Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

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notmyhand
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Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

With consultation fees running 250-1000, I figured I should ask whether this was feasible first, before hiring an attorney to draft this. My spouse and I work in the same industry and it is impeding my job prospects as we cannot work in competing positions/companies. I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner. I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future. I am thinking a post nuptial agreement guaranteeing me a portion of his future income would be wise on my part. There is no trouble in paradise or anything of that nature but I am afraid that in the future if something were to happen, a judge would see my satisfactory income and say I have no need for additional income, not factoring in the promotions and salaries I am turning down. Is such an agreement possible or would it never be upheld? Anyone else do anything similar? Wise financial move or waste of time/money?

Edited to add-> It sounds like a postnup giving me more of the assets at the time of the divorce might be better. Is there a certain percentage that would be acceptable or how would one go about figuring out future possible assets?
Last edited by notmyhand on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ResearchMed
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:15 pm

notmyhand wrote:With consultation fees running 250-1000, I figured I should ask whether this was feasible first, before hiring an attorney to draft this. My spouse and I work in the same industry and it is impeding my job prospects as we cannot work in competing positions/companies. I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner. I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future. I am thinking a post nuptial agreement guaranteeing me a portion of his future income would be wise on my part. There is no trouble in paradise or anything of that nature but I am afraid that in the future if something were to happen, a judge would see my satisfactory income and say I have no need for additional income, not factoring in the promotions and salaries I am turning down. Is such an agreement possible or would it never be upheld? Anyone else do anything similar? Wise financial move or waste of time/money?
First question: Do you have any idea if your spouse is already thinking about/in agreement with something like this?
If so, then you could work on something together, and then get some professional assistance formulating it on paper.
If it's adversarial, that's when it could get pricey, plus perhaps do something to that "paradise"...

Also, be careful in terms of what an attorney might recommend.
They can be coming at it with some pre-conceived notions, based upon unfriendly situations.
So don't get upset if there are some suggestions (or stronger statements) that don't work for the two of *you*.

The problem with having something "upheld" is that by definition, if you "need it upheld", the cooperative nature has vanished.
That might (but might not) include someone claiming there had been duress/threats, or they didn't understand, or a variety of other "issues" that suddenly arise.
Hence something written up with legal assistance, preferably with the consultation of separate attorneys (at least briefly), and each paid by "yourself".

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Goal33
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Goal33 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:17 pm

He could also die after your divorce and then you'll get nothing from his enhanced earnings.

IMO your best bet is to have a post-nuptial agreement that entitles you to more of the marital assets to compensate for your reduced earnings throughout the marriage and after.

I am not a lawyer though and I'm just mentioning what seems easier to me.
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:26 pm

Goal33 wrote:He could also die after your divorce and then you'll get nothing from his enhanced earnings.

IMO your best bet is to have a post-nuptial agreement that entitles you to more of the marital assets to compensate for your reduced earnings throughout the marriage and after.

I am not a lawyer though and I'm just mentioning what seems easier to me.
Very good point.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:43 pm

How does your husband feel about this? I say this as someone who liquidated most of their life savings to pay off their (ex) wife's undergrad loans and put them through dental school debt-free. She was not happy (to say the least) that I even brought it up...then 5yrs later we divorced a few weeks before she graduated from dental school.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:14 pm

notmyhand wrote:With consultation fees running 250-1000, I figured I should ask whether this was feasible first, before hiring an attorney to draft this. My spouse and I work in the same industry and it is impeding my job prospects as we cannot work in competing positions/companies. I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner. I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future. I am thinking a post nuptial agreement guaranteeing me a portion of his future income would be wise on my part. There is no trouble in paradise or anything of that nature but I am afraid that in the future if something were to happen, a judge would see my satisfactory income and say I have no need for additional income, not factoring in the promotions and salaries I am turning down. Is such an agreement possible or would it never be upheld? Anyone else do anything similar? Wise financial move or waste of time/money?

I think the problem is your backing down. Don't put your career on back burner unless you would have done that as a singleton.

P.S. i would not sogn a post nuptial agreement. If I were him I would be angry.

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HueyLD
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by HueyLD » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:19 pm

The OP said:
I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner.
So, what is the problem? You agreed to sacrifice your own career for his advancement. Did you do that under duress? Was that involuntary (for fear of losing him?)

