Can I retire today?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Teague
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:15 pm

Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm

Dear Friends,

I do believe my narcissist sociopath of a boss has finally done the trick today. I am ready to tell him to stick his job up his asset allocation, and post-haste. I'm pretty sure I have the resources to do this, having consulted a few calculators and whatever common sense I may have, but I would appreciate a quick review by any willing. Thank you very much.

All amounts below are back-of-the napkin close enough, and conservative (i.e. on rounding, everything is against my favor. e.g. if my pension income were going to be $6185 per month, I called it $6100).


Emergency funds: Covered
Well insured, including umbrella. Expenses listed below include very good health insurance.
Effective Tax Rates: 16% Federal, 5% State
State of Residence: CA
Age: 58 “Planning age:” 102
________________________________________________________________
Current retirement assets : 875K
Assume all expense ratios are 0.1% (they are actually less)
Assume all assets are 35% S&P 500, 65% intermediate bond fund
Tax-free $70K
Taxable $25K
Tax deferred $780K
________________________________________________________________
Income in retirement:
Pension with COLA, income starting immediately: $6100/month ($73,200 annually)
SS starting at 67: $2500/month ($30,000 annually)
_________________________________________________________________
Expenses in retirement:
Adequate, and about what I spend now: $6200/month ($74,400K annual)
Let’s party, and what I’m planning for: $8000/month (96K annual)

So, what say ye? Shall I cast off the shackles that have bound me these long years? Shall I enter my name into that great roll, the Retirement Class of 2017?

Gratefully,
Teague
Semper Augustus

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bottlecap
Posts: 5855
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Location: Tennessee

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by bottlecap » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:22 pm

Seems like it, if your pension plan doesn't go belly up!

Enjoy it.

JT

Teague
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:24 pm

Thank you! It's unlikely to go belly up, possible I guess, but essentially a state government pension.

Thanks again,
Teague
Semper Augustus

DavidRoseMountain
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:27 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by DavidRoseMountain » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:28 pm

Because of the conservative stock to bond ratio, I would only withdraw about 2% from your 875,000 savings.
So that's $17,500 a year, inflation adjusted thereafter.
That withdrawal plus your pension should give you 90,700.

Could you consider a lateral move to a different department with a different boss?
Could you be assertive to your boss about how when he said "x" it felt to you like "y" ?
Last edited by DavidRoseMountain on Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

euroswiss
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:40 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by euroswiss » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:29 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm
Dear Friends,

I do believe my narcissist sociopath of a boss has finally done the trick today. I am ready to tell him to stick his job up his asset allocation, and post-haste. I'm pretty sure I have the resources to do this, having consulted a few calculators and whatever common sense I may have, but I would appreciate a quick review by any willing. Thank you very much.

All amounts below are back-of-the napkin close enough, and conservative (i.e. on rounding, everything is against my favor. e.g. if my pension income were going to be $6185 per month, I called it $6100).


Emergency funds: Covered
Well insured, including umbrella. Expenses listed below include very good health insurance.
Effective Tax Rates: 16% Federal, 5% State
State of Residence: CA
Age: 58 “Planning age:” 102
________________________________________________________________
Current retirement assets : 875K
Assume all expense ratios are 0.1% (they are actually less)
Assume all assets are 35% S&P 500, 65% intermediate bond fund
Tax-free $70K
Taxable $25K
Tax deferred $780K
________________________________________________________________
Income in retirement:
Pension with COLA, income starting immediately: $6100/month ($73,200 annually)
SS starting at 67: $2500/month ($30,000 annually)
_________________________________________________________________
Expenses in retirement:
Adequate, and about what I spend now: $6200/month ($74,400K annual)
Let’s party, and what I’m planning for: $8000/month (96K annual)

So, what say ye? Shall I cast off the shackles that have bound me these long years? Shall I enter my name into that great roll, the Retirement Class of 2017?

Gratefully,
Teague
Congratulations: good to go! :sharebeer

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PaddyMac
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by PaddyMac » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:29 pm

Assuming your SS is not offset by your safe state pension (you've checked?), then I would take the afternoon+ off.

Personally, I would have a bit more in equities, considering your pension is safe.

Teague
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:32 pm

DavidRoseMountain wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:28 pm
Because of the conservative stock to bond ratio, I would only withdraw about 2% from your 875,000 savings.
So that's $17,500 a year, inflation adjusted thereafter.
That withdrawal plus your pension should give you 90,700.

