time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

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mouses
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time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:20 am

So I'm doing Roth to Roth transfers into my Vanguard account from credit unions. The first set of transfers, from a large credit union, went promptly. The forms arrived at Vanguard, in a few days Vanguard mailed requests to the credit union, a few days later the credit union had the requests and promptly mailed checks to Vanguard, and Vanguard credited them to my account almost as soon as they arrived.

Now I'm trying to transfer in money from a small credit union. It appears Vanguard has a database of other financial institutions with information pertinent to doing transfers and Small Credit Union is not in it. This sends processing into a tailspin and the forms stall in processing "forever."

When I call Vanguard to ask the state of these transfers, I get the same story each time "Processing is attempting to contact Small Credit Union to find out their requirements for transfers." Like they are calling the credit union and no one answers the phone. Or maybe they are calling at midnight. Or they postal mailed requests for information and the requests got lost in the mail (for every transfer I started, apparently.)

I've called Small Credit Union, and they have not been contacted by Vanguard.

Has anyone had this situation with a source financial institution not in Vanguard's database? If so, do you know what the heck processing was doing, and how long did it take to finally get something done?

Thanks.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:31 am

As followup question about taxes and Roths:

I normally do trustee to trustee transfers. I have been considering having Small Credit Union close the Roth CDs, cut me a check for the total payable to "Charles Schwab Inc FBO my name," and me hand carrying it to the nearest Schwab office. Would this look like turning Roth money into non-Roth money or something else undesirable?

Thanks.

sharukh
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by sharukh » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:19 am

The new irs rule is, you can do the above only once a year if you have had access to the money

retiredjg
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by retiredjg » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:20 am

As I understand it, if the check is actually made out to Schwab, that is a trustee to trustee transfer as well even if the check passes through your hands. It does not count as your once per year IRA rollover.

I'm not sure that your credit union will make the check out that way without the proper paperwork from Schwab. It might be interesting to find out. If they will do that, they could also make out the check to your IRA at Vanguard if that is where you want your money to be.

It seems you also could go cash out the IRA entirely, elect out of withholding any taxes, get a check made out to you, and march an equal amount of money over to Schwab within 60 days and perform a 60 day rollover. Or you could send to your Roth IRA at Vanguard and report it is a 60 day rollover on your taxes. Either of these would count as your once a year rollover.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/pl ... tributions

Jack FFR1846
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am

I'd cancel the Vanguard transfer and contact Fidelity, going online and using their automated process. So much less hassle than flying to Italy and getting a personal audience with the Pope to get his verified wax signature on all the Vanguard forms.
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mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:45 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am
I'd cancel the Vanguard transfer and contact Fidelity, going online and using their automated process. So much less hassle than flying to Italy and getting a personal audience with the Pope to get his verified wax signature on all the Vanguard forms.
I can't remember if I tried that. I did try the Schwab online process and got alarmed when the process could not find Small Credit Union and said I could continue if I really, really wanted to. So I backed out of that.

I am going to give Vanguard another week. Then I'm going to Small Credit Union, ask if they can close all 4 cds and issue (a) one check (I think one check is important, so that it does not look like four hand carry transfers) to me or (b) one or four checks to Schwab fbo me, and then hand carry to the local Schwab office.

delamer
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by delamer » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:05 pm

mouses wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:45 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am
I'd cancel the Vanguard transfer and contact Fidelity, going online and using their automated process. So much less hassle than flying to Italy and getting a personal audience with the Pope to get his verified wax signature on all the Vanguard forms.
I can't remember if I tried that. I did try the Schwab online process and got alarmed when the process could not find Small Credit Union and said I could continue if I really, really wanted to. So I backed out of that.

I am going to give Vanguard another week. Then I'm going to Small Credit Union, ask if they can close all 4 cds and issue (a) one check (I think one check is important, so that it does not look like four hand carry transfers) to me or (b) one or four checks to Schwab fbo me, and then hand carry to the local Schwab office.
When I was trying to transfer assets to Vanguard from Small Bank, the problem was the electronic transfer mechanism. For securities, there are two methods (can't remember the acronyms) -- 1) the receiving institution "pulls" the assets from the delivering institution or 2) the delivering institution "pushes" the assets to the receiving institution. It turned out that Small Bank only participated in "push" transfers but Vanguard wanted to "pull" the assets. Eventually, I got them on the same page and Vanguard accepted the "push" transfer. But it was more painful than it needed to be.

I just did a search -- I believe ACATS is name of the "pull" system.

