Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

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david99
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by david99 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:22 pm

I knew two computer programmers that became math teachers in their 40's. One got carpal tunnel and the other got laid off. They both enjoy teaching.

Dottie57
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:31 pm

TheNightsToCome wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
Hyperborea wrote:I too am a non-US person living in the Bay Area for over 20 years now and I've traveled around the US. There are only a few places in the US that I would consider living for the long term. So, I understand the OP's reluctance to move elsewhere. It's hard to consider living somewhere with fewer amenities. It's even harder as a foreigner living in some of these places that have been suggested. In some of them it might be even more difficult if you are not caucasian or worse are in a mixed race marriage. We have no idea of the OP's situation and some of these places might not be that welcoming of Californians (ever heard the term Kalifornication used in some of these places) never mind foreigners, maybe non-Christians, maybe non-white.
You know we're not talking about small towns deep in rural America here, right? (and even most of those aren't as bad you think).

We're talking about major metropolitan cities with millions of residents, universities, museums, theatres, symphonies, restaurants, parks, art districts, farmer markets, etc.

Near oceans, lakes, mountains, rivers, and forests.

The U.S. is huge, and 90% of Fortune 1000 jobs are outside of Silicon Valley in areas that are quite nice places to live.
I live in a rural midwestern town of < 20,000 with my foreign-born, asian wife. Our good friends are a caucasian and Indian couple (American born, Indian heritage). I work with several immigrants from Africa, multiple Indian immigrants, and multiple muslim immigrants (including women in traditional-type attire). I have multiple clients in black/white marriages.

Hyperborea, you need to get out more.
+1

freebeer
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Location: Seattle area USA

Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by freebeer » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:40 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:...
* New tech is anything that has come of age in the last 10 years - think Google, Facebook, Twitter, AirBnB, Uber, Apple, Netflix etc.
Uh I think this is an unreasonably narrow way to think about it. Java and C++ are still two of the most-hired programming languages. SQL is still in demand. PHP is still the most widely used language in Facebook. JavaScript is 22 years old and is still rising in usage. And so on.

Sure these things are not machine learning or bigquery or NLP or ... but these new techs are a tiny tiny slice of jobs even at the leading companies. The new techs may pay more but are by no means essential to employability (speaking as a hiring manager).

And if you feel you need something current to be appealing pick a reasonably known (but not so popular as to be incredibly hard to contribute to) open source project that's based on a language/framework you already know and get to know it and make some small contributions. An active github account with some merged pull requests to known open source projects will give your resume a nice fresh shiny look and may directly lead to employment opportunities.

davidsorensen32
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by davidsorensen32 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:38 pm

KlangFool, you're SPOT ON ! The problem is I got laid off from one of the companies in that list. And the rest of them others are dying dinosaurs. Layoffs every 6 months. Brutal culture. Very low morale. Everyone is hanging on for as long as they can. Its highly politically charged due to negative growth.

Regarding my attitude - believe me its been a struggle. I'm exercising everyday. Have surrounded myself with positive news and messages. Try to learn something new everyday. Solve puzzles. Trying to be a better dad and husband. Push myself to apply to at least 2 -3 jobs everyday with nice cover letters. But the outcome is still a big fat ZERO.
KlangFool wrote:OP,

You were a product manager. And, you should know marketing. If you market yourself as a product, why would someone buy a 40 years old fresh software developer? It would not make any sense.

Instead of focusing on what you do not have and your weakness, you should look at your strength.

1) You know people aka customer connection at big companies.

2) People know you. You have a relationship with key people in major companies.

3) Your experience, age, contacts are an asset for anyone that wants to sell those companies.

Who is your market?

http://www.smartinsights.com/manage-dig ... toftheday/

Isn't it obvious from this chart that you had been applying to the wrong employers?

You will have a better chance of getting an offer from IBM, Dell, Oracle, and HP. And, please do not tell us that those are not high tech companies and they have no division working on leading technologies.

Conversely, looking at the chart, You have been applying and interviewing at employer at the other end of the chart: Facebook, Linkedin, Salesforce. This is lousy marketing.

IMHO, you had been fishing in the wrong places. Applying for the wrong job with the wrong employer. It does not work. You need to try something else.

KlangFool

BW1985
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by BW1985 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:17 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:Guys I'm not whining or being negative intentionally. Just stating my concerns. Moving to LCOL sounds awesome except when you think about the practicalities of getting a job and networking. If I can't get a job with my connections in the valley what chance do I have outside the valley. I don't know what it is but I simply cannot seem to be making an impression like I used to. I pride myself in availing of the opportunities available in this great country. Got an education. Never lived off the dole. Invested according to bogleheads principle. I'm hardworking, hands on, zero ego. But none of those things seem to count anymore. I've applied to 175 positions since January. Had one on one meetings with hundreds of contacts. Been to a dozen "new tech" interviews and been turned down everywhere. San Francisco seems such a happening town except when it comes to jobs I simply cannot seem to make the cut. I've been at in person interviews at Uber, Lyft, Splunk, salesforce - all San Francisco based major companies but it's the same response everywhere "you don't have domain experience". At one major internet company I've been turned down three times over the last five years after in person interviews - they must have put me on a black list for some reason. I'm dumb founded as to how I went from a highly sought after candidate to the status of a leper literally overnight. And now that I'm laid off companies will start to lowball on compensation also. As the doors start closing one by one i thought of posting in this forum for ideas. I don't need money (thanks to bogleheads I have enough) but I need a job, an opportunity to prove my self worth. Moving to a lcol location might help stretch savings but I'm not at all confident that it'll help alleviate the job situation. LCOL is LCOL for a reason - namely fewer job opportunities. That's the challenge I set for myself. Not everything is about money. And living off the spouse is extremely shameful in my culture. I don't have a choice now but this is not sustainable. Better hope that Forest was right.
You seem to have no confidence in landing a job in a LCOL area but HCOL bay area doesn't seem to be working for you either. You talk about all the opportunities there but that doesn't look to be true. How long do you wait there before giving another [less expensive] area a shot? I bet if you opened up your job search nationwide instead of only bay area you'd have more opportunities.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

skor99
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by skor99 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:18 pm

