I have to fire someone that I care about personally

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mbasherp
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by mbasherp »

As a lifelong professional musician that has done both the corporate scene and the even more cut throat top tier recording and touring world, this is unfortunately a completely normal thing. Do it in person and show the respect you would want to be shown. Don’t beat around the bush and don’t be shady. Talk of severance is nice but in the music biz it is incredibly rare.

If your friendship is a really good one, it’ll survive this. If not, it was based on business anyway and you would expect it it to change accordingly. One of our great perks as musicians is that we do what we love most for a living. This is one of the times that it backfires, but we all have to take the good with the bad. Good luck both with this situation and with growing the band.

I feel I should add, for those that either don’t know or dislike this image based aspect of the entertainment business, that there are three criteria for a gig:

Be a good person
Play the part
Look the part

It is unreasonable to pass judgement on the reality of this situation without understanding that about the business. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t change it.
Last edited by mbasherp on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

I find the basis of this whole thread to be reprehensible. The OP needs to live with themselves.
For what it's worth I hired a band to play at my wedding sight unseen - I did not care what they look like so long as they are dressed appropriately and most importantly can play their instruments well and SING. Our band did all of the above in spades (well worth the $$$), it's been years and people who were there still talk about the band I hired. My question to the OP, what convinced you to hire this person about 3 years ago? It certainly was not her looks, it had to be singing ability. Let's say you do hire someone else who's more aesthetically pleasing and you still don't get more gigs. What then? Then you should realize that you were unlucky you didn't get any more gigs, either way you are going to pay a steep price for it. Someone once told me you can't have your cake and eat it. How apropos......

My condolences to the person who will be let go, but she'll be better off for it, nothing worse than being surrounded by people who don't want you there. We are all adults we know what the overriding factor here is........
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bottlecap
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by bottlecap »

Tough job. I don't envy you.

I don't know the business, so I'll refrain from judgment. But I get that it's a business.

I guess all you can do is tell her face-to-face that the band wants this opportunity that it originally passed up a year ago, but the agency told you that it wants a female lead with more stage presence before making the leap. You feel terrible about it but must part ways.

That's a lot easier said than done, but I think you should be quick and too the point. She will want an explanation, so give her the simplest one.

Expect to lose a friend, at least for a few years.

Good luck,

JT
ccf
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by ccf »

Well.. this is a bad situation, but from your posts, you don't want her in the band and there isn't any going back to the way things were. Like Grt2bOutdoors said above, "Nothing worse than being surrounded by people who don't want you there". So on to the firing...
guitarguy wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:57 amI'm not sure if we should say "we're letting you go at the end of X month" or something like that? Financially I do know she's at least somewhat dependent on our income which I feel absolutely horrible about leaving her without on short notice. I suppose we could give her the option to stay on for a bit so it's not an immediate hit...
You're firing her so she has to leave on short notice. If it were my business and I could afford it, I'd probably write a check for the amount that she would have expected to make during the next month. Two if I had the money. Hand her the check when you fire her. I doubt she'll want to see you or interact with you after that, so don't make her.

My only other advice is do it in person and don't make excuses or recite a litany of her faults. You are replacing her because you think you can make more money with a different singer. Just say that. Take responsibility for the decision, don't blame the talent agency. It'll suck. You'll feel guilt.
Last edited by ccf on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:48 pm, edited 8 times in total.
aristotelian
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by aristotelian »

You keep saying to answer the question, but there isn't really a question. You have already made the decision. If you are wedded to it, then execute it in a professional manner. If you can offer severance and COBRA that would be ideal. What else is there to discuss?

It seems your band is pretty successful as you are clearing $100k and on the verge of a contract. It seems hard to believe that you could be that successful with a lead singer who isn't doing the job. Are you sure she is the weak link? I would be inclined to "don't fix what ain't broke"...
CFOKevin
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by CFOKevin »

Blaming it on a third party sounds appealing. However, it makes you seem weak and like you don't stand up for your friends when they are being done wrong.

Best to take the great advice up thread. Have someone else there, do it in person, keep it simple, be clear and make sure you are understood. In a corporate setting, it is important to not say you are sorry. Not as important here but probably the best course. Thank her for the work she did. Although I've been prepared for longer conversations, in the 100+ terminations I have had to do, it has never taken more than 5 minutes. Both sides generally are uncomfortable.