Could you consider a lateral move to a different department with a different boss?
Could you be assertive to your boss about how when he said "x" it felt to you like "y" ?
Thanks, appreciated. Believe me, this boss is not one to discuss things and sing Kumbaya around the campfire!
Semper Augustus

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:33 pm

PaddyMac wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:29 pm
Assuming your SS is not offset by your safe state pension (you've checked?), then I would take the afternoon+ off.

Personally, I would have a bit more in equities, considering your pension is safe.
Thank you! Yes, I think I will gradually adjust by AA upward, though current CAPE probably has me needlessly worried about that.
No offset as far as I can tell, I paid SS taxes throughout the whole career.
Semper Augustus

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:36 pm

euroswiss wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:29 pm
Congratulations: good to go! :sharebeer
Thank You!
Semper Augustus

Grt2bOutdoors
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Location: New York

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:43 pm

Enjoy your retirement! :sharebeer
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Sandtrap
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Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳 Retired.

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:45 pm

Celebrate early retirement. :sharebeer

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El Greco
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by El Greco » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:52 pm

Bring your AA to at least 50/50 and tell the boss to go stick it. :sharebeer

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oldcomputerguy
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Location: In the middle of five acres of woods

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 pm

Let me be the first (or maybe not the first, but anyway)... Welcome to the Retirement Class of 2017! I've been here since January 3. Come on in, the water's fine!
It’s taken me a lot of years, but I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

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dumbbunny
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Location: Oregon coast

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by dumbbunny » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:04 pm

Plug your numbers into www.cfiresim.com and see what you get.
“It’s the curse of old men to realize that in the end we control nothing." "Homeland" episode, "Gerontion"

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:14 pm

dumbbunny wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:04 pm
Plug your numbers into www.cfiresim.com and see what you get.
Oh yes, I've done that. And Firecalc, and Fidelity Retirement Income Planner, and Flexible Retirement Planner too!
Semper Augustus

Teague
Posts: 1177
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:15 pm

El Greco wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:52 pm
Bring your AA to at least 50/50 and tell the boss to go stick it. :sharebeer
OK, I'll grit my teeth and do that. CAPE notwithstanding? OK...
Semper Augustus

FraggleRock
Posts: 362
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by FraggleRock » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm
Assume all assets are 35% S&P 500, 65% intermediate bond fund
I think, at your age, should be: 80% stocks and 20% cash.

Teague
Posts: 1177
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:43 pm
Enjoy your retirement! :sharebeer
Thank you!
Semper Augustus

Teague
Posts: 1177
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:17 pm

FraggleRock wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm
Assume all assets are 35% S&P 500, 65% intermediate bond fund
I think, at your age, should be: 80% stocks and 20% cash.
Woah there pardner! That's the deep end of the pool, no?!
Semper Augustus

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:17 pm

oldcomputerguy wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 pm
Let me be the first (or maybe not the first, but anyway)... Welcome to the Retirement Class of 2017! I've been here since January 3. Come on in, the water's fine!
Thank you!
Semper Augustus

Teague
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:18 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:45 pm
Celebrate early retirement. :sharebeer
Thank you!
Semper Augustus

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baconavocado
Posts: 189
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by baconavocado » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:21 pm

Congratulations!

That's a nice pension, worth about $1.7M by my calculations (assuming living to age 85, 3% t-bond rate, 2% inflation rate).

FullYellowJacket
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by FullYellowJacket » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:24 pm

The only thing I can think is that perhaps you should consider Roth conversions of that tax deferred money up to the top of the 15% bracket until SS kicks in and your tax bracket may go up.

Edit: Congratulations! Above assumes you are retiring.
Last edited by FullYellowJacket on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Teague
Posts: 1177
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:24 pm

baconavocado wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:21 pm
Congratulations!

That's a nice pension, worth about $1.7M by my calculations (assuming living to age 85, 3% t-bond rate, 2% inflation rate).
Yeah, it's a good one alright. Lots lots of night shifts and other weirdness for 20 years. I could cash it out for $1.1M, but I'm taking the monthly payments.
Semper Augustus

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:25 pm

FullYellowJacket wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:24 pm
The only thing I can think is that perhaps you should consider Roth conversions of that tax deferred money up to the top of the 15% bracket until SS kicks in and your tax bracket may go up.
Thanks, but I think I'm squarely in the 25% bracket from now until eternity.
Semper Augustus

victw
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:07 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by victw » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:26 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm

Emergency funds: Covered
Well insured, including umbrella. Expenses listed below include very good health insurance.
Effective Tax Rates: 16% Federal, 5% State
State of Residence: CA
Age: 58 “Planning age:” 102
2 questions:
1) Do you expect health care insurance expenses to stay the same or change? We expect ours to double from the time we start ER to medicare age.

2) Are you retiring to something?

