Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

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MrMojoRisin
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Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:05 pm

Some time back I took an evening class taught by a local CFP that typically does AUM agreements but does do for fee as well.

I gave him all the investment information and paperwork for my pension plan, which I have yet to draw on.

I told him that upon retirement I wanted to transition all of my spouse's employer funds to Vanguard (Currently with Mass Mutual and NationWide) and to change my AA from 55/45 to 40/60.

In the class he had made mention of an annuity that could be used in place of long term care insurance. Although skeptical I asked him to include the details of that in his work.

We had asked for a couple of scenarios....one retiring in a month or two...the other in about 4 years.

Anyway we met today.

He had not read my pension plan at all. I clearly outlines that if I retire now, @58 I would get about 1700 a month...if retire at 62 I would receive more.
He also did not factor in my wife continuing to make contributions if she worked to 62, he had to add that into the mix.

He did not show me a 40/60 allocation with most everything transferred out of MassMutual and NationWide....like he had never even heard me.

He also did not present anything showing the LTC annuity product, although skeptical I wanted to hear more about it.

I don't think he has had many "Work for Fee" clients....

Not sure I want to continue with him. Nice guy but his presentation was just taking all the numbers I had given him and stuffing them into his software. No real analysis or advice.

michaeljc70
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:22 pm

I take it this was a free consultation? Not particularly defending them, but for a free consultation they are not going to spend countless hours scouring over everything.

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samsoes
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by samsoes » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:22 pm

Via email: thank him for his time, tell him you've decided to do business neither with him nor his firm, and have nothing to do with him again.
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by badbreath » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:58 pm

He has failed at even giving you rough numbers of what you asked so he should not be your adviser . Run from him.
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MrMojoRisin
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:36 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:22 pm
I take it this was a free consultation? Not particularly defending them, but for a free consultation they are not going to spend countless hours scouring over everything.
I hear ya but actually we signed a contract that contains an estimate and a billing rate. Basically all he did was plug our numbers into his RetireUp brand software package. I was hoping for more than that. I think I will ask what we owe at this point and then pay him. I will list the reasons we have decided not to continue the relationship.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:44 pm

I signed the same thing with an adviser back before finding Bogleheads. It was supposed to be a set $1500 and it turned out that he was simply selling a whole life policy. I asked here, went back and cancelled our meeting for me to sign the final papers to buy the WL. We never had any bill and never paid a dime.
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Fallible » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:44 pm

MrMojoRisin wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:36 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:22 pm
I take it this was a free consultation? Not particularly defending them, but for a free consultation they are not going to spend countless hours scouring over everything.
I hear ya but actually we signed a contract that contains an estimate and a billing rate. Basically all he did was plug our numbers into his RetireUp brand software package. I was hoping for more than that. I think I will ask what we owe at this point and then pay him. I will list the reasons we have decided not to continue the relationship.
Is that all the contract states - estimate and billing rate? It doesn't say what you discussed or expected from him?
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Sandtrap
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:16 pm

MrMojoRisin wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:36 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:22 pm
I take it this was a free consultation? Not particularly defending them, but for a free consultation they are not going to spend countless hours scouring over everything.
I hear ya but actually we signed a contract that contains an estimate and a billing rate. Basically all he did was plug our numbers into his RetireUp brand software package. I was hoping for more than that. I think I will ask what we owe at this point and then pay him. I will list the reasons we have decided not to continue the relationship.
You are not obligated to give reasons for discontinuing so that he can counter with reasons not to.
Just thank him for his time and say you need to take a break to think about things and will call him if you require his services in the future.
Pay the bill. Count as an inexpensive lesson. Then log into Bogleheads and do it yourself. :D

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Teague » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:22 pm

From the website of the software you said he used, an article quotes an adviser who uses that program:

"“I can get through that thing in 15 minutes and have a full financial plan, he said."
Semper Augustus

MrMojoRisin
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:58 am

Is that all the contract states - estimate and billing rate? It doesn't say what you discussed or expected from him?
Pretty much. Was not too impressed with it, seemed more like legal boilerplate than a contract for services.
Then log into Bogleheads and do it yourself. :D
Good advice.... I joined this forum when I decided to cut ties with Amerprise. I'm not a financial person by nature but like to think I have a decent understandings of the fundamentals. My background in electrical/machinery automation. What my wife and I are looking for is someone to do a critical review of where we are at, where we want to be and how our financials will work. We have two employer accounts for where my wife works and all my stuff is now with Vanguard. My wife has opened a Vanguard Roth IRA. Our biggest concern is health care insurance. We just can't seem to get a straight answer and with the ever changing situation with ACA we cannot make definite plans.