Really sucks but usually is for the best. Terminations almost always come six or more months too late.

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fishmonger
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by fishmonger »

I get this is difficult, but don't overthink it. Be short and to the point, and most of all be professional. You know her well, so you probably have some idea of how she will react. Practice what you will do/say in those scenarios: what if she begs to stay? Falls apart in front of your eyes? Or throws something at you (joking but not joking).

Time to pull the bandaid off
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guitarguy
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by guitarguy »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:18 pm I find the basis of this whole thread to be reprehensible. The OP needs to live with themselves.
For what it's worth I hired a band to play at my wedding sight unseen - I did not care what they look like so long as they are dressed appropriately and most importantly can play their instruments well and SING. Our band did all of the above in spades (well worth the $$$), it's been years and people who were there still talk about the band I hired. My question to the OP, what convinced you to hire this person about 3 years ago? It certainly was not her looks, it had to be singing ability. Let's say you do hire someone else who's more aesthetically pleasing and you still don't get more gigs. What then? Then you should realize that you were unlucky you didn't get any more gigs, either way you are going to pay a steep price for it. Someone once told me you can't have your cake and eat it. How apropos......

My condolences to the person who will be let go, but she'll be better off for it, nothing worse than being surrounded by people who don't want you there. We are all adults we know what the overriding factor here is........
Wow. With all due respect you clearly don't get it. And that's fine. I expected this type of response...especially on this forum. Look how hard we all are on people with $30k in student loan debt that still have the audacity to own an iPhone and drive a car made this century. Everyone else knows better, and it's easy to come down hard on people on an internet forum.

First off, I can assure you, I'm not a reprehensible person. You throw that word around, yet you know nothing about me. I had plenty of opportunity to be a reprehensible bleephole a year and a half ago. I could've really been cut throat and fired her and grew the band then without even giving her a chance to try and grow into her new role. On the contrary we've given her every chance and unfortunately she isn't measuring up.

Secondly, I don't know when you got married nor how old you are. But these days, you don't hire a band sight unseen. How foolish. 1 minute of video tells all. And you have less than that to stand out from a TON of competition and earn someone's business. Especially at the level that this band is at and the competition we're up against.

To answer your question, we hired her because she's a great singer and she has a great personality that fits in with the group. Simple as that. All those things are still true. In fact, she was not as good looking (which - yikes - we also considered at the time) as the other 2 girls we auditioned then. But she had a better voice and she was laid back and cool so she got the job. The problem is, coming from a backup singer role, she hasn't blossomed into an entertainer like we hoped she would. Everyone is so quick to focus on the fact that I used the word "looks" that they forget I said *even more importantly her stage presence* right after that. Apparently we're all adults so that's to mean I'm calling her a fat troll. Far from the truth actually. If she had a killer personality on stage, the fact that she's not a supermodel would not matter. But unfortunately she just doesn't have that. If she was Halle Berry, she could sing everything flat and we'd get booked for 300 gigs a year. If you think otherwise, then you're naive.

Lastly, you seem to carry the notion that we're going to replace her with someone that looks great in a bathing suit but can't sing a note to save their life. That's just not the case. We have a talent agency sending us recruits to audition. At this level we're talking about working with people that can sing...everyone we audition will be able to sing. We need more than that. We're not hosting karaoke. We need a singer that also has the coveted quality of being an entertainer to boot. Now that we have a higher level talent pool to choose from which we did not have before, I expect many of our audition candidates the agency sends our way to have both of those qualities. From there it'll be narrowing it down to the person who's personality clicks with the group the best.
Pacman
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Pacman »

OP,

I wouldn't get discouraged by the feedback here. Many of the people that post on this forum work in client service (attorneys, consultants, CPAs) and they are clearly forgetting how recruiting for these jobs work at top firms. Simply put, people who don't have the right look or personality for these roles would never even get hired into these positions in the first place (regardless of brain power). I had partners tell me they preferred someone with a 3.5 GPA versus someone with a 4.0 GPA. You took a chance, gave the person the opportunity to grow in the job, and they didn't cut it. End of story. I would just let her know in person.
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guitarguy
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by guitarguy »

aristotelian wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:34 pm You keep saying to answer the question, but there isn't really a question. You have already made the decision. If you are wedded to it, then execute it in a professional manner. If you can offer severance and COBRA that would be ideal. What else is there to discuss?

