Why NOT make more money?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
lostdog
Posts: 5367
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:15 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by lostdog »

flamesabers wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 pm
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pmSo why NOT make more money?

The potential problem for me is: Why not make more money to fly in business class, to slow travel overseas in good hotels 6 months every year, to eat lobsters every week, and to buy a luxury car every three years?
My answer would be money isn't everything and not everybody is interested with living an extravagant lifestyle. Some personal anecdotes:
  • When I was on active duty in the army, just being home on leave and spending time with my family felt like a vacation to me. It's hard for me to relate to people who feel they must go to a tropical place like Hawaii or overseas to be able to relax.
  • The time on active duty that I earned the most money was when I was deployed in Iraq (I was getting hazard duty pay plus my base pay was exempt from income taxes). However, due to the work environment and the long hours I was on duty, I didn't have the time or opportunity to enjoy the extra money I was making. When I got back to the states, I didn't feel like buying a brand new vehicle or going on a major shopping spree. Having financial security is a lot more important to me then driving the newest vehicle or having the latest gadgets.
If I was presented the choice of working the weekends to buy a luxury vehicle or having the weekends to myself, I would choose the latter every time. The same goes for eating lobsters, flying first-class or staying abroad in 5-star hotels.
+1

Well said and thank you for your service.
Stocks-80% || Bonds-20% || Taxable-VTI/VXUS || IRA-VT/BNDW
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

Watty wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:21 am
market timer wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:34 am
PhysicianOnFIRE wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:33 pmAlso, I'm now able to disappear for weeks at a time. My family is embarking on a three-week Spanish immersion adventure starting this Sunday. I wouldn't be able to do so if I were focused on making more money.
This is the main freedom I miss by having a job. In my ideal world, I'd have summers off to travel with the kids, at least for 6 weeks, and another 4 weeks throughout the year. Hardly any jobs offer this. Maybe after I save another million, I'll request an amendment to my contract for 10 weeks of vacation. Worth a shot.
I know two people that were laid off from IT jobs in their 50's that got jobs as school bus drivers and pretty much had that schedule. It did not pay a lot but it came with benefits and it worked for them as a bridge job to full retirement. That probably isn't something they would have planned but they REALLY enjoyed having as much time off as they did.

One thing to watch out for is that extended travel is not for everyone. I find that when I have been traveling for about three weeks I am getting to the point where I am ready to go home. I retired a few years ago and we seem to be taking one big trip a year then a couple of weeks and long weekends in the US. I don't mean to sound like I am bragging this year will we will have been traveling about 40 nights and I would not want to travel more than that, but that is just us.
I think your experience with travel is more the norm and the desire to be home only increases with age from what I have observed, particularly with men. They just seem to want to hole up in their man cave. But maybe as society has changed we will see that ladies want to hole up in their she sheds in the future. Personally, I think older woman are just a bit more adventurous than their male counterparts.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

J295 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:26 am For some of us, questions like these are answered by discernment, not analysis.
:confused
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
sschullo
Posts: 2840
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Long Beach, CA
Contact:

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by sschullo »

open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Had an identical experience with a coworker who not only died on the job, but could not retire even after five years of his friends encouraging him to retire. The year he finally DECIDED to retire HE CHANGED HIS MIND AGAIN!!!! and continued working, and died 7 months later. He had enough money with a 403b and teachers pension. He was 67 years old!

I am having a lot of fun in retirement with sharing a room with a friend on my Vietnam trip next year, driving my four-year-old luxury car which I plan on keeping it for the a long time and I am perfectly happy eating healthy foods every day. Volunteering for causes that I value is what makes me happy in retirement, not new things or first class hotels on every trip.
Never in the history of market day-traders’ has the obsession with so much massive, sophisticated, & powerful statistical machinery used by the brightest people on earth with such useless results.
tibbitts
Posts: 23702
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by tibbitts »

flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule).
Your premise is wrong. Almost nobody thinks 4% is FI in the current era. You have your 2% people, you have your 3%, and then a bunch in between. The remaining 4% people would change their mind if their investments dropped 40% the day after they retired, despite that being contrary to the premise of SWR.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Personally I would be 100% fine with that outcome for 3 reasons.
1) Enjoy my co-workers even when my job sucks
2) I have a life even though I work a full-time job
3) I don't believe once I die I will be consumed with regrets over the lack of a retirement for all eternity

So for me dying on the job isn't a big deal or even really a negative, I will be dead. But as I have said before what I would regret is suffering some sort of debilitation that would prevent from doing the things I enjoy in life and living that way for many years. Under that circumstance I might regret having not retired earlier, unless of course my care is very expensive, then I might regret retiring earlier if I couldn't afford to be properly taken care of. I have had parents and in-laws in assisted living and in those facility I have observed people in their 30s and 40s that have been either disabled through accident or progressive disease. They are going to living in these facilities for decades. While I am sure they have many, many things they wanted to do with their lives before they drew the very short straw, they also must be grateful for however their stays are being funded.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
TheNightsToCome
Posts: 955
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:48 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:10 am
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule).
Your premise is wrong. Almost nobody thinks 4% is FI in the current era. You have your 2% people, you have your 3%, and then a bunch in between. The remaining 4% people would change their mind if their investments dropped 40% the day after they retired, despite that being contrary to the premise of SWR.
While I model using a 3.3% rate as my benchmark, I actually run my model with 3%, 3.3%, 3.5% and 4%, and in my heart of hearts I actually probably expect something higher more like 4.5% over my retirement (which ticks me off because I am going to leave a lot of money behind if that is true). Personally, I find that like the Great Depression effected many of our parents and grandparents thinking for their entire lives, many BH show that same effect from the Great Recession and look at the returns only from the recent Bull market and conclude all the gains are being pulled forward. But I think if you expand your time horizon the gains start to look much more the norm and it is at least worth discussion whether the gains in the recent bull market are either catching up from under performance in the beginning of the century or part of a new industrial revolution instead of merely tomorrow's gains being pulled forward. Like everyone else I know nothing but I think those possibilities are worthy of consideration.

