Investing Education and Mansplaining

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staythecourse
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by staythecourse » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:55 pm

jabberwockOG wrote:
meaghansketch wrote:Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.

What you describe above is not manspaining, that is being a bozo, and bozos of both genders unabashedly spouting foolish ill-informed rubbish are pretty abundant these days.
Agreed. Interesting as I wonder if you would have had the same response if it was a woman giving the advice. Maybe a bit sexism in reverse?

I would have been annoyed, but NOT because it came from a man or woman, but it was unwarranted advice.

Good luck.

p.s. I do believe most if not all of us are conditioned to receive advice different based on our inherent bias, i.e. man/ woman, parent/ friend, old/ young, stranger/ next door neighbor, friend/ foe, etc... Which is really interesting as we all know the reaction to the advice should be based on the quality of advice MORE then who is giving it. Guess the "don't shoot the messenger" has legs to stand.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

Avo
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Avo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:02 pm

Merriman is way too complicated for a beginner, IMO.

I was very fortunate that when my daughter took a required economics class in high school, she had a fantastic teacher (male) who took 3 weeks to give a non-standard curriculum on personal finance that was pure bogleheads. She took it all in. Whew!

I am also male, but I know that mansplaining is a real and pernicious phenomenon. The opposite (a woman insisting on telling a man about something he already knows well) is a much rarer occurrence, in my experience (so rare that I can't think of an example!).

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celia
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by celia » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:04 pm

This thread reminds me of one we had last year: "Women and Investing" class offered by employer

In that thread, many women thought it was condescending to have a class taught by a woman for women.

I think that the DD just isn't ready for any more financial ed at this time but knows to seek it out when she is ready. Don't worry about it, OP.

10YearPlan
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by 10YearPlan » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:18 pm

As a woman and former 22 year old know it all, I feel your pain. Also, though, at 22 I had like $10 to my name, so investing was not yet on my radar screen.

I feel like the term mansplaining needs to die already. However, as with all things, how you approach the topic does matter. If your daughter is accusing you of mansplaining, then she's not quite ready. Either she's not ready to hear it from you because of your unfortunate male-ness or she's not ready for the topic. Maybe both. Has your wife/her mom tried to have a similar conversation?

Also, when I talk about something I know something about or am passionate about, I recognize that I also come across as condescending. I don't mean to, but it happens. I have to check myself at work all the time on this. So, when you do have the conversation, just try not to be the "guy with all the answers" and be open to her ideas too. I am sure by the time she's 30 and real life has smacked her down a few pegs, she will be very open to advice from dear old dad. ;)

deltaneutral83
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by deltaneutral83 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:41 pm

investingdad wrote:My engineering manager is both female and younger than I. No issues for me based on mutual respect.

The OPs daughter will eventually have a rude awakening.
Engineers are a natural fit for DIY investing and Boglehead principles for a host of reasons. If you go to a large boglehead meetup in your area expect a larger % of engineers than anything else.

Thesaints
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Thesaints » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:46 pm

And God knows engineers and women are two almost orthogonal sets...

goingup
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by goingup » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:02 pm

bigred77 wrote:Seeing mansplaining debated on Bogleheads is better than I could have ever hoped for :D
I agree! It's delightful.

To those who are saying the OP's daughter better just buck up and get used to it. Well, there you go again--mansplaining. :wink:

chinto
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by chinto » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:42 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining.

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)
Oh go with Suzy Orman...no need to worry about anything ever involving men there...

indexonlyplease
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by indexonlyplease » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:07 pm

mansplaining, sounds like something I do with a electric trimmer.

meaghansketch
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by meaghansketch » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:26 pm

jabberwockOG wrote:
meaghansketch wrote:Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.