It seems your band is pretty successful as you are clearing $100k and on the verge of a contract. It seems hard to believe that you could be that successful with a lead singer who isn't doing the job. Are you sure she is the weak link? I would be inclined to "don't fix what ain't broke"...
Many have answered it...not a specific question but the advice given ON TOPIC has been great. I didn't think to have someone else in the room, I'm glad many chimed in to say do it face-to-face, get it out quickly, etc. The idea of some kind of severance package didn't come to mind either. It may not be COBRA and a large payout, but we can work something out I'm sure to help her.

We are successful now, there's no doubt about that. We're doing well. And don't fix what ain't broke has been discussed in our group ad ad nauseam. That's what makes this such a big and tough decision.

But yes, she is by far the weakest performer in the band, and she stands out as such. We will be a better band with a better performer in her place. That, in combination with the agency contract, I project will about double our business, or more, by the end of 2019. We'll be getting several thousand dollars of investment from the agency into our promotional materials and advertising in the first year alone with this contract. It's a huge opportunity.
PoppyA
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by PoppyA »

It’s like tearing up the flooring in my house and replacing it. I anguished At the thought for so long knowing I had to do it. In the end I just had to DO IT. Now that is is in the rear view mirror I am so happy, and feel so much lighter not having the stress wear me down.

Not sure what your finances are, but maybe some kind of severance pay?

You owe it to yourself to do it in person. You can do this and be compassionate. She may not receive it that way, but you CAN walk away feeling you were honest and forthright about this move. Ask yourself how you would want to be told, develop a plan and do it SOON. Get on with it man! You can look back and be proud that you handled this tough situation, you can grow and learn from this. For most people firing ANYBODY is hard, but it happens every day.

You don’t want to string her along. Let her move on and get started with her next move.

Just do it.

Do you have someone else in mind? Better get moving in that direction pronto.....

This is what you tell her:

“she hasn't blossomed into an entertainer”
*even more importantly her stage presence*

Anyway she would quit?
Last edited by PoppyA on Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aristotelian
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by aristotelian »

By the way, one thing I would not do is post specific details in writing on the internet, having to do with firing a female due to her looks, using an account that could possibly be traced to me...Doh!
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

You put it out there so you have to take the good with the bad. Here's my advice for whatever that is worth - Before you do it, talk with the other band members, you don't want this to be a surprise to them since you all will have to work together with the new person. Sit down with the person you have to let go, it might be helpful to have the #2 most important person in the band be there when you do it. Tell her you've appreciated her work over the last 3 years but the band is going in a new direction and you are letting her go. Don't say a word about appearances. As you said, it's not about appearance its about entertainment. If she says to give her another chance you'll have to come up with something in advance because after three years of a relationship, well you know......Having the replacement in the wings would be easier, you've already hired them and you won't be left high and dry.

BTW, I know how cutthroat that business is, having had a brief enough stint in the music industry........
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Christine_NM
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Christine_NM »

Sorry, gguy, but are you expecting your lead singer to carry a band that has no stage presence? Recent bands I've seen tend to have dirty hair, dress in rags, and look down at the floor. Hope that is not like you.

You know that women can alter their appearance in remarkable ways. Have you talked about that with her, or are you expecting the perfect singer to show up right after you fire her? I am serious here, find someone better and available before you do your firing.

ETA - I just remembered an interview on Youtube with Agneta of ABBA. She still doesn't think she and Anni-Frid were very good because they did not plan their dancing and costumes together. Au contraire, they were all the better for being spontaneous. Yes you are not ABBA but all of this so subjective, what are we supposed to say. I guess we are really just holding your hand while you go through this.
Last edited by Christine_NM on Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OnTrack2020
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by OnTrack2020 »

Obviously, you (and your talent agency) are looking for a performer/entertainer, not a person with talent (which you already have, according to what you wrote). We older folks pretty much know talent and can hear talent. Doesn't matter what the person looks like. It's the younger people who buy into the marketing side of things.

