law on December 22, 2017, the IRS withholding calculator is currently unavailable. ‎The IRS will update the calculator as soon as updated withholding information is available.
Just keep hitting F5 I guess :oops:

engineer1969
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by engineer1969 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 am

It's been posted before, but it appears to be updated for 2018: https://www.taxformcalculator.com/

The calculation matches my personal results.

BucketHalfFull
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by BucketHalfFull » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:35 am

engineer1969 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 am
It's been posted before, but it appears to be updated for 2018: https://www.taxformcalculator.com/

The calculation matches my personal results.
It appears this calculator has been updated for 2018 tables, but 401k limit is still 18,000 rather than the new 18,500. Also it seems like there is a bug with only being able to put limit up to 18,000. With my wife and I both contributing, our 401k contributions are above 18,000 combined. I thought I would mention in case anybody was interested in using this link.

Married Filing Jointly.

engineer1969
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by engineer1969 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:49 am

BucketHalfFull wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:35 am
engineer1969 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 am
It's been posted before, but it appears to be updated for 2018: https://www.taxformcalculator.com/

The calculation matches my personal results.
It appears this calculator has been updated for 2018 tables, but 401k limit is still 18,000 rather than the new 18,500. Also it seems like there is a bug with only being able to put limit up to 18,000. With my wife and I both contributing, our 401k contributions are above 18,000 combined. I thought I would mention in case anybody was interested in using this link.

Married Filing Jointly.

Thanks! I didn't notice that. We only have one 401k. I suppose the workaround is to reduce your income by the missing amount.

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FiveK
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by FiveK » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:15 pm

JerLon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:40 am
Am I missing anything here? This would create a withholding need of $56.08 per pay over 24 pay periods. This is about 1/6 of my current withholding.
Assuming the taxable income given, that is the result. A W-4 for "Married w/ 11 allowances" would work.

nolesrule
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by nolesrule » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:35 pm

Is there a best practice for setting W-4 withholding for two earners?

Currently we do M0 on both with all of the additional withholding coming out of mine. But due to our differing pay cycles, there's actually an even 50 paychecks per year between the two of us. The math is pretty easy to have the same additional withholding on all checks, and I don't have to deal with switching to Single and calculating out allowances.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by oldcomputerguy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:40 pm

leftcoaster wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:10 am
deskjockey wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:20 am
darkhorse346 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:00 am
At the time of this post, the IRS has taken down the withholding tables from their site.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf
Not sure what you mean--they're still on the IRS site as of when I'm typing this post, as is the press release announcing them:

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/news-relea ... rent-month
The pdf is not available
When I click the link, I get the PDF (even after clearing my browser cache). They must have put it back up.
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FiveK
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by FiveK » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:48 pm

nolesrule wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:35 pm
Is there a best practice for setting W-4 withholding for two earners?

Currently we do M0 on both with all of the additional withholding coming out of mine. But due to our differing pay cycles, there's actually an even 50 paychecks per year between the two of us. The math is pretty easy to have the same additional withholding on all checks, and I don't have to deal with switching to Single and calculating out allowances.
One can make a good case that best practice starts with forecasting one's actual tax liability for the year. After that, it's a matter of taste whether to use allowances or specific amounts on a W-4. Reasonable arguments can be made for either approach.

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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by TOJ » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:05 pm

JerLon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:40 am
Trying to make sure I am figuring this right.
  • Income of around $95,000
  • Married filing jointly
  • Pre-Tax Payments of $22,500 ($18,500 to 403b, $4,000 in insurance premiums)
  • Standard Deduction of $24,000
  • Taxable income ends up at $47,725
  • Tax liability is $5,346.02
  • Two child credits
  • Tax bill of $1,346.02
Am I missing anything here? This would create a withholding need of $56.08 per pay over 24 pay periods. This is about 1/6 of my current withholding.


Your math checks out. Isn't that nice? I am in a similar but not exact situation. The child tax credit is huge. I'm getting a 25% tax cut. If you get a bonus, the amount you need held from ordinary paychecks is even smaller. The 22% supplemental tax taken out of my bonus and stock will leave me paid in full for 2018 by March, with a refund coming. I have $0 taken out of ordinary paychecks.

nolesrule
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by nolesrule » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:48 pm

FiveK wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:48 pm
nolesrule wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:35 pm
Is there a best practice for setting W-4 withholding for two earners?