We plan on traveling a lot (2-3 month out, 1 month at home) in our RV so we need things to kind of run on auto pilot.

There are no For Fee CFP near us. Everyone is AUM. I suspect I am about the first "For Fee" client this man has had.

MrMojoRisin
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:02 am

Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:22 pm
From the website of the software you said he used, an article quotes an adviser who uses that program:

"“I can get through that thing in 15 minutes and have a full financial plan, he said."
Yeah, that was my impression. He loaded all the numbers I gave him, read none of the pension information or delved very deep into our situation. I told him if he had question to email me. Never heard from him. I suspect that since I am not going to be an AUM client he was not too gung ho. One case is my wife is 57 and one the schedule he showed us he had her retiring at 62 but making no further contributions to her employers retirement plan. Basically 3-5 years of not contributions when she is earning a premium wage. My wife had to point that out to him and once we estimated the contributions it made a big difference.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by oldcomputerguy » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 am

MrMojoRisin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:58 am
Good advice.... I joined this forum when I decided to cut ties with Amerprise. I'm not a financial person by nature but like to think I have a decent understandings of the fundamentals.
Welcome to the forum. You'll find many, many people here who are educated and willing to help.
What my wife and I are looking for is someone to do a critical review of where we are at, where we want to be and how our financials will work. We have two employer accounts for where my wife works and all my stuff is now with Vanguard. My wife has opened a Vanguard Roth IRA.
I'd suggest you start by creating a post following the guidelines given here. This will help the folks here give you better suggestions.
Our biggest concern is health care insurance. We just can't seem to get a straight answer and with the ever changing situation with ACA we cannot make definite plans.
Believe me, many, many people feel your pain. Unfortunately at this particular point in time there are no clear answers.
There are no For Fee CFP near us. Everyone is AUM. I suspect I am about the first "For Fee" client this man has had.
In your original post, you mentioned that
In the class he had made mention of an annuity that could be used in place of long term care insurance.
This reminds me of the first (and only) time DW and I sat down with a "financial advisor" to discuss our future. He spent the entire time pushing their annuity product. DW and I left, and in the time it took to reach the car, we had both decided against.

I believe you'll find that "advisors" from financial institutions who offer "retirement seminars" for free are not doing so out of the goodness of their hearts. To be fair, there are those who will help with financial matters because they just want to help (you'll find most of them hanging around here :wink: ), but the guys who work a job for a financial company don't generally fall into that class.
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by dbr » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:40 am

Why do you have to "think" that you will or won't employ this person?

Katietsu
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Katietsu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:12 am

MrMojoRisin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:58 am

We plan on traveling a lot (2-3 month out, 1 month at home) in our RV so we need things to kind of run on auto pilot.

There are no For Fee CFP near us. Everyone is AUM. I suspect I am about the first "For Fee" client this man has had.

I can see value in getting advice on such a transition. You are on the Bogleheads forum, you plan to do a lot of traveling and you have not found an acceptable local option. It seems like you might be an ideal candidate for working remotely with one of the few well regarded planners who have built their practice on the hourly model.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by tibbitts » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:38 am

Katietsu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:12 am
MrMojoRisin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:58 am

We plan on traveling a lot (2-3 month out, 1 month at home) in our RV so we need things to kind of run on auto pilot.

There are no For Fee CFP near us. Everyone is AUM. I suspect I am about the first "For Fee" client this man has had.

I can see value in getting advice on such a transition. You are on the Bogleheads forum, you plan to do a lot of traveling and you have not found an acceptable local option. It seems like you might be an ideal candidate for working remotely with one of the few well regarded planners who have built their practice on the hourly model.
There are lots of locations you're likely to end up with in an RV that have no cell service, and satellite is still extremely expensive, so remote access can be challenging.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Dottie57 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:07 pm

OP,

I signed a contract with a wealth management company for designing a plan. Cost was $500. Before signing, we talked about expectations. Low fees, indexes, insurance (ltc). He understood what I wanted.

He came back with a plan for using proprietary funds from his company at a fairly heavy AUM. His talk was good, his plan terrible for me. I held my ground. I asked why the result was so different than I asked for. You can guess the answer.

Told him thank you, but no thanks. Walked out of the meeting. Learned to not trust CFP.

OP Learn enough that you can make your own plans.