I am going thru a similar situation and have the link with my discussion below. I am a few years older, similar savings, DW does not make much, 2 kids in good public schools but college expenses are coming soon. I do own a home in a MCOL area with a small mortgage balance.
You will see very different albeit well meaning suggestions from folks - some saying Retire today and have fun vs you are doomed on the other side. Bottomline is only you know what is right for you. Make sure you have the basics covered - taking care of your health and family as wll as health/life/disability insurance etc to get you thru the tumultuous period . All of us (except for the really lucky) face such situations. I agree that even though $2MM sounds like a lot, it cannot be relied on for 40+ years if not living abroad in a low cost country. I personally think I will have to work atleast for the next 10 yrs till kids are out of college. All the best.



viewtopic.php?f=2&t=222083&start=50

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:26 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:
KlangFool, you're SPOT ON ! The problem is I got laid off from one of the companies in that list. And the rest of them others are dying dinosaurs. Layoffs every 6 months. Brutal culture. Very low morale. Everyone is hanging on for as long as they can. Its highly politically charged due to negative growth.
davidsorensen32,

So what? You do not own the company so why does any of this matters?

I went through 5 1/2 years of quarterly laid off. 80% of the employees were gone by the time that my number was called. This was in spite of my division double and triple our revenue and profit. Our reward was our whole location was shut down and outsourced to India.

But, we went out holding our heads high. We did a tremendous job. The mothership failed us. It was not a failure on our part.

KlangFool

Doom&Gloom
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Doom&Gloom » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:14 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:KlangFool, you're SPOT ON ! The problem is I got laid off from one of the companies in that list. And the rest of them others are dying dinosaurs. Layoffs every 6 months. Brutal culture. Very low morale. Everyone is hanging on for as long as they can. Its highly politically charged due to negative growth.

Regarding my attitude - believe me its been a struggle. I'm exercising everyday. Have surrounded myself with positive news and messages. Try to learn something new everyday. Solve puzzles. Trying to be a better dad and husband. Push myself to apply to at least 2 -3 jobs everyday with nice cover letters. But the outcome is still a big fat ZERO.
It seems to me that the supply:demand ratio for the "old tech" jobs in your area is going to keep getting worse and worse for you as more people in your shoes lose their jobs. That might be something you want to consider as you keep digging in your heels to stay put.

deltaneutral83
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:44 pm

I haven't really seen this posted yet but I'd let your kids principal know about your situation. Between the faculty/admin at this private school that have spouses, I'm sure that would be a quick way to add to your contacts list. Moreover, I'm not sure how it could hurt. Right now you've got one or two flies in the ointment but you see it as the sledgehammer and rightfully so at first.

namekevaste
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by namekevaste » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:01 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote: * Going back to school - I've given it a lot of thought. But what are the chances of employment for a 44 year old data scientist competing with 24 year olds ?
The healthcare IT industry in many areas cannot find adequately qualified data scientists. Especially in population health, big data analytics and predictive modeling

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by 2Birds1Stone » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:14 pm

I work in tech as well.

Old tech is hot. Not because of the tech, but because the SME's are drying up.

Shit, some of the top paid guys I come across are mainframers with a decent knowledge of distributed software.

With your wife's income, $2M in portfolio......sure 3.25% WR if you make NO money at all. FInd something less stressful, maybe even part time. Even earning $50-100k/yr you have a WR % with 0 failure rate.

aristotelian
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by aristotelian » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:28 pm

OnTrack2020 wrote:Oh, for goodness sake, do not move to Fargo! The winters are brutal.

With that being said, google "Silicon Prairie Cities" and it will give you an indication of what's available in tech within the Midwest.

Living in a low-cost area will get you:

House - $24k per year, easily if not a little high
Utilities - $3k per year
Tuition - Forget it and move into a good school district
Food - Why is there a $24k allocation?? $12k easily
Auto expenses - $3k easily
Kids activities - $3k

There's Kansas City, Des Moines, Omaha, Lincoln, St. Louis, etc. And, much better quality of life versus the current spending pattern.

https://www.inc.com/drew-hendricks/what ... -ever.html
Honestly, he does not have to move to any of these places. $24K for food is what many people in the US spend for the year for their entire discretionary income. Even in the Bay Area, groceries do not cost that much. Now that he is unemployed, he should be able to spend some time budgeting and going to the store and cooking rice and beans once in a while. Cut back on the kids activities--they will survive without high level sports. He can live in his comfortable Bay Area bubble, cut down his expenses, and get by on his wife's $85K. He will probably find a good job eventually, and if he doesn't he can still supplement his wife's income with something part-time. If they are stretching to make ends meet, they could downsize their house while still living in the Bay Area. He has a $2M cushion and an $85K income. He is fine right now.

WildBill
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by WildBill » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:16 pm

Howdy

Just for an example of life outside the Bay Area

I live in San Antonio, Texas. Technology companies of all types are moving in and/or expanding existing operations.

Plano Texas ( Dallas suburb) is the home to a vast multitude of technology businesses and businesses that employ IT as a key enabler of their businesses. There are 23 Fortune 1000 headquarters operations in Plano. A person with a strong technology/business background will be unemployed for about 1 day. Less than that if they have specific skills in areas such as database integration/technical sales/data mining capabilities/experience.

Effective unemployment rate in this sector is below 2%.

Both have excellent school systems, large Asian- American communities (especially Plano, Chinese/sub-continent/other). A 3200 sqft 4 bdrm home in either city is circa $350-400k. Typical commute up to you, but 15-30 minutes typically.

BTW - Texas does not have a state income tax. I believe California's is running around 14%.

Other choices with similar characteristics of abundant employment, vibrant urban lifestyle, Low to medium cost of living - Raleigh Durham, Katy, Texas, Woodlands , Texas , Fort Collins Colorado, Denver , Colorado, Salt Lake City....

