Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

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Tabulator
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Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Tabulator »

Though I am late to the electric party, late is better than never. I keep hearing about the advantages of battery-powered cars. No longer will I be left out. I have decided a used Leaf will be my next and only car. My question to those of you in the know is about learning. I am sure the internet abounds with information. Few things do I hate more, though, than reading on a screen. Since I will probably not buy from a dealer, there will be no salesperson to help.

Lo, Amazon can deliver:
Title The Electric Car Guide: Nissan Leaf
Author Michael Boxwell
Edition illustrated
Publisher Greenstream Publishing, 2015
ISBN 1907670483, 9781907670480
Length 95 pages
Has anyone discovered a better learning resource? This book is a few years old and intended for readers who live outside North America.
DavidRoseMountain
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by DavidRoseMountain »

Here's an interesting blog post about the federal tax credit and leasing a Nissan Leaf

https://everettpowered-evs.blogspot.com ... mment-form
Valuethinker
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Valuethinker »

Tabulator wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:54 am Though I am late to the electric party, late is better than never. I keep hearing about the advantages of battery-powered cars. No longer will I be left out. I have decided a used Leaf will be my next and only car. My question to those of you in the know is about learning. I am sure the internet abounds with information. Few things do I hate more, though, than reading on a screen. Since I will probably not buy from a dealer, there will be no salesperson to help.

Lo, Amazon can deliver:
Title The Electric Car Guide: Nissan Leaf
Author Michael Boxwell
Edition illustrated
Publisher Greenstream Publishing, 2015
ISBN 1907670483, 9781907670480
Length 95 pages
Has anyone discovered a better learning resource? This book is a few years old and intended for readers who live outside North America.
Blogs and user Forums will be your most up to date source.

Also check Consumer Reports and other car review forums.

You want to rent one for a period of time before buying. Or somehow get access to it. Because of the step change in technology and what has been called to me (by someone working for BMW) as a "usership" model, the risk to a buyer is greater than it would be otherwise.
Valuethinker
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Valuethinker »

Tabulator wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:54 am Though I am late to the electric party, late is better than never. I keep hearing about the advantages of battery-powered cars. No longer will I be left out.
None of that is really true?

You are not late, for cars that have less than 1% market share. I might as well say "I am late to the steam car party"? (I am, and they were in many ways a superior technology to ICE-- but the best technology does not always win the market war).

Advantages? Isn't mostly what you hear about is how, maybe, it has overcome the obvious disadvantage? i.e. the range anxiety problem *and* the time taken to "refill"?

"left out"? No one can say, that, yet. There will be a moment, and I think it is 10-15 years away perhaps, when the tipping point will be hit. But this will be a societal decision not an individual consumer decision. The people who will take those decisions are probably 30 now and not visible to us, in most organizations and contexts.

I would say a Chevy Volt is a better bet in many ways *unless* your usage of a vehicle really only is commuter &/or errands, and for longer trips you either don't use a car, or are prepared to rent. And I am still not sure about range in a classic Continental climate (90s & humid in summer; minus 10s in winter). Or for running around the city, a BMW i3? (much more expensive, alas).

Understand my biases. In 20-25 years it will be difficult or impossible to buy an ICE car in developed countries. For reasons we cannot discuss here.
I have decided a used Leaf will be my next and only car. My question to those of you in the know is about learning. I am sure the internet abounds with information. Few things do I hate more, though, than reading on a screen. Since I will probably not buy from a dealer, there will be no salesperson to help.
So no tax credit on a used EV?

Car dealers are not your friends-- they will not tell you the truth. No harm, though, in going to a showroom or two and trying out the latest models.
usually you can book a test drive.

I would suggest you find internet sources and print them out. For various reasons I have trouble with on screen reading, and for articles I copy (Ctrl C) and paste (Ctrl V) onto MS Word documents. Then print them out.
Lo, Amazon can deliver:
Title The Electric Car Guide: Nissan Leaf
Author Michael Boxwell
Edition illustrated
Publisher Greenstream Publishing, 2015
ISBN 1907670483, 9781907670480
Length 95 pages
Has anyone discovered a better learning resource? This book is a few years old and intended for readers who live outside North America.
Technology is moving too fast for old books to be more than general use (but I read Carry Wu's book on the Apple Macintosh, when that PC came out in 1984 (?), and it was helpful).
Slacker
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Slacker »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:47 am
Tabulator wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:54 am Though I am late to the electric party, late is better than never. I keep hearing about the advantages of battery-powered cars. No longer will I be left out.
None of that is really true?