I'd probably move it slowly but depending on the goals of your stash - I'd say it's light on equities. Have you looked at some of the studies - more equities is generally better over the long run.

I'd sleep on it - maybe Monday looks better.

Vic

FullYellowJacket
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by FullYellowJacket » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:26 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:25 pm
FullYellowJacket wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:24 pm
The only thing I can think is that perhaps you should consider Roth conversions of that tax deferred money up to the top of the 15% bracket until SS kicks in and your tax bracket may go up.
Thanks, but I think I'm squarely in the 25% bracket from now until eternity.
Not a bad problem to have! :sharebeer

Teague
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:36 pm

victw wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:26 pm
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm

Emergency funds: Covered
Well insured, including umbrella. Expenses listed below include very good health insurance.
Effective Tax Rates: 16% Federal, 5% State
State of Residence: CA
Age: 58 “Planning age:” 102
2 questions:
1) Do you expect health care insurance expenses to stay the same or change? We expect ours to double from the time we start ER to medicare age.

2) Are you retiring to something?

I'd probably move it slowly but depending on the goals of your stash - I'd say it's light on equities. Have you looked at some of the studies - more equities is generally better over the long run.

I'd sleep on it - maybe Monday looks better.

Vic
Great questions!

1) I expect health care costs to rise of course. 6.5 years until I hit Medicare. Fidelity projects health care inflation rate at 5.5%.
Current health insurance (very good insurance) $500/month. Given the above that would be $700/mo at 65. Totally doable I think.

2) Another good question! I have been vaguely mapping out things to do. I have lots of hobbies (sailing, photography (occasionally for money), hiking, skiing, other things. I think I'll be fine. Plus I have a house on 2+ acres with animals to tend to. I think I'll be OK. Thanks for asking.
Semper Augustus

TravelGeek
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by TravelGeek » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:41 pm

Ready for takeoff. Bon voyage!

:sharebeer

Tal-
Posts: 358
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Tal- » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:43 pm

Do your projections include healthcare?

If so, I agree that you're good to go - though like others, I would suggest a low withdraw rate (2-3%) with that asset allocation. You can probably ramp it up in a couple years, but let's cross that bridge when you get there. For now, just stop showing up and see how long it takes them to stop paying you (i.e. fix the glitch).
Debt is to personal finance as a knife is to cooking.

student
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by student » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:44 pm

I didn't see you mentioning your family situation. If you are single, the pension alone will give you a comfortable lifestyle.

Lars_2013
Posts: 173
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Lars_2013 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:46 pm

Others have said it--you have enough money to retire. The only think I'll add is to make sure you provide whatever notice is required for the pension :) .

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:46 pm

Tal- wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:43 pm
Do your projections include healthcare?

If so, I agree that you're good to go - though like others, I would suggest a low withdraw rate (2-3%) with that asset allocation. You can probably ramp it up in a couple years, but let's cross that bridge when you get there. For now, just stop showing up and see how long it takes them to stop paying you (i.e. fix the glitch).
Yes, expenses include healthcare, thanks for making sure.
Semper Augustus

Teague
Posts: 1177
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:47 pm

Lars_2013 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:46 pm
Others have said it--you have enough money to retire. The only think I'll add is to make sure you provide whatever notice is required for the pension :) .
Thanks, I made that phone call this morning!
Semper Augustus

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Leif
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Leif » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:17 pm
FraggleRock wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm
Assume all assets are 35% S&P 500, 65% intermediate bond fund
I think, at your age, should be: 80% stocks and 20% cash.
Woah there pardner! That's the deep end of the pool, no?!
Very deep, yes. I always glance at the post count when I get advice.

I also think at 50/50 is good, based on your pension. But, that does not need to be done immediately, IMO. Looks good to go to me assuming your good with your medical. Some even suggest a low stock AA at retirement that increases over time. The start of retirement is when your portfolio is most susceptible to damage.
Last edited by Leif on Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:58 pm

Leif wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:54 pm
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:17 pm
FraggleRock wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 pm
Assume all assets are 35% S&P 500, 65% intermediate bond fund
I think, at your age, should be: 80% stocks and 20% cash.
Woah there pardner! That's the deep end of the pool, no?!
Very deep, yes. I always glance at the post count when I get advice.

I also think at 50/50 is good, based on your pension. But, that does not need to be done immediately, IMO. Looks good to go to me assuming your good with your medical.
Thanks. Medical is good, or as good as anyone can have it these days.
Semper Augustus

bubbadog
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by bubbadog » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:03 pm

Looks like financially you are good to go. Congrats!

One question: If you did not have to deal with your boss, would you want to keep working?

