How much money do you want to retire?

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wrongfunds
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:05 am

smitcat wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:25 am
Snuffycuts99 wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:00 pm
wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:42 pm
DR wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:38 am
kd2008 wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:11 am
Either I live in a bubble where I see people retire with few hundred thousand dollars to their name or this thread is a demonstration that people know lot about investing and literally nothing about retiring ... :?
I hear ya! I'm often baffled by a lot of this kind of talk. I don't feel poor at all. Indeed, I feel quite wealthy and look around me and see that I have more to spend than most of my friends etc. Wealth is relative I suppose. When I semi-retire in 2019 my total accumulation of retirement and taxable accounts will be about 850K in 2018 dollars. This model assumes 2.5% inflation and an average 4% nominal return on my 850K and provides me an even living standard from age 61-100 of 85K per year in inflation-adjusted 2018 dollars, that is, 85K remaining to spend after I've paid federal and state taxes, Medicare B, property tax and insurance (I have not mortgage), and annual premium for health insurance continuation til I hit 65 and enroll in Medicare. I think not having a mortgage helps me a lot, and the extra credits by pushing SS off til 70 for both me and spouse is a huge bonus behind this 85,000 of annual discretionary spending. Granted, 850K is not the "few hundred thousand" you refer to KD2008, but it's not the millions described in the thread above either. I'm counting the total my wife and I have together. Again, I suppose many people would despair if they had to live on 85K of discretionary spending.
I must have missed this reply back in April. Can somebody explain how it is possible to get
that is, 85K remaining to spend [per year] after I've paid federal and state taxes, Medicare B, property tax and insurance (I have not mortgage), and annual premium for health insurance continuation til I hit 65 and enroll in Medicare.
from having $850K in assets.
Yea, I'm not following that. He'd be looking at over 2 mil to pull 85k per year. Pension not mentioned?
I am pretty sure he is filling in the difference with SS. Dependent upon their ages and work history this would be quite doable.
Please notice the highlighted part to see why that is NOT the case. It is even more baffling when it is being claimed that 85,000 discretionary spending after taxes etc! Math does not work but hey more power to him if he is able to bypass basic math.

Dottie57
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by Dottie57 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:15 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:05 am
smitcat wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:25 am
Snuffycuts99 wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:00 pm
wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:42 pm
DR wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:38 am


I hear ya! I'm often baffled by a lot of this kind of talk. I don't feel poor at all. Indeed, I feel quite wealthy and look around me and see that I have more to spend than most of my friends etc. Wealth is relative I suppose. When I semi-retire in 2019 my total accumulation of retirement and taxable accounts will be about 850K in 2018 dollars. This model assumes 2.5% inflation and an average 4% nominal return on my 850K and provides me an even living standard from age 61-100 of 85K per year in inflation-adjusted 2018 dollars, that is, 85K remaining to spend after I've paid federal and state taxes, Medicare B, property tax and insurance (I have not mortgage), and annual premium for health insurance continuation til I hit 65 and enroll in Medicare. I think not having a mortgage helps me a lot, and the extra credits by pushing SS off til 70 for both me and spouse is a huge bonus behind this 85,000 of annual discretionary spending. Granted, 850K is not the "few hundred thousand" you refer to KD2008, but it's not the millions described in the thread above either. I'm counting the total my wife and I have together. Again, I suppose many people would despair if they had to live on 85K of discretionary spending.
I must have missed this reply back in April. Can somebody explain how it is possible to get
that is, 85K remaining to spend [per year] after I've paid federal and state taxes, Medicare B, property tax and insurance (I have not mortgage), and annual premium for health insurance continuation til I hit 65 and enroll in Medicare.
from having $850K in assets.
Yea, I'm not following that. He'd be looking at over 2 mil to pull 85k per year. Pension not mentioned?
I am pretty sure he is filling in the difference with SS. Dependent upon their ages and work history this would be quite doable.
Please notice the highlighted part to see why that is NOT the case. It is even more baffling when it is being claimed that 85,000 discretionary spending after taxes etc! Math does not work but hey more power to him if he is able to bypass basic math.
I cannot see using 10% per year of your nest egg.

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JamalJones
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Re: How much money do you need to retire?

Post by JamalJones » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:28 am

Meg77 wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:02 am
I'm 33 and husband is 39 and we need $3MM to retire in 5-7 years (plus to have paid off all debts including rental property mortgages). Target is to have $150k a year when we retire (not including social security income which would kick in later and be used for increased healthcare costs as we age). We don't *need* that much of course, but if we are going to retire early from jobs we enjoy more or less, I don't want to have to be watching every dollar or limiting giving or travel. I'd rather work longer and be able to spend more freely.

I don't know that we will actually pull the trigger and quit when our portfolio hits $3MM, but we could. Problem is we won't be debt free by then, so we'd have to draw down much more than a 4% withdrawal rate at first from taxable investments, which makes me uncomfortable and heightens the sequence of returns risk (then once our mortgages are gone 10-15 years later we could dramatically lower our withdrawal rate). Alternately we could pay off debt first before investing more in taxable, but our mortgages are so cheap that doesn't really make sense.
You sound uncertain. Better you both should work a good 10 more years before you "retire".
TSP + Vanguard Roth IRA + Vanguard Taxable: 80% equities / 20% bonds | Yap, yap, yap, yap, - the bottom line is ya gotta buckle up the chin strap!

wrongfunds
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:33 am

It is not JUST the 10% of the nest egg, but rather that 10% of the nest egg is paying for only the discretionary expenses! That means to cover the full expenses, lot more than 10% of the nest egg per year has to be spent.