Anyway, it might be worth asking your credit union what system they use. If they "push," it could be why Vanguard can't find them in ACATS.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:22 pm

Thanks, delamer, I'll call them Monday.

sport
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by sport » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:26 pm

When I transferred 401k money to Vanguard, the instructions from Vanguard were to have the 401k custodian make out a check payable to "Vanguard Fiduciary Trust Company FBO <sport>". The 401k custodian mailed a check to my home, and mailed it to Vanguard with instructions on how to invest it in my TIRA account. There were no Vanguard forms to get signed, and there was no direct contact between Vanguard and the 401k administrator. This method was considered to be a trustee-to-trustee direct transfer and no tax withholding was required.

student
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by student » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:44 pm

mouses wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:45 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am
I'd cancel the Vanguard transfer and contact Fidelity, going online and using their automated process. So much less hassle than flying to Italy and getting a personal audience with the Pope to get his verified wax signature on all the Vanguard forms.
I can't remember if I tried that. I did try the Schwab online process and got alarmed when the process could not find Small Credit Union and said I could continue if I really, really wanted to. So I backed out of that.

I am going to give Vanguard another week. Then I'm going to Small Credit Union, ask if they can close all 4 cds and issue (a) one check (I think one check is important, so that it does not look like four hand carry transfers) to me or (b) one or four checks to Schwab fbo me, and then hand carry to the local Schwab office.
May I suggest that you transfer the CD to a money market IRA as an intermediate step. This way there is no confusion that only one check is necessary.

mw1739
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mw1739 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:47 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am
I'd cancel the Vanguard transfer and contact Fidelity, going online and using their automated process. So much less hassle than flying to Italy and getting a personal audience with the Pope to get his verified wax signature on all the Vanguard forms.
+1. When I opened Vanguard accounts it required moving heaven and earth to do simple things like change an account from individual to joint etc. and the transfer time was outrageous, probably 3 weeks. I recently consolidated everything at Fidelity to have a local office to visit if necessary. Everything transferred in about 4 days. It was fantastic.

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nedsaid
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by nedsaid » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:56 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am
I'd cancel the Vanguard transfer and contact Fidelity, going online and using their automated process. So much less hassle than flying to Italy and getting a personal audience with the Pope to get his verified wax signature on all the Vanguard forms.
I have heard that the Pope has a pretty busy schedule, he might not be able to fit you in. :wink:
A fool and his money are good for business.

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celia
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by celia » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:27 pm

If you are trying to transfer all your IRAs to Vanguard, I don't know what Schwab or Fidelity have to do with it.
mouses wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:45 pm
I am going to give Vanguard another week. Then I'm going to Small Credit Union, ask if they can close all 4 cds and issue (a) one check (I think one check is important, so that it does not look like four hand carry transfers) to me or (b) one or four checks to Schwab fbo me, and then hand carry to the local Schwab office.
I agree with the first half of this--get one check from the credit union that says it is coming from your traditional IRA and have it made out to "Vanguard Fiduciary Trust Company FBO <mouses>" (whatever Vanguard recommends). Then mail it to Vanguard specifying the account you want it to go into.

DO NOT have the check made out to you. (This will still be considered a trustee-to-trustee transfer.)
DO NOT have any taxes withheld.

Why put extra steps in it? If you are afraid it might get lost in the mail, send it one- or two-day delivery with return confirmation.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:19 am

celia wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:27 pm
If you are trying to transfer all your IRAs to Vanguard, I don't know what Schwab or Fidelity have to do with it."
I'm close to giving up on Vanguard and going with one of those instead.

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celia
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by celia » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:36 am

Of course, you can give up on Vanguard being able to transfer the money ( I would in your situation! ) and just do the legwork yourself like I am recommending. But when you mail the check to Vanguard, they have to process checks the date they are received. They don't leave them sitting around. And even if there was to be a big backlog of paperwork, they will give you the price for the shares as of the date the check was received, even if it takes them a couple of days to process it.

Crediting a check to your account is a simple process. Pulling money from a custodian not in the exchange network is not!
Last edited by celia on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:37 am

With online transfers, they have relationships set up with some custodians. As you found out, if it's not one of those then you can't do it online. No big deal. The regular way usually involves a completed form and a copy of the latest statement from the other custodian. Usually those can be submitted by secure message or at worst fax. I don't think I have had to do that at Schwab.

I wouldn't bother with Vanguard.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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celia
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by celia » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:52 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:37 am
With online transfers, they have relationships set up with some custodians.
What YOU (the client/customer) sees as an online transfer sometimes isn't. You just assume it is since your part to initiate a transaction was done online.

For a few years, I was membership chairman for an organization (about 10 years ago). All the members paid their dues by check (or cash) by mail or at a meeting. One year, a member said she had paid but neither the treasurer nor I had seen her check. We asked how and when she paid. We checked our records and didn't see her. But she insisted she made an online payment and it was subtracted from her account. What??? We didn't accept online payments.

It turned out that her bank printed out a check for her after they received her request and put it in the mail for her. Only, in this case, it was lost in the mail. (Maybe she didn't give them our mailing address.) So we asked her to talk to her bank to see what happened. They re-issued the check and we received it. To her, she did an "online transfer". But to us it was another mailed check.

