Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 19510
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by VictoriaF »

Earl Lemongrab wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:41 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:05 pm I favor social-studies findings derived from control experiments over subjective perceptions. Daniel Kahneman uses a concept of What You See Is All There Is (WYSIATI). You notice when you control your spending; you don't notice it when you don't. However. for most Bogleheads, slight overspending with reward credit cards is more than compensated by travel savings.
But paying cash is not the only way to control spending. It's not even the best way, in my opinion. I've mentioned before that I carefully consider every expenditure either by class (some things I've decided are always buys) or specific instance. Every cent that leaves my pocket, literal or otherwise, I know where it is going and why. THAT is how you control spending. Then how you pay is irrelevant to what you spend.
We have discussed this before. You are likely an exception. In fact, having a budget, planning all spending ahead, recording expenses immediately, and analyzing one's spending patterns are excellent countermeasures against overspending--whether it's a credit card or cash.

There was another experiment where the participants were primed with financial words and images. After such priming they behaved differently from the control group in that they were more solitary, less helpful to others, and more self-reliant. Regularly revisiting your financial goals and keeping track of your progress are good ways to control impulses to spend.

However, when we speak about the population at large, and specifically David Ramsey's audience, as Mudpuppy has pointed out, the heat of the credit card bonuses chase may overpower cool reason.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
hoops777
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by hoops777 »

TomCat96 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:53 pm Dave Ramsey is catering the to average american with zero financial literacy. For them indeed, it is safer to rule out credit cards all together.

You are a person with a brain. You know yourself. You know your habits. You know whether you can control your own spending or not. It's that simple.

But if you need the voice of a person to tell you no credit cards because you need an authoritative black and white rule then so be it.

For the rest of us, it's:

-Spend money. -Get some points. Pay back balance in full each month. It's an issue of personal restraint. not economic analysis.

There is no need to get into studies. There is no need to post research on the average american. There is no need to analyze the finer theoretical implications. There is no need to parse words and figure out what Dave Ramsey "really" means.
Well said and 100 pct correct.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 6550
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by Nate79 »

I disagree with the premise that Dave Ramsey is only for average Americans, low to mid income with no financial knowledge. This seems to say that the financially literate are somehow better and above the message that Dave preaches. The many millionaire hours of Dave Ramsey followers that call in show that you can be just as if not more financially successful living the Dave Ramsey life as the Boglehead life.
MarcVH
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:03 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by MarcVH »

hightower wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:35 pm His argument is that there have been studies done that show people spend more when they use plastic then they would if they used only cash.
Do you buy it? Does this change your approach to using credit cards?
Implicit is the idea that "spending more" is an unqualified bad thing and "spending less" is an unqualified good thing. In this case, there's an easy way to spend even less: don't have credit cards, nor checks, nor cash, nor any other form of payment. This virtually guarantees that you will spend less.

This may, of course, result in some inconvenience and a reduced quality of life. And that's what this really is about; how to balance spending money with other competing goals.
User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 19510
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by VictoriaF »

Nate79 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:17 pm I disagree with the premise that Dave Ramsey is only for average Americans, low to mid income with no financial knowledge. This seems to say that the financially literate are somehow better and above the message that Dave preaches. The many millionaire hours of Dave Ramsey followers that call in show that you can be just as if not more financially successful living the Dave Ramsey life as the Boglehead life.
You reminded me of George Carlin:
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
ChrisC
Posts: 940
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:10 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by ChrisC »

VictoriaF wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:42 pm
Nate79 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:17 pm I disagree with the premise that Dave Ramsey is only for average Americans, low to mid income with no financial knowledge. This seems to say that the financially literate are somehow better and above the message that Dave preaches. The many millionaire hours of Dave Ramsey followers that call in show that you can be just as if not more financially successful living the Dave Ramsey life as the Boglehead life.
You reminded me of George Carlin:
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

Victoria
And that reminded me of another quote attributed to George Carlin:

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
User avatar
knpstr
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:57 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by knpstr »

azanon wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:52 pm I've read that 1-2 glasses of red wine a day for men, and up to 1 glass a day for women is healthier than 0 glasses. So not only, not harmful, but beneficial. And one of the two benefits is the alcohol units itself. Cursory google searches would provide credible sources for this (if you insist, I could provide them, and probably will be multiple studies).

