[Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

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Fess McGee
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[Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Fess McGee » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:27 pm

But is anyone willing to explain to me the basic distinction between a Boglehead and a Mr. Money Mustachian? My most recent look at MMM yielded threads discussing taking cold showers, making homemade deodorant and re-using bath water, all in the name of saving money.

I know Bogleheads like to save money too but I personally have limits on what I'm willing to do to save money. Not trying to offend anyone here but is anyone willing to take a stab at this? I'm genuinely curious.

[thread retitled for clarity - moderator prudent]

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hand
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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by hand » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:33 pm

Bogleheads use a rational approach to investment with a heavy focus on reducing non-value added fees and optimizing risk (not taking unneeded risk).
(see the Wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehe ... philosophy)


MMMers maximize savings by reducing consumption.

There appears to be a healthy overlap between the two camps, but in my mind the two are really quite separate. If anything, I would expect Bogleheads to want to optimize consumption rather than simply reduce consumption.

Steve723
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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by Steve723 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:37 pm

Fess McGee wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:27 pm
But is anyone willing to explain to me the basic distinction between a Boglehead and a Mr. Money Mustachian? My most recent look at MMM yielded threads discussing taking cold showers, making homemade deodorant and re-using bath water, all in the name of saving money.

I know Bogleheads like to save money too but I personally have limits on what I'm willing to do to save money. Not trying to offend anyone here but is anyone willing to take a stab at this? I'm genuinely curious.
I think there is quite a lot of overlap between the two. Both philosophies, for lack of a better word, promote living below your means and low cost investing. MMM puts a big focus on the LBYM part while Bogleheads seems to put a lot more emphasis on the investing side of things. If you truly have spent time on both sites, I don't think it would take you too long to see the differences for yourself and come up with your own distinctions.

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CAsage
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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by CAsage » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:39 pm

Suggestion: You will get much better responses with a specific, focused title like: "Difference between a Boglehead and Mr. Money Mustache?". Your title sounds way too.... vague.
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.

cutterinnj
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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by cutterinnj » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:45 pm

Bogleheads: Folks who wish to optimize their financial portfolios by removing waste

MMM: Hippies who also follow Bogle.

adamthesmythe
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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by adamthesmythe » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:47 pm

How about
cutterinnj wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:45 pm
Bogleheads: Folks who wish to optimize their financial portfolios by removing waste
in order to accumulate enough $ for the fun stuff.

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monkey_business
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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by monkey_business » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:49 pm

There is a lot of general overlap but MMM is more the 40 year old that retires on a very modest budget, whereas the Boglehead is the 60 year old that retires very comfortably. The two communities have a different tilt in terms of overall goals and lifestyle.

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sunny_socal
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by sunny_socal » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:57 pm

At least you didn't start a Dave Ramsey thread, then you'd really get a black eye! :wink:

I don't think most BHs are as Spartan as MMM types. Time Is Money around here.
- It's ok to have a car, especially if increases your productivity. Brand new cars generate discussion :D
- It's ok to have a hot shower, especially if it helps you get along with colleagues
- A cup of coffee is an acceptable splurge, life isn't much fun if it's _only_ about money
- Riding a bike is great, it also helps with your health - but a car sure is handy!

I think BH is one of the best "middle ground" discussion sites on the web! People here tend to be civil and have a ton of common sense, the mods do a great job of keeping discussions focused, the financial advice here is excellent.

I have a close family member who could be mistaken for an MMM type but I think he's miserable. Heats his dwelling with candles, doesn't dare run the AC, won't answer the phone since it costs him minutes/$$. He's definitely LBYM so at least there's that :|

david
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by david » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:03 pm

The MMM philosophy is basically live below your means to such a degree as to enable not only the ability to retire but to retire early (some would say extremely early).

Bogleheads believe in the value of living below your means but are not as concerned (as a group) about early retirement.