I suspect, he dropped a zero in the calculations as that is the only thing which would make even some resemblance of sense. But still being able to have $8500 left over for discretionary spending seems to be very difficult if you only have total of $34000 in annual income (aka 4% of 850,000).

Obviously, that person has made a huge mistake. The most unfortunate part is that he has NO idea on how wrong he is.
Last edited by wrongfunds on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

smitcat
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:33 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:05 am
smitcat wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:25 am
Snuffycuts99 wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:00 pm
wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:42 pm
DR wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:38 am


I hear ya! I'm often baffled by a lot of this kind of talk. I don't feel poor at all. Indeed, I feel quite wealthy and look around me and see that I have more to spend than most of my friends etc. Wealth is relative I suppose. When I semi-retire in 2019 my total accumulation of retirement and taxable accounts will be about 850K in 2018 dollars. This model assumes 2.5% inflation and an average 4% nominal return on my 850K and provides me an even living standard from age 61-100 of 85K per year in inflation-adjusted 2018 dollars, that is, 85K remaining to spend after I've paid federal and state taxes, Medicare B, property tax and insurance (I have not mortgage), and annual premium for health insurance continuation til I hit 65 and enroll in Medicare. I think not having a mortgage helps me a lot, and the extra credits by pushing SS off til 70 for both me and spouse is a huge bonus behind this 85,000 of annual discretionary spending. Granted, 850K is not the "few hundred thousand" you refer to KD2008, but it's not the millions described in the thread above either. I'm counting the total my wife and I have together. Again, I suppose many people would despair if they had to live on 85K of discretionary spending.
I must have missed this reply back in April. Can somebody explain how it is possible to get
that is, 85K remaining to spend [per year] after I've paid federal and state taxes, Medicare B, property tax and insurance (I have not mortgage), and annual premium for health insurance continuation til I hit 65 and enroll in Medicare.
from having $850K in assets.
Yea, I'm not following that. He'd be looking at over 2 mil to pull 85k per year. Pension not mentioned?
I am pretty sure he is filling in the difference with SS. Dependent upon their ages and work history this would be quite doable.
Please notice the highlighted part to see why that is NOT the case. It is even more baffling when it is being claimed that 85,000 discretionary spending after taxes etc! Math does not work but hey more power to him if he is able to bypass basic math.
FWIW - I certainly have no idea whet he is doing or thinking. This past post by Dr seems to indicate that he is including SS and uses words somewhat interchangeably….

Re: Kotlikoff: When Should you Take Social Security?
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by DR » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:26 pm
For the sake of our discussion I reran my ESPlanner reports to compare my household SS at 62 instead of 70 (with file/suspend).

There's a 5 year age difference between my wife and I.

If we both take at age 62 I would have to pay a 15,045 earnings deduction my first year at age 62 (ouch!) and then from the next year on our combined SS would be $41,045 every year of our life, in today's dollars, through age 100.

If we delay til age 70, I get a spousal benefit of $10,099 for four years as I approach age 70. Then when we both are at full benefit our combined household benefit is $69,167. That's $28,122 in today's dollars every year of our life beginning at age my age 70 through age 100 more than had we begun at age 62.

So in short:

* SS at age 62, household SS benefit is $41,045
* SS at age 70, household SS benefit is $69,167

Viewed from the perspective of consumption smoothing done by the calculator, let's compare the impact of this basically risk-free move on annual household discretionary spending. I'm 57 and I'll run it through age 100 comparing the household discretionary spending we'd have if we delay SS til age 70 with what we'd have if we take SS at 62:

* SS at 62, discretionary household spending is 69,552 in today's dollars for the next 43 years.
* SS at 70, discretionary household spending is 82,723 in today's dollars for the next 43 years.

To put this in perspective, delaying til 70 is the equivalent of getting a non-taxable one-time receipt worth about $525,000 this year.

I view this as a dramatic difference in my living standard, and this difference is why people that are willing to plan, plan. This is why it's worth thinking about and running some numbers. This analysis took me 15 minutes (granted I already had my base case established so I just needed to change the SS strategy to compare).

These are not "estimates" regarding SS. These are numbers that unless my future income changes over the next five years, will be accurate to the dollar. Granted, my future income could change of course. I'm just saying the numbers aren't grossly hypothetical.

I'm always amazed at people that have no interest in planning or learning how simple, in this case, no-cost decisions, could change their living standard for many, many years. In this case, it's 43 years of an inflation-adjusted $13,171 of annual extra household discretionary spending just by rearranging how I draw down my regular and retirement assets relative to Social Security. Hey, I would probably go to the "trouble" of doing this if it were just one year. But it's 43 years of an extra $13K per year with COLA adjustments! (Assuming I live til 100 . . . but you get my point I hope).

I once had a financial planner tell me (back when I tried that 15 years ago) that his numbers didn't include SS and that if we got that we'd view it as icing on the cake. I still can't believe he said that.

LiterallyIronic
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:45 am

My goal is to retire at 50 with $600,000 and a paid off house. No pension. If I get SS, that'd just be a bonus. I should be able to get by on a 4% or less SWR on that.

wrongfunds
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:56 am

I tried to run his numbers but I could not get to tally up. I assumed he was illustrating LiveSoft's classic topic where he shows how by delaying SS benefits for *later*, one can have more money to spend *now* AND *later*.