I'm thinking about America's got talent with Susan Boyle--fantasticly incredible voice, but needed help with her image/style/stage presence. And they (I'm assuming someone like Simon Cowell) got her hooked up with the right people to help her with her image. Why can you not do this? You don't have to be the person to help her with her image/stage prescence--it needs to come from a third party. I wouldn't fire your singer if she has talent. I would ask the talent agency if they can hook her up with a stylist or find a different talent agency. If your band is as good as you say you are, then it shouldn't matter. If it does matter and you are looking for someone with more stage presence, then your band really isn't that good--and no amount of firing a talented lead singer is going to help you.

I can name numerous singers that don't have much stage presence, but their voice just stands out. Would much rather prefer to hear them sing, than to listen to a band/singer who is "marketed" so heavily when you know they simply can't sing, but it's all the background music/auto-tune/lip-synching. And no, I'm not going to listen to Halle Berry sing all day long if she doesn't know how to sing; no matter what her stage presence.

You don't have to fire your lead singer. Your talent agency is not a talent agency---otherwise they wouldn't suggest she be fired. They're an entertainment agency, but not truly looking for talent.

Why do people in this thread keep comparing inanimate objects to a firing a human being?? Flooring, student loan debt, iphones, etc.

This thread has really gone off course.
Last edited by OnTrack2020 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Laurens
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by John Laurens »

guitarguy wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:35 pm
John Laurens wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:20 pm Cass Elliot, Ann Wilson, etc. I would tell the agency off. Your looks, guitar playing, stage presence, and singing must not be good enough to overcome the “deficiencies” you and the collective others see in your band partner.

Regards,
John
Ahh the know it all judgemental guy. Thanks for chiming in. Comparing 2 legendary singers, and brilliant songwriters by the way, carrying 10 extra lbs, but having such strong personalities, charisma oozing out of them, and extraordinary voices that their looks didn't matter. How about Hilary Scott and Meghan Trainor while you're at it? Keep em coming. If you honestly believe these are legit comparisons to what we're trying to do then with all due respect, you are ignorant to this subject. Which, by the way, is not the area I'm looking for advice on.

And for the record...I did tell the agency off. A year and a half ago when they wanted me to fire her. That's the only reason we didn't do this deal then.

I thought to myself...let her grow a little. We'll coach her up. We'll progress on our own and show you guys. She can do it!! Just needs time. She can sing...that's most important. The rest will come along. Looks and stage presence won't matter...people will pick us anyway! She'll grow into the lead role. Etc.

Well, all this time has past and it hasn't panned out like I hoped it would. Turns out professional talent agents that make their money on oh...I dunno...evaluating talent...might know a little bit more than me about whether someone will grow or not.

Like I said...this decision hasn't come lightly people.
You are right. I think you should fire her, immediately. I think it will be better for her.

Regards,
John
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by fishmonger »

Good point about having another person in the room, I should have added that part. I would also document the conversation after the fact, with corroboration from whatever bandmate accompanies you. You can't be too careful in this regard, especially as you are in a roundabout way navigating difficult topics like looks, presence, gender, etc. Better to err on the side of caution
Mako
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Mako »

I have no good advice except what others said: do it in person, have another band member as back up so it doesn't look like it's just you. Tear off the bandaid, don't say "stay on until we find a replacement" or something.

I do want to say I feel like some people are giving the OP a hard time unfairly.

An attorney can be brilliant at the law, and that can be good enough for a while, but if they can't connect with clients well enough to form their own book of business, or worse yet if they are a turn off to the firm's big clients, many top firms are going to eventually give them the boot.

A salesperson can have a superior knowledge of their product and the needs of their potential clients. If they are socially incompetent and can't connect with the clients well enough to actually make sales they won't last long.

It seems like these people are great at their jobs, but jobs like this are more than just technical skill, personality plays a big part. The singer sounds technically skilled but lacking in other areas that seem peripheral but also matter.

You all can say: I want the brilliant attorney, I don't care! I want the great singer at my wedding, I don't care what they look like! Maybe so, but it's not that easy...we can't just look at their stats like some video game--oh she has singing 99, he has lawyering 98...they both have charisma 18 but that doesn't matter. We only know that this person is a great singer because the OP told us so. But if you are watching a 30 second clip among 50 clips of 50 bands, is that going to come through? That's the key here, the band needs to sell itself in a short period of time, and it sounds like the great skill isn't coming through in a way that the rest of the band thinks can sell the band. This is part of the job description and she isn't cutting it in that regard, according to the rest of the band. It's also important IMO that she's already been given a chance to improve. This isn't just "I don't want to work with this ugly person" like some seem to be saying. OP should never have said looks, that's sidetracking the whole thing.