MMM has/is also a philosophy about living life, that Bogleheads really doesn't touch upon (as a group). This includes low/no car usage, environmentalism, DIYing (do it yourself), and building personal skills to DIY all in an effort to increase overall life satisfaction by removing oneself from the typical consumer mindset (both in purchasing and the value of purchasing).

The bogleheads, at least as expressed on these message boards, have a pretty wide set of values about what makes people happy. Having fancy things is seen as a well deserved reward assuming you can afford it and it does not alter your long-term priorities or would set you up for failure should an emergency hit. Whereas MMM would see valuing attempting to achieve owning luxury goods as a vice that you should strive to overcome (through badassity). MMM sees the luxury in even a minimalist standard of living in the modern world and tries to put that in perspective because people learn to expect what they are used to including what seem like luxuries due to, e.g., the hedonic treadmill.

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FrugalProfessor
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by FrugalProfessor » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:13 pm

MMM: Younger demographic. Less rich. Discussions about cell phone plans + DIY home & car repairs.

BH: Older demographic. Much richer (I'm amazed at the abundance of multi millionaires here). Discussions about tax optimization and index investing.

Similarities: Both think critically about problems then optimize. Both value thrift, education, & entrepreneurship.

I don't venture on the MMM forums, but I do like MMM's blog quite a bit. I consider myself a hybrid MMM/BH (MMM: I really like bikes, applaud extreme frugality, etc. BH: Lowest hanging fruit is minimizing taxes & investment expenses).
I blog. My effective (not to be confused with statutory) MTR is 45% (fed + state, excluding payroll). I save $30k/year in taxes by maxing out deferrals. Taxes are the lowest hanging source of alpha.

goingup
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by goingup » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:14 pm

BH philosophy is about investing:
The Bogleheads® Philosophy
*Develop a workable plan
*Invest early and often
*Never bear too much or too little risk
*Never try to time the market
*Use index funds when possible
*Keep costs low
*Diversify
*Minimize taxes
*Keep it simple
*Stay the course

(I have no idea what MMM is about.)

furikake
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by furikake » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:39 pm

This is just my opinion, from my observation...

I think bogleheads is more realistic, whereas MMM followers truly believe that 4% is the SWR regardless of how young you are. If you retire in your 40's or later, you're retiring late. Retiring to them can mean that they still work but they call it retirement just because they believe they're retired. They don't like people having their own opinion, it's either their way or the highway.

I read MMM forum sometimes just for entertainment, I don't think their opinion can be taken seriously especially when they want to insist that you're wrong but you know you're right because it's the law that cannot be changed unless Congress changes it.

BH people are more realistic, more matured, whereas the MMM followers are more unrealistic and childish.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:48 pm

I enjoy MMM, rootofgood, 1500days. There is definitely overlap. All the ideas join up to form some strategy that works for YOU. You are the only one that really matters.

If you use the Boglehead principles to protect and grow your investments and keep your spending low, you can do what you want. Save a bunch, get out as soon as you can. Spend your time wisely and your money more wisely.

Some reading sticks, others I just pass by. Picking out the fringe elements will always come off as a bit different. That is ok. I just like the different ideas.

If you could design your life, would you design it where you work and sleep 75% of the time? I wouldn't. Yet here we are. :oops:
"We are here not to please but to provoke thoughtfulness" Unknown Boglehead

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by sschullo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm

Not much different at all.
My goodness, MMM single-handedly writes about the most boring subject of all time, frugal living and a healthy philosophy (creating a low cost indexed and diversified portfolio is almost as boring, for most people).

When people cut back on their spending, then they can come here and find out how to invest. MMM talks about low-cost index investing too, but his brilliant ideas about cutting back expenses make him one of the top bloggers of all time, IMO.

His writing is absolutely compelling and for a single guy attracting 12 million views in the 8 years that he has been blogging, he must be doing something right. Tapping into the fantasy of so many 20-30 something who want to retire early didn't hurt him as well--as a 30-something with a wife and youngster, he lives it when he retired from working at a full-time job at 30. Nothing wrong with the "fantasy" of cutting back spending!