Call the moving van

Good luck

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid

mnnice
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by mnnice » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:55 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:Guys I'm not whining or being negative intentionally. Just stating my concerns. Moving to LCOL sounds awesome except when you think about the practicalities of getting a job and networking. If I can't get a job with my connections in the valley what chance do I have outside the valley. I don't know what it is but I simply cannot seem to be making an impression like I used to. I pride myself in availing of the opportunities available in this great country. Got an education. Never lived off the dole. Invested according to bogleheads principle. I'm hardworking, hands on, zero ego. But none of those things seem to count anymore. I've applied to 175 positions since January. Had one on one meetings with hundreds of contacts. Been to a dozen "new tech" interviews and been turned down everywhere. San Francisco seems such a happening town except when it comes to jobs I simply cannot seem to make the cut. I've been at in person interviews at Uber, Lyft, Splunk, salesforce - all San Francisco based major companies but it's the same response everywhere "you don't have domain experience". At one major internet company I've been turned down three times over the last five years after in person interviews - they must have put me on a black list for some reason. I'm dumb founded as to how I went from a highly sought after candidate to the status of a leper literally overnight. And now that I'm laid off companies will start to lowball on compensation also. As the doors start closing one by one i thought of posting in this forum for ideas. I don't need money (thanks to bogleheads I have enough) but I need a job, an opportunity to prove my self worth. Moving to a lcol location might help stretch savings but I'm not at all confident that it'll help alleviate the job situation. LCOL is LCOL for a reason - namely fewer job opportunities. That's the challenge I set for myself. Not everything is about money. And living off the spouse is extremely shameful in my culture. I don't have a choice now but this is not sustainable. Better hope that Forest was right.
It has been said upthread several times, you don't need a job. You sure as hell don't need a three hour commute. You don't need to hold on to your rent controlled apartment. You could move Iowa City (or Cincinnati or Raleigh or any number of places mentioned .) and be zoned for the best public schools in the state. You could spend more on vacations and groceries. You could buy two new cars. You would still be way ahead.

I get that you and/or your spouse might want to engage in paid employment of some kind but what and how much is up to you. This living off my spouse thing is weird to me too. I have been married for 17 years and we have had every combo of full, part, and no job at all. In a working partnership things are generally in a bit of flux and fair doesn't always mean equal paid employment. If I had someone in my social circle that had as many assets as you at as young an age and I heard he or she was laid off the I would offer congratulations :D :beer. I would research some places, move, and figure out a new career if and when the mood struck. I sure would not be afraid of making less in the new place. I'd be happy to be off the hamster wheel.

visualguy
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by visualguy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:10 am

Isn't just health insurance well over $20K/year and increasing rapidly? Moving to an LCOL area doesn't help with this (maybe makes it worse because of fewer choices). Just various health-related expenses for the rest of life (45+ years) of a 40 year old couple can approach or exceed $2M in today's dollars with various insurance, assisted living, nursing homes, etc. My grandmother was in a nursing home for 6 years with Alzheimer's which cost many hundreds of thousands.

I don't know how a couple can feel comfortable retiring early in the US with a net worth of $2M even in an LCOL area. I know it's considered a lot of money by many, but it just doesn't go very far in this country. Just health care for the family and education for the kids can eat up a fortune.

katnok
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by katnok » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:30 am

OP's reluctance to move to a LCOL is not uncommon, at least not among educated immigrant community.

Having lived in this country for a little over 10 years, and with a good number of friends and family members working in Tech industry, my observation is that folks living in HCOL areas such as Bay Area just can not fathom the idea of having to move out, particularly after living there for a considerable amount of time. Many such folks I know consider this a "failure". Some think the rest of the country is not as diverse, and others think only BA offers the best education for their children. Almost all of them have very high expectations of their children, which they think they are more likely to achieve in BA than elsewhere. It's a cultural thing, at least as far as I can see it.

Perhaps, the OP needs advice in consideration to these factors.

Personally, I have never lived or visited BA, but I have been to most of the East Coast Metros, and I prefer to live in smaller cities. In fact, I live in a town of about 5,000 population, and my feeling after visiting one of these large metros is that life is so much more peaceful in my small town. It's not that the OP has to live a small town, but the point is, you may like a LCOL area as much or even better than Bay Area If you give it a try.

dcabler
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by dcabler » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:45 am

david99 wrote:I knew two computer programmers that became math teachers in their 40's. One got carpal tunnel and the other got laid off. They both enjoy teaching.
Same here - I know of several former tech people here in Austin who became math and/or physics teachers. I also know two other electrical engineers with whom I've worked who have become fee-only CFP's after having taken the course and tests and have started their own businesses. As mentioned in other posts, your background gives you the ability to do many more things than you may at first thought of!

Dude2
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Dude2 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:49 am

Good points are being made about the area. The US is large and diverse. Unemployment rate in general is low. Surely if the OP opened up to a broader market, opportunities abound. The biggest challenge is not really knowing what is behind door number 1. You never really can determine what the job is all about until you have spent at least a month or two in it. This makes it incredibly easy to make an unfortunate decision. You may have to put your toe in the water several times before you find something that you can live with, and, of course, that doesn't look good on paper.

I'm a little older, but I find myself in the opposite situation, newly working for a large defense contractor in legacy code and ten plus year old operating systems and tools. Does this do anything for me long term? No. In fact, putting this stuff on my resume will probably cause a potential employer to put me on the bottom of the pile. However, the work is still challenging and interesting. New people out of school would not touch this stuff. Point being: work like this is out there. You only have to do it for so many more years, and somebody has to do it.

Find something that you can live with, not something that you force yourself to do because it is the "right answer" in the trajectory of your career. Just try to be of value.

A fall-back to a math teacher or something isn't so crazy of an idea. I've heard that the way they make teachers nowadays is more of a science than an art.

dcabler
Posts: 254
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by dcabler » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:00 am

One more thing to consider. In my tech industry (semiconductor), it's become quite common for the older engineers to become project/program managers. Originally it wasn't the case, but now many of the companies are now starting to require a CPM certification - but there are tons of classes to help you prepare for that. One of the reasons for this shift, I think, is because the older workers typically have "seen it all" and are in a very good position to know the effort required to perform tasks and are very willing to call "BS" when it's needed. At least here in Austin there are tons of openings for PM's and many of them are IT-centric. I suspect it's the same in other parts of the country as well. Might be something to consider.

Cheers

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BL
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by BL » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:54 am

katnok wrote:OP's reluctance to move to a LCOL is not uncommon, at least not among educated immigrant community.

