A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

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celia
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by celia » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:03 pm

rec7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:50 pm
I thought the other people would hit you up for money or tell you about their money problems that is what usually happens to me.
Based on the thread title, I, too, was expecting something different in the post. I was hoping TL enjoyed a conversation where he learned something new from his/her friends and now hoped to share the new idea with Boglehead friends.

Alas, it was about TimeLord's feelings, which are not actionable for him or us.

TimeLord, I'm glad for you but don't understand why you posted this.

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FIREchief
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by FIREchief » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:06 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:24 pm
I doubt there will ever be a time where I don't pay attention to the price. It doesn't have anything to do with my financial status. It's just the way I'm wired.
+1 I was beginning to think that I was the only one who had this reaction. Some of us focused on price/affordability never really went to restaurants (or anywhere else) without resolving any concerns about the expenditure before walking in the door. The moment the check arrived was never a variable.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

spammagnet
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by spammagnet » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:19 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
As with many people, the holidays are a time we catch up with old friends who are in town visiting family. Last night we had the pleasure of joining two such friends for dinner at a nice restaurant.

We had a lovely time and very much enjoyed the evening and their company. Our bill was 2 or 3 times what we normally spend when we dine out, nothing absurd or near what you would pay in say Manhattan though, and it was quickly dispatched by the swipe of a card.

It dawned on me this morning during my coffee that I had only noticed the amount so I could calculate the tip and that was a wonderful feeling. There was no thoughts about the total or why did I order that appetizer.

For lack of better description it was a true sense of freedom to be devoid of financial concern and two thoughts came to me. First, I am truly blessed and fortunate to be in the financial position to view the check in that way, as no more than a signature. Second, that is the level of Financial Independence I want to have in retirement.

I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance. Currently, I am not at that level but it is definitely achievable in a reason timeframe. So today as I look at my number, my assets and work I am invigorated and motivated a new. I have had what for me is an epiphany.

I now have a crystal clear picture of exactly what I want financially instead of an abstract concept, and I understand how my work will help get me there. I have always believed understanding what is valuable to you is an important step on the road to being at peace and content, and today I feel I understand that better than I ever have.

It is great to have my financial plan evolve from the pursuit of a number to focused picture of how I want my finances interacting within my life. Have any other BH had a similar epiphany?
Paragraph breaks added so others will benefit from reading the whole thing. No change of content.

I understand the feeling and have it myself, within our chosen standard of living. I'm not at the point where I could quit work and be comfortable at the same spending level. It"s not far off and I'm confident in our plans to get there. Do I wish it were tomorrow? Sure, but I'm not unhappy in the meantime.

kenoryan
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by kenoryan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:30 pm

I too have come to the realization that my wife and I have more than what we need. We are generous with our gifts and donations. For the first time in my life, I gave away $5,000 to a friend’s son towards his college education. We have an only child who just graduated from med school and is doing residency. She’s all set. We make enough money that we don’t even have any expenses any more. We still save more than 50% of our post tax income. I have been saving 50% since I was 26 years old. I’m 58 now. I’ve built up quite a fortune and traveled the world. I still work for the love of it. My wife is a workaholic too.

Congratulations on your achievements and I wish you the best for the future.

Ryan

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by kenoryan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:37 pm

btenny wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:15 pm
I had a similar moment two weeks ago. I was startled at how lucky and good my life has gone. I worked hard and saved a lot and am now well into retirement. I was having dinner with my wife and my daughter and her husband. We had just watched a great theater play and were enjoying good Indian food in downtown London. I paid the bill with no worry about the price or the exchange rate or anything. I just signed.

I was thinking about how Life is Good.

Good Luck.
The best Indian food in London is by London Hospital. It’s actually Pakistani food but it’s amazing. The name of the restaurant is Tayyab. It’s BYOB and the wait is horrendous. But the food is amazing. Whitechapel tube station, just a couple of blocks away. Get there early and stand in line with a 6 pack! And it’s dirt cheap! Your next best option is to drive up to Leicester.

JBTX
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by JBTX » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:45 pm

I always like TLs post but I am a bit puzzled by it. Perhaps I just don’t get it. I was more likely to feel that type of a feeling 20-25 years ago when I was single and had good income and modest but decent savings for my age but no real significant financial responsibities. Now we have more income, much more savings but have kids with uncertain futures, down to one income at the moment, retirement not that far off and I’m paying more attention than ever to the pennies and the bills.

It seems to me the feeling is brought about by a good income and few financial responsibilities. I don’t know that I’d ever feel the same way about living off of savings, because any material expenditure is depleting savings.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by TheTimeLord » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:06 am

celia wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:03 pm
rec7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:50 pm
I thought the other people would hit you up for money or tell you about their money problems that is what usually happens to me.
Based on the thread title, I, too, was expecting something different in the post. I was hoping TL enjoyed a conversation where he learned something new from his/her friends and now hoped to share the new idea with Boglehead friends.

Alas, it was about TimeLord's feelings, which are not actionable for him or us.