AND ONE MORE THING: HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY ADS ON HIS WEBSITE, just like here!!!!!!
Last edited by sschullo on Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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mhalley
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by mhalley » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:58 pm

I would say bogleheads desire to live a “normal” lifestyle, ie, car, own their own home, desire to live a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle, expect to retire a Little early (say 50-60) with a very substantial nest egg. Savings rate in the 15-30% range. Mustachians live extremely modest lifestyle with substantial savings rate 50% or more, extreme early retirement 40 or earlier, modest nest egg to support modest lifestyle, lots of diy to decrease expenses. Perhaps will move to very locol area in retirement.
Of course being one does not rule out being the other.

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climber2020
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by climber2020 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:02 pm

furikake wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:39 pm


BH people are more realistic, more matured, whereas the MMM followers are more unrealistic and childish.
I agree. I like MMM himself, but many of his followers strike me as gullible simpletons who regurgitate MMM's buzzwords whenever a dissenting opinion is presented.
sschullo wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm
His writing is absolutely compelling and for a single guy attracting 12 million views in the 8 years that he has been blogging, he must be doing something right.
He is a fantastic writer. I think he could have made his blog about a number of other topics and it still would have done well due to his talent with the written word.

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Re: Hope I'm not unwittingly wading into anything here...

Post by sailaway » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:25 pm

cutterinnj wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:45 pm
Bogleheads: Folks who wish to optimize their financial portfolios by removing waste

MMM: Hippies who also follow Bogle.
Bwaaahaaa I love this one.

I use my own family.

My parents are frugal, but know nothing about investing and keep their IRAs in CDs. They rode blue collar jobs to a reasonable retirement in a small home. They are neither bogles, MMMs, nor normal.

My in laws have a beautiful home in an upper class neighborhood, buy new cars and keep them at least a decade, and are so interested in retirement savings that my SO has had a through grounding in saving and investing since before he had his first job. When I read these forums, they often seem to be on the frugal end of things, but I can clearly see their values reflected here.

We live in a tiny home, drive small cars, spend less than we pay in taxes, DIY most things, and plan on retiring when our average age is less than 40. We were MMM before we ever heard of it.

Our choices, and especially our planned early retirement, are not only baffling to the in laws, but even considered morally questionable (ie, see above posters who view MMM followers as childish and unrealistic). That is the big difference I have observed: MMM is focused on a well funded drop out and will judge you for spending money and not being environmentally aware; bogleheads tends to be more Calvinistic, more likely to assign intrinsic value to work and accumulation, and will judge you for for choosing a lower middle class lifestyle when you could afford more by working longer.

Or: At boglegeads, washing out ziplocs is ridiculous. At MMM, washing out ziplocs is a debate about balancing time and environmental concerns. Insisting on washing out ziplocs as a cost saving feature falls under Early Retirement Extreme.

supersecretname
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by supersecretname » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:26 pm

climber2020 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:02 pm
furikake wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:39 pm


BH people are more realistic, more matured, whereas the MMM followers are more unrealistic and childish.
I agree. I like MMM himself, but many of his followers strike me as gullible simpletons who regurgitate MMM's buzzwords whenever a dissenting opinion is presented.
wow, judgmental much?

A lot of people don't get MMM and feel threatened. It's not for everyone. But, if you do, and you realize you don't have to be an economic serf your whole life, it's incredibly liberating.
mhalley wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:58 pm
I would say bogleheads desire to live a “normal” lifestyle, ie, car, own their own home, desire to live a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle, expect to retire a Little early (say 50-60) with a very substantial nest egg. Savings rate in the 15-30% range. Mustachians live extremely modest lifestyle with substantial savings rate 50% or more, extreme early retirement 40 or earlier, modest nest egg to support modest lifestyle, lots of diy to decrease expenses. Perhaps will move to very lcol area in retirement.
Of course being one does not rule out being the other.
this. My savings rate is 50%, and if all goes to plan, will retire with a mil in the bank at 41.

bogleheads don't focus much on expenses. MMM does.