Having lived in this country for a little over 10 years, and with a good number of friends and family members working in Tech industry, my observation is that folks living in HCOL areas such as Bay Area just can not fathom the idea of having to move out, particularly after living there for a considerable amount of time. Many such folks I know consider this a "failure". Some think the rest of the country is not as diverse, and others think only BA offers the best education for their children. Almost all of them have very high expectations of their children, which they think they are more likely to achieve in BA than elsewhere. It's a cultural thing, at least as far as I can see it.

Perhaps, the OP needs advice in consideration to these factors.

Personally, I have never lived or visited BA, but I have been to most of the East Coast Metros, and I prefer to live in smaller cities. In fact, I live in a town of about 5,000 population, and my feeling after visiting one of these large metros is that life is so much more peaceful in my small town. It's not that the OP has to live a small town, but the point is, you may like a LCOL area as much or even better than Bay Area If you give it a try.
Not to flay a dead horse, or maybe I am, but middle America is a lot more diverse than many would expect. Here is an example, only because I had seen this article last year:
http://www.inforum.com/news/4022491-doz ... nd-english
Fargo

Through April 25, Fargo's public schools counted 71 languages beyond English that students spoke in their homes. English is the primary language in the homes of 9,814 of the district's 11,163 students. The next largest language group is Nepali, spoken by 224 students, followed by Arabic (173), Somali (152), Spanish (131), English-based Creoles and pidgins (99), Bosnian (81), North American Indian (67), Swahili (63), Vietnamese (56), Chinese (45), French (42) and Dinka (25).
This may not include the many bi-lingual families in technical and medical professions, for instance.

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janiebegood
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by janiebegood » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:17 am

To follow up on BL's post... anecdotally, when my daughter started kindergarten in Cincinnati, OH, one entire section was ESL students, and there were children from 47 different countries who spoke 20+ different languages in her K-4 grade school. The school district included a Procter & Gamble facility with 3000+ employees who came from all over the world.

Galun
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Galun » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:16 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:Guys lets not turn this into a coast versus heartland, red versus blue thing. That was never my intent. There are lots of great companies in the middle of the country (many of them are my customers !!) with lots of great people. But guess what ? They all advice me not to move to the middle of the country looking for a job in IT because most IT "support" type roles in middle america have been gutted by offshored outsourcing. Entire data center operations are being run out of abroad. Most of your advice to relocate to middle america is good but perhaps more applicable to more general careers like physicians, real estate brokers etc. Its true my COL might decrease, but so will my chances of remaining employed for another 10 years (yes I love to work). I think there have been a few posters from folks who work in IT so they can sympathize my plight. To them - thank you for your support even though on an anonymous forum.

Regarding new tech/old tech I've completed a bunch of courses in Coursera on the new tech (and list them on my resume) but the bottom line is - "you don't have domain expertise". I simply can't give up working - if anything I'm addicted to technology and love to build/market/manage products. For the first time in my life I'm realizing that willing to work 100 hours a week with all my expertise is not enough to make it in America.

Regarding interviewing - I don't think its my lack of interviewing skills. I think I can get a job in one of the dying dinosaurs (it'll take them another 4-5 years to die), but with layoffs every 6 months & Huger Games style performance reviews. Believe me, I just came out of one. Entire teams were put on performance improvement plans so that the company doesn't need to pay severance while terminating employees after a couple months. It is brutal hell in "old tech". No job is safe.

Regarding recruiters - I've had terrible luck with them. Absolutely zero success in "new tech". I contacted several of them without any success so far.

Regarding end game - I'm with KlangFool. Keep on working and saving until I can't find a job.

Please keep on sharing ideas. Those of you who asked me to PM for help - I will reach out to you. Many thanks for helping a stranger in need.
You seem to be an extremely bright and high performing individual, whose' self worth was tied to your job. You had tons of patents, generated tons of revenue, led teams, etc. The last 9 months must be brutal on you. You probably saw the writing on the wall that you will be laid off, started looking for jobs ahead of time thinking you will be in demand, getting lots of in personal interview which reaffirmed your view that you would be in demand, and surprisingly you got rejection after rejection. Now, after many rejections, and getting laid off. All of this must have been devastating to your self worth. Yes, you can retire. But you don't want to, I get that. You are 40 and you love to work for your self worth. Looking at your background, I totally understand, and get it.

First, you do not have to worry about money, retirement, or long term prospects. Many have already commented that you will be fine with a withdrawal rate with probably zero failure. It doesn't mean you have to execute on the plan to move to LCOL, or overseas, or whatever. You guys have a rent controlled apartment, your kid(s) are in private schools that they like, and your wife has a stable job as long as she stays in the Bay Area. So, by all means, stay in the Bay Area while you figure out what you want to do. Just KNOW that the option is there if things don't work out in a year or two. You might have drawn down the nest egg a little while you figure all this out. If nothing seems to work after a year or two, then you may execute on plan B and move out or whatever. You are not trapped. This lay off just gave you tremendous freedom to explore!!!

Second, try to attach your self worth to something else. You built up 2 mil by 40, have tons of friends in the industry, got a dozen patents to your name. You created, contributed, and made differences in people's lives, within 20 years out of college. That in itself is already a huge accomplishment for vast majority of people. What else do you have to prove, other than against some goal in your head? I am surprised with your option 1: 3 hour commute for the same old job where you may get laid off in another 2 - 3 years. How would you feel about your self worth then? In the mean time, you would have lost 2 - 3 years worth of commute time, to watching your kids grow up. With 2mm in the bank, why do it?

Third, use this opportunity to really think about what you want to do in life. 40 might be old for tech. But you had built a ton of experience in every aspect of life. And this age is probably one of the most productive years. If you really like to work, you have at least 20 more good years in you. Think about what you have accomplished in the last 20, when you start straight out of college with no experience. What can you accomplish in the next 20 when you are already a seasoned veteran in life? Don't get locked into your old job, or position, or industry. Think about what you really want to do, what drive you, what you are passionate in, and see if there is a way to get into that while making some money. That's what financial independence gives you. You have already achieved FI if you are not set in living in the Bay Area. I bet you will feel a lot more accomplishment and self worth from pursuing this new endeavor, reagardless of whether it succeeds or fails.