You are not late, for cars that have less than 1% market share. I might as well say "I am late to the steam car party"? (I am, and they were in many ways a superior technology to ICE-- but the best technology does not always win the market war).

Advantages? Isn't mostly what you hear about is how, maybe, it has overcome the obvious disadvantage? i.e. the range anxiety problem *and* the time taken to "refill"?
...
I would say a Chevy Volt is a better bet in many ways *unless* your usage of a vehicle really only is commuter &/or errands, and for longer trips you either don't use a car, or are prepared to rent. And I am still not sure about range in a classic Continental climate (90s & humid in summer; minus 10s in winter). Or for running around the city, a BMW i3? (much more expensive, alas).

...
I would think the disadvantages were a bit overblown as too many average people concentrate on the 5% of use cases far too often.

I think having a full "tank" (charged battery) every morning, little to no maintenance and never visiting a gas station again are great advantages.

For the disadvantages, clearly there are plug-in hybrids like you point out or one can have a second vehicle that is gas powered (our household - one plug in hybrid and one gas powered vehicle but we'll eventually be one plug in hybrid and one full electric) . I think renting is also a great option. My wife was just talking about how her friend wants her to drive over to their state to visit and I'm telling her it probably is better to just fly and rent a car when you get there -> who really wants to sit in a car for a 7hr drive (2hrs of that drive sitting in LA traffic) and put unnecessary wear and tear on the vehicle.

To the OP -> sorry, I don't have any recommendations on books. Maybe find some blog posts and print the posts to paper? I have heard that a kindle is less straining on the eyes -> maybe print blog posts to PDF and read on a kindle? Perhaps you can adjust your lighting situation at home for making reading the computer screen easier on the eyes. I've read that setting the screen brightness to basically match the ambient brightness in the room can help reduce eye strain.
Valuethinker
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Valuethinker »

Slacker wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:09 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:47 am
Tabulator wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:54 am Though I am late to the electric party, late is better than never. I keep hearing about the advantages of battery-powered cars. No longer will I be left out.
None of that is really true?

You are not late, for cars that have less than 1% market share. I might as well say "I am late to the steam car party"? (I am, and they were in many ways a superior technology to ICE-- but the best technology does not always win the market war).

Advantages? Isn't mostly what you hear about is how, maybe, it has overcome the obvious disadvantage? i.e. the range anxiety problem *and* the time taken to "refill"?
...
I would say a Chevy Volt is a better bet in many ways *unless* your usage of a vehicle really only is commuter &/or errands, and for longer trips you either don't use a car, or are prepared to rent. And I am still not sure about range in a classic Continental climate (90s & humid in summer; minus 10s in winter). Or for running around the city, a BMW i3? (much more expensive, alas).

...
I would think the disadvantages were a bit overblown as too many average people concentrate on the 5% of use cases far too often.
I agree with you but I was attempting to counterpoint the tone of the original post. The sense of inevitability-- we are a long way from that (but I think we will get there; solar cells and wind have done on cost what I didn't think possible in the time frame in which they did it, and EVs could as well).

The reality is the cheapest solution for most, unless you do heavy rush hour commuting, is a used car, ICE. The reasons to go EV are not about cost effectiveness compared to that alternative, for most people. Compared to a new ICE car? May well be so.
I think having a full "tank" (charged battery) every morning, little to no maintenance and never visiting a gas station again are great advantages.
The words we are questing for are "Disruptive Innovation" ;-). As per Clayton Christensen (wikipedia is good on this topic as an introduction "The Innovator's Dilemma"). An EV does some things better than an ICE car and is markedly inferior in other ways. Once EVs are comparably priced to ICE cars, then they are in a position to take off in the same way that PCs disrupted minicomputers and mainframes.
For the disadvantages, clearly there are plug-in hybrids like you point out or one can have a second vehicle that is gas powered (our household - one plug in hybrid and one gas powered vehicle but we'll eventually be one plug in hybrid and one full electric) . I think renting is also a great option. My wife was just talking about how her friend wants her to drive over to their state to visit and I'm telling her it probably is better to just fly and rent a car when you get there -> who really wants to sit in a car for a 7hr drive (2hrs of that drive sitting in LA traffic) and put unnecessary wear and tear on the vehicle.
Although that doesn't do the planet much good ;-). Flying, I mean. If we all use our savings on EVs to go on more long haul holidays... Apollo, this is Houston, we have a problem ;-). (This is more of a problem in the UK, perhaps, than anywhere else. As an island with a notoriously wet climate, we like to go abroad, and we tend to fly-- Brits are the world's great travellers (by plane); when I read Raymond Chandler though, that people used to just hop on a train in NYC to head to LA, well, I think we've lost something***).

