Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

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Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Small Law Survivor » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:24 am

Doesn't leave much time for year-end issues .... :oops:

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by H-Town » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:26 am

I believe it's very helpful to discuss it since it has passed the Senate. Nothing better than expanding your knowledge and take some actionable tax planning.

.. it's up to the Admin/moderators now. They're calling the shot.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Theseus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:29 am

I asked for this two days ago and thread was removed and was referred to the standing policy. So the answer will be no.

My main point was that due to very few days left in the FY, it would help discuss somethings so we ALL can benefit. But I see their POV also.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Bacchus01 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:32 am

Given how close we are, and given how important some moves might be in the next week, it would be very nice if the mods would grant a christmas present just this one time! Put it all in one thread and let people have at it. PLEASE.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by MrNewEngland » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am

I know this board doesn’t talk politics but I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while on here. It affects our financials somewhat significantly. I’ve been meaning to start contributing more to my traditional retirement accounts and less to Roth retirement accounts for a while bow... but with these tax cuts approved it seems to me that I should stick with Roth until the cuts expire.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by ResearchMed » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 am

MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am
I know this board doesn’t talk politics but I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while on here. It affects our financials somewhat significantly. I’ve been meaning to start contributing more to my traditional retirement accounts and less to Roth retirement accounts for a while bow... but with these tax cuts approved it seems to me that I should stick with Roth until the cuts expire.
It's one thing to plan for next year, now.

But I wouldn't suggest making major plans/changes based upon what might happen in several years.
It could get changed, for better or for worse.

RM
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Theseus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:32 am
Given how close we are, and given how important some moves might be in the next week, it would be very nice if the mods would grant a christmas present just this one time! Put it all in one thread and let people have at it. PLEASE.
This is EXACTLY what I requested :-) Just ONE thread to bind them all :wink:

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Small Law Survivor » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 am

If Trump signs the bill tomorrow that leave only 10 days in the calendar year, and five of those are weekends/holiday. Not much time to discuss things like impact on Roth conversions/recharacterizations!

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by MrNewEngland » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 am
MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am
I know this board doesn’t talk politics but I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while on here. It affects our financials somewhat significantly. I’ve been meaning to start contributing more to my traditional retirement accounts and less to Roth retirement accounts for a while bow... but with these tax cuts approved it seems to me that I should stick with Roth until the cuts expire.
It's one thing to plan for next year, now.

But I wouldn't suggest making major plans/changes based upon what might happen in several years.
It could get changed, for better or for worse.

RM

I don’t know what this means.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Tanelorn » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:38 am

This is a very good writeup on the changes for individuals and what you might consider doing.

https://www.kitces.com/blog/final-gop-t ... trategies/

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by UpsetRaptor » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:39 am

In before lock/removal. :)

I do have a point of order question for our mods though (who are great, btw): When exactly can we call the bill "law" and start to discuss it? Is it as soon as the president signs it, or is there some publication or other process that then has to occur?

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by NYC_Guy » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 am
If Trump signs the bill tomorrow that leave only 10 days in the calendar year, and five of those are weekends/holiday. Not much time to discuss things like impact on Roth conversions/recharacterizations!
Even worse, he may not sign the bill until Jan 2 to avoid the automatic sequestration provisions in 2018. So if we stick to no talking until the president signs, this forum will likely will not be of much use on this issue as it relates to final 2017 planning.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by ResearchMed » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 am

MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 am
ResearchMed wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 am
MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am
I know this board doesn’t talk politics but I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while on here. It affects our financials somewhat significantly. I’ve been meaning to start contributing more to my traditional retirement accounts and less to Roth retirement accounts for a while bow... but with these tax cuts approved it seems to me that I should stick with Roth until the cuts expire.
It's one thing to plan for next year, now.

But I wouldn't suggest making major plans/changes based upon what might happen in several years.
It could get changed, for better or for worse.

RM

I don’t know what this means.
You mentioned planning to stick with Roths "until the cuts expire".