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Mlm
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Mlm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:04 pm

That's a great pension. It looks like you are good to go when ever you want to. Sometimes just knowing that you can retire makes all the difference. :beer

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:12 pm

bubbadog wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:03 pm
Looks like financially you are good to go. Congrats!

One question: If you did not have to deal with your boss, would you want to keep working?
I was planning to retire July 1, 2018, no matter what. This "last straw" simply moved that up a few months.
Semper Augustus

hoops777
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by hoops777 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:15 pm

Congrats and that is a great pension that I and my fellow Californians are paying for :( :D
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

bubbadog
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by bubbadog » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:23 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:12 pm
bubbadog wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:03 pm
Looks like financially you are good to go. Congrats!

One question: If you did not have to deal with your boss, would you want to keep working?
I was planning to retire July 1, 2018, no matter what. This "last straw" simply moved that up a few months.
I think you are in great shape. Leaving a few months early is no big deal. :sharebeer

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:27 pm

hoops777 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:15 pm
Congrats and that is a great pension that I and my fellow Californians are paying for :( :D
When you and our fellow Californians had a particular kind of medical emergency in the middle of the night y'all were pretty thankful I was around. Just sayin'
Semper Augustus

bubbadog
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by bubbadog » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:29 pm

You earned your pension. Enjoy your retirement.

Teague
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:33 pm

bubbadog wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:29 pm
You earned your pension. Enjoy your retirement.
Thank you!
Semper Augustus

KlangFool
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:41 pm

OP,

If I have enough money to retire, why would I stressed out with my manager? I just say no to anything that I do not like. The stress would be on my boss. Anyhow, this is just my opinion.

KlangFool

Teague
Posts: 1177
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:47 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:41 pm
OP,

If I have enough money to retire, why would I stressed out with my manager? I just say no to anything that I do not like. The stress would be on my boss. Anyhow, this is just my opinion.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

I agree with your sentiment. It has been difficult to walk away until now because a family has counted on me and my income for the last several years. If that were not the case I would have left long ago. Uprooting a kid from their friends/ school, asking spouse to move with me and hopefully find a new job, would have been very hard. My type of job is not common and I would have had to move to get another comparably good job.

Teague
Semper Augustus

KlangFool
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:17 pm

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:41 pm
OP,

If I have enough money to retire, why would I stressed out with my manager? I just say no to anything that I do not like. The stress would be on my boss. Anyhow, this is just my opinion.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

I agree with your sentiment. It has been difficult to walk away until now because a family has counted on me and my income for the last several years. If that were not the case I would have left long ago. Uprooting a kid from their friends/ school, asking spouse to move with me and hopefully find a new job, would have been very hard. My type of job is not common and I would have had to move to get another comparably good job.

Teague
Teague,

Why would you quit now and make your boss's life easier? I would just smile and say no to him/her whenever something needs to be done.

KlangFool

InMyDreams
Posts: 395
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by InMyDreams » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:20 pm

A while ago, my brother inquired about a friend - when would she retire? I said, I think she has enough, but is holding out for 65.
My brother said - Ah, just one bad day away from retirement.

Sounds like you hit it! I'm feeling the urge, too.

Enjoy!!

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Sandtrap
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Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳 Retired.

Re: Can I retire today?

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:24 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:17 pm
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:41 pm
OP,

If I have enough money to retire, why would I stressed out with my manager? I just say no to anything that I do not like. The stress would be on my boss. Anyhow, this is just my opinion.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

I agree with your sentiment. It has been difficult to walk away until now because a family has counted on me and my income for the last several years. If that were not the case I would have left long ago. Uprooting a kid from their friends/ school, asking spouse to move with me and hopefully find a new job, would have been very hard. My type of job is not common and I would have had to move to get another comparably good job.

Teague
Teague,

Why would you quit now and make your boss's life easier? I would just smile and say no to him/her whenever something needs to be done.

KlangFool
Love that!
In doing so, "Teague" would be the stand in "hero" for so many working schleps who had to go another day and another day under the heel of an unmerciful boss without whimpering or making tiny mewing sounds. :shock:

And, the "Bogle" path helped to make it all possible.

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warowits
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Re: Can I retire today?

Post by warowits » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:28 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:17 pm

Why would you quit now and make your boss's life easier? I would just smile and say no to him/her whenever something needs to be done.
An employee who doesn't need the money and just continues to come to work to make his bosses life miserable. Its a decent premise for a sitcom.

The numbers look fine, enjoy retirement.
There are an army of people whose pay checks depend on convincing people to invest in ways that are against their self interest. This forum is the volunteer army that fights back!

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