freebeer
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by freebeer » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:39 pm

supersecretname wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:26 pm
... if you do, and you realize you don't have to be an economic serf your whole life, it's incredibly liberating.
This. MMM (and followers) seem to consider traditional employment, i.e. having a job, to be "economic serfdom". And for those who hate or at least don't particularly like their jobs, the idea of financial independence is, naturally, liberating. But for those who love or at least like their work and feeling a calling to do it, this is kind of weird and IMHO it's bad advice to nudge folks to withdraw from economically efficient contributions to society towards what is basically the modern equivalent of smallholder subsistence. If you are a doctor, teacher, skilled mechanic, or whatever - and LOVE it - then why should you prioritize engaging in ultra frugality (like using one bath towel, without washing it for weeks) and extreme DIY (at the expense of time pursuing your chosen profession), just in order to have enough assets to not have to do the work you love?

OTOH the corresponding tragic flaw of Bogleheads seems to be passivity as the order of the day. People here tend to be punching the clock en route to a delayed (until uber safe) affluent retirement. You will see little on this forum about entrepreneurship and individual initiative. Much more of that on MMM mainly because MMM himself is very entrepreneurial.

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ClevrChico
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by ClevrChico » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:41 pm

Bogleheads doesn't seem to accept advertising/promotion embedded in the content. :-)

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climber2020
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by climber2020 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:50 pm

supersecretname wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:26 pm

wow, judgmental much?

A lot of people don't get MMM and feel threatened. It's not for everyone. But, if you do, and you realize you don't have to be an economic serf your whole life, it's incredibly liberating.

You misunderstand. I like MMM. I appreciate his life philosophy, and my own life philosophy is very similar to his. Even before I knew who he was, I was saving about 65% of my take home pay with minimal effort and well on my way to early financial independence.

What I don't like are many of the people who post in his forums.

Someone comes along and asks an interesting question that challenges MMM? That person is labeled a "complainypants" by his brainless followers. No thoughtful retort, no discussion. Complainypants.

Maybe it's changed recently, but this is the reason why I stopped reading his forums section. I still enjoy reading his occasional blog posts, but too many of his followers are annoying rubes who parrot MMM's catch-phrases anytime they are intellectually challenged.
Last edited by climber2020 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Curlyq
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Curlyq » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:57 pm

MMM's earlier blog posts challenged readers to realize where they were on the hedonic treadmill and gave them ideas to get off of it. Now that MMM has made a lot of money off of the blog (through advertising, if I'm not mistaken), his posts now tend to explain why he's spending more money or acquiring more things. For example, he and his family moved into a smaller home, but then he built a huge outbuilding in the back for all of his stuff and it also includes a gym. Not the original MMM philosophy, for sure.

avalpert
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:07 pm

supersecretname wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:26 pm
climber2020 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:02 pm
furikake wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:39 pm


BH people are more realistic, more matured, whereas the MMM followers are more unrealistic and childish.
I agree. I like MMM himself, but many of his followers strike me as gullible simpletons who regurgitate MMM's buzzwords whenever a dissenting opinion is presented.
wow, judgmental much?

A lot of people don't get MMM and feel threatened. It's not for everyone. But, if you do, and you realize you don't have to be an economic serf your whole life, it's incredibly liberating.
You realize your response pretty much validates the 'judgemental' post you responded to, right?

I don't find MMM or his followers threatening in any way, I think people who equate washing out ziploc bags with not being an economic serf to be amusing (at least in small doses), clearly a bit delusional, but certainly not threatening.
Last edited by avalpert on Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MiddleOfTheRoad
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by MiddleOfTheRoad » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:11 pm

ClevrChico wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:41 pm
Bogleheads doesn't seem to accept advertising/promotion embedded in the content. :-)
Bwahahaha :sharebeer

stan1
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by stan1 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:20 pm

Bogleheads:
Can't retire if you have less than $5M because you need to spend $100K/year and you might end up in a Alzheimer's care unit for more than 10 years.