I highly suggest reading the book "Designing Your Life". https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-L ... 1101875321

Good luck.

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Jazztonight
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Jazztonight » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:53 pm

janiebegood wrote:To follow up on BL's post... anecdotally, when my daughter started kindergarten in Cincinnati, OH, one entire section was ESL students, and there were children from 47 different countries who spoke 20+ different languages in her K-4 grade school. The school district included a Procter & Gamble facility with 3000+ employees who came from all over the world.
+1
My son lives in Cincinnati. I don't think he's ever made over $40k/yr. Yet he and his wife own a 4Br/3Ba home in an excellent school district where their son goes to public school. The livability, neighborhoods, shopping and restaurants, religious communities--all are great. Lots of cultural opportunities (symphony, museums, etc.), nature, good airport, etc. Sure, it's not the Bay Area, but life's full of little compromises.
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:37 pm

OP,

I get it. I understand your situation. I had been there.

1) I was in the USA and I need to find a job and move back to Asia. I found a job in Asia.

2) I was in Asia during Asian Currency Crisis. I had to move back to the USA and find a job in the USA. I found a job in the USA.

3) A few years later, I had a job in the USA that lets me telecommute from Asia. Then, I was laid off. I have to find a job in the USA while I was in Asia again. I found a job in the USA.

4) I have to find a job across the continent.

5) I was a software developer, Unix System Administrator, Sales Manager, Test Manager, Product Manager, and network engineer.

6) I can solve the technical problem. I know how to sell and market stuff.

7) It is very hard to pigeon hole this kind of person. But, any kind of companies need their problem to be solved and they need to sell and market their stuff. It is just a question of what we would like to do.

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:41 pm

OP,

Old tech versus new tech.

20+ years ago, I was using Sniffer packet analyzer to troubleshoot Oracle Client Server application problem. Now, I am using Wireshark packet analyzer to solve XaaS problem across Hybrid Cloud. In both cases, I need to know TCP/IP very well. So, nothing changes.

KlangFool

aristotelian
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by aristotelian » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:58 pm

fishmonger wrote:This thread has run its course. The OP has an attitude problem more than a financial/employment one, which I'm sure employers are picking up on.

My advice would be to take a deep breath and take some time to regroup. Your thoughts tend to be all over the place. Consider it a luxury to be able to take a step back and evaluate what you really want. In your original post, you said that you would hate to have a 3 hour commute to miss time with your young kids. In another post, you said you would work 100 hours a week - which one is it?

A short-term sabbatical would not hurt your long-term job prospects, but might give you a needed perspective to go forward
I wonder if he has bad references from the previous employer. I don't say this to be mean, only to throw out an explanation for why he hasn't got a new job despite lots of interviews and obviously a bright guy.

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:06 pm

aristotelian wrote:
fishmonger wrote:This thread has run its course. The OP has an attitude problem more than a financial/employment one, which I'm sure employers are picking up on.

My advice would be to take a deep breath and take some time to regroup. Your thoughts tend to be all over the place. Consider it a luxury to be able to take a step back and evaluate what you really want. In your original post, you said that you would hate to have a 3 hour commute to miss time with your young kids. In another post, you said you would work 100 hours a week - which one is it?

A short-term sabbatical would not hurt your long-term job prospects, but might give you a needed perspective to go forward
I wonder if he has bad references from the previous employer. I don't say this to be mean, only to throw out an explanation for why he hasn't got a new job despite lots of interviews and obviously a bright guy.
aristotelian,

Or, this is normal.

1) Once a person had worked for a long time for an employer, it takes a while for a person to take an objective view how he/she may be valued by someone else. This is especially true for someone that is not easily well defined. Aka, multi-talented.

2) There are not many well-paying positions out there. So, it may take a while to find a new one.

3) IMHO, he had been applying to the wrong jobs at the wrong employers. It was not a good fit. Those employers care about new technologies. They do not value experience and exposures.

KlangFool

davidsorensen32
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by davidsorensen32 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:31 am

KlangFool, I hear you. The only problem is jobs in these dying dinosaurs won't allow me to accumulate another 2M in the next 10 years. A job in new tech would. The difference in salary for essentially the same kind of job in new tech (not startups - see below - I mean established new tech) v/s old tech is > $100K. I intend to keep trying on both fronts until I land something in the Bay Area. Already got a couple interviews in old tech (including another team from the same company that laid me off - only catch is I will have to return my prorated severance so I'm not too excited about that). If i can't get something by this time next year I'll quit the Bay Area and look at other options. Thanks everyone for all their inputs. Wish me luck. All the best to my brothers and sisters-in-arms who are going through a similar mid-career crisis. May you live and prosper. If its any consolation to you - one thing I found out - many of the supposedly "hot" startups in San Francisco actually pay next to nothing. Its all one gigantic "happy facade" with very little real money. Hence the voracious thirst to hire twenty somethings who don't know better. They're all waiting for gigantic payouts from their stock options imagining that they're working for the next Google or Facebook. With the minuscule amount of stock options that rank and file employees get I don't know how they're going to make it all up considering all the hours they're putting in, low pay, low benefits and super high COL. It honestly feels a little like the subprime crisis. And we all know how that ended. I don't know how long this ponzi scheme will run. Peace out for now.

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:10 am

davidsorensen32 wrote:KlangFool, I hear you. The only problem is jobs in these dying dinosaurs won't allow me to accumulate another 2M in the next 10 years. A job in new tech would. The difference in salary for essentially the same kind of job in new tech (not startups - see below - I mean established new tech) v/s old tech is > $100K.
davidsorensen32,

1) Your portfolio will grow another 2 million in the next 10 years even if you add nothing to it. You just need a job to cover your annual expense.

<<I mean established new tech) v/s old tech is > $100K. >>

2) Which makes absolutely no difference to you. Please do the math.

A) That additional 100K will be eaten up mostly by the tax.

B) See (1). At this portfolio size, the grow of your portfolio will swarm all new contribution.

Why would you comprise your work life balance for nothing? You are a different person now with 2 million.