But I'm willing to concede just "not harmful", despite researching showing its beneficial; just like my 2.5% cash back USAA card is beneficial.

There's more that's relevant to overall health than just your chances of getting cancer.
There are suspected benefits. I haven't read anything framing alcohol in the way you did (healthier to drink it than to not drink it).

Specifically for red wine the resveratrol (which can be consumed by supplementation) and the blood thinning (beneficial for heart/clogging of the arteries) properties of alcohol (which can be achieved by other means, curcumin for example). So one can achieve the suspected beneficial aspects of alcohol, without consuming the harmful ethanol.

Even the Mayo Clinic website states: "When it comes to alcohol, the key is moderation. Certainly, you don't have to drink any alcohol, and if you currently don't drink, don't start drinking for the possible health benefits. In some cases, it's safest to avoid alcohol entirely — the possible benefits don't outweigh the risks. Moderate alcohol use may be of most benefit if you have existing risk factors for heart disease. However, you can take other steps to improve your heart health besides drinking — eating a healthy diet and exercising, for example, which have more robust research behind them."
(emphasis mine)

Which is why I stated, the best course of action is to not drink any alcohol, but it may be safe in small amounts.
or in the analogy, the best course of action is to avoid all debt, but it may be okay in certain situations.

In my own opinion, both of the statements are quite reasonable.

**In full disclosure I actually do drink red wine quite regularly. But I drink it because I enjoy it, not for "health" reasons. I do use credit cards that I pay in full (otherwise actively paying down my only debts which is real estate debt, I actually sent in a check to pay off 1 property today!)
:beer
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius
User avatar
Lancelot
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by Lancelot »

ThePrince wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
Lancelot wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm
grettman wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am What DRIVES ME NUTs about his credit card advice is he says over and over "No one has gotten wealthy with credit card points / rewards".

He misses the point when people call and ask him about this. They aren't asking if CCs will make you wealthy. They ask if it is okay to pay off the CCs monthly and earn points while you are at it. Overstating things and obfuscation are Dave's number 1 and number 2 moves in his playbook.

I get it that he doesn't want people to play "kissy face" with debt. But can't he explain it without being so obvious about dodging the real question?
Yeah Dave being Dave. I listened to the pod cast and, as usual, Dave was condescending to the caller, saying "Are you smarter than Well's Fargo? Schwab?" Referencing the research those firms did with respect to "pain points" of using cash instead of plastic.

In the age of reality TV, we now have financial theater; people asking permission/validation to make purchases and investments.
Are you/we smarter than Wells Fargo, Schwab, etc? Collectively, society isn’t. That is Dave’s point.
Apologists will defend Dave and support his preaching that we are not smart enough to manage our finances with out his perpetual guidance.
No Where for Very Long...
User avatar
knpstr
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:57 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by knpstr »

Lancelot wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm
ThePrince wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
Lancelot wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm
grettman wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am What DRIVES ME NUTs about his credit card advice is he says over and over "No one has gotten wealthy with credit card points / rewards".

He misses the point when people call and ask him about this. They aren't asking if CCs will make you wealthy. They ask if it is okay to pay off the CCs monthly and earn points while you are at it. Overstating things and obfuscation are Dave's number 1 and number 2 moves in his playbook.

I get it that he doesn't want people to play "kissy face" with debt. But can't he explain it without being so obvious about dodging the real question?
Yeah Dave being Dave. I listened to the pod cast and, as usual, Dave was condescending to the caller, saying "Are you smarter than Well's Fargo? Schwab?" Referencing the research those firms did with respect to "pain points" of using cash instead of plastic.