FWIW, one of the calculations in my model is the value of my current portfolio if equities were to drop 40%.
Last edited by TheTimeLord on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
I would think, depending on your specialty, that returning to comparable compensation or work environment might be difficult. Personally, I don't worry about being employable, I worry about what the difference in my compensation and work environment would be if I left and tried to come back.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
Yooper16
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:44 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by Yooper16 »

Crow Hunter wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:55 pm Real life example:

My Father worked for 30+ years for the "telephone company". He retired in August of the year he turned 60 with more than enough money to do what he wanted to do.

There was no family history of serious health problems in the family (his brothers and sisters are either still alive or died in their mid 80's). He was in excellent shape, ate right, exercised every day, never smoked, never drank, never did any drugs, had a wonderful marriage and children that had left the nest and was looking forward to a long retirement enjoying the fruits of his labor.

Around Christmas of that year, he had what he thought was a gall bladder pain. In January he went in to have it evaluated, and was diagnosed with colon cancer that had metastasized to his liver.

He passed away 2 years later after a very hard but ultimately unsuccessful fight, having only had the opportunity to make one trip with my Mom to one of the many places that they had on their bucket list prior to his diagnosis.

10 years later at age 68, my Mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer in February and passed away in May having never smoked a cigarette in her life and no other member of the family ever having cancer.

No matter how much money you have, you will never be able to buy more time.
When I read your post it was like reading the last part of my parents life. Father 40+ years with the telephone company. Retired(1988) and 1 year or so later had a massive stroke. Life was not the same again for them, as he suffered from paralysis, stroke related dementia, became insulin dependent, declined dramatically and his personality changed--for the worse. He lived until 2011. Most of their decent level of saving, upper 6 figures, went to his LTC beginning in 2001

About 2 years later(1990), dear old mother was diagnosed with renal cancer. She spent her 65th birthday in the hospital prepping for the removal of a kidney, spleen and other misc. tissue. She lived for 7 more years until cancer had metastisized to remaining kidney, lungs and bone.

The most wonderful gift she gave me was a conversation we had. In it she stated that--- she would have given up all the trips/collectable/possessions for dear old dad to not have had his stroke and that she would have been very happy to have spent their retirement years sitting on the front porch, holding hands watching the world go by.
cherijoh
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by cherijoh »

flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:19 pm
Crow Hunter wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:55 pm Real life example:

My Father worked for 30+ years for the "telephone company". He retired in August of the year he turned 60 with more than enough money to do what he wanted to do.

There was no family history of serious health problems in the family (his brothers and sisters are either still alive or died in their mid 80's). He was in excellent shape, ate right, exercised every day, never smoked, never drank, never did any drugs, had a wonderful marriage and children that had left the nest and was looking forward to a long retirement enjoying the fruits of his labor.

Around Christmas of that year, he had what he thought was a gall bladder pain. In January he went in to have it evaluated, and was diagnosed with colon cancer that had metastasized to his liver.

He passed away 2 years later after a very hard but ultimately unsuccessful fight, having only had the opportunity to make one trip with my Mom to one of the many places that they had on their bucket list prior to his diagnosis.

10 years later at age 68, my Mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer in February and passed away in May having never smoked a cigarette in her life and no other member of the family ever having cancer.

No matter how much money you have, you will never be able to buy more time.
I am very sorry for your losses. Yes, I am in a difficult situation as I mentioned in my OP. On one hand, I am thinking to retire fully and enjoy my life (which I don't know much yet, except a lot of travel). On the other hand, my portfolio is still not that solid and my wife does not want to downsize either our house or our life style. My job is not hard (university), but I do not enjoy it anymore. I have been thinking about retiring or not retiring almost every night.
Since you mentioned working at a university - is there any possibility of a sabbatical? That might recharge your batteries.
TheNightsToCome
Posts: 955
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:48 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:32 am
TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
I would think, depending on your specialty, that returning to comparable compensation or work environment might be difficult. Personally, I don't worry about being employable, I worry about what the difference in my compensation and work environment would be if I left and tried to come back.
My situation is improved, but I am not a surgeon. I know of another physician in a non-surgical specialty who was also successful. The process would probably be more difficult for a surgeon.
Crow Hunter
Posts: 1054
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by Crow Hunter »

Yooper16 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:33 am
Crow Hunter wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:55 pm Real life example:

My Father worked for 30+ years for the "telephone company". He retired in August of the year he turned 60 with more than enough money to do what he wanted to do.

There was no family history of serious health problems in the family (his brothers and sisters are either still alive or died in their mid 80's). He was in excellent shape, ate right, exercised every day, never smoked, never drank, never did any drugs, had a wonderful marriage and children that had left the nest and was looking forward to a long retirement enjoying the fruits of his labor.

Around Christmas of that year, he had what he thought was a gall bladder pain. In January he went in to have it evaluated, and was diagnosed with colon cancer that had metastasized to his liver.

He passed away 2 years later after a very hard but ultimately unsuccessful fight, having only had the opportunity to make one trip with my Mom to one of the many places that they had on their bucket list prior to his diagnosis.

10 years later at age 68, my Mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer in February and passed away in May having never smoked a cigarette in her life and no other member of the family ever having cancer.

No matter how much money you have, you will never be able to buy more time.
When I read your post it was like reading the last part of my parents life. Father 40+ years with the telephone company. Retired(1988) and 1 year or so later had a massive stroke. Life was not the same again for them, as he suffered from paralysis, stroke related dementia, became insulin dependent, declined dramatically and his personality changed--for the worse. He lived until 2011. Most of their decent level of saving, upper 6 figures, went to his LTC beginning in 2001

About 2 years later(1990), dear old mother was diagnosed with renal cancer. She spent her 65th birthday in the hospital prepping for the removal of a kidney, spleen and other misc. tissue. She lived for 7 more years until cancer had metastisized to remaining kidney, lungs and bone.

The most wonderful gift she gave me was a conversation we had. In it she stated that--- she would have given up all the trips/collectable/possessions for dear old dad to not have had his stroke and that she would have been very happy to have spent their retirement years sitting on the front porch, holding hands watching the world go by.
I had a very similar conversation with my Mom.

I am sorry that others have had similar experiences. It is not something I would wish on anyone.