All numbers are done in real.

His total SS benefits at 70 are $69167 His total spending from 70 inwards is $82773. Subtraction gives $13,606 which needs to be supported by the invest-able assets. 4% implies he needs to have $340,150 assets left over at age 70.

To be able to support $82773 for years 62-70, he needs 82773 x 8 = $662,184

Thus at age 62 he needs to have $340,150 + $662,184 = $1,002,334

I have no idea where the $850K number came from.

smitcat
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:57 am

LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:45 am
My goal is to retire at 50 with $600,000 and a paid off house. No pension. If I get SS, that'd just be a bonus. I should be able to get by on a 4% or less SWR on that.
Power to you --- we have much too many things we want to continue to do in retirement. Everyone is different for sure.

smitcat
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:01 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:56 am
I tried to run his numbers but I could not get to tally up. I assumed he was illustrating LiveSoft's classic topic where he shows how by delaying SS benefits for *later*, one can have more money to spend *now* AND *later*.

All numbers are done in real.

His total SS benefits at 70 are $69167 His total spending from 70 inwards is $82773. Subtraction gives $13,606 which needs to be supported by the invest-able assets. 4% implies he needs to have $340,150 assets left over at age 70.

To be able to support $82773 for years 62-70, he needs 82773 x 8 = $662,184

Thus at age 62 he needs to have $340,150 + $662,184 = $1,002,334

I have no idea where the $850K number came from.
I agree ,maybe his plan is to retire at 65. In any case I agree with you that there is no magic so hopefully his wording is just confusing to us.

marcopolo
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by marcopolo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:06 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:56 am
I tried to run his numbers but I could not get to tally up. I assumed he was illustrating LiveSoft's classic topic where he shows how by delaying SS benefits for *later*, one can have more money to spend *now* AND *later*.

All numbers are done in real.

His total SS benefits at 70 are $69167 His total spending from 70 inwards is $82773. Subtraction gives $13,606 which needs to be supported by the invest-able assets. 4% implies he needs to have $340,150 assets left over at age 70.

To be able to support $82773 for years 62-70, he needs 82773 x 8 = $662,184

Thus at age 62 he needs to have $340,150 + $662,184 = $1,002,334

I have no idea where the $850K number came from.
Perhaps he assumes some (real) growth in the years between now and SS? The $340k needed at 70, is not $340k now, if you assume some growth.
The $662k needed spread over the 8 years is not $662k today, if you assume some growth.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

CarpeDiem22
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by CarpeDiem22 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:33 am

benign_user wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:20 am
How much money do you want to retire? Please also state your age. Also assume your pensions will be zero.
Just about 220K (2018 USD). I'm 31. And yes my pension will be zero or close to it with no social security plan from the government. (Welcome to the Third World).

latesaver
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Re: How much money do you need to retire?

Post by latesaver » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:58 am

Lieutenant.Columbo wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:47 am
snowblinded wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:50 pm
in my twenties, $1M seemed enough. At 40, I thought $4M would do. At 50, it started looking like $10M to retire early, or keep working to hold health insurance to avoid catastrophe. But I'm the kind of person who needs a buffer...
Momus wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:08 am
Can't retire on $4M, 10M lmao!? Clearly you are spending way too much imo. Nice to be balling hard.
He's the kind of person who needs a buffer...
this is a great post. even better when read as if Lt. Columbo was speaking w/ a cigar in his mouth.

rantk81
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by rantk81 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:41 pm

No clue how much I need to retire.

Currently 37, married, 1.3m invested in stock market, paid off home.

If I had a crystal ball to tell me what the future holds for health care and health insurance costs in this country, I could potentially retire now. In the meantime, I continue to work.

kd2008
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by kd2008 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:14 pm

rantk81 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:41 pm
No clue how much I need to retire.

Currently 37, married, 1.3m invested in stock market, paid off home.

If I had a crystal ball to tell me what the future holds for health care and health insurance costs in this country, I could potentially retire now. In the meantime, I continue to work.
I am in similar situation as you - 37 and married. About 1m invested in stock market and 50k left on mortgage debt. Close enough to be FI.

I too would like stability with regards to healthcare market - with both coverage and cost.

This political football is tiresome. In my state premiums we're supposed to drop 15% but instead are going to increase 5% because CSR payments were discontinued.

If I had some handle on healthcare cost then it would be easier to contemplate early retirement.

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TierArtz
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by TierArtz » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:27 pm

I'm 57 and want retirement funds equal to 40X annual expenses(including current college savings for three kids and estimated taxes) after current and secure passive income = 3.1M. I'm presently at 34X and considering my present saving rate (32% of gross) and personal historical returns, I should hit my number in 2020. But, DW would probably be happier and feel safer about me retiring around age 62 (50X+).

jgdsss
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by jgdsss » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:36 pm

Are you speaking in terms of just “you” or is it “we” as in yourself and spouse? If you need 2million, does that assume that that’s total for your family unit?

michaeljc70
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:44 pm

MathWizard wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:34 pm
1.2 can retire,
1.5 million will retire.
+1

edgeagg
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Re: How much money do you need to retire?