If you are serious about the "what ifs" in the future, you should seek paid professional advice to protect yourself.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by aristotelian » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:21 pm

Could you work for the same company?

Alternatively, could you agree that after focusing on his career for a while he will step back and let you focus on your career? You might make less money but money isn't everything.

Also is there any chance of kids entering the picture? In that case, you would get a slice of his income no matter what.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by neveragain » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:28 pm

I think it all depends on whether he would agree to sign such an agreement.

notmyhand
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:30 pm

Assuming he would, would such an agreement be upheld in divorce proceedings in the future or would a judge likely toss it?

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by aristotelian » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:36 pm

notmyhand wrote:Assuming he would, would such an agreement be upheld in divorce proceedings in the future or would a judge likely toss it?
No idea but even if it holds up it would be much more difficult to enforce than a postnup or divorce agreement with a lump sum.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:03 pm

So let's say we sign a postnup giving me 75% of the assets at the time of the divorce. Would that hold up? Any ideas on best way to determine a percentage?

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:14 pm

notmyhand wrote:So let's say we sign a postnup giving me 75% of the assets at the time of the divorce. Would that hold up? Any ideas on best way to determine a percentage?
You really shouldn't rely upon anonymous members of an internet forum for something that *might* (hopefully not!) have a very significant effect on your future.

This is what attorneys are for, either in an adversarial situation (hopefully NOT!), or after coming to some basic ideas together, and then getting it all formulated properly, so that the words mean what you want them to mean, in a legal context.

Good luck.

(And think carefully of the 75%... and how you calculated that in terms of "fairness" over time spent together. You want much more than half of higher earning spouse's assets? That's who would have earned the most over time, given the scenario. And VERY importantly, which you haven't yet mentioned, is this going to be a one-sided demand by you, rather than the two of you together at this point? That can start things off quite differently...)

Note: MANY arrangements could be "upheld" absent disagreement. But it's seeming that you are anticipating a dispute in the future, and then non-binding and/or poorly worded agreements are likely to fail, at least in the eyes of one "side".
And IF there is "agreement", then "upholding" isn't too relevant, unless there are minor children. Then the court is likely to be involved at least initially.

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notmyhand
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:56 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
notmyhand wrote:So let's say we sign a postnup giving me 75% of the assets at the time of the divorce. Would that hold up? Any ideas on best way to determine a percentage?
You really shouldn't rely upon anonymous members of an internet forum for something that *might* (hopefully not!) have a very significant effect on your future.

This is what attorneys are for, either in an adversarial situation (hopefully NOT!), or after coming to some basic ideas together, and then getting it all formulated properly, so that the words mean what you want them to mean, in a legal context.

Good luck.

(And think carefully of the 75%... and how you calculated that in terms of "fairness" over time spent together. You want much more than half of higher earning spouse's assets? That's who would have earned the most over time, given the scenario. And VERY importantly, which you haven't yet mentioned, is this going to be a one-sided demand by you, rather than the two of you together at this point? That can start things off quite differently...)

Note: MANY arrangements could be "upheld" absent disagreement. But it's seeming that you are anticipating a dispute in the future, and then non-binding and/or poorly worded agreements are likely to fail, at least in the eyes of one "side".
And IF there is "agreement", then "upholding" isn't too relevant, unless there are minor children. Then the court is likely to be involved at least initially.

RM
I plan on hiring an attorney, well an attorney for each of us, but wanted to see if it was even feasible before I shelled out hundreds on an initial consultation and then more for drafting it. And yes, it may be an agreement now but if divorce comes up for any reason, I expect that there is then a possibility that my spouse would attempt to do away with it out of negative emotion.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by bsteiner » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:53 pm

I've done a couple of postnuptial agreements. Both were in states where the elective share was 1/3 outright. In each case, the poorer spouse agreed to accept a trust that was greater than 1/3 instead of 1/3 outright.

Note that the test for enforceability of a postnuptial agreement may be more than that for a prenuptial agreement. See, for example, Pacelli v. Pacelli in New Jersey: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... s_sdt=4,31.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by mckaydw » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:33 pm

Maybe you and your SO have a much different relationship than I'm used to being in or seeing in my friends, but I find this idea straight up crazy.

1) If you desire a legal document to protect you from someone who should be the human being you trust most in this world, that really concerns me.