MMM:
Tell everyone you retired early but start secret businesses repairing/flipping houses and selling soap on etsy.

ThatGuy
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by ThatGuy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:59 pm

stan1 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:20 pm
Bogleheads:
Can't retire if you have less than $5M because you need to spend $100K/year and you might end up in a Alzheimer's care unit for more than 10 years.

MMM:
Tell everyone you retired early but start secret businesses repairing/flipping houses and selling soap on etsy.
Well done sir, you have succinctly captured the essence of both.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde

supersecretname
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by supersecretname » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:00 pm

avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:07 pm
I think people who equate washing out ziploc bags with not being an economic serf to be amusing (at least in small doses), clearly a bit delusional, but certainly not threatening.
MMM has never advocated for washing ziploc bags or only have one communal bath towel. Those are straw man arguments and need to be called out as such.

The true point of MMM (if I may be so bold) is for people to realize they have a choice, where they did not think they did. You have a choice as to your expenses (mostly), a choice for method of transportation (car vs bike), a choice where to live, a choice what to do with your free time.

Another way to define a job is that you are trading your life hours (a finite resource, with a guaranteed terminal ending), for money (a renewable resource). As one gets further along in life, and your future life hours decrease, it should cost more and more money for you to give up your life hour for something you don't want to do. (Not talking about people who love their job. Most people don't). That shiny new car doesn't just cost money, it costs hours of your life that you can't get back.

MMM helps people realize that you are not required to work to 65 in a job you don't love. There is another way.

avalpert
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by avalpert » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:12 pm

supersecretname wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:00 pm
avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:07 pm
I think people who equate washing out ziploc bags with not being an economic serf to be amusing (at least in small doses), clearly a bit delusional, but certainly not threatening.
MMM has never advocated for washing ziploc bags or only have one communal bath towel. Those are straw man arguments and need to be called out as such.
We weren't talking about what he has advocated but what his followers have in his name (and with maybe with some artistic license).
The true point of MMM (if I may be so bold) is for people to realize they have a choice, where they did not think they did.
Except most people I know are quite aware they have a choice and are perfectly fine with the ones they have made - they wouldn't make the consumption choices of MMM (and not come near the silliness of his forum-dwellers) and they are okay with that.

But the true point here, and the one you continue to demonstrate, is that MMM has nurtured a holier-than-thou attitude among his following about the choices they happen to make. Choices that aren't the norm not because the rest of us are 'economic serfs' or the following has found some secret enlightenment but because they are outside the normal range of preferences of most people.

And that is fine, you are free to turn on, tune in and drop out if that is you preference. You are even free to think this is the first time disillusioned 20 and 30 year olds came to that realization and made that choice - and you are even free to believe that you won't change your mind in 15-20 years and regret not having a higher material standard of living.

But, while free to believe it, you shouldn't really expect for others to give you much credence and you should expect them to roll their eyes when you act as though you are the enlightened one and earnestly will help them see the light.

Curlyq
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Curlyq » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:18 pm

avalpert wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:12 pm
the following has found some secret enlightenment
There's some mary-ja-wanna smoking culture in the MMM immediate community, at least that's what MMM's blog mentions now and again. This might be the enlightenment source.

MiddleOfTheRoad
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by MiddleOfTheRoad » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:27 pm

BH
Ok with spending money as long as it is below one’s mean and represent good value for the dollar (even if it means spending a lot in absolute terms). Whether you have/make a lot or a little you can live below your mean and invest the rest. Can be applied to the whole spectrum of demographics.

MMM
You basically live as cheap as possible and invest the rest. Not for most people.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by DavidRoseMountain » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:31 pm

I would say the biggest difference between the sites is that the forums on MMM are better organized into various compartments such as investing, taxation, journals, off-topic, and a whole host of other categories. In this way it feels like it's easier to navigate MMM forums. The Journals for example are individuals who are sharing their personal experiences of navigating a more frugal and healthful lifestyle to gain financial independence. These journals and threads in the forums on MMM have resulted in a deep sense of community.
Bogleheads always seemed like an odd forum site since so many different topics are grouped together such as under "Personal Finance (Not Investing)".
So initially I found it easier to use MMM forums and was first inspired to do so by the well-written blog.