So, if you think it will be fairly easy to find a suitable replacement who is good at all parts of the job then it seems reasonable to do so. I'm assuming you will replace her with that, someone good at everything, not just a face who can't sing...that would be a lateral move at best, a band that looks good but sounds awful won't get many referrals.
123
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by 123 »

While it's seems clear she doesn't "fit" the band it never hurts to look ahead and think about after she's gone who is the next band member to replace because they don't "fit" as well as someone else might. The process doesn't end. It becomes a business instead of a band.
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TN_Boy
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by TN_Boy »

guitarguy,

My sympathies for a difficult situation.

I haven't been on either side of the "you're fired" meeting, but from my life in the corporate world, I believe one of the main things they train the managers on is, as others in this thread have stated, being firm: "the decision has been made, you no longer work for us." The bad news meeting is not the place to wrangle about what-ifs or give me a second chance. You have to send a clear message. The other thing about a true firing in the corporate world (as opposed to a surprise layoff) is that the person being fired should not be shocked -- they should already have been given clear feedback, generally more than once, all is not well. It sounds like the band has already done that.

One comment on the "it" factor. I'm not a performer, so I won't claim I understand what you need in a live band situation. But I often saw in the business world speakers with the "it" factor. They could just take over a room. At one large company I worked for, the #2 in the company was a dazzling speaker. This guy was about 5' 6'' inches tall, and he didn't rise through the corporate ranks on his looks. I.e. short and not handsome. But he had "it" as a speaker. When he started talking, you listened. He ran the sales organization.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by climber2020 »

Regarding the main issue: in-person would be best. I've been in several bands, and that's what I would want if I were being let go.

Regarding the ancillary issue: appearance absolutely makes a difference in this line of work, and you cannot teach charisma or stage presence, at least not to a degree where it will make a significant difference. You either have it or you don't. I can relate to this because I have no charisma whatsoever, and this is one of the main reasons why I did not pursue a career in music. I feel fortunate that I at least had the insight to know this about myself; many people do not, and it's sad to watch.
Yiewsley
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Yiewsley »

Put yourself in her shoes (like maybe in a few years when you "age out" of the band). How would you like to be told? Do that.
Billionaire
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Billionaire »

The cool thing about being a musician, being in a band, is that things can work with an odd duck on stage. Sometimes the odd duck is the draw. For that to work, the band needs to be tight as can be. Maybe you can suggest some cool outfits for her to wear or give her a lead vocal or two. Is it possible to bring in a second back-up singer? That might encourage the current back-up singer to "pick it up". If not, she may get the hint on her own. If you look around the world of music, there are plenty of uncomfortable departures, etc. When the dust settles, the former members reappear in one shape or another.

Dave Mustaine got booted out of Metallica and subsequently formed Megadeath. How cool is that?

Terry Ellis, the manager of Jethro Tull, was given the unfortunate task of informing bassist Glenn Cornick in December 1970 that he is no longer in the band. Terry told Glenn this privately in the airport coffee shop as the band was preparing to fly home after a tour. Glenn was put on another plane. Glenn's replacement was Jeffrey Hammond-Hammond, a childhood friend of band leader Ian Anderson. Jeffrey was about as inexperienced as they come on a musical instrument, but he was Ian's friend. He was in the band during their glory years of 1971 to 1976.
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guitarguy
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by guitarguy »

OnTrack2020 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:52 pm Obviously, you (and your talent agency) are [ ALSO ] looking for a performer/entertainer, not [ JUST ANY ] a person with talent (which you already have, according to what you wrote).
There, I fixed that for you.
OnTrack2020 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:52 pm We older folks pretty much know talent and can hear talent. Doesn't matter what the person looks like. It's the younger people who buy into the marketing side of things.
Respectfully, having been a bandleader for 10 years, you could not be more wrong.
OnTrack2020 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:52 pm This thread has really gone off course.
That, you have spot on.
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guitarguy
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by guitarguy »

Christine_NM wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:43 pm Sorry, gguy, but are you expecting your lead singer to carry a band that has no stage presence? Recent bands I've seen tend to have dirty hair, dress in rags, and look down at the floor. Hope that is not like you.
To answer your question, no.