Post by edgeagg » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:08 pm

snowblinded wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:50 pm

When I was in my twenties, $1M seemed enough. At 40, I thought $4M would do. At 50, it started looking like $10M to retire early, or keep working to hold health insurance to avoid catastrophe. But I'm the kind of person who needs a buffer...
So what happened between ages 40 and 50 to cause your required portfolio to bloat by 5M. Your expenses increase by $200K annually? That'd be an interesting midlife crisis... :sharebeer

cantabtim
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by cantabtim » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:21 pm

Looking to retire end of 2019 when I will be 56 and my spouse 55, with about $3M. We'd do it now but retiree healthcare where he works is available only once you are 55 (and have put in 25 years of service, which he already has). We have no children, the condo is long ago paid off and cheap to run, and living in the city we don't own or need a car. We do spend more that most on eating out, and European vacations but you pays your money and takes your choice.......

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ofcmetz
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by ofcmetz » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:32 pm

I'm close now at age 39, but only because I work for the government with a generous pension and retirement healthcare. I'm looking at leaving in a few years with a pension of 70K a year, subsidized healthcare and a high 6 figure portfolio. I figure this will make me financially independent, but I doubt I'll really retire in my early 40's. I'll actually probably do something part time because my wife will continue to work until at least until we get the kids get through college.

One of my buddies just retired from the same job at age 47 with similar benefits but no investments. He's already got several part time things producing income so it seems he will do just fine. It's kind of got me inspired watching him go through the process.
Never underestimate the power of the force of low cost index funds.

LiterallyIronic
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:56 pm

smitcat wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:57 am
LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:45 am
My goal is to retire at 50 with $600,000 and a paid off house. No pension. If I get SS, that'd just be a bonus. I should be able to get by on a 4% or less SWR on that.
Power to you --- we have much too many things we want to continue to do in retirement. Everyone is different for sure.
Indeed, different strokes for different folks. I would like to visit Europe some day, but hopefully before I'm retired. The recent thread of "did you have something to retire to" just wasn't for me. I want to retire to nothing. Sleep in, surf the Internet, play some video games, watch some TV, go to bed. A cheap, quiet bliss.

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3wood
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by 3wood » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm

After reading through this interesting thread it occurred to me that a better question would have been what are your expected retirement expenses and what sources of income will you use to cover them. There are so many different ways to get there.
I replied on the 2nd page of this thread that I needed 4 million to cover an anticipated $150k/yr spending. That is still true but not complete. I will need to be debt free and half my current property tax expense by downsizing. I am envious of those receiving pensions that are equal to a couple of million in portfolio $. The closest I’ll get is social security which I plan to delay and use it like longevity insurance.
Real estate is another interesting way but not in the cards for me.
Maybe a combo of different sources of retirement income is best as another way of diversifying.

Starfish
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by Starfish » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:49 pm

I find it fascinating how many people are willing to give up healthy good quality healthy years to gain better quality long term care, like it matters when you are a vegetable.
The major problem seems to be "But what if I live a long and miserable life, paralyzed in a bed! I have to give quality life now to make more money for that probability so I can get better expensive care so I can spend more in time in that bed!".
It's completely irrational.
And why is suicide not an option? it seem to be the rational thing to do at least in extreme cases. It's not even brought up. Of course, one might not remember :D

The other thing is "I live bad now because I have grandiose plans for my life in retirement, when I will old, sick, and fragile". It sounds like the opposite of a good plan.
The entire retirement thing has the issue with deferred happiness. You try to do as little as possible now, move your plans to retirement when you could be dead, sick, physically or psychologically unable to follow them.

ON: For me the plan was 2.5 million, retiring before 50, moving to a cheaper country where I could live at 2-3%. But I am not so sure anymore. I have a kid and we have to make sure we judge very well the impact on his life.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:02 pm

bradshaw1965 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:00 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:40 am
Think healthcare and end of life nursing care. You think insurance picks up everything or is without substantial cost? You can purchase a lower benefit if you wish but given choice many will not opt for it.
Having dealt with a little too much end of life care for parents and loved ones recently, money doesn't seem to be the real difference maker but direct human interaction with caregivers and the associated network makes a huge difference. I know there are really bad outcomes and situations but I'd put my chips in with a caring group of friends and family over the best and most expensive CCRC any day.
True, in the absence of that group of people- family (some are not as fortunate to have living relatives) and friends may be geographically far or have their own issues then the next best option requires money.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

bradshaw1965
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by bradshaw1965 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:18 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:02 pm
bradshaw1965 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:00 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:40 am
Think healthcare and end of life nursing care. You think insurance picks up everything or is without substantial cost? You can purchase a lower benefit if you wish but given choice many will not opt for it.
Having dealt with a little too much end of life care for parents and loved ones recently, money doesn't seem to be the real difference maker but direct human interaction with caregivers and the associated network makes a huge difference. I know there are really bad outcomes and situations but I'd put my chips in with a caring group of friends and family over the best and most expensive CCRC any day.
True, in the absence of that group of people- family (some are not as fortunate to have living relatives) and friends may be geographically far or have their own issues then the next best option requires money.
All true. Smart to cover your bases and the subject is never going to be an easy one.

SQRT
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by SQRT » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:23 am

visualguy wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:41 pm
DavidRoseMountain wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:58 pm
It seems like no one is ever really content with what they have - as soon as they reach a huge amount of net worth for retirement, I see people moving the goalpost further out.
Right, but there are good reasons for that.