TimeLord, I'm glad for you but don't understand why you posted this.
The point and actionable part is the self discovery that allows you to transition your thinking beyond a number associated to a vague concept of how you would want to live to a clear understanding of what you are striving for. To me it is actionable and valuable to not only work to understand what you want, but to glean understanding by observing your own actions and the priorities you naturally place on things. I can say I want X dollars and hope it gives me the life I desire, or I can say I desire to live a certain way and strive to obtain the financial resources required to achieve it. It is like the difference in saying I want to live in Oregon and knowing I want to live at 66215 Pronghorn Estates Dr #191 in Bend Oregon.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

westcoast
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by westcoast » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:44 am

Great post TimeLord, I understand what your saying. That’s a great feeling to realize about the road you travelled an where you are today. Congratulations.

2comma
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by 2comma » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:15 am

TimeLord I know exactly what you were saying. I remember as a newlywed agonizing over a $17 box fan at Kmart - this was to get us through another sweltery southern summer. While I'll always be frugal by nature once I reached the point I could easily buy whatever I found was good value for the money, it was like a weight being lifted off of my shoulders and I never want to go back. Now I pay cash for new cars or to replace a roof or take an international vacation. Although I'll never feel right spending at the Tesla or first class international airfare level, It's a damn nice feeling being able to spend for enjoyment, necessity or emergency and not having to be concerned with the payment and that's all I've ever wanted out of my financial life.

Posters seem a little "crabby" tonight, perhaps a little too much Christmas shopping joy? Man, I hope I got my spelling, grammar, sentence structure and punctuation right!
If I am stupid I will pay.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by FIREchief » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:27 am

2comma wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:15 am
TimeLord I know exactly what you were saying. I remember as a newlywed agonizing over a $17 box fan at Kmart - this was to get us through another sweltery southern summer. While I'll always be frugal by nature once I reached the point I could easily buy whatever I found was good value for the money, it was like a weight being lifted off of my shoulders and I never want to go back. Now I pay cash for new cars or to replace a roof or take an international vacation. Although I'll never feel right spending at the Tesla or first class international airfare level, It's a damn nice feeling being able to spend for enjoyment, necessity or emergency and not having to be concerned with the payment and that's all I've ever wanted out of my financial life.

Posters seem a little "crabby" tonight, perhaps a little too much Christmas shopping joy? Man, I hope I got my spelling, grammar, sentence structure and punctuation right!
Crabby!!!! I'll show you CRABBY!!!! (jk)

Your box fan story is a good one. Not surprisingly, somebody who once had to evaluate to buy a $17 fan, doesn't "feel right" about spending silly money on an exotic car or a few hours of marginally increased comfort in an airplane seat. Never forget your roots. It will make you a happier person. The person who is truly happy isn't the one who just blew $$$ on a Tesla or a $100 steak; it's the person who is very content driving their $20K Corolla through the drive up at McDonalds to buy the $5 mega McNugget deal. Something about that situation just sits very well in a true Boglehead stomach. If others really think they need to spend $100 for a meal to feel "happy", well, then, best wishes to them. Cmon', can I get an "Amen!"
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

HIinvestor
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by HIinvestor » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:24 am

I realize that when money was tighter and we were barely treading water paying our mortgage and college tuitions and expenses, I was much more concerned about all expenses and income. Once those were paid off, the financial load has greatly lifted, even more once S got a secure job with good benefits.

Now we can easily pay expenses that used to concern me, including mechanics bills and dining and travel. Awhile back, I realized I no longer stress about whether the mechanic’s bill will be high or moderate. We trust him and he is fair and keeps our cars running very well.

It was a nice moment for me when I realized that we have enough to very comfortably live the life we want, including travel AND will still be able to leave our kids a nice nest egg that we can give them some now and save some for later and maybe grandkids in the future. ;)

It greatly surprised H and me to have more income post-retirement than we had when H was working full-time.

mak1277
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by mak1277 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:32 am

FIREchief wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:27 am
2comma wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:15 am
TimeLord I know exactly what you were saying. I remember as a newlywed agonizing over a $17 box fan at Kmart - this was to get us through another sweltery southern summer. While I'll always be frugal by nature once I reached the point I could easily buy whatever I found was good value for the money, it was like a weight being lifted off of my shoulders and I never want to go back. Now I pay cash for new cars or to replace a roof or take an international vacation. Although I'll never feel right spending at the Tesla or first class international airfare level, It's a damn nice feeling being able to spend for enjoyment, necessity or emergency and not having to be concerned with the payment and that's all I've ever wanted out of my financial life.