I think the rental/ Zipcar market has probably reached the point where this is feasible, mostly. Even in America, for some households, to only have 1 car and to make that an EV?
To the OP -> sorry, I don't have any recommendations on books. Maybe find some blog posts and print the posts to paper? I have heard that a kindle is less straining on the eyes -> maybe print blog posts to PDF and read on a kindle? Perhaps you can adjust your lighting situation at home for making reading the computer screen easier on the eyes. I've read that setting the screen brightness to basically match the ambient brightness in the room can help reduce eye strain.
We are agreed -- there are ways around the internet reading problem.

*** because of air resistance, High Speed trains are not that energy efficient. Let's assume for a minute that Musk's Hyperloop is vapour ware. Then it's the electrification of train travel that produces the gains (if you get the electricity from the right sources), not the train travel itself.
Pdxnative
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Pdxnative »

This is the closest thing to Bogleheads for leafs:
http://mynissanleaf.com/
aristotelian
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by aristotelian »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:32 am The words we are questing for are "Disruptive Innovation" ;-). As per Clayton Christensen (wikipedia is good on this topic as an introduction "The Innovator's Dilemma"). An EV does some things better than an ICE car and is markedly inferior in other ways. Once EVs are comparably priced to ICE cars, then they are in a position to take off in the same way that PCs disrupted minicomputers and mainframes.
What do you mean "once"? A used LEAF is cheaper than the equivalent Civic. A new LEAF has a large sticker price, but that is because the tax credit is baked into it.
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Tabulator
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Tabulator »

I am assuming "ICE" means "internal combustion engine". Correct?

For many thoughtful replies here, thank you.

My most urgent question is figuring out whether my house is properly wired for EV car charging. How does one go about answering this? Is everyone supposed to call their local Nissan dealer for an in-home inspection?
Pdxnative
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Pdxnative »

Tabulator wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:31 pm I am assuming "ICE" means "internal combustion engine". Correct?

For many thoughtful replies here, thank you.

My most urgent question is figuring out whether my house is properly wired for EV car charging. How does one go about answering this? Is everyone supposed to call their local Nissan dealer for an in-home inspection?
Level one charging is from a regular outlet using the cord that comes with the leaf. If you drive less than 40 miles in a typical day, that’s probably all you need.

Level two charging is an outlet like your dryer plugs into, as well as a level two charger which you’d need to purchase. You’d need an electrician to install the outlet unless you have one in the garage. Level two charges faster and is for those who push the daily range further and don’t leave the car plugged in long enough to regain its charge.

Level three charging is an option on leafs, ‘charge package’. Not all have it. It allows you a faster charge at commercial charger. Many cities have parking spots with these, as do Nissan dealers and some stores such as Kohl’s. If you have access to a level three charger at work then you’d really have no need for a level two at home unless your one way commute is more than 40 miles.

If you are serious about a leaf you really will want to look at mynissanleaf.com user group. There’s a wealth of knowledge there.

Also: with the new model coming out, there are some crazy cheap lease deals on 2017 models.
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Valuethinker »

aristotelian wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:03 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:32 am The words we are questing for are "Disruptive Innovation" ;-). As per Clayton Christensen (wikipedia is good on this topic as an introduction "The Innovator's Dilemma"). An EV does some things better than an ICE car and is markedly inferior in other ways. Once EVs are comparably priced to ICE cars, then they are in a position to take off in the same way that PCs disrupted minicomputers and mainframes.
What do you mean "once"? A used LEAF is cheaper than the equivalent Civic. A new LEAF has a large sticker price, but that is because the tax credit is baked into it.
Hi

In the UK retail prices for EVs are still above the comparable ICE cars. Gap is narrowing, though.

The classic Disruptive innovation is very much cheaper than its alternatives (PC v. Mini or Mainframe, for example). The industry incumbents remain focused on providing a relatively high cost/ high quality product for their customers, and so find it impossible to move to address this emergent customer segment.
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Tabulator
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Tabulator »

Again, thanks for the information.
Pdxnative wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 pmAlso: with the new model coming out, there are some crazy cheap lease deals on 2017 models.
What offers did you see?

The offer I found is 229 per month for 36 months plus 2,000 due at signing. That will add up to over ten thousand US dollars. Is that really a good deal? I thought you could buy a used Leaf outright for that price.
Valuethinker
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Valuethinker »

Tabulator wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 am Again, thanks for the information.
Pdxnative wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 pmAlso: with the new model coming out, there are some crazy cheap lease deals on 2017 models.
What offers did you see?