KlangFool

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janiebegood
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by janiebegood » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:35 am

David, my question for you is this: Why do you need to accumulate another $2M in ten years? Are you saying your current $2M is not enough? Will $4M be enough? It's a key question to ask yourself: How much is "enough"?

You live to work. Fair enough. My husband also lives to work and attaches a lot of who he is to what he does. But when he was 44, he left a fly-on-the-company-jet level VP position and a 20-year career at a multinational corporation to take a more soul-satisfying job at less than half the pay. He left industry for academic administration, and we've spent the past 8 years living a completely different life. A simpler and in many ways richer life. He walks to work. Our daughter attends the school where he works, so he hasn't missed a play, orchestra performance, or cross-country meet... ever.

I relay our story so you can see that, yes, it is possible to turn 180 degrees. Yes, it's possible to let your stash grow on its own while you earn enough to cover your annual expenses. When I read that you feel your best option is to commute three hours a day to a company where you expect to be laid off again in 2-3 years, well, honestly, it makes me want to cry. You have so many options. SO MANY options. But they do require you to think differently. Instead of just looking straight ahead, look around.

Mike Scott
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Mike Scott » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:44 am

First point to your question... I would do as many have already suggested and "retire". I do happen to live in that desolate mid continental wasteland where many families manage to live fairly well on half your wife's salary (much less the income from your nest egg).

If you need to be a workaholic, this is the perfect time to start that business you mentioned. It will eat up your life and you already have enough money that it does not really matter if it booms or busts.

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Just sayin...
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Just sayin... » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:45 am

I work or have worked at three of the companies on Klang Fool's list linked above. Ageism is a real thing and he might be running into it here. Yes - age 40 is a mental barrier at many of the companies mentioned. Age 50? Virtually unemployable. That said, there are hundreds of opportunities at companies that need competent technologists...outside the valley. There is a genuine need for competent and humble skills. I'd say that, as others have mentioned, OP needs to widen his search to other areas.

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:05 pm

https://aeon.co/essays/how-work-changed ... e-quitters

<< The quitting economy

When employees are treated as short-term assets, they reinvent themselves as marketable goods, always ready to quit>>

OP,

This article might be useful to you.

KlangFool

Xyz214
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Xyz214 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:44 pm

OP, I didn't read through the whole thread but you seem very pessimistic. You can certainly find jobs elsewhere given your tech background and MBA. I'm a developer around your age and I work with a lot of business analysts and project managers who are in late 40's and in 50's. You need to realize your situation is not personal, permanent and pervasive - these are the devils pessimists have to fight with.

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Hyperborea
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Hyperborea » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:16 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:31 pm
TheNightsToCome wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
Hyperborea wrote:I too am a non-US person living in the Bay Area for over 20 years now and I've traveled around the US. There are only a few places in the US that I would consider living for the long term. So, I understand the OP's reluctance to move elsewhere. It's hard to consider living somewhere with fewer amenities. It's even harder as a foreigner living in some of these places that have been suggested. In some of them it might be even more difficult if you are not caucasian or worse are in a mixed race marriage. We have no idea of the OP's situation and some of these places might not be that welcoming of Californians (ever heard the term Kalifornication used in some of these places) never mind foreigners, maybe non-Christians, maybe non-white.
You know we're not talking about small towns deep in rural America here, right? (and even most of those aren't as bad you think).

We're talking about major metropolitan cities with millions of residents, universities, museums, theatres, symphonies, restaurants, parks, art districts, farmer markets, etc.

Near oceans, lakes, mountains, rivers, and forests.

The U.S. is huge, and 90% of Fortune 1000 jobs are outside of Silicon Valley in areas that are quite nice places to live.
I live in a rural midwestern town of < 20,000 with my foreign-born, asian wife. Our good friends are a caucasian and Indian couple (American born, Indian heritage). I work with several immigrants from Africa, multiple Indian immigrants, and multiple muslim immigrants (including women in traditional-type attire). I have multiple clients in black/white marriages.

Hyperborea, you need to get out more.
+1
Maybe a trip to Charlottesville?

Texgal17
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Texgal17 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:12 pm

hightower wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:21 am
davidsorensen32 wrote:Guys, spouse is really attached to the Bay Area because of her line of work. She's apprehensive that she wont be getting an equivalent job (with a pension, great bennies etc.) in other parts of the country. On your suggestions for LCOL - I'm personally completely in favor of it, but am handicapped by my ignorance of life outside the Bay Area. If you have any specific suggestions for employer/location please drop me a quick line. I'll greatly appreciate it. My understanding is that LCOL is a short term mirage - employment opportunities are limited and once you're unemployed it takes a really long time to get your job back. Most of the mid-west is dying rust belt is it not ? Ditto for the southern bible belt cities. Seattle is a bright exception.
Man, you are definitely walking around with blinders on. Look at what your saying..."life outside of the bay area is terrible, there's no other choice but to live in the bay area."
You're thinking too emotionally right now.
Life outside of the bay area is not a mirage. It is not a dying rust belt in anyway, shape, or form!
I'll give you an example....Cincinnati. I live here. We have a booming renaissance happening in our urban core right now. Hundreds of millions of dollars of new economic activity is happening downtown. The surrounding neighborhoods are booming too. There's actually a shortage of housing at the moment because they can't seem to keep up with all the new demand. People are pouring back into the urban core. Big companies like GE and Proctor and Gamble are hiring and looking for talent in and around the city. GE just built a new large office building here in fact. Doesn't sound like a dying rust belt to me. There's also a great music, arts, food, and outdoor recreation scene here. We just opened a brand new streetcar system downtown and there are plans to expand it already. I could go on and on.
It's not San Francisco or NYC, but for people looking to live a good life with relatively low cost of living, it's a great place to be. Especially for families. Cincinnati is not an anomaly either. There are tons of other examples like it all over the country.