After being on MMM forums for awhile there would be references to wikis on Bogleheads and I took another visit to the Boglehead forums and have gained a better appreciation for this site.
For example, I've received incredible help from Spirit rider and I think maybe Harry Sit on a tax issue, and I am very grateful for it.

Both MMM and Bogleheads have some incredibly talented writers on the forums with deep expertise and it behooves everyone to be able to take advantage of the benefit of this help.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Whakamole » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:37 pm

sschullo wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm
AND ONE MORE THING: HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY ADS ON HIS WEBSITE, just like here!!!!!!
MMM makes significant revenue from his referral links, including products and services he endorses like Lending Club and Betterment; well into the six figures per year. viewtopic.php?t=198698 has a discussion. I would consider those advertisements, regardless of whether the products are being pushed because he likes them and can make money on the side, or because there is no money in referral links to Vanguard.
If you are a doctor, teacher, skilled mechanic, or whatever - and LOVE it - then why should you prioritize engaging in ultra frugality (like using one bath towel, without washing it for weeks)
There is an old Dilbert cartoon where Wally points out that since he is always clean when he uses his bath towel, it must never get dirty and therefore never needs washing.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by beehappy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:43 pm

I would think that one would benefit tremendously from adopting from each approach. There're probably a number of young Bogleheads spending too much time finetuning asset allocation on small investments balances when they should be more focused on cutting their spending and increasing their savings rate. Likewise, there could be MMMs with large reserves preoccupied with saving an extra 25 cents on ziplocs when they should be spending more time reducing investment fees and minimizing their taxes. To me, these forums are 2 sides of the same coin.

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FiveK
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by FiveK » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:47 pm

As with many religious wars, there are probably more similarities than differences, yet the hard core on both sides believe strongly that "we" are better than "them".

The "go to" posts for getting advice from each site, Asking Portfolio Questions - Bogleheads.org and How To: Write a "Case Study" Topic do slant differently: BH toward investments and MMM toward cash flow.

Personally, I think a combination of those two posts would be useful for each site: for BH it would be helpful to know income rather than the wide ranging and often incorrect "tax bracket", while for MMM it would be helpful to know more about current investments.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by sambb » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:11 pm

BH: drive 1999 camry
MMM: dont drive, bike
Me: make enough money to buy a nice european sports car and forget about camrys and bikes

That being said, saving (MMM) is far more important than expense ratios.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by reisner » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:31 pm

MMM seems to have a pang of guilt about doing anything fun that might cost a spare buck. Granted, the other guys are trying to get our money, but they have to live too. And sometimes the fun, convenience, or pleasure is worth handing over the shekels. MMM focuses on when it's not, which is nearly always in his book. I have enough money now not to let a number of necessary expenses or mildly expensive mistakes bother me. Nature is wasteful. Even the Native Americans wasted some, contrary to legend. MMM can't get over that.

On the other hand, his promulgation of frugality is mostly a good thing, good for the planet, and good for our souls.

There must be a number of threads on this forum about what you would do with a huge uptick in income (such as MMM has experienced thanks to his highly profitable website). I wouldn't change much, except I'd live in a smaller house. Explanation: in Coastal California and many other desirable parts of the country to live, it is hard to buy small without buying crap. I'd spend what it takes per square foot to have a beautiful house of 1000 to 1400 square feet. Which by the way is much smaller than MMM's current abode.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by bottlecap » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:36 pm

MM = skimp on everything so you don’t have to work hard or at all.

Bogleheads = work hard and LBYM, so you don't have to skimp on everything.

Or make your own soap.