That conversation is something that my wife and I try to keep in mind and we take as much time we can to spend with people we care about. We don't have a lot of vacations and experiences as a couple to remember but we do have lots of memories with my Mom and her Dad before they passed away. Her sister was always focused on her own life and now greatly regrets not spending more time with their Father. I heard her say multiple times when he got sick that she "thought there would be more time".
User avatar
snackdog
Posts: 3099
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:57 am
Location: PNW

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by snackdog »

We live in a beach paradise wuth a company paid apt, utilities and vehicle plus stipends. 30 paid vacation days plus many host country holidays plus ability to combine business travel with personal. What’s not to like? Retirement could be much less luxurious simply because we are frugal. Boss can be demanding but I’m thick skinned. American economy seems overheated so no rush to retire and return to high living costs. As others have said, live the life you want every day. Don’t wait.
BH Consumer FAQ: | Car? Used Toyota, Lexus or Miata. | House? 20% down and 3x salary. | Vacation house? No. | Umbrella? $1 million. | Goods? Costco.
open_circuit
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by open_circuit »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:13 am
open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Personally I would be 100% fine with that outcome for 3 reasons.
1) Enjoy my co-workers even when my job sucks
2) I have a life even though I work a full-time job
3) I don't believe once I die I will be consumed with regrets over the lack of a retirement for all eternity
No argument That's why I qualified it with "if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work". I completely understand some people are able to balance and enjoy life will working indefinitely. I sincerely congratulate you if this is your situation. I enjoy my challenging, interesting job, but I do not want to do it forever.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

open_circuit wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:10 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:13 am
open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Personally I would be 100% fine with that outcome for 3 reasons.
1) Enjoy my co-workers even when my job sucks
2) I have a life even though I work a full-time job
3) I don't believe once I die I will be consumed with regrets over the lack of a retirement for all eternity
No argument That's why I qualified it with "if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work". I completely understand some people are able to balance and enjoy life will working indefinitely. I sincerely congratulate you if this is your situation. I enjoy my challenging, interesting job, but I do not want to do it forever.
I will be transitioning to retirement sooner than later, just saying to me dying at work or before retirement is not a motivation to retire because of the 3 reasons I listed.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

Sandtrap wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:27 pm 1
If someone is doing what they love and earning money as a byproduct, then the motivation and gratification goes beyond "making more money".
2
Money or assets "buys" options in life. Less money = less options at any given moment, in some respects.
3
Whether before or after retirement, Bogleheads are very very interested in making more money, or at least preserving capital. . . which means maximizing returns to offset inflation, market losses, etc. . . which means. . making money.
4
In some respects, even though one is not "working" / employed after retirement. . or after "making one's number". . . being a careful steward of one's investment portfolio is still. . . working.. . . and making more money.
Many bogleheads are high earners, i.e., lawyers, doctors, IT engineers, professors, etc. Many of these professions need many years of training, some of them come out with loads of student debts. When they started making money, they already passed the ages that many MMM prefer to retire. (I finished my Ph.D. at 34 with a few thousand dollars of medical debts). It is not a surprise that they are not retiring at 40 or 50, and want to make more money, because the opportunity was so hard to get.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

flyingaway wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 am
Sandtrap wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:27 pm 1
If someone is doing what they love and earning money as a byproduct, then the motivation and gratification goes beyond "making more money".
2
Money or assets "buys" options in life. Less money = less options at any given moment, in some respects.
3
Whether before or after retirement, Bogleheads are very very interested in making more money, or at least preserving capital. . . which means maximizing returns to offset inflation, market losses, etc. . . which means. . making money.
4
In some respects, even though one is not "working" / employed after retirement. . or after "making one's number". . . being a careful steward of one's investment portfolio is still. . . working.. . . and making more money.
Many bogleheads are high earners, i.e., lawyers, doctors, IT engineers, professors, etc. Many of these professions need many years of training, some of them come out with loads of student debts. When they started making money, they already passed the ages that many MMM prefer to retire. (I finished my Ph.D. at 34 with a few thousand dollars of medical debts). It is not a surprise that they are not retiring at 40 or 50, and want to make more money, because the opportunity was so hard to get.
Can anyone explain to me why MMM is considered retired but Paul Merriman isn't? Seems to me he has a very lucrative job that his followers have virtually zero chance of emulating. Is it just that his job is so non-traditional?
Last edited by TheTimeLord on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

Watty wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:21 am
I know two people that were laid off from IT jobs in their 50's that got jobs as school bus drivers and pretty much had that schedule. It did not pay a lot but it came with benefits and it worked for them as a bridge job to full retirement. That probably isn't something they would have planned but they REALLY enjoyed having as much time off as they did.
This is the approach that I will definitely NOT take. Working leisurely with a lower paying part-time jobs essentially prolongs the working years.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:17 am I will be transitioning to retirement sooner than later, just saying to me dying at work or before retirement is not a motivation to retire because of the 3 reasons I listed.
I am going to watch you carefully as you are the poster boy for OMYs on this forum.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

open_circuit wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:10 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:13 am
open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Personally I would be 100% fine with that outcome for 3 reasons.
1) Enjoy my co-workers even when my job sucks
2) I have a life even though I work a full-time job
3) I don't believe once I die I will be consumed with regrets over the lack of a retirement for all eternity
No argument That's why I qualified it with "if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work". I completely understand some people are able to balance and enjoy life will working indefinitely. I sincerely congratulate you if this is your situation. I enjoy my challenging, interesting job, but I do not want to do it forever.
I don't want to work forever. In fact, among my friends and colleagues (academics), retiring before 70 without a medical reason is rare. I just want to have some safety margins to be mostly sure that we will have a life style that we want for our retirement. If the job becomes demanding, I will quit immediately. Right now, it is not fun, starts looking like boring, but not killing me yet.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

snackdog wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:01 am We live in a beach paradise wuth a company paid apt, utilities and vehicle plus stipends. 30 paid vacation days plus many host country holidays plus ability to combine business travel with personal. What’s not to like? Retirement could be much less luxurious simply because we are frugal. Boss can be demanding but I’m thick skinned. American economy seems overheated so no rush to retire and return to high living costs. As others have said, live the life you want every day. Don’t wait.
May I assume that you are still relatively young?
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

cherijoh wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:34 am Since you mentioned working at a university - is there any possibility of a sabbatical? That might recharge your batteries.
Yes, I will have one soon. It is very difficult to get these days. I guess it might be very difficult for me to come back to work after a sabbatical leave. But I am required to come back for one year, after that, it would be the earliest possible date for full retirement in my plan. Lots of uncertainties, but none of them is critical to ruin my eventual plan for retirement.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm There is a thread about "why make more money"? So this one is to discuss about the other side of the story. For myself, I am actually in the middle and in a difficult situation to go either way.

Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule). But my financial independence has no margin of error, i.e., no specific money budgeted for kids' wedding in the future, for slow overseas travels, etc. (only $10K is budgeted for travel), and extra cushion for sequence of return risks, etc.

So why NOT make more money?

The potential problem for me is: Why not make more money to fly in business class, to slow travel overseas in good hotels 6 months every year, to eat lobsters every week, and to buy a luxury car every three years?
I think I have the actually answer to this question. Those who think why not make more money more clearly see the possibilities provided to them by the additional money. Those who think why make more money more clearly see the possibilities provided to them by the additional time.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

Crow Hunter wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:53 am
Yooper16 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:33 am
Crow Hunter wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:55 pm Real life example:

My Father worked for 30+ years for the "telephone company". He retired in August of the year he turned 60 with more than enough money to do what he wanted to do.

There was no family history of serious health problems in the family (his brothers and sisters are either still alive or died in their mid 80's). He was in excellent shape, ate right, exercised every day, never smoked, never drank, never did any drugs, had a wonderful marriage and children that had left the nest and was looking forward to a long retirement enjoying the fruits of his labor.

Around Christmas of that year, he had what he thought was a gall bladder pain. In January he went in to have it evaluated, and was diagnosed with colon cancer that had metastasized to his liver.

He passed away 2 years later after a very hard but ultimately unsuccessful fight, having only had the opportunity to make one trip with my Mom to one of the many places that they had on their bucket list prior to his diagnosis.

10 years later at age 68, my Mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer in February and passed away in May having never smoked a cigarette in her life and no other member of the family ever having cancer.

No matter how much money you have, you will never be able to buy more time.
When I read your post it was like reading the last part of my parents life. Father 40+ years with the telephone company. Retired(1988) and 1 year or so later had a massive stroke. Life was not the same again for them, as he suffered from paralysis, stroke related dementia, became insulin dependent, declined dramatically and his personality changed--for the worse. He lived until 2011. Most of their decent level of saving, upper 6 figures, went to his LTC beginning in 2001

About 2 years later(1990), dear old mother was diagnosed with renal cancer. She spent her 65th birthday in the hospital prepping for the removal of a kidney, spleen and other misc. tissue. She lived for 7 more years until cancer had metastisized to remaining kidney, lungs and bone.

The most wonderful gift she gave me was a conversation we had. In it she stated that--- she would have given up all the trips/collectable/possessions for dear old dad to not have had his stroke and that she would have been very happy to have spent their retirement years sitting on the front porch, holding hands watching the world go by.
I had a very similar conversation with my Mom.

I am sorry that others have had similar experiences. It is not something I would wish on anyone.

That conversation is something that my wife and I try to keep in mind and we take as much time we can to spend with people we care about. We don't have a lot of vacations and experiences as a couple to remember but we do have lots of memories with my Mom and her Dad before they passed away. Her sister was always focused on her own life and now greatly regrets not spending more time with their Father. I heard her say multiple times when he got sick that she "thought there would be more time".
These stories reinforce the belief that one should do what they want to do (and value most) when they have time, being travels or being spending time with loved ones.
I am going to spend a considerable amount of time with my parents. Last year, I told my father that I will be celebrating his next (86th) birthday with him no matter what. This would be the first in at least 30 years if my memory is correct.
DrGoogle2017
Posts: 2528
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:31 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by DrGoogle2017 »

Honestly my work has not been exciting since I’ve made some money in the 90s, but I continued plodding along just in case. Only the last 3 years of my last job, has work became awful, full of petty people, plus a long commute was the reason I planned for retirement. I thought of retiring at 55 was early enough. But this has to be a decision you have to make.
Regarding some anecdotes about dying before retiring, I’m a firm believer that’s when your number is up, it’s up. Regardless of whether you are working or not.
Last edited by DrGoogle2017 on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
hightower
Posts: 863
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by hightower »

My answer to this question is simple. The only time I think you should avoid trying to make more money is if the pursuit of that money is making you unhappy or preventing you from doing the things you enjoy. If you can continue to make money and enjoy your life at the same time, then there's no reason you can't do that.
I think you're in a wonderful position in that you're FI and you still have the ability to earn if you'd like. I would simply make it fun and anything extra you make can be socked away for extra things like travel and weddings, etc.
Enjoy it! You've earned it!
hightower
Posts: 863
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by hightower »

Crow Hunter wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:55 pm Real life example:

My Father worked for 30+ years for the "telephone company". He retired in August of the year he turned 60 with more than enough money to do what he wanted to do.

There was no family history of serious health problems in the family (his brothers and sisters are either still alive or died in their mid 80's). He was in excellent shape, ate right, exercised every day, never smoked, never drank, never did any drugs, had a wonderful marriage and children that had left the nest and was looking forward to a long retirement enjoying the fruits of his labor.

Around Christmas of that year, he had what he thought was a gall bladder pain. In January he went in to have it evaluated, and was diagnosed with colon cancer that had metastasized to his liver.

He passed away 2 years later after a very hard but ultimately unsuccessful fight, having only had the opportunity to make one trip with my Mom to one of the many places that they had on their bucket list prior to his diagnosis.

10 years later at age 68, my Mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer in February and passed away in May having never smoked a cigarette in her life and no other member of the family ever having cancer.