My advice would be to take a chill pill first. You're a multimillionaire and you have lot's of good options. Maybe go visit a few cities and scope out some different job prospects and see what the cities are like. You've been living in a bit of a bubble out there in California. Life outside of there is not bad like you've convinced yourself.
Now, if your wife can't be convinced of the need to move, that's a different story. You need to explain to her that financially speaking, you both could be doing much better long term without the high costs of living that you're experiencing now.
Also, as others have said, you technically could afford to let your wife keep working and draw a small percentage from your portfolio while you work a lesser paying job and stay where you're at. I personally don't like that option because I feel like you run the risk of running out of cash if your wife's job disappears or you overspend. Plus, you're young and talented and it shouldn't be difficult for you to adapt nicely to a new environment.
Whatever you choose, best of luck and remember to stay calm. You're in a good position.
+1

qwertyjazz
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by qwertyjazz » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:46 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:05 pm
https://aeon.co/essays/how-work-changed ... e-quitters

<< The quitting economy

When employees are treated as short-term assets, they reinvent themselves as marketable goods, always ready to quit>>

OP,

This article might be useful to you.

KlangFool
The underlying question, OP, is going to sound rather overly intellectual but it is the failure of human capital theory to adequately explain self value.
Check out another aeon essay
https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-cold-war ... tal-theory
Lock that in with Pickett or others that argue for the value of capital
Most of the responses are about how you can afford to retire with a job at Walmart or anything to make a few dollars. But despite both theories, human capital theory has transformed our definition of self worth. We are only happy if we are the creature who deserves to create the income through human capital. Just having enough investments and our family financial well being is not enough. Our identity has become our jobs due to societal changes over the past 50 years
You are the equivalent of the landed gentry with 2 mil of the past. But that just feels wrong in the modern era
I think I misunderstood this responding to a KF post a while back. I also have misunderstood it in my own life. We are a product of our environment that praises human capital.
Good luck and define your own meaning
G.E. Box "All models are wrong, but some are useful."

ny_knicks
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by ny_knicks » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:19 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:43 pm
Built a business from nothing to $1B.
Something is seriously off here. That single bullet on your resume should allow you to find employment at any company in the U.S. I am assuming it wasn't your business but some internal initiative you led. I find it very hard to believe that with this type of experience the "old" vs "new" tech is even relevant. When you have "built $1B business" on your resume, the "technical skills" section shouldn't even be on there. Am I missing something?

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:29 pm

ny_knicks wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:19 pm
davidsorensen32 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:43 pm
Built a business from nothing to $1B.
Something is seriously off here. That single bullet on your resume should allow you to find employment at any company in the U.S. I am assuming it wasn't your business but some internal initiative you led. I find it very hard to believe that with this type of experience the "old" vs "new" tech is even relevant. When you have "built $1B business" on your resume, the "technical skills" section shouldn't even be on there. Am I missing something?
ny_knicks,

<<That single bullet on your resume should allow you to find employment at any company in the U.S.>>

May I ask you why do you think so? Unless the person that interviewed you is the owner of the company, why would he/she want to hire someone that could upstage and replace him or her?

As a hiring manager, your own job security comes first. Why would the person hire someone that is a lot better than him or her? Especially on the business side. The senior technical folks represent little to no threat to the business manager.

KlangFool

TheNightsToCome
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by TheNightsToCome » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:29 pm

Hyperborea wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:16 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:31 pm
TheNightsToCome wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
Hyperborea wrote:I too am a non-US person living in the Bay Area for over 20 years now and I've traveled around the US. There are only a few places in the US that I would consider living for the long term. So, I understand the OP's reluctance to move elsewhere. It's hard to consider living somewhere with fewer amenities. It's even harder as a foreigner living in some of these places that have been suggested. In some of them it might be even more difficult if you are not caucasian or worse are in a mixed race marriage. We have no idea of the OP's situation and some of these places might not be that welcoming of Californians (ever heard the term Kalifornication used in some of these places) never mind foreigners, maybe non-Christians, maybe non-white.
You know we're not talking about small towns deep in rural America here, right? (and even most of those aren't as bad you think).

We're talking about major metropolitan cities with millions of residents, universities, museums, theatres, symphonies, restaurants, parks, art districts, farmer markets, etc.

Near oceans, lakes, mountains, rivers, and forests.

The U.S. is huge, and 90% of Fortune 1000 jobs are outside of Silicon Valley in areas that are quite nice places to live.
I live in a rural midwestern town of < 20,000 with my foreign-born, asian wife. Our good friends are a caucasian and Indian couple (American born, Indian heritage). I work with several immigrants from Africa, multiple Indian immigrants, and multiple muslim immigrants (including women in traditional-type attire). I have multiple clients in black/white marriages.

Hyperborea, you need to get out more.
+1
Maybe a trip to Charlottesville?
That cinches it. You had better stay in the Bay area.

inbox788
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by inbox788 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:06 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:29 pm
ny_knicks wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:19 pm
davidsorensen32 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:43 pm
Built a business from nothing to $1B.
Something is seriously off here. That single bullet on your resume should allow you to find employment at any company in the U.S. I am assuming it wasn't your business but some internal initiative you led. I find it very hard to believe that with this type of experience the "old" vs "new" tech is even relevant. When you have "built $1B business" on your resume, the "technical skills" section shouldn't even be on there. Am I missing something?
ny_knicks,

<<That single bullet on your resume should allow you to find employment at any company in the U.S.>>

May I ask you why do you think so? Unless the person that interviewed you is the owner of the company, why would he/she want to hire someone that could upstage and replace him or her?

As a hiring manager, your own job security comes first. Why would the person hire someone that is a lot better than him or her? Especially on the business side. The senior technical folks represent little to no threat to the business manager.

KlangFool
Also, what is a billion dollar business? While impressive, it's far more impressive if it was a billion dollars profit or valuation. Some low margin businesses or sales or other measure of a billion dollars is sometimes not that unusual. A hedge fund with a billion AUM is not that unusual. And top performing high end or commercial real estate sales folks can rack up a billion in sales. Sometimes these are repeatable or require skills. Other times is just good luck or timing. And I assume salary requirements are quite high as well, so opportunity limited, since many are not going to be sufficiently payworthy.

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Hawaiishrimp
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by Hawaiishrimp » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:15 pm

Here's my suggestion:

1. Relocate outside of the Bay Area but stay in the US. Look for jobs you like to spend time on. Be it "Tech" or Not Tech. Doesn't matter what that is as long as you enjoy doing it.