JT

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by sarahjane » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:03 pm

MMM is having an identity crisis. In spite of rejecting the material world, his blog is so successful, he's become a rich man, whether he chooses it or not. So his blog has lost relevance for most bgleheads.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:35 am

sschullo wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm
Not much different at all.
My goodness, MMM single-handedly writes about the most boring subject of all time, frugal living and a healthy philosophy (creating a low cost indexed and diversified portfolio is almost as boring, for most people).

When people cut back on their spending, then they can come here and find out how to invest. MMM talks about low-cost index investing too, but his brilliant ideas about cutting back expenses make him one of the top bloggers of all time, IMO.

His writing is absolutely compelling and for a single guy attracting 12 million views in the 8 years that he has been blogging, he must be doing something right. Tapping into the fantasy of so many 20-30 something who want to retire early didn't hurt him as well--as a 30-something with a wife and youngster, he lives it when he retired from working at a full-time job at 30. Nothing wrong with the "fantasy" of cutting back spending!

AND ONE MORE THING: HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY ADS ON HIS WEBSITE, just like here!!!!!!
Seems odd for him to make $400K a year from the site without any ads doesn't it? These don't count?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/mmm-recommends/
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

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FiveK
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by FiveK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:44 am

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:35 am
sschullo wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm
AND ONE MORE THING: HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY ADS ON HIS WEBSITE, just like here!!!!!!
Seems odd for him to make $400K a year from the site without any ads doesn't it? These don't count?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/mmm-recommends/
There are ads at the bottom of the page in both the blog and the forum. Not obnoxious but they exist.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:48 am

FiveK wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:44 am
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:35 am
sschullo wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm
AND ONE MORE THING: HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY ADS ON HIS WEBSITE, just like here!!!!!!
Seems odd for him to make $400K a year from the site without any ads doesn't it? These don't count?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/mmm-recommends/
There are ads at the bottom of the page in both the blog and the forum. Not obnoxious but they exist.
Right. I don't have a problem with them, but let's not pretend he's running a non-profit over there. Those who own/run this site have chosen to give up a 7-8 figure income that could be put to any sort of use they like in order to avoid the appearance of bias by running ads. Neither MMM nor myself have made the same decision. To each their own. Good things can be accomplished by both for-profit and non-profit organizations.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Ron Scott » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:09 am

A minority of BHers and a majority of MMMers don’t enjoy working for a living. In MMMville, the social zeitgeist is peaceful unemployment.

Seems to me the MMMers could put more effort into finding a calling, finding their muse, so they can be happier while making a contribution to something bigger than themselves.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Taz » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:28 am

I've periodically browsed MMM. Apparently sprinkling F-bombs around is a mark of one's writing ability and commitment to the cause. I appreciate that Bogleheads (or at least the moderators & software) are able to find other words to more precisely communicate their thoughts.

I will say that the MMM crowd gets a bit more excited when they cut their cable TV than when we convince someone to leave Raymond James. Different conversion experience -- charismatic vs. chosen frozen I guess.
The destination matters.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by njdealguy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:46 am

Recently read a case study thread on MMM from someone who is 33 years old, with 400k+ per year income and investment savings of nearly 2MM (definitely on path to FI if not already), and a paid off 350k house, and yet was bashed by other members for spending close to $500 per month between himself and wife on food ($200 in restaurants and $300 in groceries). Already saves 60% of income and yet thats not good enough for other readers there.

Theres like zero tolerance for any discretionary spending and everyone is supposed to live like college students regardless of income just so can retire earlier and continue to not be able to afford ever a Hawaii vacation!

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teen persuasion
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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by teen persuasion » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:03 am

Mustachians have as a basic tenet that you can reach the point of "enough". Quit playing the game, you've won - you are free to do whatever you like now. Being flexible with plans and contingencies can lower the bar to reaching "enough".

Bogleheads feel that "enough" is a minimum, but more is better. Freedom isn't worth having less stuff, or at least isn't worth the risk that enough may not really be enough long term.