RM
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:42 am

One could argue this point after the House signs for a second time. At that point it is no longer proposed legislation, but passed (by Congress) - just waiting for a certain signature.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mffl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:42 am

+1. Exhibit A for why we don't discuss these things is that the House actually votes yesterday but then the Senate Parliamentarian ruled a few more things out of order for the reconciliation process (including the title of the bill!) and now the House has to revote today with some changes to 529s and a couple other things. But after the House re-votes, there's no more changes, and we're down to a binary choice. Either the President signs it at SOME point (99.9% chance) or doesn't (0.1% chance). I think that's actionable enough for us to all keep that caveat in mind and throw us all in one thread and let us have at it.

The upsides greatly outweigh the downsides for those of us who stand to be affected by the biggest tax reform in a generation, and who can make moves this week and this week only that could greatly benefit us.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mffl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:44 am

NYC_Guy wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 am
Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 am
If Trump signs the bill tomorrow that leave only 10 days in the calendar year, and five of those are weekends/holiday. Not much time to discuss things like impact on Roth conversions/recharacterizations!
Even worse, he may not sign the bill until Jan 2 to avoid the automatic sequestration provisions in 2018. So if we stick to no talking until the president signs, this forum will likely will not be of much use on this issue as it relates to final 2017 planning.
Right, THIS is the problem. I was content to follow the rules and be patient until I read that this morning.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by MrNewEngland » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:54 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 am
MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 am
ResearchMed wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 am
MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am
I know this board doesn’t talk politics but I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while on here. It affects our financials somewhat significantly. I’ve been meaning to start contributing more to my traditional retirement accounts and less to Roth retirement accounts for a while bow... but with these tax cuts approved it seems to me that I should stick with Roth until the cuts expire.
It's one thing to plan for next year, now.

But I wouldn't suggest making major plans/changes based upon what might happen in several years.
It could get changed, for better or for worse.

RM

I don’t know what this means.
You mentioned planning to stick with Roths "until the cuts expire".

RM

Oh... understood.

I mentioned that but my main point was that it seems to make sense to stick with Roth now that there's a tax cut rather than switch over and start contributing to traditional accounts. When I talked about what to do that far out into the future I guess it was just a throwaway line that shouldn't have been typed.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by nisiprius » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:58 am

johne417 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:39 am
I do have a point of order question for our mods though (who are great, btw): When exactly can we call the bill "law" and start to discuss it? Is it as soon as the president signs it, or is there some publication or other process that then has to occur?
I'm not a moderator and I can't answer this question definitively, but it doesn't seem difficult. The written policy prohibits "politics" but calls out exceptions. One of them is that we can have
Discussions about enacted laws or regulations that affect the individual investor.
Wikipedia's general article on Bill (law) says
Where a piece of primary legislation is termed an act, the process of a bill becoming law may be termed enactment.
and
Bills passed by the legislature usually require the approval of the executive such as the monarch, president, or governor to become law.
So my interpretation is that it can be discussed when it is enacted, and it is enacted as soon as the President signs it. (Thus, we do not need to wait for it to be "promulgated," i.e. officially published).
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Small Law Survivor » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:01 pm

mffl wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:42 am
Either the President signs it at SOME point (99.9% chance) or doesn't (0.1% chance)
I think .1% is way too big a number :happy

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mffl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:05 pm

But the President is likely not going to sign it until January, so we won't be able to use this forum for 2017 tax planning if we go with the letter of the law.

In fact, the point of the rule is that we're doing forum posters and lurkers a disservice by encouraging them to act on uncertain information. At this point, anyone doing tax planning for 2017 on this forum based on current law is doing themselves a disservice, as it's extraordinarily likely they're basing their plans on a system that will not be in place for next year. I think with today's House re-vote, the "disservice" argument flips over the other direction.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:10 pm

The President is scheduled to sign it in early January 2018.
Anything can happen till then.
Patience.
j :D

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by HueyLD » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:14 pm

The forum owners have very explicit rules. When one is a guest of someone else, one needs to follow the hosts’ rules.