1b) If you want assurances for your "sacrifices", is he not trustworthy enough so that you could make a deal between yourselves without getting lawyers involved?

2) If you are in a place in your marriage where you need legal protection from him, or if he's not someone that can be trusted on his word, why would he sign something like this? It would already be too late.

Perhaps working with a marriage counselor sooner rather than later would be a good idea?

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by AlohaJoe » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:19 am

mckaydw wrote:Perhaps working with a marriage counselor sooner rather than later would be a good idea?
This comes up in every single thread on these topics but it never ceases to be condescending and off-topic, especially when you know virtually nothing about the people involved.

As a rule of thumb in forums it is usually better to just answer the question that was actually asked by the OP, regardless of the subject.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by miamivice » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:30 am

AlohaJoe wrote: As a rule of thumb in forums it is usually better to just answer the question that was actually asked by the OP, regardless of the subject.
Which has never happened in the history of online forums, ever.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Jags4186 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:42 am

Can’t speak with regards to an agreement but I would never sign something like this. Is this something you’ve spoken to your SO about? It seems to me you want best of both worlds—more potential money together if the marriage works and more money separately if the marriage fails. Lots of couples have it where one person sacrifices their career for the other for the good of the marriage. If you choose to do that you must live with the repercussions.

I suspect if you each hired an attorney to draft something your SO’s attorney would advise him not to do something not in his best interests in case of divorce.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by matatupuncher » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:43 am

AlohaJoe wrote:
mckaydw wrote:Perhaps working with a marriage counselor sooner rather than later would be a good idea?
This comes up in every single thread on these topics but it never ceases to be condescending and off-topic, especially when you know virtually nothing about the people involved.

As a rule of thumb in forums it is usually better to just answer the question that was actually asked by the OP, regardless of the subject.
What "mckaydw" wrote is the most useful advice on this thread. The fact that a post nuptial arrangement is being considered is crazy. My only suggestion is to get out now. Or hopefully the husband comes to his good senses and cuts his losses early. I have a very strong marriage and if some nonsense like this was proposed it would be pretty hurtful.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by miamivice » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:37 am

I don't understand why someone would freely sign a postnup if it resulted in an inequitable distribution of assets.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by GoldenFinch » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:11 am

You really need to consult an attorney with your husband so you are both on board with what you are proposing.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by AgentHoopla » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:09 am

notmyhand wrote:With consultation fees running 250-1000, I figured I should ask whether this was feasible first, before hiring an attorney to draft this. My spouse and I work in the same industry and it is impeding my job prospects as we cannot work in competing positions/companies. I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner. I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future. I am thinking a post nuptial agreement guaranteeing me a portion of his future income would be wise on my part. There is no trouble in paradise or anything of that nature but I am afraid that in the future if something were to happen, a judge would see my satisfactory income and say I have no need for additional income, not factoring in the promotions and salaries I am turning down. Is such an agreement possible or would it never be upheld? Anyone else do anything similar? Wise financial move or waste of time/money?

Edited to add-> It sounds like a postnup giving me more of the assets at the time of the divorce might be better. Is there a certain percentage that would be acceptable or how would one go about figuring out future possible assets?
So you make more money now, but you both agree that he will make more money later, so you decide to put the brakes on your career in order to do whats best.

Admirable.

Than within the same breath you state that because you decided essentially to "let your husband's career progress in lieu of yours" that you should be in essence paid in perpetuity and get a agreement that you get more of the assets in a divorce than what you came in with?

Not Admirable; this is leech-like behavior.

If you were my wife I would look directly at you :shock: and not sign a damn thing. I would even consider getting a divorce, therefore creating "trouble in paradise."

NOTE: Just another thing, you state that you "turned down numerous proposals" but shortly before you state that you cannot work in competing positions/companies. If you had numerous proposals, than clearly you can advance elsewhere. Either those proposals are not worth it (time/money/too much work) or your looking to relax and sit back and not climb the corporate ladder and let your husband do it for the rest of his career while you chill where you are at. (Than if he brings up anything you will say "But baby look at the sacrifice I made for you by not advancing in my career!" If I am wrong, than accept one of those proposals or get one which you will accept and move up in your career. Dont let your husbands stop you. But on the same side, Dont sit there and say well because I stopped mine, I get more of what you make.