The offer I found is 229 per month for 36 months plus 2,000 due at signing. That will add up to over ten thousand US dollars. Is that really a good deal? I thought you could buy a used Leaf outright for that price.
(ICE is Internal Combustion Engine)

I am still not remotely convinced EVs are "there" yet (or here, if you will). Some questions:


One reason to lease is rapid technological obsolescence. EVs in 3 years time will be significantly different from now.

However if second hand values are falling that quickly, that does open the alternative strategy of buying a 1-3 year old one, which is your preferred option?

What attracts you about the EV? Low running costs? Green-environmental (true if your electricity is sourced green at least)? Technology of the future?

You don't sound particularly "tech" to me and I would caution you about being an early adopter of a new technology. I believe EVs are the future, but the future is not here yet.
Pdxnative
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Pdxnative »

Tabulator wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:22 am Again, thanks for the information.
Pdxnative wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 pmAlso: with the new model coming out, there are some crazy cheap lease deals on 2017 models.
What offers did you see?

The offer I found is 229 per month for 36 months plus 2,000 due at signing. That will add up to over ten thousand US dollars. Is that really a good deal? I thought you could buy a used Leaf outright for that price.
In the last few months I’ve seen as low as $149/month for 24 months advertised. Perhaps that was an outlier, not sure. I’m not a fan of leases in general, but with evs it could make sense for some.
Pdxnative
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Pdxnative »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 am
You don't sound particularly "tech" to me and I would caution you about being an early adopter of a new technology. I believe EVs are the future, but the future is not here yet.
I would push back a bit on this. There’s nothing complicated about these cars. Just the opposite, in fact. If you can plug in a toaster, you know all the technology you need to own a leaf.
DavidRoseMountain
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by DavidRoseMountain »

Pdxnative wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:41 am This is the closest thing to Bogleheads for leafs:
http://mynissanleaf.com/
Wow this turned out to be a helpful website regarding the Leaf and the potential battery degradation problems.
DawgFan2001
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by DawgFan2001 »

I don't have any book recommendations, but would recommend you start to look around the places where you regularly drive for charging stations. I am an Leaf owner for the past 2 years (we bought when the Federal Tax Credit was $7,500 and the State tax credit was $5,000). Buying the Leaf allowed us to park DH's 1999 Ford Explorer in the garage 98% of the time (there appears to be an emotional attachment) in favor of him driving our Prius. That gas savings alone was huge on his 40 mile one way commute. So, we have gas guzzler, hybrid and electric.

I use the Leaf as a commuter car and take DD to lessons car. It certainly is not a car to have for your only car. My old job had free charging stations, so for about a year I had no "gas" cost. We did end up installing a Level 2 charger at home, but luckily DH's company makes them, so we got one at cost plus a tax credit for the install. I am in metro Atlanta, and there are a number of places, particularly in the city with free charging. You should get on Chargepoint and other charging company websites to see locations in your area to determine where you can charge, and where you can charge for free.

With the increase in battery range, I would echo the suggestions of potentially renting for a period to see if EV works for you. You do need to be cognizant of your range and where you are going that day. I've pulled into some charging stations on "fumes", but it is something you get used to and adjust your behaviors accordingly. I will say, if you are in a colder location, study it more, as efficiency/range is noticeable declined below 40 degrees.

I am your stereotypical woman when it comes to cars (i.e. I just want it to turn on and run), so the amount of technical knowledge you need to operate and charge an EV is minimal.
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Slacker »

Pdxnative wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:38 am
Valuethinker wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 am
You don't sound particularly "tech" to me and I would caution you about being an early adopter of a new technology. I believe EVs are the future, but the future is not here yet.
I would push back a bit on this. There’s nothing complicated about these cars. Just the opposite, in fact. If you can plug in a toaster, you know all the technology you need to own a leaf.
Agree, you are only an early adopter of the "packaging" as much of the technology involved, that is different from a standard gasoline powered vehicle, is well known and old - batteries being one exception, but an exception with an 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty for 70% of capacity among most manufacturers.
I'd be more worried about the massively complex emissions systems on gasoline powered vehicles with their preponderance for numerous vacuum tubes snaking across the vehicle like a pile of spaghetti. Thousands of moving parts in a modern DOHC V-6 under great pressure, high accelerations, rapid changes in direction, constant reciprocating of hard surfaces in near contact over tens of millions of repetitions in a 10 year ownership period.
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Tabulator
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Tabulator »

What happens when the battery no longer performs like it did when it was new? My understanding is that the range will decline. Will it still cost the same money to travel less distance?