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nedsaid
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by nedsaid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:27 pm

Sometimes these reviews turn out better than expected. A friend of mine was in the insurance business for a few years and I had my insurance business with him. That company did a full review of my retirement investments and I was very pleasantly surprised. Thought I would get the big pitch for whole life insurance and instead what I got were nice retirement projections based on my age, savings rate, and investment returns. I got detailed reports on my investments as well as an X-Ray and efficient frontier produced from Morningstar software. Their number one comment was that I have very little in Small-Cap stocks. I dutifully purchased an S&P 600 Small-Cap Index EFT and that solved that problem.

Broker #4 did reviews a couple of times for my entire portfolio, including investments outside of accounts held with him. He used Morningstar Software too and pretty much he told me to keep doing what I was doing. He noted that the portfolios account by account were "model" portfolios.

My favorite mutual fund company did a similar analysis of my whole portfolio and for the most part was please what they came up with. One time they used financial engines and another time they used Morningstar Software.

The free reviews actually were pretty good. I also used an Ameriprise Advisor to put together more comprehensive financial plans for me which were pretty good but I did get recommendations to use their high cost products. I did not invest with them but learned a lot going over things with their financial advisor.

It was amazing, the free reviews were better than the financial plans that I paid for.

The large mutual fund companies will sometimes provide you with free help. I believe Fidelity and T. Rowe Price will provide free guidance, not sure about Vanguard. I am also a fan of using Target Risk and Target Date funds as a template to model your own portfolio after.
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:22 pm

Some helpful links:
Bogle Philosophy
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehe ... philosophy
Here are links to the wiki's "Getting Started" and "Investing Startup Kit" pages:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehe ... art-up_kit
Define General Investment Goals and Objectives
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Invest ... _statement
Suggested Reading List
https://www.bogleheads.org/RecommendedReading.php
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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212

MrMojoRisin
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:36 pm

dbr wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:40 am
Why do you have to "think" that you will or won't employ this person?
I tend to contemplate too much. I won't be using this guy.

MrMojoRisin
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:41 pm

It seems like you might be an ideal candidate for working remotely with one of the few well regarded planners who have built their practice on the hourly model.
...and they would be?

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Mel Lindauer » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:55 pm

MrMojoRisin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:58 am
Is that all the contract states - estimate and billing rate? It doesn't say what you discussed or expected from him?
Pretty much. Was not too impressed with it, seemed more like legal boilerplate than a contract for services.
Then log into Bogleheads and do it yourself. :D
Good advice.... I joined this forum when I decided to cut ties with Amerprise. I'm not a financial person by nature but like to think I have a decent understandings of the fundamentals. My background in electrical/machinery automation. What my wife and I are looking for is someone to do a critical review of where we are at, where we want to be and how our financials will work. We have two employer accounts for where my wife works and all my stuff is now with Vanguard. My wife has opened a Vanguard Roth IRA. Our biggest concern is health care insurance. We just can't seem to get a straight answer and with the ever changing situation with ACA we cannot make definite plans.

We plan on traveling a lot (2-3 month out, 1 month at home) in our RV so we need things to kind of run on auto pilot.

There are no For Fee CFP near us. Everyone is AUM. I suspect I am about the first "For Fee" client this man has had.
You might check out Boglehead author, columnist and fee-only financial advisor, Allan Roth. AFAIK, he deals with clients from all over the country.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:13 am

Dottie57 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:07 pm
I signed a contract with a wealth management company for designing a plan. Cost was $500. Before signing, we talked about expectations. Low fees, indexes, insurance (ltc). He understood what I wanted.

He came back with a plan for using proprietary funds from his company at a fairly heavy AUM. His talk was good, his plan terrible for me. I held my ground. I asked why the result was so different than I asked for. You can guess the answer.

Told him thank you, but no thanks. Walked out of the meeting. Learned to not trust CFP.
I am curious - did you pay him the $500 for the plan that wasn't what you "ordered"? Sounds to me like you went to a restaurant, ordered a steak, explained how you wanted it cooked, and got a pork chop instead.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by tfb » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:22 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:07 pm
Told him thank you, but no thanks. Walked out of the meeting. Learned to not trust CFP.
Your experience and the OP's experience just showed not all CFPs are created equal. I learned the best bet are CFPs who don't manage money. They are truly in it for giving advice.
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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Alexa9 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:52 pm

tfb wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:22 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:07 pm
Told him thank you, but no thanks. Walked out of the meeting. Learned to not trust CFP.
Your experience and the OP's experience just showed not all CFPs are created equal. I learned the best bet are CFPs who don't manage money. They are truly in it for giving advice.
Not all CFP's are equal. There are good and bad in every profession. The ones that charge by the hour are generally better. AUM and insurance salesmen are generally the worst. If you have a difficult scenario, they can be helpful. Although you can usually get pretty good free advice here as well.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:08 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:13 am
Dottie57 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:07 pm
I signed a contract with a wealth management company for designing a plan. Cost was $500. Before signing, we talked about expectations. Low fees, indexes, insurance (ltc). He understood what I wanted.