No matter how much money you have, you will never be able to buy more time.
As a physician I see and hear stories like this all the time (it's part of what makes my line of work difficult), but the point is that you need to enjoy every day as if it's your last. You have to plan for the future and save, but it can't take away from living the life you have right now for precisely the reason you point out above. Life is short, enjoy it today:)
avalpert
Posts: 6313
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by avalpert »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:19 am
flyingaway wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 am
Sandtrap wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:27 pm 1
If someone is doing what they love and earning money as a byproduct, then the motivation and gratification goes beyond "making more money".
2
Money or assets "buys" options in life. Less money = less options at any given moment, in some respects.
3
Whether before or after retirement, Bogleheads are very very interested in making more money, or at least preserving capital. . . which means maximizing returns to offset inflation, market losses, etc. . . which means. . making money.
4
In some respects, even though one is not "working" / employed after retirement. . or after "making one's number". . . being a careful steward of one's investment portfolio is still. . . working.. . . and making more money.
Many bogleheads are high earners, i.e., lawyers, doctors, IT engineers, professors, etc. Many of these professions need many years of training, some of them come out with loads of student debts. When they started making money, they already passed the ages that many MMM prefer to retire. (I finished my Ph.D. at 34 with a few thousand dollars of medical debts). It is not a surprise that they are not retiring at 40 or 50, and want to make more money, because the opportunity was so hard to get.
Can anyone explain to me why MMM is considered retired but Paul Merriman isn't? Seems to me he has a very lucrative job that his followers have virtually zero chance of emulating. Is it just that his job is so non-traditional?
For one of them being considered retired is good for branding and for the other it is at best irrelevant.
EnjoyIt
Posts: 8271
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by EnjoyIt »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:10 am
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule).
Your premise is wrong. Almost nobody thinks 4% is FI in the current era. You have your 2% people, you have your 3%, and then a bunch in between. The remaining 4% people would change their mind if their investments dropped 40% the day after they retired, despite that being contrary to the premise of SWR.
I fully disagree with you. There is a whole forum of people who think 4% is just fine. Some even think 4.5% is fine as well. As for my investments dropping down 40% is unlikely because I don't keep 100% equities. I like 50/50 in retirement so my assets may drop 25-30%. Also, the 4% withdrawal rate takes those recessions into account. Me personally my math tells me 3.7% will do. That is because on top of my 4% I will keep 2 years in CDs. That comes out to 3.7% The plan is to spend down those CDs taking the 6 month interest penalty as needed during the next recession. Not because I think I will have to to survive the recession, but because it will decrease a significant amount of stress during that time.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
EnjoyIt
Posts: 8271
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by EnjoyIt »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
I probably am the same EnjoyIt from whatever other site you have seen me and yes I am a physician. I am also on a credentialing committee at a hospital. Extended time off is always a red flag and begins serious discussion. I have yet to see someone return after lets say 3 years off, but I would bet they would not get credentialed in my current system. The other worry I have is losing my skill. I would hate to return to work and make a mistake that creates harm.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
daveydoo
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:53 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by daveydoo »

hightower wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:01 pm The only time I think you should avoid trying to make more money is if the pursuit of that money is making you unhappy or preventing you from doing the things you enjoy.
I like this! (I wish it applied to the pre-FI state, too.)
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:08 pm

I probably am the same EnjoyIt from whatever other site you have seen me and yes I am a physician. I am also on a credentialing committee at a hospital. Extended time off is always a red flag and begins serious discussion. I have yet to see someone return after lets say 3 years off, but I would bet they would not get credentialed in my current system. The other worry I have is losing my skill. I would hate to return to work and make a mistake that creates harm.
Agree. For highly skilled workers, once retired, it is very difficult to return to the same position with similar salary. I might be able to find a teaching position to teach three times the number of courses and make half of the salary. That is six times of the difference. So why not make more money before retire, to make sure there is little chances of needing another job after retirement.
User avatar
White Coat Investor
Posts: 17400
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:11 pm
Location: Greatest Snow On Earth

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by White Coat Investor »

open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Retirement is the back up plan if you become physically unable to do work you love or if you cannot find work you love or if you start to hate the work you used to love. How wonderful would it be to love your work so much that you continue to work even at Bogle's age?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
User avatar
White Coat Investor
Posts: 17400
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:11 pm
Location: Greatest Snow On Earth

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by White Coat Investor »

EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:57 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:10 am
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule).
Your premise is wrong. Almost nobody thinks 4% is FI in the current era. You have your 2% people, you have your 3%, and then a bunch in between. The remaining 4% people would change their mind if their investments dropped 40% the day after they retired, despite that being contrary to the premise of SWR.
I fully disagree with you. There is a whole forum of people who think 4% is just fine. Some even think 4.5% is fine as well. As for my investments dropping down 40% is unlikely because I don't keep 100% equities. I like 50/50 in retirement so my assets may drop 25-30%. Also, the 4% withdrawal rate takes those recessions into account. Me personally my math tells me 3.7% will do. That is because on top of my 4% I will keep 2 years in CDs. That comes out to 3.7% The plan is to spend down those CDs taking the 6 month interest penalty as needed during the next recession. Not because I think I will have to to survive the recession, but because it will decrease a significant amount of stress during that time.
8% is fine a lot of the time. You just need the ability to recognize as you go along whether 8% is going to work in your case or if you're going to have to be more conservative.

Take a look at the Trinity study data closely. For 15 year periods of a 50/50 portfolio, 8% worked 71% of the time. Even for 30 years periods, it still worked 35% of the time if you could handle a 75/25 portfolio.

Adjust as you go. That's where the wisdom is. If you retire into a massive bull market, it's silly to only spend 4% if you would be happier spending more. If you retire into a massive bear market, you'd better be a little bit more careful.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:18 pm
open_circuit wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 pm Disclaimer, I'm not retired yet.

Retire when you can comfortably do so if you have other things you want to pursue that do not align with continuing to work.

To put things in perspective, here's an anecdote:
This week, a former coworker passed away. He tried to retire a couple years ago, but was convinced to stay on for a while longer at work. Ultimately, he never was able to enjoy a retirement due to one-more-year syndrome or peer pressure. I don't want that to be me. Would you like it to be you?
Retirement is the back up plan if you become physically unable to do work you love or if you cannot find work you love or if you start to hate the work you used to love. How wonderful would it be to love your work so much that you continue to work even at Bogle's age?
Or Charlie Munger's age.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
kenoryan
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by kenoryan »

EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:08 pm
TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
I probably am the same EnjoyIt from whatever other site you have seen me and yes I am a physician. I am also on a credentialing committee at a hospital. Extended time off is always a red flag and begins serious discussion. I have yet to see someone return after lets say 3 years off, but I would bet they would not get credentialed in my current system. The other worry I have is losing my skill. I would hate to return to work and make a mistake that creates harm.
I’m guessing it’s not just that. If you retire, I’m guessing you will also discontinue your malpractice insurance? And have to give up your office because of other overheads? Would you give up your state license? What if there are additional requirements like the current opioid seminar attendance to maintain licensure? And CME requirements. Recredentialing will require you to show the number of procedures that you have performed in the last so many months. You might be relegated to doing locums if you did decide that you wanted to rejoin the workforce. DEA license continuation will be a pain too, if you need one for your practice.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:21 pm Adjust as you go. That's where the wisdom is. If you retire into a massive bull market, it's silly to only spend 4% if you would be happier spending more. If you retire into a massive bear market, you'd better be a little bit more careful.
If you experience a massive bull market and increase your spending accordingly, you have to reduce your spending in a massive bear market. That is not the idea behind the 4% rule, which keeps inflation-adjusted constant spending level.