How would you feel if he stopped where he is currently at, and said "Honey, go ahead and climb the corporate ladder, your making more money now, I want that to continue and by the way, sign this legal binding agreement that I get 75% of everything in the event we divorce, because you know of the career sacrifice I am making for us babe."

I bet you would not sign it. Now if your not going to sign that, for someone whom you married and supposedly "love" than why would you ever in your right mind even propose him to sign it?

IMO: It seems like to me that you are looking for a safety net and want to have golden handcuffs on your husband. If I were him, I would be skeptical of your intentions financially for the rest of my life. Therefore, I would even consider divorcing you on this basis of poor judgement alone.

Perhaps you should show him this thread in an effort of fairness, since your getting opinions that he isn't privy too. Including your and the forums responses. I would like to hear his response.
Last edited by AgentHoopla on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:26 am, edited 5 times in total.

tim1999
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by tim1999 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:15 am

Sounds like this is less about the OP legitimately needing the money in the future, and more about spite or revenge. That is sad.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:17 am

Tread carefully, you are about to walk through a minefield - especially if husband is blindsided with this. Good Luck. If i were you, i would go for the jobs you think you would be qualified for and earn more money.
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Spewin » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:23 am

notmyhand wrote:my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him

I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future.

These two statements are inconsistent. If you can't foresee a time when he makes more money, then he does not have higher earning potential.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by junior » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:32 am

Spewin wrote:
notmyhand wrote:my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him

I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future.

These two statements are inconsistent. If you can't foresee a time when he makes more money, then he does not have higher earning potential.
Without knowing the career paths it's hard to know, but yeah I wonder if there's some relationship problem behind this assumption rather than a legit reason.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:30 am

To calm everyone's worries - declining another job brought this thought up. The offer was at a competing company for a competing position and we felt it was in our best interest for me to decline after my husband's company made it clear that they disapproved of the conflict. His next promotion could possibly put him above in pay above what any of the positions I have been offered however we have no idea when it could be coming or how the company will be doing it at the time (it is a profit sharing position at that point). I would feel the same way if we decided to have children and I had to step away to be a housewife for example. Everything could be great now but that does not stop what could happen twenty years down the road no matter how much I would love to have a rosy outlook. We buy disability insurance to protect our earning potential, why is this any different?

Anyways, I did not ask about people's views on postnups. I asked whether it was a realistic solution to a problem and if anyone had any experience/insight into them.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Jags4186 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:34 am

notmyhand wrote:To calm everyone's worries - declining another job brought this thought up. The offer was at a competing company for a competing position and we felt it was in our best interest for me to decline after my husband's company made it clear that they disapproved of the conflict. His next promotion could possibly put him above in pay above what any of the positions I have been offered however we have no idea when it could be coming or how the company will be doing it at the time (it is a profit sharing position at that point). I would feel the same way if we decided to have children and I had to step away to be a housewife for example. Everything could be great now but that does not stop what could happen twenty years down the road no matter how much I would love to have a rosy outlook. We buy disability insurance to protect our earning potential, why is this any different?

Anyways, I did not ask about people's views on postnups. I asked whether it was a realistic solution to a problem and if anyone had any experience/insight into them.
I don't believe it is realistic for your husband to sign anything of this nature.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by notmyhand » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:46 am

Jags4186 wrote:
notmyhand wrote:To calm everyone's worries - declining another job brought this thought up. The offer was at a competing company for a competing position and we felt it was in our best interest for me to decline after my husband's company made it clear that they disapproved of the conflict. His next promotion could possibly put him above in pay above what any of the positions I have been offered however we have no idea when it could be coming or how the company will be doing it at the time (it is a profit sharing position at that point). I would feel the same way if we decided to have children and I had to step away to be a housewife for example. Everything could be great now but that does not stop what could happen twenty years down the road no matter how much I would love to have a rosy outlook. We buy disability insurance to protect our earning potential, why is this any different?

Anyways, I did not ask about people's views on postnups. I asked whether it was a realistic solution to a problem and if anyone had any experience/insight into them.
I don't believe it is realistic for your husband to sign anything of this nature.
Thank you, it is the consensus I am getting so need to think about how to proceed going forth. I appreciate it.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by JDCarpenter » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:55 am

notmyhand,

It is nigh-impossible to construct a legal agreement that covers all possibilities in an unambiguous manner. (I know--I made my living in disputes over the meaning of what teams of negotiators thought were solid agreements....)

