Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

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Saving$
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Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Saving$ » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:23 pm

My insurer's website has a place where I can check property elevations with respect to nearby flood areas. It includes a warning that over 20% of damage to homes occurs outside of flood areas.

I am wondering if there is a certain level above the flood plain level where you no longer need to be concerned about flooding from weather. If a property is 2' above the flood plain, the chances a flood that rises above the flood plain and hit that property are much more than a property that is 20' or 200' above the flood plain. But is there a certain number of feet above the flood plain to no longer be concerned?

Rupert
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Rupert » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 pm

Saving$ wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:23 pm
My insurer's website has a place where I can check property elevations with respect to nearby flood areas. It includes a warning that over 20% of damage to homes occurs outside of flood areas.

I am wondering if there is a certain level above the flood plain level where you no longer need to be concerned about flooding from weather. If a property is 2' above the flood plain, the chances a flood that rises above the flood plain and hit that property are much more than a property that is 20' or 200' above the flood plain. But is there a certain number of feet above the flood plain to no longer be concerned?
You also have to factor in localized flooding. If, for example, your city doesn't properly maintain its storm drains, your house could flood during a major rain event regardless of how high you are relative to the flood plain.

indexonlyplease
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by indexonlyplease » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm

I don't live in a flood zone in south florida. But for $400 dollars a year why take the gamble.

Like Rupert stated other local problems could occur.


My cousin called me to tell me he paid off his house last year. Then he dropped the house insurance. His is sh____ in his pants with Hurricane Irma on the way.

Financial expert state if you can insure a proplem and take away the stress of the problem, then insure.

ResearchMed
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:47 pm

Rupert wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 pm
Saving$ wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:23 pm
My insurer's website has a place where I can check property elevations with respect to nearby flood areas. It includes a warning that over 20% of damage to homes occurs outside of flood areas.

I am wondering if there is a certain level above the flood plain level where you no longer need to be concerned about flooding from weather. If a property is 2' above the flood plain, the chances a flood that rises above the flood plain and hit that property are much more than a property that is 20' or 200' above the flood plain. But is there a certain number of feet above the flood plain to no longer be concerned?
You also have to factor in localized flooding. If, for example, your city doesn't properly maintain its storm drains, your house could flood during a major rain event regardless of how high you are relative to the flood plain.
I think there are other sorts of water damage, such as mudslides (and other, but I've forgotten).
You might want to read the terms of your policy to see if there are other types of damages/causes that might occur regardless of whether there is a "flood" or not.

As for the "number of feet above...", that could vary dramatically depending upon the topography.

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livesoft
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by livesoft » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:03 pm

I just discussed this very thing with my spouse a few days ago. Here is our conclusion for us:

We said, "How much HIGHER did the water level go above the 0.2%-flood plain on FEMA maps in the past week with Harvey?" That is, how "wrong" was the current map? So if it was 10 feet, then we would say a reasonable choice would be 10 ft above the highest seen ever so far including Harvey or past floods.

But be aware that this could mean nothing if creeks upstream of you have no history of flooding because maybe they will flood. That is, it is helpful to have a history of so-called "signature events."
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Muri
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Muri » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:08 pm

A few years ago the Baltimore Sun had an article about potential worse case flooding in MD. It stated that if there were perfect storm conditions, a hurricane under certain tidal conditions, full moon, high tide, etc. it is possible for MD to have a 24 foot high tide. That helped us decide to get the flood insurance even though we aren't in 100 year flood zone. The flooding that just happened in Houston was classified as 1000 year flood zone.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Lafder » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:15 pm

I pay for flood insurance even though I am not in an official flood plain. My common sense tells me I am close enough to a river it could be a problem if the river floods..............
Lafder

user5027
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by user5027 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:41 pm

I live in a flood plain and I have flood insurance.