What you describe above is not manspaining, that is being a bozo, and bozos of both genders unabashedly spouting foolish ill-informed rubbish are pretty abundant these days.
"The word “mansplain” can been traced to Rebecca Solnit, a writer whose 2008 essay “Men Explain Things to Me” laid out the mansplaining fundamentals (though the actual term only began croppping up on feminist blogs months later). In its early incarnation, it had a straightforward definition: when a man condescendingly lectures a woman on the basics of a topic about which he knows very little, under the mistaken assumption that she knows even less. In the piece, Solnit describes attending a party at which an oblivious male, “eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority,” patronizingly attempts to tell her all about a new book on the photographer Eadweard Muybridge, which it turns out Solnit actually wrote. This all-too-typical experience of being unthinkingly talked down to, she writes, “trains [women] in self-doubt and self-limitation just as it exercises men’s unsupported overconfidence.” (http://www.salon.com/2014/10/20/rip_man ... ful_words/)

What the OP's daughter is having a problem with doesn't sound like mansplaining to me. Some people just aren't interested in investing. That's OK with me. Some people aren't interested in gardening and some people aren't interested in motorcycles. Everyone needs to live below their means and everyone needs to save, but I know there are a ton of people here who weren't super into investing at 22 and things turned out OK for them in the end. It takes some of us a little time to get things figured out and our young adulthoods are when we're trying to separate from our parents and show them we can figure stuff out for ourselves and we don't need to have them show us every little thing. At some point she'll have a conversation with a friend who used her tax refund to max out her IRA or a conversation with a friend who managed to save up for a downpayment for a house, and she'll ask that person how they did it. Or when she's a little older she'll realize that her parents really are older and wiser and have a few things figured out and she'll be willing to listen. As long as she knows enough not to get into massive debt on cars or stuff, she'll be fine when she's ready to figure stuff out.

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bottlecap
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bottlecap » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:23 am

Have you considered that she is using "mansplaining" as an excuse to not to do something her parents want her to do?

If that's not the case, perhaps try Christine Benz?

I don't really read her because I feel like she's "womansplaining" and therefore her investing advice couldn't possible apply to me, a man.

But I hear she gives good advice from other men, which makes me think that I shouldn't listen to them. These men are womansplaining her ideas to me, which defeats the purpose of me not reading her. :oops:

JT

P?S. I do get the concept, as sexist and stereotypical as the term may be. I have always loved it when people, male or female, mansplain to me. It gives me an opportunity to chuckle inside, play dumb, and try to ask questions they can't answer. If I can't find those questions, then joke's on me, because I thought I was smarter than they.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:05 am

indexonlyplease wrote:mansplaining, sounds like something I do with a electric trimmer.
I believe that's called "manscaping".

And yes, there seems to be a word for everything...or there will be at some time.
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by pennywise » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:09 am

creditdefaultswaps wrote:
I think it'd be healthier as parent to go ahead and let your adult daughter know that, in fact, blowing someone off because of their race or gender is indeed wrong. Try and teach her to think critically and investigate the credentials, background and experience of the person talking before rushing towards an assumption.
Mansplaining a young woman about mansplaining--this is priceless! :D

WoodSpinner
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by WoodSpinner » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:16 am

Thesaints wrote:And God knows engineers and women are two almost orthogonal sets...
Ah...

But when those sets intersect, magic happens.

8-)

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by jabberwockOG » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:23 am

pennywise wrote:
creditdefaultswaps wrote:
I think it'd be healthier as parent to go ahead and let your adult daughter know that, in fact, blowing someone off because of their race or gender is indeed wrong. Try and teach her to think critically and investigate the credentials, background and experience of the person talking before rushing towards an assumption.
Mansplaining a young woman about mansplaining--this is priceless! :D

40 years working in complex hardware and software engineering roles taught me that what is important and valuable in an individual is brains, creativity, experience, and integrity irregardless of gender, color, race, creed, sexuality, etc. We frankly did not give a rat's patoot what gender or race a person was as long as they could help the team. Those who seem quick to see every possible slight, and use negative gender labels like mansplaining, are stereotyping folks behavior based on a person's physical attributes (like being male or female, etc), these folks are relatively blind when it comes to judging the merits of most personal and professional interactions. The PC blade cuts both ways.

Small Law Survivor
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Small Law Survivor » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:33 am

Thank you for all these thoughtful, insightful and - most of all - humbling comments. You've given me a lot to think about, and really changed my perspective on the issue raised in my original post.