At a certain point, it comes down to trust and a reasonable determination of what is best for your joint economic union. Despite the diligent efforts of its practitioners, the law tends to end up as a blunt instrument....

We faced a close variant of this issue, although we were not in the same field. About 25 years ago, DW made more than double my income in a very predictable, "no real risk" field (OBG). I had a much higher ceiling, but with some uncertainty (BigLaw). My trajectory required a good deal of travel and an all encompassing job. Hers was all encompassing, but required her to be settled in one place. The kicker was our desire for kids. We decided on the sure thing and I quit to raise the kids and teach at a law school (later came back to practicing in a small firm--after DW, despite all expectations at the outset, changed jobs mid-career and moved states due to general practice environment in old state).

Looking back at it, if we had wanted to craft an agreement to protect me, there is no way on earth that we could have covered what eventually happened to us economically--and if we had developed issues at our economic trough, it would have been completely different than the success we achieved some 10 years later.
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fizxman
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by fizxman » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:04 am

I do see where you coming from in all this and I can't answer whether this something that's feasible or not. But it seems the reason this has come up is that you and your husband work in the same field and for some reason cannot work at competing companies. I understand where the companies are coming from but I don't see how it's any of their business, but what do I know. Never have I been asked what my wife does for a living in order to see if she works at a competing company. It might be worth the time and money to talk to an employment attorney to see if a company can fire your husband because you work at a competing company. The answer is probably yes but it seems better than a post-nuptial. Maybe the two of you sign non-disclosure agreements at your respective companies if you haven't already.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by bsteiner » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:09 am

JDCarpenter wrote:... It is nigh-impossible to construct a legal agreement that covers all possibilities in an unambiguous manner. ...

if we had wanted to craft an agreement to protect me, there is no way on earth that we could have covered what eventually happened to us ....
Agreed. As Niels Bohr and Yogi Berra said, it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. But an agreement can provide some protection against reasonably foreseeable events.

To expand on my previous post, in New York, the elective share is 1/3. In other words, if S1 dies with $3x, S2 can take $x in lieu of the provision (if any) that S1 made for S2.

In each of my cases involving postnuptial agreements, each spouse had been married before and had children from a previous marriage. For whatever reason, they did not have prenuptial agreements. S1 had substantial assets, and S2 did not. Absent an agreement, if S1 died first, S2 would receive 1/3 of S1's assets, which S2 could then leave to his/her children. But if S2 died first, S2's children wouldn't get anything. S2 was willing to agree to accept more than 1/3 in trust (and give up his/her right to claim 1/3 outright). S1 was willing to provide more than 1/3 in trust. S1 was also willing to agree to make some provisions for S2's children if S2 died first. So each side got some protection that he/she wouldn't have otherwise had. In one case, S2 had competent counsel; and in the other case, S2 was a lawyer and was capable of understanding the agreement and negotiating it.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by JDCarpenter » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:17 am

bsteiner wrote:... As Niels Bohr and Yogi Berra said, it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. But an agreement can provide some protection against reasonably foreseeable events.

...
+1. My perspective is/was perhaps an example of allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good. (And, of course, is both anecdotal and an example of hindsight.)

OP--if you aren't familiar with Bsteiner, he is worth paying particular attention to in this area of personal legal/financial planning.
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by junior » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:49 pm

fizxman wrote:. Never have I been asked what my wife does for a living in order to see if she works at a competing company.
This is worth exploring. Is your husband going around telling his employer things he should have kept private? Is the problem really not your career choices, but your husband's big mouth?

Is there a independent source of career advice you can turn about whether your husband's concerns are real?

alex_686
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by alex_686 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:08 pm

fizxman wrote:I understand where the companies are coming from but I don't see how it's any of their business, but what do I know. Never have I been asked what my wife does for a living in order to see if she works at a competing company.
First, I used to work with a portfolio manager whose husband worked as a investment banker. Different companies, same investment field. So they had lots of insider information from different companies. I would be hard pressed to think of a situation that had more conflicts of interest. Getting pre-clearance for trades was a nightmare. Yet it worked. I can't think of a situation which would bar employment of a spouse in a similar field.