In the age of reality TV, we now have financial theater; people asking permission/validation to make purchases and investments.
Are you/we smarter than Wells Fargo, Schwab, etc? Collectively, society isn’t. That is Dave’s point.
Apologists will defend Dave and support his preaching that we are not smart enough to manage our finances with out his perpetual guidance.
Look at it from his point of view. He says eliminate ALL debt. Cut up all the credit cards.

...then people call and ask if credit cards okay if you pay them off. :oops:
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius
ThePrince
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:15 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by ThePrince »

bloom2708 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:20 pm I like most of Dave Ramsey's advice.

His target audience is not the typical Boglehead reader. If you have a good salary, low debt and are "killing it Boglehead style", then you probably don't have to follow his advice on debt or credit card usage.

We use a couple "rewards" credit cards and pay them off monthly (multiple times per month).

Do we spend more because it is super easy, fast and simple to "swipe". Absolutely. You are kidding yourself if you don't think you spend more.

Go out shopping with only $X cash. Or only with cash and your checkbook with only $x in your account. You can't spend more than you have. You have to go get that cash. You have to plan. Even if payday is only Y days away and you'll have the money then.

Small, medium or large impulse purchases can happen at any time. Just swipe and worry about it later. No comparison shopping, no "I'll wait and see if I really need this" time.

If you really want to outsmart yourself, then use credit cards as little as possible. If you don't care or "good enough" is good enough, then use them freely and tell us about your $10k trips all bought with reasonable spending on your reward cards. Easy as that.
+1
ThePrince
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:15 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by ThePrince »

Nate79 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:17 pm I disagree with the premise that Dave Ramsey is only for average Americans, low to mid income with no financial knowledge. This seems to say that the financially literate are somehow better and above the message that Dave preaches. The many millionaire hours of Dave Ramsey followers that call in show that you can be just as if not more financially successful living the Dave Ramsey life as the Boglehead life.
+1
takeshi
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:02 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by takeshi »

hightower wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:35 pm What does every else think?
Do whatever works for you. If Dave Ramsey's approach is of benefit to you then by all means go for it. It's not for me but that doesn't necessarily mean anything for you. People vary.
Last edited by takeshi on Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ThePrince
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:15 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by ThePrince »

Lancelot wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm
ThePrince wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
Lancelot wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm
grettman wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am What DRIVES ME NUTs about his credit card advice is he says over and over "No one has gotten wealthy with credit card points / rewards".

He misses the point when people call and ask him about this. They aren't asking if CCs will make you wealthy. They ask if it is okay to pay off the CCs monthly and earn points while you are at it. Overstating things and obfuscation are Dave's number 1 and number 2 moves in his playbook.

I get it that he doesn't want people to play "kissy face" with debt. But can't he explain it without being so obvious about dodging the real question?
Yeah Dave being Dave. I listened to the pod cast and, as usual, Dave was condescending to the caller, saying "Are you smarter than Well's Fargo? Schwab?" Referencing the research those firms did with respect to "pain points" of using cash instead of plastic.

In the age of reality TV, we now have financial theater; people asking permission/validation to make purchases and investments.
Are you/we smarter than Wells Fargo, Schwab, etc? Collectively, society isn’t. That is Dave’s point.
Apologists will defend Dave and support his preaching that we are not smart enough to manage our finances with out his perpetual guidance.
He preaches common sense and as you know, common sense isn’t all that common.
User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 19510
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by VictoriaF »

knpstr wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:01 pm
Lancelot wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm
ThePrince wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
Lancelot wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm
grettman wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am What DRIVES ME NUTs about his credit card advice is he says over and over "No one has gotten wealthy with credit card points / rewards".

He misses the point when people call and ask him about this. They aren't asking if CCs will make you wealthy. They ask if it is okay to pay off the CCs monthly and earn points while you are at it. Overstating things and obfuscation are Dave's number 1 and number 2 moves in his playbook.

I get it that he doesn't want people to play "kissy face" with debt. But can't he explain it without being so obvious about dodging the real question?
Yeah Dave being Dave. I listened to the pod cast and, as usual, Dave was condescending to the caller, saying "Are you smarter than Well's Fargo? Schwab?" Referencing the research those firms did with respect to "pain points" of using cash instead of plastic.