There is a lot of uncertainty around health care and long-term care. The older people get, the more they realize how problematic that could potentially be, so they tend to move the goalposts with time as they realize that this is more serious than they thought. Also, those costs grow faster than inflation, which contributes further to the moving of the goalposts.

Another reason is that many want some "fun money" for retirement. More frequent and more luxurious travel, maybe buy a sports car or a boat, etc. It's nice to have some extra money to go with all that extra time in retirement. Just a few extra years of work can make the difference between simply comfortable existence in retirement to being able to live it up. It's hard to estimate the amount for this, and many people develop more expensive tastes, interests, hobbies, and habits as they age, so again the goalposts get moved.

Yet another reason is that there's the desire to help others (mostly family, but even outside the family). This also tends to develop with time. Not something you necessarily think about much during the earlier years. Again, this moves the goalposts.
Agree with this. Reflects our retirement spending, other than health care issues(we are Canadians). We ended up with quite a bit more than we thought we needed but through a little “creativity” and generosity have put the extra funds to good use. My pension currently represents about 40% of our spending with dividends and small stock liquidations covering the rest. Only started liquidating in the past couple years when it became obvious the portfolio would support higher spending. Dividends have just about doubled since retiring 12 years ago.

At some point though, you just have to “put the pin in” and spend according to what you have saved.
Last edited by SQRT on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

jehovasfitness
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by jehovasfitness » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:43 am

LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:56 pm
smitcat wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:57 am
LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:45 am
My goal is to retire at 50 with $600,000 and a paid off house. No pension. If I get SS, that'd just be a bonus. I should be able to get by on a 4% or less SWR on that.
Power to you --- we have much too many things we want to continue to do in retirement. Everyone is different for sure.
Indeed, different strokes for different folks. I would like to visit Europe some day, but hopefully before I'm retired. The recent thread of "did you have something to retire to" just wasn't for me. I want to retire to nothing. Sleep in, surf the Internet, play some video games, watch some TV, go to bed. A cheap, quiet bliss.
This is my thoughts. I'd rather do most things now while younger even if that means saving less now but that means needing less later.

Most vacations I want to take involve being active and that's better while somewhat younger.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by jehovasfitness » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:44 am

3wood wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm
After reading through this interesting thread it occurred to me that a better question would have been what are your expected retirement expenses and what sources of income will you use to cover them. There are so many different ways to get there.
I replied on the 2nd page of this thread that I needed 4 million to cover an anticipated $150k/yr spending. That is still true but not complete. I will need to be debt free and half my current property tax expense by downsizing. I am envious of those receiving pensions that are equal to a couple of million in portfolio $. The closest I’ll get is social security which I plan to delay and use it like longevity insurance.
Real estate is another interesting way but not in the cards for me.
Maybe a combo of different sources of retirement income is best as another way of diversifying.
Can you elaborate what you will be spending the 150k/yr on if debt free?

GeoffD
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by GeoffD » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:07 am

I’m a career high earner. I restructured my life so I’m ok with $0 at age 70 when I start collecting a near-max Social Security check. $43,524 per year. I’ve been divorced twice. That “life happens” stuff puts a big dent in your net worth. I’m 60 now. Paid for house with relatively low ownership costs. Not counting my house, my net worth is $750k. I’m 60. My “Geoff never works again” spreadsheet says I’d have to downsize the sailboat to cut operating costs and eventually sell the townhouse ski condo that has high ownership costs. I can spend a COLA-adjusted $50k forever and not run out of money. I can still ski all winter and sail-beach-bicycle in the summer. I can still travel. To retire at 65 and not take a break in lifestyle, $1 million plus my house does it.

My girlfriend is also a career high earner. If we both defer collecting Social Security until age 70, our combined income is north of $80k. We’d be fine with $0 then and a paid for home. It gets more lean if one of us dies but that’s cutting discretionary spending.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:22 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:43 am
LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:56 pm
smitcat wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:57 am
LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:45 am
My goal is to retire at 50 with $600,000 and a paid off house. No pension. If I get SS, that'd just be a bonus. I should be able to get by on a 4% or less SWR on that.
Power to you --- we have much too many things we want to continue to do in retirement. Everyone is different for sure.
Indeed, different strokes for different folks. I would like to visit Europe some day, but hopefully before I'm retired. The recent thread of "did you have something to retire to" just wasn't for me. I want to retire to nothing. Sleep in, surf the Internet, play some video games, watch some TV, go to bed. A cheap, quiet bliss.
This is my thoughts. I'd rather do most things now while younger even if that means saving less now but that means needing less later.

Most vacations I want to take involve being active and that's better while somewhat younger.
I did 'most'' things when I was younger and now do 'most' things that I am older. We plan to do most all of these when I get even older until maybe 80's when we will likely be less active. We can list at least 3 dozen activities that we do and or will do that would be much more fun with the ability to spend a little money. For us $24K will likely just about cover insurances in retirement - health, car, home. LTC, etc.
But ,,,,everyone is different and everyone has a different plan.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:44 am
3wood wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm
After reading through this interesting thread it occurred to me that a better question would have been what are your expected retirement expenses and what sources of income will you use to cover them. There are so many different ways to get there.
I replied on the 2nd page of this thread that I needed 4 million to cover an anticipated $150k/yr spending. That is still true but not complete. I will need to be debt free and half my current property tax expense by downsizing. I am envious of those receiving pensions that are equal to a couple of million in portfolio $. The closest I’ll get is social security which I plan to delay and use it like longevity insurance.
Real estate is another interesting way but not in the cards for me.
Maybe a combo of different sources of retirement income is best as another way of diversifying.
Can you elaborate what you will be spending the 150k/yr on if debt free?
I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.