And we most often perform in suits.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by Pacific »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:56 pm OP,

1) You and your band had decided to kick her out. Your future plan does not include her.

2) If you believe that you can and should smooth her transition to a new work, offer her some form of severance pay.

3) You should include at least one more band member in the meeting. Or else, it may look like it is only you want her out.

If there anything else left?

KlangFool
+1

Also, another reason to have the witness present is that you do not want to risk being accused of sexual harassment which seems to be de rigeur.
financeidiot
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by financeidiot »

guitarguy wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:18 pm We are successful now, there's no doubt about that. We're doing well. And don't fix what ain't broke has been discussed in our group ad ad nauseam. That's what makes this such a big and tough decision.

But yes, she is by far the weakest performer in the band, and she stands out as such. We will be a better band with a better performer in her place. That, in combination with the agency contract, I project will about double our business, or more, by the end of 2019. We'll be getting several thousand dollars of investment from the agency into our promotional materials and advertising in the first year alone with this contract. It's a huge opportunity.
This is the only justification you need. I particularly like your first paragraph.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by guitarguy »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:43 pm You put it out there so you have to take the good with the bad. Here's my advice for whatever that is worth - Before you do it, talk with the other band members, you don't want this to be a surprise to them since you all will have to work together with the new person. Sit down with the person you have to let go, it might be helpful to have the #2 most important person in the band be there when you do it. Tell her you've appreciated her work over the last 3 years but the band is going in a new direction and you are letting her go. Don't say a word about appearances. As you said, it's not about appearance its about entertainment. If she says to give her another chance you'll have to come up with something in advance because after three years of a relationship, well you know......Having the replacement in the wings would be easier, you've already hired them and you won't be left high and dry.

BTW, I know how cutthroat that business is, having had a brief enough stint in the music industry........
Thank you for the advice.

The good with the bad is fair, and I get that. But the "bad" is coming from people that don't have an understanding of the business or the situation. They saw the word "looks" which was completely my mistake for even including since it's a secondary consideration, and took that and ran with it. If she had dynamite charisma her looks wouldn't matter, but unfortunately she doesn't. I wish she did.

I also wish I hadn't bothered posting any context and just asked advice on firing someone who's a colleague and a friend. Then not everyone would know it all.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by guitarguy »

Honest thanks to everyone that gave me constructive advice to handle it in person, have another person present, do it quickly and firmly, etc. This is the stuff I needed.

I think this thread has run it's course.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by sgmhz »

You cannot mix personal and business relationships at the same time. Your mistake is building a personal friendship in such a setting.

I have known many managers & company leaders, that will purposefully avoid socially mixing , precisely because it will make it hard to manage people afterwards. Also people have avoided hiring relatives and friends precisely for this reason. You may have to break the friendship if things don't work out.

I think once you convince yourself that you have to sacrifice the personal relationship, it will be much easier to handle. People gets replaced all the time, and you are a smart person, so you can read a book on how best to present it.

The hardest part is to convince yourself that you need to do it. Just reading what you wrote, I would have personally done it sooner had I been in your boat.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by dbr »

With all due respect people can only respond to what they read and I don't think you did very good job of describing the issue. In fact a lot of what you said was perhaps easy to misinterpret.

I think you are correct that it would have been better not to offer so much information about the circumstances.

So the advice when you have decided to fire someone that you care about personally is to address the issue face to face, communicate why you have decided what to do, make sure you communicate that the issue is not personal (and find a sincere rather than trite way to do this), and be as honest and non-manipulating as you can be. In then end you will not be able to control how that person will take this, but you have already decided that if friendship is to be sacrificed over this, then so be it. It could be this will actually work out somehow, so I would be prepared for the positive. It could happen that this person is able to understand the issue and is interested in helping the band in another way without crashing a friendship, or that they have other opportunities. I know a couple of people who have bands. All the band members are friends and those bands have lost and gained members more than once and people move on.
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by pinhead »

And I would do anything for love, but I wont do that....
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by pinhead »

Would you be mad if a new 'hot' singer you hire left your band for the same exact reasons?
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Re: I have to fire someone that I care about personally

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, relationship issue).
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