In the age of reality TV, we now have financial theater; people asking permission/validation to make purchases and investments.
Are you/we smarter than Wells Fargo, Schwab, etc? Collectively, society isn’t. That is Dave’s point.
Apologists will defend Dave and support his preaching that we are not smart enough to manage our finances with out his perpetual guidance.
Look at it from his point of view. He says eliminate ALL debt. Cut up all the credit cards.

...then people call and ask if credit cards okay if you pay them off. :oops:
I am now in the midst of a "natural experiment." I have lost my CSP card which I normally use for travel and restaurants. While waiting for Chase to send me a replacement card, I am abstaining from eating out.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
User avatar
Lancelot
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by Lancelot »

ThePrince wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:46 pm
Lancelot wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm
ThePrince wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
Lancelot wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm
grettman wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am What DRIVES ME NUTs about his credit card advice is he says over and over "No one has gotten wealthy with credit card points / rewards".

He misses the point when people call and ask him about this. They aren't asking if CCs will make you wealthy. They ask if it is okay to pay off the CCs monthly and earn points while you are at it. Overstating things and obfuscation are Dave's number 1 and number 2 moves in his playbook.

I get it that he doesn't want people to play "kissy face" with debt. But can't he explain it without being so obvious about dodging the real question?
Yeah Dave being Dave. I listened to the pod cast and, as usual, Dave was condescending to the caller, saying "Are you smarter than Well's Fargo? Schwab?" Referencing the research those firms did with respect to "pain points" of using cash instead of plastic.

In the age of reality TV, we now have financial theater; people asking permission/validation to make purchases and investments.
Are you/we smarter than Wells Fargo, Schwab, etc? Collectively, society isn’t. That is Dave’s point.
Apologists will defend Dave and support his preaching that we are not smart enough to manage our finances with out his perpetual guidance.
He preaches common sense and as you know, common sense isn’t all that common.
OK Dave :D
No Where for Very Long...
avalpert
Posts: 6313
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by avalpert »

ThePrince wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:46 pm
Lancelot wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm
ThePrince wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:32 pm
Lancelot wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm
grettman wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am What DRIVES ME NUTs about his credit card advice is he says over and over "No one has gotten wealthy with credit card points / rewards".

He misses the point when people call and ask him about this. They aren't asking if CCs will make you wealthy. They ask if it is okay to pay off the CCs monthly and earn points while you are at it. Overstating things and obfuscation are Dave's number 1 and number 2 moves in his playbook.

I get it that he doesn't want people to play "kissy face" with debt. But can't he explain it without being so obvious about dodging the real question?
Yeah Dave being Dave. I listened to the pod cast and, as usual, Dave was condescending to the caller, saying "Are you smarter than Well's Fargo? Schwab?" Referencing the research those firms did with respect to "pain points" of using cash instead of plastic.

In the age of reality TV, we now have financial theater; people asking permission/validation to make purchases and investments.
Are you/we smarter than Wells Fargo, Schwab, etc? Collectively, society isn’t. That is Dave’s point.
Apologists will defend Dave and support his preaching that we are not smart enough to manage our finances with out his perpetual guidance.
He preaches common sense and as you know, common sense isn’t all that common.
Actually I find common sense to not be all that sensible - and I do associate that with what Ramsey's preaches.

But hey, he has found a lucrative audience and isn't' that what matters in the end?
azanon
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:34 am

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by azanon »

knpstr wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:32 pm
azanon wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:52 pm I've read that 1-2 glasses of red wine a day for men, and up to 1 glass a day for women is healthier than 0 glasses. So not only, not harmful, but beneficial. And one of the two benefits is the alcohol units itself. Cursory google searches would provide credible sources for this (if you insist, I could provide them, and probably will be multiple studies).

But I'm willing to concede just "not harmful", despite researching showing its beneficial; just like my 2.5% cash back USAA card is beneficial.

There's more that's relevant to overall health than just your chances of getting cancer.
There are suspected benefits. I haven't read anything framing alcohol in the way you did (healthier to drink it than to not drink it).