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Cycle
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by Cycle » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:31 am

35. 4MM in todays dollars, which will likely be 5MM 10-15 years from now when I hopefully will have reached that goal.

I need less than I already have, using 4% SAWR.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by The Wizard » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:34 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am
...I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.
Similar for me, the proportions anyway. Good if you can keep core/basic expenses to less than half of total income, thus allowing much freer expression of optional activities.
I'm scoping out a European river cruise for a year from now and that's going to cost a few bucks...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:45 am

The Wizard wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:34 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am
...I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.
Similar for me, the proportions anyway. Good if you can keep core/basic expenses to less than half of total income, thus allowing much freer expression of optional activities.
I'm scoping out a European river cruise for a year from now and that's going to cost a few bucks...
Yes - the proportions are what I was posting not necessarily the actual finite numbers. Over time our plans have become segmented as far as expenses as you say into 4 categories...
- core, everything we need to be fine and healthy
- descretionary, things we beliebve we will want to continue doing and/or try
- shared, money we woudl like to spend on vacations with family or just give away to them
- heirs , funds we would leave to family
These segments are more equal then they are different in our plans.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by jehovasfitness » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:44 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am
jehovasfitness wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:44 am
3wood wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm
After reading through this interesting thread it occurred to me that a better question would have been what are your expected retirement expenses and what sources of income will you use to cover them. There are so many different ways to get there.
I replied on the 2nd page of this thread that I needed 4 million to cover an anticipated $150k/yr spending. That is still true but not complete. I will need to be debt free and half my current property tax expense by downsizing. I am envious of those receiving pensions that are equal to a couple of million in portfolio $. The closest I’ll get is social security which I plan to delay and use it like longevity insurance.
Real estate is another interesting way but not in the cards for me.
Maybe a combo of different sources of retirement income is best as another way of diversifying.
Can you elaborate what you will be spending the 150k/yr on if debt free?
I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.
Thanks. This is what I struggle to estimate now at 37 compared to when I will be retired.

Our monthly expenses are about $6k/mo which includes our mortgage and a hefty car payment that will be gone soon. That will drop to $5k/mo after that.

Assuming our house is paid off in retirement, that would cut another $2,000 from our budget.

smitcat
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:26 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:44 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am
jehovasfitness wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:44 am
3wood wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm
After reading through this interesting thread it occurred to me that a better question would have been what are your expected retirement expenses and what sources of income will you use to cover them. There are so many different ways to get there.
I replied on the 2nd page of this thread that I needed 4 million to cover an anticipated $150k/yr spending. That is still true but not complete. I will need to be debt free and half my current property tax expense by downsizing. I am envious of those receiving pensions that are equal to a couple of million in portfolio $. The closest I’ll get is social security which I plan to delay and use it like longevity insurance.
Real estate is another interesting way but not in the cards for me.
Maybe a combo of different sources of retirement income is best as another way of diversifying.
Can you elaborate what you will be spending the 150k/yr on if debt free?
I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.
Thanks. This is what I struggle to estimate now at 37 compared to when I will be retired.

Our monthly expenses are about $6k/mo which includes our mortgage and a hefty car payment that will be gone soon. That will drop to $5k/mo after that.

Assuming our house is paid off in retirement, that would cut another $2,000 from our budget.
Just for thought as one category example only … what do these proposed insurance numbers look like in a future plan?
- home/rental insurance
- medical insurance and copayments for 1 or 2
- car or transportation insurance
- LTC insurance or plans

GeoffD
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by GeoffD » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:27 am

The Wizard wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:34 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am
...I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.
Similar for me, the proportions anyway. Good if you can keep core/basic expenses to less than half of total income, thus allowing much freer expression of optional activities.
I'm scoping out a European river cruise for a year from now and that's going to cost a few bucks...
I don't quite get the numbers. I run a small house 1/4 mile from salt water (992 sf on 9,400 sf lot), a sailboat where the boat yard does hauling, storage, and all the work, the private beach membership, and a 1050 sf townhouse ski condo plus all the skiing expenses for $30K. Ignoring health care, I can sustain my lifestyle for $60K and that includes several international trips per year. We were just in Lisbon for 10 days staying in an AirBnB studio apartment in Alfama for sub-$100/night. I've done tons of business travel my whole adult life. I view cruise ships as something for people too unengaged in life to Priceline or AirBnB lodging, find discounted airline tickets, and figure out the train schedule. Almost as bad as a bus tour. My girlfriend hasn't been to Italy so we're doing the usual Rome/Florence/Venice thing next. With gaming credit card bonus for frequent flyer points, AirBnB, and trains, it's not an expensive trip. We might do one or two Michelin star restaurants on the trip and do normal inexpensive dining or eat in the apartment the rest of the time.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:36 am