Posters seem a little "crabby" tonight, perhaps a little too much Christmas shopping joy? Man, I hope I got my spelling, grammar, sentence structure and punctuation right!
Crabby!!!! I'll show you CRABBY!!!! (jk)

Your box fan story is a good one. Not surprisingly, somebody who once had to evaluate to buy a $17 fan, doesn't "feel right" about spending silly money on an exotic car or a few hours of marginally increased comfort in an airplane seat. Never forget your roots. It will make you a happier person. The person who is truly happy isn't the one who just blew $$$ on a Tesla or a $100 steak; it's the person who is very content driving their $20K Corolla through the drive up at McDonalds to buy the $5 mega McNugget deal. Something about that situation just sits very well in a true Boglehead stomach. If others really think they need to spend $100 for a meal to feel "happy", well, then, best wishes to them. Cmon', can I get an "Amen!"
I don't need a $100 steak to be happy. But I can say with certainty that I enjoy a $100 steak more than I enjoy McDonald's (and I *like* McD's). I wouldn't eat a $100 steak every day, but I also try and avoid making decisions purely based on money.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by MikeG62 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:51 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
...It dawned on me this morning during my coffee that I had only noticed the amount so I could calculate the tip and that was a wonderful feeling. There was no thoughts about the total or why did I order that appetizer. For lack of better description it was a true sense of freedom to be devoid of financial concern and two thoughts came to me. First, I am truly blessed and fortunate to be in the financial position to view the check in that way, as no more than a signature. Second, that is the level of Financial Independence I want to have in retirement. Have any other BH had a similar epiphany?
TheTimeLord, DW and I are about the complete our second full year of retirement. We planned carefully to ensure that once we got here we would treat expenditures exactly the way you describe - and we do just that. No angst at all over the amount of the bill. I sign the credit card slip almost as if someone else were paying (like it was a business function and I were using the CC provide by my former employer). I am very confident in my belief that we have sufficient assets to live the retirement we dreamed of and spend no time worrying about the size of the bill(s). As long as it's within our annual budget (which budget provides a very sizable amount for travel and entertainment), I don't worry about it at all.

Case in point, my CC was charged earlier in the week for the cost of the hotel room on a vacation we are taking to the Caribbean in mid January. Cost of the room was ~$4,000 (6 night stay). Did not blink an eye when the alert came across my phone notifying me that a large charge was processed to my card where my card was not present. I paused for a moment, then remembered that the hotel policy was to charge the full cost of the room 30 days in advance. Then I went about living my life.

BTW, I would not call this "abundance" but rather "enough".
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience

Dandy
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Dandy » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:06 am

Being frugal and following the Boglehead investing approach is part philosophy and part a means to an end. To me I will always care about expenditures but that doesn't mean I won't treat myself or my family to some things once in awhile or that I won't re evaluate whether I should keep a car for 14 years rather than get one more expensive that is safer. I made a number of mistakes over weighting lower price vs better quality.

The main reason I was and am frugal was I wanted to attain a good measure of financial independence when I retired. I saw my parents having to move a thousand of miles away to live in retirement. They missed much joy of being with family and also missed the help and comfort a family can give when they were in decline. I wanted to insure my family would be secure.

The means to that end turned out to be living frugally and saving and eventually investing more like a Boglehead. Good thing since I lost my job twice after age 52, had a family member with a life threatening illness, and had to put 2 children through college. Having a nice nest egg during those times was a great comfort.

Luckily, I have attained a good measure of financial independence as i approach 70 next year and collect full Social Security and my RMDs. I have gradually and carefully expanded our standard of living, increased help to our children and our charity contributions. I have a more appropriate balance between frugality and enjoying life now that I have reached this financial state. No guilt. I worked hard, saved hard and was lucky so while you won't likely see me in a Tesla or renting a villa in Italy you might see me dinning out more and giving a nice tip to the waiter and that might be on a 2 week vacation in a warmer winter place (sharing a condo and rental car expense with close friends). Life balance is a key -- not too frugal not too free spending.

simas
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by simas » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:07 am

" I made a number of mistakes over weighting lower price vs better quality."

I think this is what wisdom is, all of us find their own balance and learn it over time.. I did the same going for lower price just to end up with questionable value (aka junk) and then doing it again right.

B. Wellington
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by B. Wellington » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:28 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
As with many people, the holidays are a time we catch up with old friends who are in town visiting family. Last night we had the pleasure of joining two such friends for dinner at a nice restaurant. We had a lovely time and very much enjoyed the evening and their company. Our bill was 2 or 3 times what we normally spend when we dine out, nothing absurd or near what you would pay in say Manhattan though, and it was quickly dispatched by the swipe of a card. It dawned on me this morning during my coffee that I had only noticed the amount so I could calculate the tip and that was a wonderful feeling. There was no thoughts about the total or why did I order that appetizer. For lack of better description it was a true sense of freedom to be devoid of financial concern and two thoughts came to me. First, I am truly blessed and fortunate to be in the financial position to view the check in that way, as no more than a signature. Second, that is the level of Financial Independence I want to have in retirement. I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance. Currently, I am not at that level but it is definitely achievable in a reason timeframe. So today as I look at my number, my assets and work I am invigorated and motivated a new. I have had what for me is an epiphany. I now have a crystal clear picture of exactly what I want financially instead of an abstract concept, and I understand how my work will help get me there. I have always believed understanding what is valuable to you is an important step on the road to being at peace and content, and today I feel I understand that better than I ever have. It is great to have my financial plan evolve from the pursuit of a number to focused picture of how I want my finances interacting within my life. Have any other BH had a similar epiphany?
Enjoyed reading this as well. Thanks for sharing TimeLord.