Specifically for red wine the resveratrol (which can be consumed by supplementation) and the blood thinning (beneficial for heart/clogging of the arteries) properties of alcohol (which can be achieved by other means, curcumin for example). So one can achieve the suspected beneficial aspects of alcohol, without consuming the harmful ethanol.

Even the Mayo Clinic website states: "When it comes to alcohol, the key is moderation. Certainly, you don't have to drink any alcohol, and if you currently don't drink, don't start drinking for the possible health benefits. In some cases, it's safest to avoid alcohol entirely — the possible benefits don't outweigh the risks. Moderate alcohol use may be of most benefit if you have existing risk factors for heart disease. However, you can take other steps to improve your heart health besides drinking — eating a healthy diet and exercising, for example, which have more robust research behind them."
(emphasis mine)

Which is why I stated, the best course of action is to not drink any alcohol, but it may be safe in small amounts.
or in the analogy, the best course of action is to avoid all debt, but it may be okay in certain situations.

In my own opinion, both of the statements are quite reasonable.

**In full disclosure I actually do drink red wine quite regularly. But I drink it because I enjoy it, not for "health" reasons. I do use credit cards that I pay in full (otherwise actively paying down my only debts which is real estate debt, I actually sent in a check to pay off 1 property today!)
:beer
This is just a small sample from 5 minutes worth of googling; by no means even scratching the surface

>8 Health benefits of drinking wine: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/8-h ... nking-wine
>Sharecare (formally realage.com) gives you extra life (i believe close to a year) if you drink one glass of wine. Everything they use is based on research.
>Article (due to research) "Best New ever:One drink a day is Better than None": https://www.thedailybeast.com/best-news ... -than-none
> I couldn't find the article I read with the u-shaped graph showing reduced health on the y axis, and # of drinks on the x axis (1 drink was the bottom of the "U" )
> If you consume too much of anything you can think of, it's not good for you. Even water.

I have no further comment on this because it was never my intent to go off-topic from the thread title. I think my original analogy was solid. I'm sorry you didn't agree.
AntsOnTheMarch
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by AntsOnTheMarch »

I bet if you drill down to spending habits, you’ll find that most longtime bogleheads (whether they spend a lot or a little) are doing what they like and in a responsible way. So some dubious savings from paying with cash are neither here nor there. We spend what need to and any extra that we want to.

The reason for this, I believe, is that we (I include myself) understand opportunity cost. I know that every penny that flows out of my pocket—regardless the payment method—is costing me something somewhere else; an opportunity to spend, save, or not work a set amount of time if I don’t spend it.

I heard an economist on NPR one time explain that he did a study where he interviewed people buying cars about this. The car buyers he interviewed simply couldn’t understand opportunity cost when put to the test. The most they could fathom is that they should buy a Toyota instead of a Honda because the Toyota was a better deal. They simply couldn’t understand that the money they spent or credit they used cost them an opportunity somewhere else. For this reason, I have suggested the book “your money or your life” to many friends over the decades. I don’t think any have read it though.
User avatar
knpstr
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:57 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by knpstr »

azanon wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:12 pm This is just a small sample from 5 minutes worth of googling; by no means even scratching the surface

>8 Health benefits of drinking wine: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/8-h ... nking-wine
>Sharecare (formally realage.com) gives you extra life (i believe close to a year) if you drink one glass of wine. Everything they use is based on research.
>Article (due to research) "Best New ever:One drink a day is Better than None": https://www.thedailybeast.com/best-news ... -than-none
> I couldn't find the article I read with the u-shaped graph showing reduced health on the y axis, and # of drinks on the x axis (1 drink was the bottom of the "U" )
> If you consume too much of anything you can think of, it's not good for you. Even water.

I have no further comment on this because it was never my intent to go off-topic from the thread title. I think my original analogy was solid. I'm sorry you didn't agree.
Agree to disagree. I'm of the opinion the Mayo Clinic provides overall better health information/interpretation and more up-to-date information than blogs citing preliminary studies from 12 years ago.