I don't think adjusting spending based on market performance is wrong, I just want to say that is not the fault of the original 4% rule.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:50 am I think I have the actually answer to this question. Those who think why not make more money more clearly see the possibilities provided to them by the additional money. Those who think why make more money more clearly see the possibilities provided to them by the additional time.
That is to say that each one of us just does what we want to do. In fact, no matter whatever we do, the majority of the people will be fine.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

flyingaway wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:55 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:50 am I think I have the actually answer to this question. Those who think why not make more money more clearly see the possibilities provided to them by the additional money. Those who think why make more money more clearly see the possibilities provided to them by the additional time.
That is to say that each one of us just does what we want to do. In fact, no matter whatever we do, the majority of the people will be fine.
We are shaped by our life experiences and the fears or desires that have been planted within us. I could be wrong but yes I think most BH will be just fine barring some seismic shift in how the investing world works.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
protagonist
Posts: 9276
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:47 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by protagonist »

flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm There is a thread about "why make more money"? So this one is to discuss about the other side of the story. For myself, I am actually in the middle and in a difficult situation to go either way.

Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule). But my financial independence has no margin of error, i.e., no specific money budgeted for kids' wedding in the future, for slow overseas travels, etc. (only $10K is budgeted for travel), and extra cushion for sequence of return risks, etc.

So why NOT make more money?

The potential problem for me is: Why not make more money to fly in business class, to slow travel overseas in good hotels 6 months every year, to eat lobsters every week, and to buy a luxury car every three years?

For one thing, you might have a heart attack tomorrow and die. (Don't laugh...I had one age 62 with no risk factors other than being male. I was lucky to survive. My story is way more common than you might think). If you do, boy, will you be sorry you wasted your life making money and never got to eat that lobster.

No matter what you do you take risk. If you don't make more money, your expenses might exceed your margin of error and you might run out. If you do make more money, you might work your fingers to the bone and die sitting on a big pile of cash that you never got to enjoy.

All the world is but a play. Be thou the joyful player.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

protagonist wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:39 am
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm There is a thread about "why make more money"? So this one is to discuss about the other side of the story. For myself, I am actually in the middle and in a difficult situation to go either way.

Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule). But my financial independence has no margin of error, i.e., no specific money budgeted for kids' wedding in the future, for slow overseas travels, etc. (only $10K is budgeted for travel), and extra cushion for sequence of return risks, etc.

So why NOT make more money?

The potential problem for me is: Why not make more money to fly in business class, to slow travel overseas in good hotels 6 months every year, to eat lobsters every week, and to buy a luxury car every three years?

For one thing, you might have a heart attack tomorrow and die. (Don't laugh...I had one age 62 with no risk factors other than being male. I was lucky to survive. My story is way more common than you might think). If you do, boy, will you be sorry you wasted your life making money and never got to eat that lobster.

No matter what you do you take risk. If you don't make more money, your expenses might exceed your margin of error and you might run out. If you do make more money, you might work your fingers to the bone and die sitting on a big pile of cash that you never got to enjoy.

All the world is but a play. Be thou the joyful player.
This example has come up many times. I was thinking about it exactly last night. What if I die very soon? I would die peacefully, knowing that my family would be taken care of without worrying about the money.
protagonist
Posts: 9276
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:47 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by protagonist »

flyingaway wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:45 am
protagonist wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:39 am
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm There is a thread about "why make more money"? So this one is to discuss about the other side of the story. For myself, I am actually in the middle and in a difficult situation to go either way.

Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule). But my financial independence has no margin of error, i.e., no specific money budgeted for kids' wedding in the future, for slow overseas travels, etc. (only $10K is budgeted for travel), and extra cushion for sequence of return risks, etc.

So why NOT make more money?

The potential problem for me is: Why not make more money to fly in business class, to slow travel overseas in good hotels 6 months every year, to eat lobsters every week, and to buy a luxury car every three years?

For one thing, you might have a heart attack tomorrow and die. (Don't laugh...I had one age 62 with no risk factors other than being male. I was lucky to survive. My story is way more common than you might think). If you do, boy, will you be sorry you wasted your life making money and never got to eat that lobster.

No matter what you do you take risk. If you don't make more money, your expenses might exceed your margin of error and you might run out. If you do make more money, you might work your fingers to the bone and die sitting on a big pile of cash that you never got to enjoy.

All the world is but a play. Be thou the joyful player.
This example has come up many times. I was thinking about it exactly last night. What if I die very soon? I would die peacefully, knowing that my family would be taken care of without worrying about the money.
So it's an individual decision.

But my thought is that if you already have enough to be financially independent , albeit with no margin of error, for your retirement, and you are still in your 50s, you already have plenty to leave your loved ones if you kick the bucket tomorrow.

Then again, if you love your work, go for it. Work as long as you can....why not? Just realize that you will not be traveling first class and staying in good hotels much if you only have 4 weeks vacation per year. If you quit maybe you can fly coach and stay in cheap hotels 3 months per year instead if you quit. You must prioritize.

(I am using the OP's criteria). Chacun a son gout.
User avatar
TheTimeLord
Posts: 12125
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheTimeLord »

flyingaway wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:45 am
protagonist wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:39 am
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 pm There is a thread about "why make more money"? So this one is to discuss about the other side of the story. For myself, I am actually in the middle and in a difficult situation to go either way.

Here is my situation (said before in other threads): We are in early 50s and have achieved financial independence at the comfortable level (4% rule). But my financial independence has no margin of error, i.e., no specific money budgeted for kids' wedding in the future, for slow overseas travels, etc. (only $10K is budgeted for travel), and extra cushion for sequence of return risks, etc.

So why NOT make more money?

The potential problem for me is: Why not make more money to fly in business class, to slow travel overseas in good hotels 6 months every year, to eat lobsters every week, and to buy a luxury car every three years?