You can always go elsewhere if you want to discuss now.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Nate79 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:18 pm

What is going to be very interesting once the discussion is allowed is understanding all of the changes that are coming. So many things are being touched in the new tax law that completely new thinking is required. Everything from kiddie tax to how the tax brackets between income and dividends/capital gains play together will have all changed. It's really going to take some time to understand all the details.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mffl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:21 pm

HueyLD wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:14 pm
The forum owners have very explicit rules. When one is a guest of someone else, one needs to follow the hosts’ rules.

You can always go elsewhere if you want to discuss now.
Totally understood and agreed. They also have the power to throw us all in one thread and limit it to that. I'll obviously respect their decision either way.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by H-Town » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:21 pm

Tanelorn wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:38 am
This is a very good writeup on the changes for individuals and what you might consider doing.

https://www.kitces.com/blog/final-gop-t ... trategies/
Thank you!! It's a very good read. :sharebeer

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Munir » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:27 pm

HueyLD wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:14 pm
The forum owners have very explicit rules. When one is a guest of someone else, one needs to follow the hosts’ rules.

You can always go elsewhere if you want to discuss now.
One can disagree without being disagreeable.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:27 pm

Concerning the "thing" that cannot be discussed.... does anyone know of any user friendly updated tax casters/estimators?

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by KlangFool » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:28 pm

MrNewEngland wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am
I know this board doesn’t talk politics but I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while on here. It affects our financials somewhat significantly. I’ve been meaning to start contributing more to my traditional retirement accounts and less to Roth retirement accounts for a while bow... but with these tax cuts approved it seems to me that I should stick with Roth until the cuts expire.
MrNewEngland,

Not necessary true. The tax saving from your state income tax may make it worthwhile.

KlangFool

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Ethelred » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:29 pm

According to the forum rules, we can't discuss the tax bill until it's signed off by the president. The reasoning behind this is, usually, sound. Firstly, legislation isn't usually actionable until it's enacted. And secondly, discussion of planned legislation can descend into partisan name-calling.

The problem is that for this tax bill, neither of these really apply: Firstly, this is clearly actionable, since the chance of the president not signing is miniscule, plus there is a very rapidly approaching deadline on taking the applicable actions. Secondly, discussion is entirely focused on what members should do for personal tax planning, not on anything political.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mffl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:32 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:27 pm
Concerning the "thing" that cannot be discussed.... does anyone know of any user friendly updated tax casters/estimators?

Broken Man 1999
I don't know of any. TaxCaster just updated to *2017* rules a couple weeks ago, even though the applicable rules have been known all year (brackets, etc.). I did see some very high level estimator at one point that tried to show how changes to the code might affect your taxes, but it asked too few questions to really be very useful.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Thrifty Femme » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:35 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:27 pm
Concerning the "thing" that cannot be discussed.... does anyone know of any user friendly updated tax casters/estimators?

Broken Man 1999
I found this calculator http://taxplancalculator.com/

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by indexfundfan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:37 pm

Try another forum. There is a very informative thread and knowledgeable participants on the Early Retirement forum

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/ ... 89791.html
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mervinj7 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 pm

Thrifty Femme wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:35 pm
I found this calculator http://taxplancalculator.com/
I tried that calculator as well but my 2017 CA taxes were way off. Thus, it throws off the effect of losing the SALT deduction. I'm hoping this was not done on purpose by the author.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by heyyou » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:55 pm

Perhaps in the long run, whether or not we "prep" this year for the new tax rules, will not matter much at all.
Patience is fullness. These days, any promotion about something being the biggest, often does not keep the superlative after scrutiny.
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by mffl » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:59 pm

Welp, the House just now passed the amended bill. For better or for worse, this is all we will know until the President signs (or, I suppose, doesn't sign), probably on Jan 2.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by jhfenton » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:01 pm

mffl wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:59 pm
Welp, the House just now passed the amended bill. For better or for worse, this is all we will know until the President signs (or, I suppose, doesn't sign), probably on Jan 2.
I believe it should now be fair game for discussion. It's in final, final form, and of course the president is going to sign it. There are issues that need to be discussed in 2017 (like Roth conversion recharacterizations).