This past year the DW and I reached the milestone of "Basic" FI (financial independence) Just knowing that if anything should happen to me (or my job) that basic retirement would be met with "enough" for a few extras as well. The freedom you describe is wonderful and the day to day worries don't seem quite as important anymore... :beer

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by fmzip » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:58 am

FIREchief wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:27 am
2comma wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:15 am
TimeLord I know exactly what you were saying. I remember as a newlywed agonizing over a $17 box fan at Kmart - this was to get us through another sweltery southern summer. While I'll always be frugal by nature once I reached the point I could easily buy whatever I found was good value for the money, it was like a weight being lifted off of my shoulders and I never want to go back. Now I pay cash for new cars or to replace a roof or take an international vacation. Although I'll never feel right spending at the Tesla or first class international airfare level, It's a damn nice feeling being able to spend for enjoyment, necessity or emergency and not having to be concerned with the payment and that's all I've ever wanted out of my financial life.

Posters seem a little "crabby" tonight, perhaps a little too much Christmas shopping joy? Man, I hope I got my spelling, grammar, sentence structure and punctuation right!
Crabby!!!! I'll show you CRABBY!!!! (jk)

Your box fan story is a good one. Not surprisingly, somebody who once had to evaluate to buy a $17 fan, doesn't "feel right" about spending silly money on an exotic car or a few hours of marginally increased comfort in an airplane seat. Never forget your roots. It will make you a happier person. The person who is truly happy isn't the one who just blew $$$ on a Tesla or a $100 steak; it's the person who is very content driving their $20K Corolla through the drive up at McDonalds to buy the $5 mega McNugget deal. Something about that situation just sits very well in a true Boglehead stomach. If others really think they need to spend $100 for a meal to feel "happy", well, then, best wishes to them. Cmon', can I get an "Amen!"

Sorry, I have to say "heck no!". I don't spend the $100 on a meal to feel happy, I spend it because it's truly something very enjoyable, delightful, delectable. An evening out. I think that's the point of the OP.

I am as content as the person who is truly happy at the drive thru with the $5 nugget deal that they love as they devour each bite. My path is to keep me on track to continue to live life enjoying what I like. I bought a new house and a new car this year, don't think that's bad. It's a life choice, you only have one shot.

Maybe I don't have a true boglehead stomach. I'd prefer not to ever eat nuggets but to retire with a bunch of money continuing to live like as planned. If needed, adapting as well. Still, hopefully not to the McNugget level ;)

Stormbringer
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Stormbringer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:28 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance.
I think there is a fourth level of financial independence that has a profoundly powerful effect on the world in which we live:

4) Keeping score.
"Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe." - Albert Einstein

flyingaway
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by flyingaway » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:49 am

With friends, I go to a steak house or red lobster. For myself, I still like to go to McDonalds, easy, fast, and confident.

btenny
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by btenny » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:18 pm

Keno. We ate at the Punjab restaurant in the theater district. It is advertised as the oldest and and one of the best Indian food places In London. It has full 4-5 star reviews on Yelp and other review sites. My kids selected the spot. They were introduced to the place by a friend who lives in London and loves the place. The food was excellent and the service and atmosphere were also very nice. It was not that expensive for what all we ordered. We were lucky and went to dinner early and missed the crowded wait line to get in. But 30 minutes later the line was long and place was full.

Good Luck.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by TheTimeLord » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:27 pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance.
I think there is a fourth level of financial independence that has a profoundly powerful effect on the world in which we live:

4) Keeping score.
This is just my opinion, but I would think the majority of those people don't really understand what they actually want so they focus externally on something like keeping score. I could be way off base, but if I have what I truly want and I am content and at peace in my life it seems unlikely I would spend much effort coveting the things other have that I don't want.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by surfstar » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:26 pm

Since we bought our "house" (1/2 a duplex) a year ago, instead of "going out" for happy hours, we invite our friends over and have drinks/apps/etc at our place.

We have a ton of fun and see more people, more often. The cost is much less too (1 beer at "happy hour" = 4 beers at home).

I scrutinize almost every purchase, yet still buy items that aren't truly "needed." We are many years away from FI, but once we hit it, we're quitting the rat race. Spending less now and later means we will have less years until that happens. That's what is important to us.

We have a friend pulling the plug at age 39 and are truly happy (and jealous) for them. We hope to see them more often on our 3day weekend trips, once they're no longer working.


It is all relative. Our $40 happy hour for 8, feels as joyful as your overpriced meals out :mrgreen: :sharebeer
Beers and meals around a campfire feel ever more special than a $200 steak dinner.

My last camping/climbing trip to Joshua Tree, I spent time with a buddy who has saved up, moved into a bus/van and quit work for a while. Among the dirtbag climbers, he has "money" - lol - as some of his travel mates are truly dirtbagging it with dumpster diving and no alcohol funds. They are also living it up while they can and I'm sure feel as "rich" as many people here. (especially notable as I left on Sunday, while they stayed put - no "work" to have to leave for)

To each their own. Despite the Boglehead philosophy bringing us together on this forum, we have such diverse views and account balances, that a post like this will always get wide-ranging comments.
cheers :beer

Capsu78
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Capsu78 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:16 pm

Mike above posted:
BTW, I would not call this "abundance" but rather "enough".