Get a quote. If you are not in a flood risk area it will be cheap. Or wait until your new neighbor Noah moves in and starts building an ark. :D

HIinvestor
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by HIinvestor » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:46 pm

We weren't in the flood plain and after the maps were redrawn we are now inside the edge of the floodplain. We purchased insurance and I believe the premiums reflect your risk--further away and less risk us lower premiums.

For peace of mind we started buying flood and hurricane policies as soon as we could afford them. Weather has just been too strange these days for our tastes not to have as much coverage as possible.
Last edited by HIinvestor on Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Saving$
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Saving$ » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:45 pm

The insurers website indicates I am 75' above the nearest food zone. Seems to me my only flooding risk is if the city sewer back up.... Which is also apparently covered by food insurance

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badbreath
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by badbreath » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:57 pm

Funny thing happened to the house I grew up in. Out of the blue my dad go t a letter that said he was in a flood zone and would need to get flood insurance. We think they were looking at a Google type map which would show a river very close to our house but did not show elevation of about 50-60 feet of a steep slope to get to the river. My dad contested with photos and won.
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mouses
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by mouses » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:59 pm

indexonlyplease wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm
My cousin called me to tell me he paid off his house last year. Then he dropped the house insurance. His is sh____ in his pants with Hurricane Irma on the way.
I kind of suspect it was homeowner's insurance he dropped. That doesn't help with floods. Or do mortgage providers require flood insurance in some areas?

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Mudpuppy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:42 pm

Rupert wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 pm
You also have to factor in localized flooding. If, for example, your city doesn't properly maintain its storm drains, your house could flood during a major rain event regardless of how high you are relative to the flood plain.
Which is exactly why I have flood insurance even though I'm not near a river or creek. I've seen poorly maintained city drainage cause flooding several times in the time I've owned my house. The flooding ranged from flooded streets to flooded houses in the neighborhoods with poorly maintained drainage systems. Thankfully, my neighborhood hasn't flooded yet. But all it would take is one good storm when my neighborhood is the one experiencing "deferred maintenance" of the storm drainage system.

I'm also downstream from a reservoir that would flood my neighborhood if it failed. That is a much rarer possibility than storm damage though. But in California, local governments are supposed to develop inundation maps and evacuation plans just in case it does happen. After the Oroville Dam damage, more people became aware of those plans and maps for their local reservoirs. If the reservoir were to fail when full, it would pretty much flood out my entire house according to the maps.

HIinvestor
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by HIinvestor » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:18 pm

I've seen houses flood in areas that are not near streams or bodies of water when the "responsible agency" doesn't do proper maintenance and/or irresponsible people dump things in drainage canals that ought to have been properly disposed of. The damage is staggering and unpredictable, even though they may be elevated and not near the ocean.

We asked for a premium quote for flood (and hurricane) coverage and if it seemed reasonable and something we could afford (it did and was), we purchased it. It's all about peace of mind with the strange weather and poor maintenance that can and sadly does occur more often and we'd like.

iamlucky13
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by iamlucky13 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:49 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:03 pm
But be aware that this could mean nothing if creeks upstream of you have no history of flooding because maybe they will flood. That is, it is helpful to have a history of so-called "signature events."
My understanding is the FEMA maps are largely based on hydrology modelling rather than past events.

slick_dealer_05
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by slick_dealer_05 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:35 am

If you are not in a flood zone and have not been flooded previously, it doesn't make any sense to buy flood insurance. Premiums are too high for responsible behavior and you are essentially subsidizing folks who live in the flood plain or have ocean front properties. Instead, much better to self insure.