For one thing, you might have a heart attack tomorrow and die. (Don't laugh...I had one age 62 with no risk factors other than being male. I was lucky to survive. My story is way more common than you might think). If you do, boy, will you be sorry you wasted your life making money and never got to eat that lobster.

No matter what you do you take risk. If you don't make more money, your expenses might exceed your margin of error and you might run out. If you do make more money, you might work your fingers to the bone and die sitting on a big pile of cash that you never got to enjoy.

All the world is but a play. Be thou the joyful player.
This example has come up many times. I was thinking about it exactly last night. What if I die very soon? I would die peacefully, knowing that my family would be taken care of without worrying about the money.
All these types of examples contain within them the subtle implication that life is not enjoyable if you have a full time job and that there is no ability to obtain a work life balance. I would ask you this question, are most of your savings coming from abundance or are you scrimping and cutting corners to create an ever bigger pile of money each month? If it is the former you likely have some form of work life balance and are able to enjoy life even with a full time job, if it is the latter then maybe you should save a little less and enjoy yourself a little more since you have enough already. I am 99% you fall into the former category not the latter.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
EnjoyIt
Posts: 8271
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by EnjoyIt »

kenoryan wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:52 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:08 pm
TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
I probably am the same EnjoyIt from whatever other site you have seen me and yes I am a physician. I am also on a credentialing committee at a hospital. Extended time off is always a red flag and begins serious discussion. I have yet to see someone return after lets say 3 years off, but I would bet they would not get credentialed in my current system. The other worry I have is losing my skill. I would hate to return to work and make a mistake that creates harm.
I’m guessing it’s not just that. If you retire, I’m guessing you will also discontinue your malpractice insurance? And have to give up your office because of other overheads? Would you give up your state license? What if there are additional requirements like the current opioid seminar attendance to maintain licensure? And CME requirements. Recredentialing will require you to show the number of procedures that you have performed in the last so many months. You might be relegated to doing locums if you did decide that you wanted to rejoin the workforce. DEA license continuation will be a pain too, if you need one for your practice.
Good points indeed. My field is hospital based so it is more of finding a location that needs my skills and get credentialed in that hospital. Board certification is usually necessary at most hospitals these days. But recertification is every 10 years so not too bad. Keeping a state license with DEA costs about $2000 every 2 years which does make me think if it is worth it or not to keep the license. I think maybe for the first 4-6 years it might be worth it just incase I need to pick up a few extra shifts during a prolonged recession/depression. Who knows. Thanks for making me think about that. You made me realize that I can cut 1000/yr from my expenses and my nest egg needs to be $25k less now :)
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
TheNightsToCome
Posts: 955
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:48 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

kenoryan wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:52 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:08 pm
TheNightsToCome wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:24 am
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm Although at some point I will stop and retire early, these are the reasons why I am still making more money:

1) We were foolish and bought slightly too much house. Now that we are used to living in this home it would be tough to downgrade and therefor we need to work just a bit more to be able to fund living in it in retirement. The only way we will downgrade is if we leave this City/State and make a life somewhere else.

2) We enjoy travel and experiences both of which usually cost money. We want to make sure we can continue those experiences without being worried about how to finance them.

3) Fear. I think fear of the unknown is likely the biggest reason why we continue to work.
a) Fear of healthcare costs
b) Fear of a prolonged recession and running out of money
c) Fear that our tastes will become more expensive
d) Fear of missing out on being able to add more funding in the next recession
e) Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later
f) Fear that this time it is different

As an above poster pointed out, each additional dollar earned provides less and less utility. At some point a fancier X or a larger Y adds very little extra value compared to the time lost working for it. At some point I will have to accept my fears and realize that earning another dollar is just not worth my time, and that time lost is not worth whatever item that dollar could buy.
"Fear of being bored in early retirement and then not being able to return back to work a few years later"

If you are the same EnjoyIt posting on other sites, then you are a physician. Many physicians assume that they won't have the option to return to work if they are away for a number of years. I can tell you that isn't the case.

Returning isn't easy, so I wouldn't recommend it as Plan A, but you can cross 3e off your list.
I probably am the same EnjoyIt from whatever other site you have seen me and yes I am a physician. I am also on a credentialing committee at a hospital. Extended time off is always a red flag and begins serious discussion. I have yet to see someone return after lets say 3 years off, but I would bet they would not get credentialed in my current system. The other worry I have is losing my skill. I would hate to return to work and make a mistake that creates harm.
I’m guessing it’s not just that. If you retire, I’m guessing you will also discontinue your malpractice insurance? And have to give up your office because of other overheads? Would you give up your state license? What if there are additional requirements like the current opioid seminar attendance to maintain licensure? And CME requirements. Recredentialing will require you to show the number of procedures that you have performed in the last so many months. You might be relegated to doing locums if you did decide that you wanted to rejoin the workforce. DEA license continuation will be a pain too, if you need one for your practice.
Yes, it is a rather arduous process. I don't recommend it as first option. But I've been there and done that.

I was earning about 178% of the median income for an invasive cardiologist in 2000 (based on MGMA data) because I was working unsustainable hours in a solo, rural practice with a huge demand. I was so burned out I couldn't imagine working another day. I sold my practice to the university where I had trained and "retired" on a middle class lifestyle with no real plan.

Eventually, I began working as a healthcare equity analyst. Later I earned an MBA, just because the subject matter was interesting.

Still later I became seriously ill and might have died (due to erroneous diagnosis) if not for my medical training. I decided to go back to medicine after that.

I earned over 800 CME credits over about 1.5 years and scored in the top decile on my board re-certification exam (the results are reported in deciles rather than percentiles). With this work completed, I applied for licenses in two states where I had practiced previously and both were granted. Ditto DEA and other needed credentials.

I contacted colleagues where I had worked in the past and was hired by the hospital to return. The credentials cmte required me to work for two weeks under supervision of an established cardiologist not affiliated with hospital. After that, I returned to full-time work, albeit non-invasive.

I've been back for over 3.5 years now. My fund of knowledge is better now than ever (largely due to plethora of online learning opportunities available now, and lower workload). The work is still stressful and the hours are still long, but my workload is probably no worse than the median cardiologist this time.