+1, and I think at the crux of the OP's post. "Score keeping" among score keepers is a game that will never end. An important concept that relates to "happiness", but fewer focus on, is what constitutes "enough".

We are on the glide path to retirement, still accumulating, but with recognition that when we do start the decumulation stage, we go in confident that we will be able to "buy anything we want", just not "everything we want"...and with that, we have enough.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by GerryL » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:58 pm

Capsu78 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:16 pm
Mike above posted:
BTW, I would not call this "abundance" but rather "enough".

+1, and I think at the crux of the OP's post. "Score keeping" among score keepers is a game that will never end. An important concept that relates to "happiness", but fewer focus on, is what constitutes "enough".

We are on the glide path to retirement, still accumulating, but with recognition that when we do start the decumulation stage, we go in confident that we will be able to "buy anything we want", just not "everything we want"...and with that, we have enough. [YES!]
I call it "more than ENOUGH."
During my frugal working years, especially in the last couple of decades, I felt that I had enough. Although I lived modestly and saved a substantial portion of my earnings, I never felt deprived.

I even said -- but not loud enough for management to hear me -- that I would be doing fine even if I never got another raise. But I knew that at my company raises reflected how much your contributions were valued. If you weren't getting raises, your job could be in jeopardy. So I argued my case and won the raises. As a result, even though I was not aiming for MORE, I ended up with more than ENOUGH.

More than enough is, I believe, the kind of financial security, TimeLord was describing in the original post.

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wabbott
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by wabbott » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:23 pm

btenny wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:15 pm
I had a similar moment two weeks ago. I was startled at how lucky and good my life has gone. I worked hard and saved a lot and am now well into retirement. I was having dinner with my wife and my daughter and her husband. We had just watched a great theater play and were enjoying good Indian food in downtown London. I paid the bill with no worry about the price or the exchange rate or anything. I just signed.

I was thinking about how Life is Good.

Good Luck.
People who work hard, are disciplined savers/investors, and are informed consumers, are usually "lucky" when it comes to finances. Amazing, ain't it? My wife and I don't dine out much at all, except when on vacation. That's when we splurge. I've told her when ordering, "Pay no attention to the menu price. Order what you want to eat. That's what we saved for."

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Wildebeest
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Wildebeest » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:54 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:27 pm
Stormbringer wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance.
I think there is a fourth level of financial independence that has a profoundly powerful effect on the world in which we live:

4) Keeping score.
This is just my opinion, but I would think the majority of those people don't really understand what they actually want so they focus externally on something like keeping score. I could be way off base, but if I have what I truly want and I am content and at peace in my life it seems unlikely I would spend much effort coveting the things other have that I don't want.
I loved Stormbringer's fourth level: Keeping score. That means I might have reached the fifth level a short while ago as in that: who cares about the score, if you feel good about what you have. Or may be I am just stuck at a lower level of abundance ( I would hate to be stuck at level 1 or 2).

Please let me know what the sixth, seventh or may be even tenth level would be, I may want to aspire to.

It is good not to pinch pennies when you have the good fortune to let them roll.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

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Sandtrap
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Wildebeest wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:54 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:27 pm
Stormbringer wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance.
I think there is a fourth level of financial independence that has a profoundly powerful effect on the world in which we live:

4) Keeping score.
This is just my opinion, but I would think the majority of those people don't really understand what they actually want so they focus externally on something like keeping score. I could be way off base, but if I have what I truly want and I am content and at peace in my life it seems unlikely I would spend much effort coveting the things other have that I don't want.
I loved Stormbringer's fourth level: Keeping score. That means I might have reached the fifth level a short while ago as in that: who cares about the score, if you feel good about what you have. Or may be I am just stuck at a lower level of abundance ( I would hate to be stuck at level 1 or 2).

Please let me know what the sixth, seventh or may be even tenth level would be, I may want to aspire to.

It is good not to pinch pennies when you have the good fortune to let them roll.
The 6th level where one is beyond FI, beyond 25x, and well into retirement. The 2 comma club is a distant memory. IPS well formed and followed through. And, a nice residence in "Bogleheadville", paid for, of course. Where all the men and women are FI and don't talk about it anymore and focus on learning and paying it forward, where all the women are good looking, and all the children have IRA's and are better than average.

Taylor Larimore is on the 10th level that many aspire to.

Actionably: at the upper levels, FI and investment finance is now intuitive and comprehensive. Concepts fully internalized. No longer compartmentalized from life itself. It just "is".

j :D
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bighatnohorse
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by bighatnohorse » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:49 pm

Have any other BH had a similar epiphany?
Yes. We have the Luxury of Time.
It happened about a month ago. We were traveling and DW was making a plan that would get us home quickly.
It occurred to me that home would still be there for another day or two and that we could stop overnight to visit a place we hadn't been to before.