I know friends who live in Houston flood plain and their house has been flooded 3 times in the past 3 years. It's a money maker for them through NFIP !

livesoft
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by livesoft » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:39 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:49 pm
My understanding is the FEMA maps are largely based on hydrology modelling rather than past events.
Tbat is my understanding as well.
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Rocco Sampler
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Rocco Sampler » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:00 am

In the case of a major storm, there is the possibility that your normal home insurance company would try to deny your claim saying it was flood damage:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homeowners ... ages-case/

There is also the possibility that your flood insurance company would try to deny your claim with other excuses:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fema-evide ... y-reports/

I am relatively high for Florida and not in a flood zone, but since I live in Florida with the potential for hurricanes, I have both (which I hopefully won't need in the morning).
:shock:

pieter
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by pieter » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:33 am

If you are not in a flood zone and have not been flooded previously, it doesn't make any sense to buy flood insurance. Premiums are too high for responsible behavior and you are essentially subsidizing folks who live in the flood plain or have ocean front properties. Instead, much better to self insure.
If you are not in a flood zone, flood insurance is cheap (not expensive). I live in Houston area and many homes here flooded that are not in a recognized flood zone. In our neighborhood, nearby a river that reached historic flood levels, there were no homes flooded by the river. People have bought houses in the neighborhood practicing "responsible behavior" precisely because it is considered to be a very low risk of flooding. However, a number of my neighbors were surprised when they did flood from the smaller creeks (located far from their homes) that flow into the river. Current flood maps showing 500 yr flood zones did not predict most of the flooding. Property owners who focus on the flood maps may not understand that there is still risk. The whole point of insurance is to cover a low likelihood event (even risk believed by some to be non-existent) to mitigate financial impact at a reasonable low cost. In fact, because the insurance is cheap in this situation, your point about self insurance does not make sense.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by pshonore » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:37 am

mouses wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:59 pm
indexonlyplease wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm
My cousin called me to tell me he paid off his house last year. Then he dropped the house insurance. His is sh____ in his pants with Hurricane Irma on the way.
I kind of suspect it was homeowner's insurance he dropped. That doesn't help with floods. Or do mortgage providers require flood insurance in some areas?
Homeowner's insurance certainly covers most hurricane damage though (with the exception of "rising water"). Falling trees, lost roof, broken windows, etc.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:49 am

Saving$ wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:23 pm
My insurer's website has a place where I can check property elevations with respect to nearby flood areas. It includes a warning that over 20% of damage to homes occurs outside of flood areas.

I am wondering if there is a certain level above the flood plain level where you no longer need to be concerned about flooding from weather. If a property is 2' above the flood plain, the chances a flood that rises above the flood plain and hit that property are much more than a property that is 20' or 200' above the flood plain. But is there a certain number of feet above the flood plain to no longer be concerned?
Runoff is probably as great a danger of flooding as water level rise. And runoff can hit you hard on a hill.

If you look at the extremity of the Houston weather event you have to conclude 2 things:

- the "1 in 1000" year storm is probably meaningless - things have changed, and we do not in any case have 1000 years of written data

- a lot of people got hit who probably didn't think they were at risk, probably didn't show up on the flood maps

Rupert
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Rupert » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:57 am

pshonore wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:37 am
mouses wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:59 pm
indexonlyplease wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm
My cousin called me to tell me he paid off his house last year. Then he dropped the house insurance. His is sh____ in his pants with Hurricane Irma on the way.
I kind of suspect it was homeowner's insurance he dropped. That doesn't help with floods. Or do mortgage providers require flood insurance in some areas?
Homeowner's insurance certainly covers most hurricane damage though (with the exception of "rising water"). Falling trees, lost roof, broken windows, etc.
Mortgage companies do require flood insurance if you're in a flood zone. Note that many HO policies (most, in hurricane prone regions) also exclude hurricane damage unless you specifically pay for wind coverage. Many people around me actually have separate HO and wind policies, with different companies.

mouses
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by mouses » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:13 am

slick_dealer_05 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:35 am
If you are not in a flood zone and have not been flooded previously, it doesn't make any sense to buy flood insurance. Premiums are too high for responsible behavior and you are essentially subsidizing folks who live in the flood plain or have ocean front properties. Instead, much better to self insure.