He came back with a plan for using proprietary funds from his company at a fairly heavy AUM. His talk was good, his plan terrible for me. I held my ground. I asked why the result was so different than I asked for. You can guess the answer.

Told him thank you, but no thanks. Walked out of the meeting. Learned to not trust CFP.
I am curious - did you pay him the $500 for the plan that wasn't what you "ordered"? Sounds to me like you went to a restaurant, ordered a steak, explained how you wanted it cooked, and got a pork chop instead.
Yes I did. Payment due before the plan. Well regarded by a couple I know and respect. I wanted. low cost well regarded funds. We did not talk about fees to advisor past a plan. My 401k was fine. IRA was in a mess of funds, which I really wanted hekp with.

My cousin is a CFP and she spent about 4 hours -trying to convey what I should look forin a plan and advisor. It was interesting information. Unfortunately she didn't want family as customers. So I went to the wealth mgmt co. Mistake I will never make again.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by cherijoh » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:32 pm

MrMojoRisin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:02 am
Teague wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:22 pm
From the website of the software you said he used, an article quotes an adviser who uses that program:

"“I can get through that thing in 15 minutes and have a full financial plan, he said."
Yeah, that was my impression. He loaded all the numbers I gave him, read none of the pension information or delved very deep into our situation. I told him if he had question to email me. Never heard from him. I suspect that since I am not going to be an AUM client he was not too gung ho. One case is my wife is 57 and one the schedule he showed us he had her retiring at 62 but making no further contributions to her employers retirement plan. Basically 3-5 years of not contributions when she is earning a premium wage. My wife had to point that out to him and once we estimated the contributions it made a big difference.
I think you would find many CFP will rely on planning software, but this guy appears to be lazy and with poor attention to detail. He sounds more like a salesperson who got the CFP designation so he could add some in initials to his business card. I wouldn't have any further dealings with him.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by Mispoken » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:12 pm

This is a good thread for me. I'm considering hiring a fee only CFP simply because I have so many possible scenarios to choose from. The tax implications of the various scenarios turn my brain into a knot. I've found a CFP/EA husband/wife combo that I'm going to test out to see if they can accept my money to help me work through these scenarios without trying to get me to buy something other than their time. We will see! I can also do this with a person via e-mail and phone, so if you folks know anyone that fits this bill I'd be interested in checking out your referral.

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by obgraham » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:10 pm

I'm actually married to a CPA who took out CFP credentials, and I have a couple of friends with CFP's. Though I wouldn't say it to their face (especially the spouse!), I'm just not that impressed with the program, much of which is online learning stuff.

In my experience they get hooked into some sort of computer planning system -- "at this age do this, and that age do that" which is essentially what we Bogleheads do by going to Vanguard. There's little original thinking involved, or else it is all about convincing the client to get into whatever investment vehicle rewards the CFP the best. Without much risk, we can all do that job ourselves.

For a plan with an AUM fee, say 1.5% (typical), and a suggested ideal retirement withdrawal of 4-5%, why give up a third of your annual income to a planner who isn't really doing anything for you?

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:43 am

UPDATE:

After reading Mel Lindauer's post I went to Allan S. Roth's website. I'm am now pulling together data needed so they can review our situation and tell us what they may be able to do for us.

I thank every one for their input.

Best wishes

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Re: Met with a CFP, not too impressed.

Post by MrMojoRisin » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:35 pm

I went by the CFP office today and picked up my report and settled our account.

I was presented with a print out from Retireup.
It's 48 pages printed landscape on both sides with a staple in the upper left corner. A very nice staple, but still just a staple none the less.
I had hoped at least to have it printed single sided and in a ring binder so I could flip through it easily.

I had had asked him to figure out how to invest our accounts with the various financial institutions involved so as to best achieve a 40/60 AA. That was not done. The AA shown is the current 57/43 that we set up.

I had asked him to present the Long Term Care annuity option. I am skeptical of it but no reference to it is made in the report.

Although he had the pension plan paperwork in his hand and the paperwork shows the different benefits I get based on age he has my pension income being the same regardless of when I retire. Major complication with that.

So he charged me six hours of labor at $225.00 an hour....I'm now about $1350.00 wiser. 2.5 hours of meeting time, the rest working his magic with his software.

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