2. Cut down annual spending big time.

Once you have less burden on spending, you will feel like you can breath again.
I save and invest my money, so money can make money for me, so I don't have to make money eventually.

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White Coat Investor
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by White Coat Investor » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:25 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:44 am
WCI, love your blog ! There is an incorrect assumption in your maths. 85k is gross. It's more like 65k after taxes. My assumptions are more like I need 3.5% withdrawal which is cutting it too close.
My point is if you're not there, you're very close and can make the difference easily in any of several ways. If you need $20K more in income, it's pretty easy to find a job that will pay that. Or your spouse can keep working, or you can cut expenses, or you can move or whatever. You have tons of options.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

simas
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by simas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:50 pm

Guys (and girls) - the problem is that you are trying to talk rationally to topicstarter (OP) and it is pointless as he is still in shock from layoff.
Thus the depression , the Eeyore donkey attitude (glum, sarcastic and pessimistic), and rejection of reality staring in the face. until that shock passes , along with other stages of grief, it is pointless to talk to such person, everything would be wrong, everything is impossible, nothing is ever good, any job is just an invitation for future layoff, and we all die in the end attitude..

no problem with that, been there, done that, went through this myself a year ago and now think it is one of the best things that happened to me.
Let us just wait


Once he is really to talk seriously, some sense could be talked into him
- little assets . BS! you have way more than 99% of the country in terms of assets. please don't bring this up again to whine and expect to be taken seriously
- low pay . Just your wife alone is what twice the median personal income. BS again
- 2 million will allow you to retire easily NOW if you can get your crazy expenses under control or GTFO of that area (or both)
- status is what drags you down (we 'need' kids activities, private schools, etc). no you don't need any of that
- status seeking stupidity is what hurts you the most when looking for the job ( I 'need' at least X, at least that level, etc). no, you don't - you just limit yourself without reason.
- yes, life exists out of SFBA and Kali in general and life is booming. the world does not end there
- there is enormous amount of diversity everywhere and people treat you as you treat them.


Let us know when you are done processing the shock (could be few months) and come back for real help when you are ready to hear it. If you are still depressed after few months, seek help, a lot of us went through job changes, and it is normal part of your career.

ellvizzle
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by ellvizzle » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:25 pm

mak1277 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:39 am
Why do you have to work for a tech company?

Pretty much every company in every industry has an IT department....and it's not easy to find good candidates for upper level positions. With your tech background **and** an MBA, I would think you'd be a very attractive candidate for a myriad of companies, both big and small, all over the country.
This! I work in a data and research division at a state gov agency--it's actually often pretty challenging for us to find good candidates with a technical background. Government is likely a pay cut, but good benefits, hours, pto, etc.

ny_knicks
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by ny_knicks » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:33 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:29 pm
May I ask you why do you think so? Unless the person that interviewed you is the owner of the company, why would he/she want to hire someone that could upstage and replace him or her?

As a hiring manager, your own job security comes first. Why would the person hire someone that is a lot better than him or her? Especially on the business side. The senior technical folks represent little to no threat to the business manager.

KlangFool
Come on now this guys interviewed for 9 months and all the interviews said "no way can't hire him...he's too good. We don't want someone joining us whose built a billion dollar business." Might be the case if he's interviewing for positions he's grossly overqualified for but I doubt thats the case. He should be interviewing with executive teams not a mid-level software engineering manager.
inbox788 wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:06 pm
Also, what is a billion dollar business? While impressive, it's far more impressive if it was a billion dollars profit or valuation. Some low margin businesses or sales or other measure of a billion dollars is sometimes not that unusual. A hedge fund with a billion AUM is not that unusual. And top performing high end or commercial real estate sales folks can rack up a billion in sales. Sometimes these are repeatable or require skills. Other times is just good luck or timing. And I assume salary requirements are quite high as well, so opportunity limited, since many are not going to be sufficiently payworthy.
No idea what a billion dollar business is in the OPs definition. OP works in tech so your examples are irrelevant (unless there's more to the story).

If the OP is talking pure valuation then he is true pioneer in the tech space. In tech a private startup with a valuation in excess of $1 billion is consider a "unicorn". Google shows there is approximately 250 "unicorns". Uber and AirBnB are unicorns. Someone who built one of these isn't having issues finding a job.

If the OP is talking $1B in revenue, well that would be even more impressive. Most tech companies struggle with monetizing technology. A lot of these "unicorn" companies w/ valuations in excess of $1 billion can't even turn $100 million in revenue. SNAP, while no longer a unicorn since its IPO, had a measly $463 million in revenue in 2016 but a valuation of $16B. So yes a tech startup turning a billion in sales is quite unusual, low margin or not.

What I am saying is no matter how you spin it, someone saying they've turned a business from nothing to $1 billion should get a lot of attention in the job market.

KlangFool
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by KlangFool » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:48 pm

ny_knicks wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:33 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:29 pm
May I ask you why do you think so? Unless the person that interviewed you is the owner of the company, why would he/she want to hire someone that could upstage and replace him or her?

As a hiring manager, your own job security comes first. Why would the person hire someone that is a lot better than him or her? Especially on the business side. The senior technical folks represent little to no threat to the business manager.

KlangFool
Come on now this guys interviewed for 9 months and all the interviews said "no way can't hire him...he's too good. We don't want someone joining us whose built a billion dollar business." Might be the case if he's interviewing for positions he's grossly overqualified for but I doubt thats the case. He should be interviewing with executive teams not a mid-level software engineering manager.
ny_knicks,

1) You do not apply for an executive level position. Either you are recruited or you do not get to see anyone.

2) Let's assume that you are correct, my statement still applies.

KlangFool

brito11
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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by brito11 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:49 pm

I thought data scientist was one of the new emerging "hot" jobs out there...and now it's old tech? OP, can you clarify this?

I currently work for one of the big tech dinosaurs, and I would agree with you OP that you don't want to be looking at jobs in the Bay area with these companies. Mine doesn't. I've also gotten the feeling that age discrimination is in play at the trendy ones...

As other posters have stated, I believe you need to look outside of the Bay area. I know for a fact that in Atlanta at least, there are plenty of companies looking for people like with a very decent compensation for the South.

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Re: Life at crossroads. What would you do ?

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:07 pm

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