We can do as we like (within reason and our frugal temperament) and when we like.
We don't rush down the freeway fast lane. And sometimes I will program the GPS to avoid highways, finding that real adventures lie along those lesser routes.
And we might linger at a place we like, stop and smell the roses, as it were.

A financial adviser once said that there are three stages of retirement; "The go-go years, the slow go years and the no go years."
I think maybe we've reached the slow go years?

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by JDCarpenter » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:55 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:35 pm
surfstar wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:26 pm
Don't most studies show that people spend LESS in retirement than they thought they would?

I think you're trying to say that you are planning on spending MORE in retirement, just so that you can justify staying at work longer and letting your balances rise. (ergo One More Year)

Wait until the next market drop - that'll be another reason for One More Year.

Your heirs will be thankful that you don't want to retire. One More Post that is proving that this is your true desire.
I'm not familiar with those studies. Could you point me to one? The studies I'm aware of do show that most retiree's spending trends down as they get older, unless/until they wind up with expensive medical needs. Which I think is a really good idea. Spend the money while you can enjoy it.

Younger retirees with a yen to travel, play a lot of golf, etc can easily spend more on entertainment than they did while working. This might or might not be offset by things like paying off the house. Also the pre-medicare retiree may be looking at pretty hefty medical insurance costs.
Another TN boy here.... Agree.

We retired at end of July. We are already have spent, or are committed to spending, more than we spent while working (excluding federal income taxes) for the last half of 2017, all of 2018, and 2019. As I've previously discussed with TL, we didn't have the time to travel extensively while we both were working.

With regarding to TL's original post, we are in a similar situation with respect to travel and restaurants. Booking Galapagos? What is the best liveaboard diveboat? What is the best boat for land tours (for our nonluxurious preferences)? Book them. After the trip, we'll look at the expenditures when doing semi-annual planning. IF too high, we'll cut back on the cost in the solomons or Fiji--but don't shortchange ourselves on the more important trip. Yeah, it's nice.

As for restaurants, we don't live on either coast or Chicago, and are striving to get up to hitting restaurants more than twice a month, so we never look to closely at the cost of what we are ordering or the total bill. (Barring "market price" Toro, of course!) (And, yes, we still drive a Fit and a Civic....)

Of course, if our portfolio gets cut in half (very unlikely), we will shave spending appropriately.
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by MoonOrb » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:15 pm

I'm curious--for people mentioning "keeping score," what does this mean to you, and is it something you aspire to?

It has a really negative connotation for me...I'm wondering if maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

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Wildebeest
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Wildebeest » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:20 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:42 pm
Wildebeest wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:54 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:27 pm
Stormbringer wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am
I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance.
I think there is a fourth level of financial independence that has a profoundly powerful effect on the world in which we live:

4) Keeping score.
This is just my opinion, but I would think the majority of those people don't really understand what they actually want so they focus externally on something like keeping score. I could be way off base, but if I have what I truly want and I am content and at peace in my life it seems unlikely I would spend much effort coveting the things other have that I don't want.
I loved Stormbringer's fourth level: Keeping score. That means I might have reached the fifth level a short while ago as in that: who cares about the score, if you feel good about what you have. Or may be I am just stuck at a lower level of abundance ( I would hate to be stuck at level 1 or 2).

Please let me know what the sixth, seventh or may be even tenth level would be, I may want to aspire to.

It is good not to pinch pennies when you have the good fortune to let them roll.
The 6th level where one is beyond FI, beyond 25x, and well into retirement. The 2 comma club is a distant memory. IPS well formed and followed through. And, a nice residence in "Bogleheadville", paid for, of course. Where all the men and women are FI and don't talk about it anymore and focus on learning and paying it forward, where all the women are good looking, and all the children have IRA's and are better than average.

Taylor Larimore is on the 10th level that many aspire to.

Actionably: at the upper levels, FI and investment finance is now intuitive and comprehensive. Concepts fully internalized. No longer compartmentalized from life itself. It just "is".

j :D
Taylor is my hero. I would love to be so generous as he is, I guess the tenth level is beyond me and I have no idea what the 6 th, 7th, 8 th or 9th level would be.

I may be lucky to make it to the 3th ( no 4 th level of the Time Lord's scale ?).

On the other hand I feel fortunate I do not need a scale to feel good.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

Miriam2
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Miriam2 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:10 am

TheTimeLord wrote: . . . . I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance. Currently, I am not at that level but it is definitely achievable in a reason time frame. . . .
Perhaps I missed this, but where can we find your Three Levels of Financial Independence?

MidMNtom
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by MidMNtom » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:16 am

+1.