I know friends who live in Houston flood plain and their house has been flooded 3 times in the past 3 years. It's a money maker for them through NFIP !
i am pretty sure they are not "making money." Even if the flood insurance pays to repair the damage and some living expenses (not sure it covers the latter), it is just restoring the previous condition. Also it does not compensate for the stress, danger, and loss of emotionally significant items.

I see a lot of remarks about people who live in waterfront property. What you have to remember is that some families have lived there for generations, when the risk from rising sea levels and hurricanes was much less than it is currently. Also many are not wealthy. Consider fishing communities, for example, or the great grandparents bought when there wasn't even town water.

marc515
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by marc515 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:30 am

It all depends where you live!

For example, If you live in any area which is hurricane or hurricane remnent prone, having flood insurance would be considered a smart move.

All you have to do is look back on past hurricanes; how many of those folks who experienced "Historical Flooding" didn't have flood insurance. Many were in areas which had never flooded.

Climate change is here, and it's better to be safe than sorry.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:22 am

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (insurance).

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AlwaysBeClimbing
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by AlwaysBeClimbing » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:01 am

Do you live downstream of any major dam(s)? A dam failure from any cause, could give you double digit feet of water in a hurry depending on your elevation and location relative to the watercourse.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Top99% » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:15 am

We live on the side of a 200 foot hill but our house flooded due to a drainage issue in an interior courtyard. Standard homeowner's insurance definitely will not cover scenarios where water enters your home via the outside ground. So if your house sits on land with potential drainage issues you might also want to consider flood insurance or at least make sure you mitigate the drainage issues.
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slick_dealer_05
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by slick_dealer_05 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:01 pm

mouses wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:13 am
slick_dealer_05 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:35 am
If you are not in a flood zone and have not been flooded previously, it doesn't make any sense to buy flood insurance. Premiums are too high for responsible behavior and you are essentially subsidizing folks who live in the flood plain or have ocean front properties. Instead, much better to self insure.

I know friends who live in Houston flood plain and their house has been flooded 3 times in the past 3 years. It's a money maker for them through NFIP !
i am pretty sure they are not "making money." Even if the flood insurance pays to repair the damage and some living expenses (not sure it covers the latter), it is just restoring the previous condition. Also it does not compensate for the stress, danger, and loss of emotionally significant items.
A house in northeast Houston has received 18 flood insurance payments totaling $1.8 million—more than 15 times the property’s market value.
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by celia » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:13 pm

Lafder wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:15 pm
I pay for flood insurance even though I am not in an official flood plain. My common sense tells me I am close enough to a river it could be a problem if the river floods..............
In So. California, the "rivers" are in flood control channels, those concrete ditches that control where the excess water goes. But they have been known to flood over too. We tend to not even think about them since they are usually dry (due to the drought

But I have this theory that WE actually control the flooding. When a year of El Nino rains were expected, we, along with many neighbors, bought flood insurance.

It didn't rain that year due to too many people being insured. :D

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sergeant
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by sergeant » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:42 pm

celia wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:13 pm
Lafder wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:15 pm
I pay for flood insurance even though I am not in an official flood plain. My common sense tells me I am close enough to a river it could be a problem if the river floods..............
In So. California, the "rivers" are in flood control channels, those concrete ditches that control where the excess water goes. But they have been known to flood over too. We tend to not even think about them since they are usually dry (due to the drought

But I have this theory that WE actually control the flooding. When a year of El Nino rains were expected, we, along with many neighbors, bought flood insurance.