For example, your article in the daily beast links to a 2015 research article. It also specifically addresses heart failure, which as stated can be reduced via other methods (diet/exercise) than alcohol (thus avoiding the potential harmful effects of alcohol). The food and wine blog cites a 2005 article saying it reduces colon cancer!? The cancer article was written in 2017 states that it increases your chances of colon (among other) cancers! As you may have noticed, recommendations change.

Again is alcohol okay in moderation? Probably. Would it be a best practice to recommend avoiding it all together? Probably.

There have been published studies (from 1960) having shown smoking cigarettes may lower one's risk of getting Parkinson's disease. Or may even give relief to those with UC. I hope you don't think it is okay to smoke for the health benefits!
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius
azanon
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:34 am

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by azanon »

knpstr wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:58 am
azanon wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:12 pm This is just a small sample from 5 minutes worth of googling; by no means even scratching the surface

>8 Health benefits of drinking wine: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/8-h ... nking-wine
>Sharecare (formally realage.com) gives you extra life (i believe close to a year) if you drink one glass of wine. Everything they use is based on research.
>Article (due to research) "Best New ever:One drink a day is Better than None": https://www.thedailybeast.com/best-news ... -than-none
> I couldn't find the article I read with the u-shaped graph showing reduced health on the y axis, and # of drinks on the x axis (1 drink was the bottom of the "U" )
> If you consume too much of anything you can think of, it's not good for you. Even water.

I have no further comment on this because it was never my intent to go off-topic from the thread title. I think my original analogy was solid. I'm sorry you didn't agree.
Agree to disagree. I'm of the opinion the Mayo Clinic provides overall better health information/interpretation and more up-to-date information than blogs citing preliminary studies from 12 years ago.

For example, your article in the daily beast links to a 2015 research article. It also specifically addresses heart failure, which as stated can be reduced via other methods (diet/exercise) than alcohol (thus avoiding the potential harmful effects of alcohol). The food and wine blog cites a 2005 article saying it reduces colon cancer!? The cancer article was written in 2017 states that it increases your chances of colon (among other) cancers! As you may have noticed, recommendations change.

Again is alcohol okay in moderation? Probably. Would it be a best practice to recommend avoiding it all together? Probably.

There have been published studies (from 1960) having shown smoking cigarettes may lower one's risk of getting Parkinson's disease. Or may even give relief to those with UC. I hope you don't think it is okay to smoke for the health benefits!
I have no issue with your position now at all. I'm totally cool with "potential harmful effects of alcohol" (the average sharp joe that visits here reads even you're not conceding that it's matter-of-fact harmful) or that it's (paraphrase) "probably ok in moderation". You can always study something more, and who knows what new research might find. You know they do the same song-and-dance with coffee; some say up to 6 drinks/day is fine, others stay even 1 drink/day might be harmful.

Back to the whole original analogy, Dave position is as a matter of fact that credit cards are bad. But the truth is, there's plenty that would dispute that, just like there are plenty that would dispute the claim that any amount of alcohol is harmful. Another site I didn't link was a practicing, prominent cardiologist that encourages one glass of red wine with your evening meal. And let's not forget that ever-important anecdotal testimony which is that I've done it for years and I'd swear by it.

So we're good - AFAIK we agree now, or are close enough to it.
vested1
Posts: 2264
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:20 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by vested1 »

ChrisC wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:53 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:42 pm
Nate79 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:17 pm I disagree with the premise that Dave Ramsey is only for average Americans, low to mid income with no financial knowledge. This seems to say that the financially literate are somehow better and above the message that Dave preaches. The many millionaire hours of Dave Ramsey followers that call in show that you can be just as if not more financially successful living the Dave Ramsey life as the Boglehead life.
You reminded me of George Carlin:
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

Victoria
And that reminded me of another quote attributed to George Carlin:

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
Two belly laughs for the price of one: Priceless! :sharebeer
User avatar
prudent
Moderator
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 2:50 pm

Re: Dave Ramsey says don't use credit cards, even if you pay them off

Post by prudent »

Topic is locked (topic exhausted).
Locked