BTW: Locums probably wouldn't be an option initially because those opportunities typically require work history within last six months.
User avatar
JDCarpenter
Posts: 1800
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:42 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by JDCarpenter »

flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:33 pm ...

The real issue is that my wife does not want to travel to those countries that do not have good accommodations and other living conditions. She wants to stay at good hotels, while I could just sleep at airport floor if necessary. In that sense, we do not have enough and she does not mind working for a few more years.
First, interesting thread--the first one I've read since we returned from our first real retirement trip... (ages 57/56, and both enjoyed our jobs: litigation attorney and OBG)

As others have mentioned, you don't really look like you are in a position to retire yet--and query if you yourself would be ok sleeping on the airport floor in 15 years?

We worked extra 2 years to enable DW's group to find a replacement for her (on top of an extra couple of years to make sure we had clean margins!) As a result, to keep our spending at the preretirement level would only take 2.3% of portfolio. Instead, we have an upper limit of 4% m/l. When equities crash, we have a lot of room to fall back to what was a pretty nice lifestyle to begin with. (And I'm still not counting social security, which is likely another substantial cushion.)

In the meantime, we are in a position to not fret about cost of travel. First trip was 8 weeks in Peru. Still traveled pretty cheap, no checked bags and accommodations tended to be full of twenty-something Europeans rather than affluent retirees. But, it was nice to be able to book intracountry flights without worrying about costs. So too, adding on private guides for a few added jaunts was nice, and trying the various "top restaurants in the world" in Miraflores. In the midst of planning Jan/Feb in Caribbean, have south pacific 80% booked for most of three months next summer, and are debating whether Antarctica is 2018-19, or a year later.... Again, this shoots way past what we ever spent before (save for the years when all three kids were in college).

While working, we had 1 week of dive travel a year (with three exceptional 2 week trips in 27 years) and I worked nearly every weekend day and holiday; thus, much deferred travel, for which the extra dollars are nice. Just guessing that your wife, like mine, will want business class seats on trans-pacific flights; and that you will before too long!

Of course, this is highly subjective. We have the travel bug, don't get homesick, and were lucky that our physical conditioning work wasn't torpedoed by accident/disease/death. It's life: you pays/saves your money, and you takes your chances.
Our personal blog (no ads) of why we saved/invested: https://www.lisajtravels.com/
TheNightsToCome
Posts: 955
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:48 pm

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

JDCarpenter wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:07 pm
flyingaway wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:33 pm ...

The real issue is that my wife does not want to travel to those countries that do not have good accommodations and other living conditions. She wants to stay at good hotels, while I could just sleep at airport floor if necessary. In that sense, we do not have enough and she does not mind working for a few more years.
First, interesting thread--the first one I've read since we returned from our first real retirement trip... (ages 57/56, and both enjoyed our jobs: litigation attorney and OBG)

As others have mentioned, you don't really look like you are in a position to retire yet--and query if you yourself would be ok sleeping on the airport floor in 15 years?

We worked extra 2 years to enable DW's group to find a replacement for her (on top of an extra couple of years to make sure we had clean margins!) As a result, to keep our spending at the preretirement level would only take 2.3% of portfolio. Instead, we have an upper limit of 4% m/l. When equities crash, we have a lot of room to fall back to what was a pretty nice lifestyle to begin with. (And I'm still not counting social security, which is likely another substantial cushion.)

In the meantime, we are in a position to not fret about cost of travel. First trip was 8 weeks in Peru. Still traveled pretty cheap, no checked bags and accommodations tended to be full of twenty-something Europeans rather than affluent retirees. But, it was nice to be able to book intracountry flights without worrying about costs. So too, adding on private guides for a few added jaunts was nice, and trying the various "top restaurants in the world" in Miraflores. In the midst of planning Jan/Feb in Caribbean, have south pacific 80% booked for most of three months next summer, and are debating whether Antarctica is 2018-19, or a year later.... Again, this shoots way past what we ever spent before (save for the years when all three kids were in college).

While working, we had 1 week of dive travel a year (with three exceptional 2 week trips in 27 years) and I worked nearly every weekend day and holiday; thus, much deferred travel, for which the extra dollars are nice. Just guessing that your wife, like mine, will want business class seats on trans-pacific flights; and that you will before too long!

Of course, this is highly subjective. We have the travel bug, don't get homesick, and were lucky that our physical conditioning work wasn't torpedoed by accident/disease/death. It's life: you pays/saves your money, and you takes your chances.
Congratulations on your retirement.

Worries about healthcare costs keep me working. May I ask what your health insurance premiums are as a couple pre-Medicare?
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

protagonist wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:52 am
flyingaway wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:45 am This example has come up many times. I was thinking about it exactly last night. What if I die very soon? I would die peacefully, knowing that my family would be taken care of without worrying about the money.
So it's an individual decision.

But my thought is that if you already have enough to be financially independent , albeit with no margin of error, for your retirement, and you are still in your 50s, you already have plenty to leave your loved ones if you kick the bucket tomorrow.

Then again, if you love your work, go for it. Work as long as you can....why not? Just realize that you will not be traveling first class and staying in good hotels much if you only have 4 weeks vacation per year. If you quit maybe you can fly coach and stay in cheap hotels 3 months per year instead if you quit. You must prioritize.

(I am using the OP's criteria). Chacun a son gout.
No, I do not love my job, although I do not hate it yet. No, I will not work forever. In my OP, I meant that I am willing to work for some more time to create some margins to my portfolio, make some money for my sons' wedding, and probably take out the sequence of returns risks.

"The potential problem is ..." is the (potential) problem that I am afraid of getting into by simply making more money.
Topic Author
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: Why NOT make more money?

Post by flyingaway »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:59 am All these types of examples contain within them the subtle implication that life is not enjoyable if you have a full time job and that there is no ability to obtain a work life balance. I would ask you this question, are most of your savings coming from abundance or are you scrimping and cutting corners to create an ever bigger pile of money each month? If it is the former you likely have some form of work life balance and are able to enjoy life even with a full time job, if it is the latter then maybe you should save a little less and enjoy yourself a little more since you have enough already. I am 99% you fall into the former category not the latter.
Life is certainly enjoyable, and I am making every effort to enjoy my life. All our savings come from our salary. As I mentioned before, my job allows me to do many things that other people cannot do without leaving their jobs.
Post Reply