Some investor custodians will transfer funds electronically while others need to mail a check.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:11 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:37 am
With online transfers, they have relationships set up with some custodians. As you found out, if it's not one of those then you can't do it online. No big deal. The regular way usually involves a completed form and a copy of the latest statement from the other custodian. Usually those can be submitted by secure message or at worst fax. I don't think I have had to do that at Schwab
That is in fact how I started the four transfers with Vanguard, mailing them four paper forms. I know they received them because Vanguard customer service was able to tell me that. Now Vanguard processing is sitting on them doing nothing or who knows what.

I later tried the online method with Schwab, but backed out when it did not recognize Small Credit Union, because I thought it might stall in Schwab. (If it had succeeded, I would have cancelled the Vanguard transfers.) Hence my interest in hand carrying a check.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:17 am

With the previous, successful transfers to Vanguard from Big Credit Union, I was able to follow the steps by calling Vanguard and because both places sent me email. It went like this:

I postal mail forms to Vanguard.
A few days later Vanguard receives the forms.
A few days later Vanguard postal mails requests to Big Credit Union to do the transfers.
A few days later Big Credit Union emails me that they have received the requests and postal mailed out checks.
A few days later the money is at Vanguard and shows up in my account on the website.

With the transfers from Small Credit Union, stuff is in the ether after Vanguard received the forms.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:02 am

celia wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:52 am
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:37 am
With online transfers, they have relationships set up with some custodians.
What YOU (the client/customer) sees as an online transfer sometimes isn't. You just assume it is since your part to initiate a transaction was done online.
I did not intend to imply anything else. When a custodian offers online transfers (and it's becoming more frequent) you generally have a selection of custodians available as a source for transfers. If one is not on the list, then there is a different process. What the actual steps behind the scenes is for any particular transfer is unknown. I will say that in general, for either type of initiating transfer the results tend to be much faster than even a few years ago. That doesn't have anything specific to say about any individual transfer.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

MathWizard
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by MathWizard » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:12 am

Every transfer from TIAA-CREF to Vanguard that I started from Vanguard ended
up having to be re-initiated through TIAA-CREF.

Both organizations are well known companies, so it should be easy,
but it has not been.

I used to complain, but given the recent high profile online security breaches,
maybe that is not such a bad thing.

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Kevin M
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by Kevin M » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:59 am

I've done many IRA transfers, including many out of and into Vanguard. The transfers usually take 2-3 weeks from the time I mail the form to the receiving custodian (who then mails it to the sending custodian, who then mails a check to receiving custodian). I recently had my first really bad IRA transfer experience--to Vanguard from a credit union--it took a few months to get it done. I won't go into the details here, but I just kept escalating the issue with Vanguard until they got it done.

Kevin
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:25 pm

If I ever had a problem getting a transfer done that required me to "escalate" I'd be out of that custodian post-haste. Not that I would use Vanguard as a brokerage, as there are better places even without all the issues on transfers.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:59 am
I recently had my first really bad IRA transfer experience--to Vanguard from a credit union--it took a few months to get it done. I won't go into the details here, but I just kept escalating the issue with Vanguard until they got it done.

Kevin
Now I'm depressed. Months. Handcarrying a check to Schwab is getting to look more appealing. Unfortunately the Schwab office is 45 minutes away in a city with parking problems.

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TimeRunner
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by TimeRunner » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:10 pm

mouses wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm
Unfortunately the Schwab office is 45 minutes away in a city with parking problems.
Call that office - it's likely they validate parking or will cover your parking fee. They did that for me.
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mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:26 pm

TimeRunner wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:10 pm
mouses wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm
Unfortunately the Schwab office is 45 minutes away in a city with parking problems.
Call that office - it's likely they validate parking or will cover your parking fee. They did that for me.
Thanks, but I'm not worried about the parking fee. I'm worried about hobbling blocks with a cane.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:01 pm

I got a check from Small Credit Union and hand carried it to Schwab. Wow, do they have a lot of security in their building. Since 9/11, they said.

acanthurus
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by acanthurus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:18 pm

Removed
Last edited by acanthurus on Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mouses
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Re: time to transfer money to Vanguard, grumble, grumble

Post by mouses » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:45 am

acanthurus wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:18 pm
mouses wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:26 pm
TimeRunner wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:10 pm
mouses wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm
Unfortunately the Schwab office is 45 minutes away in a city with parking problems.
Call that office - it's likely they validate parking or will cover your parking fee. They did that for me.
Thanks, but I'm not worried about the parking fee. I'm worried about hobbling blocks with a cane.
Call Schwab. They have a customer service program specifically for clients that are more than a certain distance from a local branch. Ask if they can help you.
Clients not served by a local branch can partner with one of our dedicated Financial Consultants at our National Branch. National Branch Consultants offer the same services as those in our physical branches, just over the phone. To speak to our National Branch, please call 888-804-4281 (Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m. PT).
Thanks, but I wanted to hand over a check to some life form and get a receipt. Vanguard has turned me into a paranoid about letting things out of my sight.

I obviously move in the wrong circles, with my scruffy jeans, sweatshirt, and Tretorns. The Schwab office was like something out of Dynasty, for those of us over a certain age.

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