I personally also want to discuss how folks see the Roth/Traditional 401(k) decision given the new tax brackets. It'll tempting to start putting a portion of the 401(k) money on the Roth side at 22%.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by harikaried » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:06 pm

Thrifty Femme wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:35 pm
I found this calculator http://taxplancalculator.com/
Looks like a relatively basic tax calculator that helps give a sense of the changes. In particular "Income" is Adjusted Gross Income with no handling of capital gains, etc. For those who itemize, it will calculate the income tax based on your Income, so don't just put what you took on your itemized deduction line.

From some quick playing around with some numbers, it looks like a big winner are families that can now benefit from the $2000/child tax credit, which is quite a bit more than the current $4000/child personal exemption "deduction".

Otherwise, generally it's roughly a 3% points reduction of the tax rate for those not itemizing. E.g., ~$3000 less in taxes for each $100,000 income.
Last edited by harikaried on Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Ethelred wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:29 pm
According to the forum rules, we can't discuss the tax bill until it's signed off by the president. The reasoning behind this is, usually, sound. Firstly, legislation isn't usually actionable until it's enacted. And secondly, discussion of planned legislation can descend into partisan name-calling.
Plus, if something seems (as in this case) almost certain to pass but then hits a snag and doesn't, folks may make plans and decisions based on incorrect assumptions, which might have very bad consequences.

Better to wait until we know for sure where we stand.
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by JGoneRiding » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm

Am I crazy. I thought none of these changes would have any affect until 2018 taxes. Or are people trying to do something now so it doesn't fall on 2018?

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by ResearchMed » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:14 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm
Am I crazy. I thought none of these changes would have any affect until 2018 taxes. Or are people trying to do something now so it doesn't fall on 2018?
The latter... trying to do things now that are "better now", etc.
There might also be some things "better later", but I haven't heard much about that - yet.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by BTDT » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:16 pm

I think it should be actionable now that both the house and senate have signed a bill that the President wanted, and also given the tax implications in the next two weeks. As an example In my case I just received my 2018 property taxes due January 1st. I don't itemize so I took the option of paying paying half the tax this year and the rest in 2018 where I will be able to deduct property tax without itemizing. Had I not seen this on the FIRE website, I might have missed the savings because we can't "talk-about-the-bill" on the Bogleheads. :oops:


That said, I think the moderators do a fantastic job and I will respect whatever their decision may be. :sharebeer
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Stormbringer » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:17 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm
Am I crazy. I thought none of these changes would have any affect until 2018 taxes. Or are people trying to do something now so it doesn't fall on 2018?
There are things you can do, such as deferring income until next year, or pulling expenses forward into 2017 to optimize your taxes.
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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by jhfenton » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:17 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm
Am I crazy. I thought none of these changes would have any affect until 2018 taxes. Or are people trying to do something now so it doesn't fall on 2018?
That is mostly the case. The one rule I've heard of that folks should know about is the elimination of the option to recharacterize Roth IRA conversions by the extended due date of your tax return the following year. It could be helpful for some folks to confirm (or dispel) the notion that if they are considering recharacterizing any Roth IRA conversions made this year, they will need to do it by 12/31/17, not 10/15/18. (With the market up so strongly this year, there may not be many folks who want to do that this year, though.)

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:18 pm

should I be purchasing Turbo Tax now or wait? can the tax bill be retroactive to 2007? can a law be passed like that? is there anything specific in the US constitution that prohibits retroactive laws?

given this is not yet locked, I am suspecting we have been given some leeway here by the powers to be.

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Re: Do We Have to Wait Until Trump Signs the Bill Before We Can Discuss It?

Post by Alex Frakt » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:23 pm

Locked. There is an open thread on the tax bill at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=235146

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