Thanks to both of you.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:22 am

Miriam2 wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:10 am
TheTimeLord wrote: . . . . I have posted about what I consider the 3 levels of Financial Independence before and to me this is the embodiment of the third level, what I call abundance. Currently, I am not at that level but it is definitely achievable in a reason time frame. . . .
Perhaps I missed this, but where can we find your Three Levels of Financial Independence?
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=228670
TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:10 am
I am nearing the end of my third OMY and have basically put retirement on hold indefinitely. Along my journey I have begun to realize there are at least 3 distinct phases of financial independence. I was wondering if anyone else agrees with this perspective. The 3 stages I have identified are:

1) Sufficiency - You can cover you basic expenses and take the occasional splurge but need to carefully plan for larger expenses like a new car or roof

2) Comfort/Enough - You have your basic expenses covered. You buy what you need when you need it and can take the trips or participate in the hobbies within reason but you still keep an eye on spending

3) Abundance - You have your basic expenses covered, you buy what you need when you need it and maybe upgrade when you do, you participate in hobbies or travel without regard to expense. The level of income your portfolio/pension/SS/etc. is expected to provide meaningfully exceeds the expectations you had just a decade ago.

These are very rough descriptions, but I took a shot at trying to come up with the essence of each phase.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

vested1
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by vested1 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:50 am

an_asker wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:01 pm

It is great to have my financial plan evolve from the pursuit of a number to focused picture of how I want my finances interacting within my life.
[/quote]

I think it would look more like this:
"It is great to have the Munchkin Man's financial plan evolve from the pursuit of a number to focused picture of how the Munchkin Man wants his finances interacting within his life."

We miss you Munchkin Man.

My epiphany came shortly after retirement, when I realized my "good enough" plan was truly good enough. We're not breaking any records on spending, but surprisingly, have the same level of spending as before with some left over.

More jarring to me are the spending habits of a few family members and friends, who in retirement have thrown caution to the wind. I don't think I'll ever get there, which may be a result of long periods of forced frugality, rather than having it become a choice. The ability to choose is, for me, a humbling gift.

Regardless, you are to be congratulated TimeLord. Some, if not most go to their graves never feeling the freedom to ignore the check.

Hopefully the Munchkin Man would approve of my sentence structure.

Capsu78
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Capsu78 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:01 am

GerryL wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:58 pm
Capsu78 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:16 pm
Mike above posted:
BTW, I would not call this "abundance" but rather "enough".

+1, and I think at the crux of the OP's post. "Score keeping" among score keepers is a game that will never end. An important concept that relates to "happiness", but fewer focus on, is what constitutes "enough".

We are on the glide path to retirement, still accumulating, but with recognition that when we do start the decumulation stage, we go in confident that we will be able to "buy anything we want", just not "everything we want"...and with that, we have enough. [YES!]
I call it "more than ENOUGH."
During my frugal working years, especially in the last couple of decades, I felt that I had enough. Although I lived modestly and saved a substantial portion of my earnings, I never felt deprived.

I even said -- but not loud enough for management to hear me -- that I would be doing fine even if I never got another raise. But I knew that at my company raises reflected how much your contributions were valued. If you weren't getting raises, your job could be in jeopardy. So I argued my case and won the raises. As a result, even though I was not aiming for MORE, I ended up with more than ENOUGH.

More than enough is, I believe, the kind of financial security, TimeLord was describing in the original post.
I won't know if we have "more than enough" until after the grave digger for the second one of us to die gets his tip! It won't matter to us, but that's when the kids can know we had more than enough!

chevca
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by chevca » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:06 am

I'm just wondering who all believes TheTimeLord actually has a "crystal clear" financial picture now? So, we will see no more threads about the latest bucket plan, or when to retire? Can we sticky this one somehow to reference for TiimeLord? :happy

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DWesterb2iz2
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by DWesterb2iz2 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:08 am

My revelation in financial security (55, debt-free, recently retired, FI) is a corollary to this one, or maybe an offshoot of it. I remind myself all the time that the cashier/waitstaff/difficult individual I'm irked by does not have my options at the moment, and likely has big stresses I don't have. In some ways it feels like walking around in a parallel universe.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by jojay » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:33 am

TheTimeLord,
First off, what a nice feeling for you! Your dream and concept of financial independence has been realized. Ahhh.
Like most of us, we knew that living below our means, saving, investing properly and so on would result in an accumulation of wealth. Also, like many of us, that manifestation could not be fully described while we were in the accumulation phase.
Now that you're more focused on the administration of the accumulation, your definition of wealth has manifested. Good for you. Not only do you have enough wealth to live on, you now realize what the definition of that wealth means to you.

What you call abundance is what we call peace. I like abundance better though. Maybe peaceful abundance. What a wonderful, wonderful feeling. Not only can we be at peace with what we spend, we have an abundance enough to maintain that peace. For some that is $10m, for others far less or far more.

I'd be very interested in reading your original concept of the three stages you refer to (or, to which you refer).

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Stormbringer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:36 am

MoonOrb wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:15 pm
I'm curious--for people mentioning "keeping score," what does this mean to you, and is it something you aspire to?

It has a really negative connotation for me...I'm wondering if maybe I'm misunderstanding it.
Well, there is a reason why people build homes like this:

Image

Capitalism by its very nature involves competition. We enjoy the fruits of that competition through better products and services and lower prices. But it has an uglier side as well, which is that some people becomes obsessed with "winning" (which generally means doing better than someone else) at all costs.