That said, many Mustachians are also on Bogleheads for financial information. In that way, the Bogleheads forum feels more one dimensional compared to the MMM forum. The restrictions against political threads and speculation on future changes to X on Bogleheads are in strong contrast to long running speculation/discussion threads and lively political topics. Non-confrontational vs bad-assity/face-punches.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:29 am

MMM: Early retire at 35 and then live on $25k a year.
BH: Early retire when investments reach 50 X spending and live on 2% of savings.

Both share the live below your means and low cost investment philosophy. Both appear to be enamored with Elon Musk and give a pass on buying a silly $125 car when a $20k 5 year old is250 could do the job.

I'm very happy with the money saving and money making tips I get from both. I make small amount of money on low balance forgiveness credit cards and a little more on Tradelines sold. I'll bring Doctor of Credit into the picture as well since I do churn credit cards for bonuses. As Mark Knopfler sings.....money for nothin'. I'll leave out the second line as it doesn't apply to me. :D
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:33 am

bottlecap wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:36 pm
MM = skimp on everything so you don’t have to work hard or at all.

Bogleheads = work hard and LBYM, so you don't have to skimp on everything.

Or make your own soap.

JT
This is a good summary in my opinion. MMM talks about living like a pauper for many years so you can not have to work (but be prepared to continue to live like a pauper). Many Bogleheads don't mind working productive jobs throughout prime career years so they can still enjoy life, enjoy giving to charity, and prepare for their and their children's futures while living-below-their-means.
I don't agree with one poster that said their is little difference - there is a big difference from all the threads/discussions/philosophies here versus there. People on Bogleheads do sometimes buy $125K cars or $5K watches provided that they are living-below-their-means and maxing out tax-advantaged savings. On MMM this would be unheard of.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by alfaspider » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:25 am

The comments above express the difference well. Both communities are about planning for FI, but the MMM community focuses on doing it through extreme economy rather than having a large amount of savings. Perhaps I will make it to 40 and decide I'm done with working life- then I will need to go full MMM if I want to retire. But looking ahead now, I'd rather retire in my 50s and not have to think about every penny.

I kind of wonder what MMM is going to do with all his money. The living on $25k a year thing made perfect sense when he retired with next to nothing (by BH standareds) saved. Now, he's making more than he did when he "retired." Is he going to continue living like a pauper and die with a huge estate, or does he have plans? Perhaps it was addressed on the site, but I haven't seen anything.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by avalpert » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:54 am

teen persuasion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:03 am
In that way, the Bogleheads forum feels more one dimensional compared to the MMM forum. The restrictions against political threads and speculation on future changes to X on Bogleheads are in strong contrast to long running speculation/discussion threads and lively political topics. Non-confrontational vs bad-assity/face-punches.
I think this captures the real difference. 'Bogleheads' isn't an overarching philosophy on life, it is a framework for how to approach investing for long-term investors. MMM is very explicitly trying to create a life philosophy (following, cult, religion, whatever word you want to use) and with that it must cover a much wider range of activities, construct dogmatic rules on that range and instill broad conformity in its followers to stick to that dogma - with argument rarely being the effective means to enforce dogma you are left with catch phrases and virtual violence.

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Re: [Boglehead vs Mr Money Mustache philosophies]

Post by sailaway » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:26 am

Ron Scott wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:09 am
A minority of BHers and a majority of MMMers don’t enjoy working for a living. In MMMville, the social zeitgeist is peaceful unemployment.

Seems to me the MMMers could put more effort into finding a calling, finding their muse, so they can be happier while making a contribution to something bigger than themselves.
I have way more time to make a contribution to something bigger than myself without a full time job. My husband has a hard time seeing how making your smartphone better is substantially benefitting this world.

My "pauper" lifestyle is roughly median US income. Unlike so many posters both here and at MMM, I understand that not everyone shares my priorities. Sure, I make fun of the family of four with seven bedrooms who can't afford furniture for the formal dining room, but that is because they complain about expenses, work and being exhausted. But I don't think they are morally bankrupt, or even likely to regret their choices in any significant way in the long term. They simply don't have anything to retire to. For them, there is no rush to retire because it will just mean more free time, not time to pursue something very different.

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