I am going to make up some fictional units of measure. Let's say energy or power is measured in "moon sparks" (not joules or watts) and distance in "linear paces" (not meters or miles). The reason why I am doing this is to avoid getting bogged down in specific numbers and units. It is the overall idea that matters, not the precise quantities.

Assume that a new, properly functioning Nissan Leaf requires 100 moon sparks for a full charge. The cost for a homeowner to charge the full 100 moon sparks from an empty battery is 5 coins. That is because the utility company sets the price to 20 moon spark per coin and the price never changes. Furthermore, the full charge of 100 moon sparks (costing 5 coins) will enable a new Leaf to travel a range of 100 linear paces.

Imagine that a Leaf was used heavily over the course of years such that its range is now only 20 linear paces -- a decline of 80 per cent. Will it still require 100 moon sparks for a full charge (despite dramatically reduced range), and thus still cost 5 coins?

Basically, I am just trying to figure out whether or not each unit of distance becomes more expensive, due to battery reasons alone, as the car gets older.
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by telemark »

Tabulator wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:29 pm Basically, I am just trying to figure out whether or not each unit of distance becomes more expensive, due to battery reasons alone, as the car gets older.
The words you're looking for are capacity and efficiency. Capacity is how much energy a battery can hold, and efficiency reflects how much is lost along the way, the difference between what goes in and what comes out again.* Obviously battery capacity declines over time. I suspect efficiency does also, but not necessarily by the same amount. It would depend on the details of the chemistry, but generally speaking there are physical changes taking place inside the battery that interfere with its intended operation.

* Ever notice how batteries get warm sitting in the charger? That's energy being lost.

P.S. http://batteryuniversity.com/ looks like a good introduction to a complicated subject.
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by chessknt »

Pdxnative wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:38 am
Valuethinker wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 am
You don't sound particularly "tech" to me and I would caution you about being an early adopter of a new technology. I believe EVs are the future, but the future is not here yet.
I would push back a bit on this. There’s nothing complicated about these cars. Just the opposite, in fact. If you can plug in a toaster, you know all the technology you need to own a leaf.
Strongly disagree. Leafs (unlike volts) have no active battery longevity precautions and battery degradation is a very real problem in them. He could easily buy a used leaf with its range truncated from poor battery management by the prior owner, not know what to do to preserve battery life, and not know how to interpret the cars warning signs that the battery is damaged. A regular mechanic won't be of any help then you have a Nissan dealership as his only source of help. Compared to a used civic and the ability to detect and treat problems with the car is much easier and you don't worry that you car will rapidly run out of gas of you turn on the ac or heater like you could in a leaf with a half charged battery with two dead cells.
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Re: Going electric: Books about the Nissan Leaf (first generation; 2011–2017)

Post by Pdxnative »

chessknt wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:49 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:38 am
Valuethinker wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 am
You don't sound particularly "tech" to me and I would caution you about being an early adopter of a new technology. I believe EVs are the future, but the future is not here yet.
I would push back a bit on this. There’s nothing complicated about these cars. Just the opposite, in fact. If you can plug in a toaster, you know all the technology you need to own a leaf.
Strongly disagree. Leafs (unlike volts) have no active battery longevity precautions and battery degradation is a very real problem in them. He could easily buy a used leaf with its range truncated from poor battery management by the prior owner, not know what to do to preserve battery life, and not know how to interpret the cars warning signs that the battery is damaged. A regular mechanic won't be of any help then you have a Nissan dealership as his only source of help. Compared to a used civic and the ability to detect and treat problems with the car is much easier and you don't worry that you car will rapidly run out of gas of you turn on the ac or heater like you could in a bolt with a half charged battery with two dead cells.
Well, we'll have to agree to strongly disagree then. Ten minutes on the website I linked to above will provide enough information for an educated purchase decision. Specifically, staying away from early model years before changes to the battery design. As with any car, a pre purchase inspection is advisable. This can be a Nissan dealer or independent Nissan mechanic who can assess the battery. But to say that buying and owning a leaf requires some level of technical sophistication greater than a civic is just not accurate. Yes, batteries degrade over time. So do many elements of a civic, and I don't recall any 'active fuel pump longevity' precautions or warning lights in the last civic I owned. The leaf has a pretty clear battery life display and the idea that you're going to turn on the AC and suddenly lose power with no warning is ridiculous. Have you driven one of these cars?
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