Second, I remember reading a news article about 10 years ago on post nuptials. Basically the court struck down the post nuptial because you can't modify the "marriage contract" after the fact. The situation was a high earning husband and a stay at-home wife. Husband was fooling around and the wife was unhappy. The husband agreed to give the marriage another go if she signed a post nuptial. She did, he kept fooling around, and she filed for divorce.

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FelixTheCat
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by FelixTheCat » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:11 pm

notmyhand wrote:and thus have put my career on the back burner.
Do you really want to settle for a lesser career? I suggest don't put your career on the back burner.

Work together as a team that benefits both of you.
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.

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8foot7
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:16 pm

OP, I find it useful when thinking about trying to get people to make a deal to put myself in the other party's shoes. If I were your husband, here is what I would be thinking:

Why would I agree to sign this? What's in it for me? I'm already married to you. You already make more. Why would I voluntarily agree now to give up money I haven't gotten yet and may never get? Why would you bring this to me now? What are you thinking? Do you want a divorce? Are you a golddigger? You don't appear to me to have "given up" or "sacrificed" much if you already outearn me, so why do you want even more from me that I don't even have yet and have no guarantee of getting? Why do you want 3/4 of our stuff in advance? Do you not see me as an equal partner?

With a prenup at least you have some "leverage" in that presumably your spouse wants to marry you and you could theoretically walk away if that agreement isn't reached and signed. I also understand in some situations a post-nup is useful when there are two second marriages with children involved and estate planning properly requires something be spelled out in advance. I get that. But this is just a blanket sort of "I want a piece of you later" via either his paycheck or 75% (!) of marital assets. If I'm being totally honest putting myself in your husband's shoes, I'd have serious qualms about continuing a relationship with you on this basis.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by SquawkIdent » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:23 pm

I would really recommend that you seek legal counsel about this. That said...

As a man, I would never sign something like this nor would my legal team allow me to. In your situation we are thinking I'm already married, what's in it for me? Sorry, but it always comes back to watching out for number 1. By you even suggesting this says you are doing that too. :moneybag

Good luck.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by junior » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:29 pm

8foot7 wrote:OP, I find it useful when thinking about trying to get people to make a deal to put myself in the other party's shoes. If I were your husband, here is what I would be thinking:

Why would I agree to sign this? What's in it for me?
I think you might be missing something. (Or maybe I am missing something).

My undertsanding is the husband is asking OP to sacrifice OP's career for him. Doesn't that answer your "what's in it for me?" question. He gets what he wants: namely a spouse who has a worse job.

Maybe he has rational reasons for wanting this, maybe he is just a jerk.
Last edited by junior on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by TheHouse7 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:32 pm

matatupuncher wrote:
AlohaJoe wrote:
mckaydw wrote:Perhaps working with a marriage counselor sooner rather than later would be a good idea?
This comes up in every single thread on these topics but it never ceases to be condescending and off-topic, especially when you know virtually nothing about the people involved.

As a rule of thumb in forums it is usually better to just answer the question that was actually asked by the OP, regardless of the subject.
What "mckaydw" wrote is the most useful advice on this thread. The fact that a post nuptial arrangement is being considered is crazy. My only suggestion is to get out now. Or hopefully the husband comes to his good senses and cuts his losses early. I have a very strong marriage and if some nonsense like this was proposed it would be pretty hurtful.
+1
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:38 pm

junior wrote: My undertsanding is the husband is asking OP to sacrifice OP's career for him. Doesn't that answer your "what's in it for me?" question. He gets what he wants: namely a spouse who has a worse job.
OP seems to think husband is right when he says his career has a higher earning potential. Not sure why you think husband is a jerk if they both agree he is likely to earn more. OP as part of the marriage will get to ride that gravy train as well if that is the case, so not like OP is making a huge sacrifice or has a "worse job" when (a) OP already outearns husband and (b) OP thinks judge may find OP's income at time of separation "satisfactory" and thus not deserving of an alimony award.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by celia » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:39 pm

notmyhand wrote:My spouse and I work in the same industry and it is impeding my job prospects as we cannot work in competing positions/companies.
If it is impeding your job prospects, it seems it would also (eventually?) impede his. Maybe he should therefore ask for concessions from you.

Did you both not know you were in competing positions/companies when you married, but you still agreed to marry?
I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner.
Agreeing to do what is best for the family is usually the best thing to do. Many women (including me) have chosen to do what is in the best family interest overall even when it meant less for themselves personally. You are not the only person who has had to face this. Most of us did not bother with legal maneuvers and it ended up fine. Instead, we continue to build on relationships and trust instead of ourselves.