I used to work for a software company that was owned by a guy who came from a wealthy family that owns a sizable factory. He had a terrible relationship with his father, who shipped him off to boarding school and never gave him a dime for anything. He was driven by a desire to be more successful than his dad, which he achieved in his late 30's when he cashed in his company during the dotcom boom.

Personally, I take a certain amount of pride in doing well, but I don't keep score.
"Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe." - Albert Einstein

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TheTimeLord
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:04 am

chevca wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:06 am
I'm just wondering who all believes TheTimeLord actually has a "crystal clear" financial picture now? So, we will see no more threads about the latest bucket plan, or when to retire? Can we sticky this one somehow to reference for TiimeLord? :happy
Let me apologize for what I perceived as attempting to share in an open and transparent manner something I thought was a little unique. I realize my methodology of asset allocation differs from the one bucket orthodoxy but it has been an attempt to liability match not with physical purchases such as cars and a roof for the house but with the physical opportunities likely to occur in my life factoring age and health. You post is not unique in this thread and will try to take it into account when posting in the future. Thank you for your educational post, I realize you have attempted to communicate this several times before and I haven't been sensitive to it.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

Pigeye Brewster
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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Pigeye Brewster » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:58 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:04 am
chevca wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:06 am
I'm just wondering who all believes TheTimeLord actually has a "crystal clear" financial picture now? So, we will see no more threads about the latest bucket plan, or when to retire? Can we sticky this one somehow to reference for TiimeLord? :happy
Let me apologize for what I perceived as attempting to share in an open and transparent manner something I thought was a little unique. I realize my methodology of asset allocation differs from the one bucket orthodoxy but it has been an attempt to liability match not with physical purchases such as cars and a roof for the house but with the physical opportunities likely to occur in my life factoring age and health. You post is not unique in this thread and will try to take it into account when posting in the future. Thank you for your educational post, I realize you have attempted to communicate this several times before and I haven't been sensitive to it.
I've enjoyed your open and transparent sharing. A banquet of food for thought. Thanks.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:07 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:20 pm
Please separate your text into paragraphs. It's difficult to read it the way you presented it.
spammagnet wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:19 pm
Paragraph breaks added so others will benefit from reading the whole thing. No change of content.
Funny - I liked the original version better. It conveyed to me more about how genuine TimeLord was when he made this post.


TimeLord: Thanks for sharing this story! My greatest/proudest moment of success was when my kids started applying to college and I told my wife we could afford to send them with $0 loans. A lifetime of hard-work and savings/investing paid off for one of my 2 lifetime goals.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by Puakinekine » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:52 pm

I thought that perhaps someone would post this idea but I did not see a mention of it in my quick skim through. There are a lot of people not any where near this level of comfort for whatever reason. I don't really care at this point as to the why. But, please, all of you who can now not worry about money, help those who worry every second of the day. Many of you remember what it was like. If it is easy to spend a couple of hundred dollars on a restaurant meal, it is equally as easy to contribute an equal amount of money to a local food bank. Those of us who have made it, no matter what our definition of making it is, can now afford to be kind.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by GerryL » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:41 pm

Puakinekine wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:52 pm
I thought that perhaps someone would post this idea but I did not see a mention of it in my quick skim through. There are a lot of people not any where near this level of comfort for whatever reason. I don't really care at this point as to the why. But, please, all of you who can now not worry about money, help those who worry every second of the day. Many of you remember what it was like. If it is easy to spend a couple of hundred dollars on a restaurant meal, it is equally as easy to contribute an equal amount of money to a local food bank. Those of us who have made it, no matter what our definition of making it is, can now afford to be kind.
I very much remember "what it was like." It was not really that long ago (1992) when I was sitting right where I am sitting right now, more than a year unemployed with no job in sight and wondering if I might lose my home. One of the keys to my eventual financial success was maintaining a modest lifestyle even when I could have ramped up my spending. In other words, if you can find satisfaction -- and, yes, happiness -- with less (less than you might imagine; less than people around you) you are more likely to arrive at the point where you "have made it."

Sharing this kind of experience on this forum is not about bragging. It is about encouraging people who aren't there yet that they can get there too.

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Re: A meal with friends yields a financial revelation

Post by spammagnet » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:46 pm

Puakinekine wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:52 pm
I thought that perhaps someone would post this idea but I did not see a mention of it in my quick skim through. There are a lot of people not any where near this level of comfort for whatever reason. I don't really care at this point as to the why. But, please, all of you who can now not worry about money, help those who worry every second of the day. Many of you remember what it was like. If it is easy to spend a couple of hundred dollars on a restaurant meal, it is equally as easy to contribute an equal amount of money to a local food bank. Those of us who have made it, no matter what our definition of making it is, can now afford to be kind.
I took it as encouragement, not bragging. There is light at the end of the tunnel and, by sticking with a plan, you can get there. Different people will always have different spending levels but most can find financial security.

Yes, some people are burdened by ill health, family issues outside their control, bad choices in the past or just plain bad luck. We should not ignore them in our comments but modest success stories by those who worked hard to get there should not be dismissed.

Edit: the actionable point is to make a plan and stick with it but this topic may well be played out.

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