Currently we do M0 on both with all of the additional withholding coming out of mine. But due to our differing pay cycles, there's actually an even 50 paychecks per year between the two of us. The math is pretty easy to have the same additional withholding on all checks, and I don't have to deal with switching to Single and calculating out allowances.
One can make a good case that best practice starts with forecasting one's actual tax liability for the year. After that, it's a matter of taste whether to use allowances or specific amounts on a W-4. Reasonable arguments can be made for either approach.
I figured the forecasting was a given. :happy

I do my forecasting based on base salary with raises given at the appropriate time of year for each of us and then any other income adjustments and tax credits.

The Mrs. gets her bonus at the end of Q1, so we can either adjust withholding or pay quarterly estimated taxes to cover the 2.9% delta. My bonuses are quarterly and very unpredictable (and how they decide to withhold taxes on them has been unpredictable too), so it's easier just to adjust withholding later in the year to compensate if necessary.

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FiveK
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by FiveK » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:04 pm

nolesrule wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:48 pm
I figured the forecasting was a given. :happy
For those populating this board, that may be true. :wink:
...it's easier just to adjust withholding later in the year to compensate if necessary.
Seems a fine plan.

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corn18
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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by corn18 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:47 pm

CT-Scott wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 am
corn18 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:49 pm
Interesting they dropped the supplemental income rat from 25% to 22% for stuff under $1M.
Yeah, that adds another monkey wrench for me. It looks like we'll be in the 32% bracket (over the $315K family threshold by about $25K, using 2017 taxes as my basis). I get vested RSUs (restricted stock units) over the course of the year, and I think my wife may be getting a chunk of RSUs vesting from her employer. Plus, we get bonuses (hers around March, mine in September). Of course, the value of bonuses (and, to a lesser extent, the value of our RSUs), aren't completely predictable. So if I try to calculate my withholdings based solely on our salaries, and we get large bonuses, we'll be under-withholding. So it looks like I'll need to crunch some numbers and do something like account for my expected bonuses crossing me over into the 32% bracket, which means that I'll need to figure that the extra 10% (32% actual tax - 22% supplemental tax) needs to be accounted for in our regular withholdings.
I think you have it right. I usually just do an estimated payment at bonus + RSU time (March for both) to get me to safe harbor. Then I make an adjustment to withholding to cover any future learning.

I wonder if the IRS will consider suspending safe harbor in light of the big changes? I doubt it.

Bwlonge
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by Bwlonge » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:42 pm

engineer1969 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 am
It's been posted before, but it appears to be updated for 2018: https://www.taxformcalculator.com/

The calculation matches my personal results.
I'm getting different numbers with this calculator:

https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/tru ... calculator

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FiveK
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by FiveK » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:45 pm

Bwlonge wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:42 pm
engineer1969 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 am
It's been posted before, but it appears to be updated for 2018: https://www.taxformcalculator.com/

The calculation matches my personal results.
I'm getting different numbers with this calculator:

https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/tru ... calculator
What inputs (filing status, dependents' ages, gross income, W-2 box 1 income, retirement acct. contributions, etc.) are you using?

Bwlonge
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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by Bwlonge » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:59 pm

FiveK wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:45 pm
Bwlonge wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:42 pm
engineer1969 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 am
It's been posted before, but it appears to be updated for 2018: https://www.taxformcalculator.com/

The calculation matches my personal results.
I'm getting different numbers with this calculator:

https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/tru ... calculator
What inputs (filing status, dependents' ages, gross income, W-2 box 1 income, retirement acct. contributions, etc.) are you using?
Looks like the difference is my tIRA contribution deduction. TRC says my taxable income is 37k while CALCXML says it is 31.5k. When I remove the IRA from CALCXML, the numbers match.

I'm not seeing where the IRA deduction comes into play on TRC. I shouldn't be phased out on the deduction.

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Re: 2018 Withholding Tables

Post by paulsalem » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm


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Re: IRS announces new withholding tables for 2018

Post by KATNYC » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:37 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:41 pm
An option for some to cut through the unknowns is to calculate their tax burden under the new law, set exemptions ridiculously high to make withholding 0 and enter in the additional amount to withhold per pay period on the next line based upon total due / pay periods in the year after accounting for the withholdings taken in 2018 prior to making the change.
We are running numbers now and this seems like the best approach: set exemptions high (i.e., 18) and enter an additional withholding amount per pay period based on the estimate for 2018 taxes owed.

We generally pay Federal and get a refund from state so it's pretty much a wash with almost zero out of pocket.

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