PS. If you have kids, you will end up giving up more than you are now. You will want what is best for them, too.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by new2bogle » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:41 pm

junior wrote:
fizxman wrote:. Never have I been asked what my wife does for a living in order to see if she works at a competing company.
This is worth exploring. Is your husband going around telling his employer things he should have kept private? Is the problem really not your career choices, but your husband's big mouth?

Is there a independent source of career advice you can turn about whether your husband's concerns are real?
I'm really wondering about this too. Is your industry so small that everyone knows you are married? If not, how does a prospective employer know where your husband works?

Maybe it might be easier to change your last name back to your maiden name.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by junior » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:46 pm

8foot7 wrote:
junior wrote: My undertsanding is the husband is asking OP to sacrifice OP's career for him. Doesn't that answer your "what's in it for me?" question. He gets what he wants: namely a spouse who has a worse job.
OP seems to think husband is right when he says his career has a higher earning potential.
So what? I suspect (again unless I'm missing something) OP isn't happy with the husband's demands, which is why there's this talk of a post nup.

There's nothing reasonable about asking someone to sacrifice their career if they don't want to.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by dm200 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:49 pm

notmyhand wrote:With consultation fees running 250-1000, I figured I should ask whether this was feasible first, before hiring an attorney to draft this. My spouse and I work in the same industry and it is impeding my job prospects as we cannot work in competing positions/companies. I have turned down numerous proposals because my spouse feels his career has higher earning potential and I agree with him and thus have put my career on the back burner. I currently make more money and will for the forseeable future. I am thinking a post nuptial agreement guaranteeing me a portion of his future income would be wise on my part. There is no trouble in paradise or anything of that nature but I am afraid that in the future if something were to happen, a judge would see my satisfactory income and say I have no need for additional income, not factoring in the promotions and salaries I am turning down. Is such an agreement possible or would it never be upheld? Anyone else do anything similar? Wise financial move or waste of time/money?

Edited to add-> It sounds like a postnup giving me more of the assets at the time of the divorce might be better. Is there a certain percentage that would be acceptable or how would one go about figuring out future possible assets?
1. Are you 100% sure that you are actually prevented from taking on these "proposals"?

2. What if you took on one of these "proposals"? Would he lose his job?

3. I have no actual experience or credentials, but over the years (in similar types of contracts/proposals) I have been surprised that spouses often work for competing employers. If you have not already done so, I would independently verify that his (and your) actions and concerns are valid.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:49 pm

junior wrote:So what? I suspect (again unless I'm missing something) OP isn't happy with the husband's demands, which is why there's this talk of a post nup.

There's nothing reasonable about asking someone to sacrifice their career if they don't want to.
The only demands, to use your word, I see are those the OP wants to make via a post-nup. I see no evidence that the other decisions have not been arrived at via consensus.

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dm200
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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by dm200 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:01 pm

OPINION: I believe it is a positive sign of "progress" that the female spouse earns more than the male.

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by Mlm » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:02 pm

Do working spouses receive alimony in addition to an equitable asset distribution?
Reality has a way of catching up with you

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Re: Post Nuptial agreement guaranteeing alimony?

Post by N1CKV » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:03 pm

notmyhand wrote:To calm everyone's worries - declining another job brought this thought up. The offer was at a competing company for a competing position and we felt it was in our best interest for me to decline after my husband's company made it clear that they disapproved of the conflict. His next promotion could possibly put him above in pay above what any of the positions I have been offered however we have no idea when it could be coming or how the company will be doing it at the time (it is a profit sharing position at that point). I would feel the same way if we decided to have children and I had to step away to be a housewife for example. Everything could be great now but that does not stop what could happen twenty years down the road no matter how much I would love to have a rosy outlook. We buy disability insurance to protect our earning potential, why is this any different?

Anyways, I did not ask about people's views on postnups. I asked whether it was a realistic solution to a problem and if anyone had any experience/insight into them.
[OT comment removed by moderator prudent]
My employer has zero say so on my spouse's employment unless they are willing to compensate us for it (which is highly unlikely).
I would not even be discussing this with my employer in the first place.
I have met a lot of people that claim to love money, but they also seem to be the same people that are in the biggest hurry to get rid of it.

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