GeoffD wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:27 am
The Wizard wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:34 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am
...I Cannot speak for Jwood but our core costs for retirement are near $60K a year. Another $60K a year will cover all kinds of 'elective' activities including travel , boating, winter home rental, etc . The balance we would like to gift to family each year.
Similar for me, the proportions anyway. Good if you can keep core/basic expenses to less than half of total income, thus allowing much freer expression of optional activities.
I'm scoping out a European river cruise for a year from now and that's going to cost a few bucks...
I don't quite get the numbers. I run a small house 1/4 mile from salt water (992 sf on 9,400 sf lot), a sailboat where the boat yard does hauling, storage, and all the work, the private beach membership, and a 1050 sf townhouse ski condo plus all the skiing expenses for $30K. Ignoring health care, I can sustain my lifestyle for $60K and that includes several international trips per year. We were just in Lisbon for 10 days staying in an AirBnB studio apartment in Alfama for sub-$100/night. I've done tons of business travel my whole adult life. I view cruise ships as something for people too unengaged in life to Priceline or AirBnB lodging, find discounted airline tickets, and figure out the train schedule. Almost as bad as a bus tour. My girlfriend hasn't been to Italy so we're doing the usual Rome/Florence/Venice thing next. With gaming credit card bonus for frequent flyer points, AirBnB, and trains, it's not an expensive trip. We might do one or two Michelin star restaurants on the trip and do normal inexpensive dining or eat in the apartment the rest of the time.
" I can sustain my lifestyle for $60K and that includes several international trips per year."
What are some of your numbers under these categories:
- Taxes ... home, condo, car, income, etc
- Insurances/copayments ... home condo, car, medical , LTC ,liabilty etc
-Utilities ... home ,condo
- Maintennance and improvements ... hoime and condo
- Transporattion .... car maintanance , fuel, depreciation
,etc
- groceries and entertainment

smitcat
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by smitcat » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:52 am

"I view cruise ships as something for people too unengaged in life to Priceline or AirBnB lodging, find discounted airline tickets, and figure out the train schedule. Almost as bad as a bus tour."
For clarification only while we do enjoy a cruise on occasion my budgeted item of 'boating' is not cruising on a large ship.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by FoolMeOnce » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:56 am

Starfish wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:49 pm
I find it fascinating how many people are willing to give up healthy good quality healthy years to gain better quality long term care, like it matters when you are a vegetable.
The major problem seems to be "But what if I live a long and miserable life, paralyzed in a bed! I have to give quality life now to make more money for that probability so I can get better expensive care so I can spend more in time in that bed!".
It's completely irrational.
Great point. The only counter I can think of is not wanting to be a burden on one's kids and not wanting to exhaust what would otherwise be a legacy for those kids. And elder care can be expensive even for those not confined to bed, though I assume you were exaggerating for effect.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by longleaf » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:07 pm

2.6 million dollars in liquid assets will mark the moment of retirement. Expect to retire at 38, thats where 7% annually on my stock allocation leads. This does not include non-liquid assets. I expect I am being a bit ambitious using 7%, but we’ll see.

I doubt I will stop working at 38, but I will never again worry about having enough money.
Frugality, indexing, time.

FoolMeOnce
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by FoolMeOnce » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:22 pm

I don't have a target yet, but if I got serious about calculating it, I might already be there. But it would be a difficult and imprecise calculation for various reasons: kids currently in costly daycare, but headed to public schools; future college costs; need to partially support MIL starting in near future, extent of need unknown; possibility of needing to help SIL in distant future; younger than 40 with, I think, a pre-existing condition (some insurers might classify it as such). Maybe after getting through the next bear market I'll take a serious look.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by The Wizard » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:54 pm

GeoffD wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:27 am
...I view cruise ships as something for people too unengaged in life to Priceline or AirBnB lodging, find discounted airline tickets, and figure out the train schedule. Almost as bad as a bus tour. My girlfriend hasn't been to Italy so we're doing the usual Rome/Florence/Venice thing next...
My last trip was an AMC Adventure Travel to the South Tyrol part of Italy last month, with independent travel to Milan, Venice, and Florence before/after. Quite warm early August in those three cities; much nicer up around Oberbolzano.

I don't particularly care for ocean cruise ships; I've done two ocean cruises in the past, so I have actual experience for my assessment.
I've not yet done a river cruise, so I'm hoping this will be more better, so to speak. We'll see.

I've done Airbnb lodgings in Ireland and New Orleans in the past few years and have found those interesting. I will do more.

I have an AMC Adventure Travel trip to the Cotswold part of England next July/August as well, hiking inn to inn for a week, and then independent travel to see London and maybe Wales or Cornwall before/after the group trip.

And then there's my road trip to Arizona next March, four weeks or so, getting back before opening day at Fenway April 9th.

Almost forgot my upcoming dive trip to Bonaire the first part of November, nine days at Buddy Dive resort where we've stayed four times previously. Shore diving each day, don't know if we'll do boat diving at all this time.

I'm a diversified traveler, you see...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by shell921 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:08 pm

Starfish wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:49 pm
I find it fascinating how many people are willing to give up healthy good quality healthy years to gain better quality long term care, like it matters when you are a vegetable.
The major problem seems to be "But what if I live a long and miserable life, paralyzed in a bed! I have to give quality life now to make more money for that probability so I can get better expensive care so I can spend more in time in that bed!".
It's completely irrational.
And why is suicide not an option? it seem to be the rational thing to do at least in extreme cases. It's not even brought up. Of course, one might not remember :D

The other thing is "I live bad now because I have grandiose plans for my life in retirement, when I will old, sick, and fragile". It sounds like the opposite of a good plan.
The entire retirement thing has the issue with deferred happiness. You try to do as little as possible now, move your plans to retirement when you could be dead, sick, physically or psychologically unable to follow them.