It didn't rain that year due to too many people being insured. :D
So. Ca. has spent billions on flood control measures. Houston has spent about 17 cents. I have spent lots of time in both places. No comparison. I recommend flood insurance just about anywhere though. I have seen numerous traffic accidents where a fire hydrant gets taken out and floods a few homes before fire can get it shut off.
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by runner3081 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:21 pm

mouses wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:59 pm
indexonlyplease wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm
My cousin called me to tell me he paid off his house last year. Then he dropped the house insurance. His is sh____ in his pants with Hurricane Irma on the way.
I kind of suspect it was homeowner's insurance he dropped. That doesn't help with floods. Or do mortgage providers require flood insurance in some areas?
Yes, most banks (if not all) will require flood insurance if in a FEMA flood plain.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by nova1968 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:26 pm

Yes I think Flood Insurance is a good idea, When I paid my house off a few years ago I reduced my insurance significantly including canceling my flood insurance. My justification was that my Home is about 6 feet above the sea plane and while there have been floods in the Hollywood Lakes area my home was virtually untouched
I am a resident of South FL and live on a canal 1/2 mile from the Ocean. With the recent storm and living in an evacuation zone I was more concerned about a storm surge from the Ocean versus wind damage to my home. Fortunately the water retained itself at 3 feet below the sea wall and there was no flooding as a result of Hurricane Irma making a shift to the west. I am sure flood insurance will be much more as a result of this storm but I am definitely going to open a policy.

westrichj312
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by westrichj312 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm

if your not in a flood plain you don't need it. :confused

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gasdoc
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by gasdoc » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:52 pm

We own a house in The Villages, FL. We are approx 100 feet above sea level. During the recent hurricane, the golf courses flooded, coming just short of golf-side homes, like ours. None of us have flood insurance, though we have hurricane insurance. We were lucky. It is possible to have local flooding. We will be getting flood insurance now.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by Wildebeest » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:18 pm

Lots of people would benefit from flood insurance when not in a 100 year flood plain. Houston had Harvey, a 1000 year flood, which may recur in the next 5 or 10 years making it a 10 year flood plain. Clearly the world as we know it is a changing.

Sandy caused Manhattan to flood and are there any major comprehensive plans to create a plan to keep the next Sandy from happening?https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 6sq8H7_YpA No, I think these plans are window dressing and I am sure that that another hurricane will flood Manhattan in my lifetime even if I do not live to a ripe old age.

Most houses which are East coast beach front property now will be swept away in a hurricane in my life time. May be buy property three blocks from the beach and you or your children will have have ocean view before you know it.

I built my home on top of a 400 foot hill and as the builder remarked he thought I was crazy to have basement walls tarred, have drainage pipes run away from the house and a sump pump. I am prepared.

No, I do not have flood insurance.
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by MikeWillRetire » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:39 pm

If you believe in the good book, we are all in a floodplain. It just depends on how big the storm is. :happy

livesoft
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by livesoft » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:43 pm

gasdoc wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:52 pm
During the recent hurricane, the golf courses flooded, coming just short of golf-side homes, like ours.
Developers often designate golf courses as places for water run-off and drainage. In essence, often they are meant to take water and hold it for a little while and drain away over a few days.

If one looks at FEMA maps, one may find many golf courses in the 100-year flood plain. It's a good use of the land that cannot have homes built on it as are parks.
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gasdoc
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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by gasdoc » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:30 pm

livesoft wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:43 pm
gasdoc wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:52 pm
During the recent hurricane, the golf courses flooded, coming just short of golf-side homes, like ours.
Developers often designate golf courses as places for water run-off and drainage. In essence, often they are meant to take water and hold it for a little while and drain away over a few days.

If one looks at FEMA maps, one may find many golf courses in the 100-year flood plain. It's a good use of the land that cannot have homes built on it as are parks.
Thanks, Livesoft, good to know.

gasdoc

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by IngognitoUSA » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:34 pm

Maybe if people posted Flood Insurance Premiums and State they live in, it would be very helpful.

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Re: Flood Insurance when not in flood plain?

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:59 pm

IngognitoUSA wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:34 pm
Maybe if people posted Flood Insurance Premiums and State they live in, it would be very helpful.
This won't be helpful in terms of giving relative pricing for similar properties.

The value of the house isn't being held constant, and whether the house is in a flood zone, or how close/etc., would also make a difference.

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