ON: For me the plan was 2.5 million, retiring before 50, moving to a cheaper country where I could live at 2-3%. But I am not so sure anymore. I have a kid and we have to make sure we judge very well the impact on his life.
Agree with starfish 100%. Being paralyzed in bed is not LIVING - it is existing. No thanks. I say why not have suicide as an option?
Enjoy your health and mobility while you can - it WILL go away. The world death rate holds steady at 100% !
:confused

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by 3wood » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:38 pm

jehovasfitness wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:44 am
3wood wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm
After reading through this interesting thread it occurred to me that a better question would have been what are your expected retirement expenses and what sources of income will you use to cover them. There are so many different ways to get there.
I replied on the 2nd page of this thread that I needed 4 million to cover an anticipated $150k/yr spending. That is still true but not complete. I will need to be debt free and half my current property tax expense by downsizing. I am envious of those receiving pensions that are equal to a couple of million in portfolio $. The closest I’ll get is social security which I plan to delay and use it like longevity insurance.
Real estate is another interesting way but not in the cards for me.
Maybe a combo of different sources of retirement income is best as another way of diversifying.
Can you elaborate what you will be spending the 150k/yr on if debt free?
I spend about $100k/yr on country club membership, travel and eating out/entertainment. Another $50k for property taxes, helping kids and general expenses. Of course I can cut back on these wants but I’d rather save enough and decide I don’t want to do it vs not be able to afford it.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:46 pm

I'd hope for about $3M, but it depends on if you are talking just investable assets or real estate. Plan is to have main house paid off by 50, already have vacation house paid off (but in trust in my name), which together are about 1.1M in value. Then hopefully will have another $2M in 401K/investments, to give us a 4% rule of 80K, plus SS each should be another $30-$40K per year, (I hope)

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by JimmyJammy » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:46 pm

rantk81 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:41 pm


If I had a crystal ball to tell me what the future holds for health care and health insurance costs in this country, I could potentially retire now. In the meantime, I continue to work.
America is warming up to Medicare for All.

Health Care needs and costs are definitely the biggest question mark in my financial planning crystal ball and will inevitably be the greatest source of stress the older I get.

Other rich countries reduce this uncertainty by providing a basic level of care to all citizens.

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by BoglePablo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:18 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:01 am
A typical suburban house with 2500 sqft and 4 bedrooms will have taxes around $12K in Bostom Metrowest area *WITH* good school system. I live about 40 miles from Boston and my taxes for that house are over $13K. The assessed price is around $700K. My RE portion had been always higher than PI since the day we purchased the house 20 years ago!
NW Chicago suburb, 25 mi from city, great school district, 3000 sq ft 4 bedroom house, $12k annual property tax. Pretty typical in this area

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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:59 pm

Let us run some numbers for $100k+$100k professional couple. If they have been able to fully contribute to 401K, IRA, HSA etc then they have never even seen (approx) 24+24+11+7 = 66K of that paycheck. Add Medicare (7+7) and SS taxes (3K) to the money never saw column. That makes it $83K vanished from the yearly paycheck. That leaves the couple with $117K to pay all other taxes and household expenses and mortgage and tuition and after tax savings etc.

If this couple has been used to keep their heads above water; then they should in theory have no trouble being able to live very comfortably, might even lavishly, at $117K *if* they are done with mortgage and kids colleges. Actually that sounds like insane amount of money to me with no mortgage and no tuition bills to pay it from!

Being professional couple working for many years, we will estimate they will be able to get around $30K each at FRA. Now they need to be able to support (117-30-30) = $67K from their invest-able assets. With assumed 4%, the couple needs to have $1.67M of assets. Now that sounds like a big number but if they were fully funding their retirement account for many years in the past as I assumed before, this number should be reachable.

Here is my answer; We want $1.67M to retire :-)

Anybody wants to poke holes in the calculations?

michaeljc70
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Re: How much money do you want to retire?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:34 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:59 pm
Let us run some numbers for $100k+$100k professional couple. If they have been able to fully contribute to 401K, IRA, HSA etc then they have never even seen (approx) 24+24+11+7 = 66K of that paycheck. Add Medicare (7+7) and SS taxes (3K) to the money never saw column. That makes it $83K vanished from the yearly paycheck. That leaves the couple with $117K to pay all other taxes and household expenses and mortgage and tuition and after tax savings etc.

If this couple has been used to keep their heads above water; then they should in theory have no trouble being able to live very comfortably, might even lavishly, at $117K *if* they are done with mortgage and kids colleges. Actually that sounds like insane amount of money to me with no mortgage and no tuition bills to pay it from!

Being professional couple working for many years, we will estimate they will be able to get around $30K each at FRA. Now they need to be able to support (117-30-30) = $67K from their invest-able assets. With assumed 4%, the couple needs to have $1.67M of assets. Now that sounds like a big number but if they were fully funding their retirement account for many years in the past as I assumed before, this number should be reachable.

Here is my answer; We want $1.67M to retire :-)

Anybody wants to poke holes in the calculations?
I'd back out the income taxes. On 200k of income, they would probably be paying 10k-25k in federal and state income taxes (even after the breaks from the 401k and HSA contributions) depending on their deductions, state, number of kids, etc. They will be lower in retirement which will help lower the number. Also, in some states (like mine), there is a state income tax on earned (work) income but not on RMDs (or any retirement withdrawal for that matter). So that would be an extra 5% off the bat for me.

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