Small Law ...
Last edited by Small Law Survivor on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

indexonlyplease
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by indexonlyplease » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:38 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining.

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)
I read this again and see the thinking is disturbing. Is this what 22 yr old college graduates think. Were all her Professors Women. I dout it. But again I beleive the Professors in college either men or women try to push their ideas of life on to young adults. I wish they would just stick to teaching. Like my son in college teacher stated to his class that it will be bad for the conttry if you vote for Trump. What gives her the right to tell young kids how to vote. Also, she was a math teach.

No wonder kids graduate college and are so confused and learned very little except to make sure they pay the $50,000 student loan back. That's what they should teaching more of not going into debt. Who cares if it's a man or women.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by investingdad » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 am

In some ways this reminds of me when I was a kid spending time with my grandparents, aunts and uncles, and older cousin.

He was three years older than me and, for that reason, whenever I didn't know how to do something I was told by my grandparents to ask my cousin Mike and he'd show me how to do whatever it was.

That all came to an amusing (to me) and probably embarrassing (to him) end when investingdad was in 8th grade and big cousin Mike was in 11th grade. We were at my grandparents house and he was complaining to them about how hard his algebra homework was. Neither of them graduated high school so they had no idea how that sort of math worked.

I piped up that I was also taking algebra and didn't think it was that hard. My cousin said it was because I had the easy stuff. So...I looked at what he was working on and explained how to solve it.

...and that's around the time I was labeled as a smart--s by my extended family (not in a good way).

I think only one of us posts on Bogleheads.

WL2034
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by WL2034 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:15 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
meaghansketch wrote:Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.

What you describe above is not manspaining, that is being a bozo, and bozos of both genders unabashedly spouting foolish ill-informed rubbish are pretty abundant these days.

:D There you go -- you've got the technique!

Other examples I have personally witnessed recently--a man who is a "student of history" disagreeing and correcting a young woman with a phd in history with an emphasis on the topic being discussed. A part time EMT cutting off and incorrectly explaining the goals and techniques of CPR to a female Emergency Medicine physician. Also in a group discussion when a woman makes a well-received statement or idea and then a man immediately paraphrases and maybe uses a sports metaphor to "clear up" the idea.

The caveat here, which has been described in a couple posts already, is that the mansplanation is typically directed at someone (a woman) who already knows as much or more than the man doing the explaining. Oftentimes the target of the mansplaining is woman who is an expert in the field being discussed. If you pay attention, you are likely to see this quite frequently.

Women who are tired of mansplaining can still be quite successful in their careers (it is the very successful career women and academics who have probably experienced the most blatant mansplaining).

And learning from a man about a topic that you currently know nothing about wouldn't automatically fit the definition of mansplaining (assuming the delivery isn't patronizing and/or condescending).

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F150HD
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by F150HD » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:00 am

creditdefaultswaps wrote:
We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it.
When is acceptable to make judgements of folks based simply on their race or gender? It's not. I don't agree that you're taking the right approach to just accepting it and not arguing with it.

I think it'd be healthier as parent to go ahead and let your adult daughter know that, in fact, blowing someone off because of their race or gender is indeed wrong. Try and teach her to think critically and investigate the credentials, background and experience of the person talking before rushing towards an assumption.

If she refuses to understand, then you've done your job and you can carry on your life while she ultimately learns the hard way. But by giving in and finding non-white male resources to help her learn, aren't you reinforcing her stereotypes and essentially doing to the white male what the white male has been admonished for in the last century?
+1

This thread has a Facebook flavor. :(

protagonist
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by protagonist » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:17 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.
If what you say is true, then that opinion will be perceived as mansplaining.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)
You think she does not want to hear advice from men but wants to take recommendations as to who to listen to from men?

I think people, men and women, tend to become more interested in finances when they get older, have kids, and retirement seems like a looming reality rather than a distant fantasy , etc. At 20 one tends to be more interested in figuring out what life is about, what they want to do, getting a job and falling in love or some variation of love.

My advice...back off. She will come to you if and when she is ready. Meanwhile she is entitled to make her own mistakes, as hard as that may seem for you to swallow.

kaprecht
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by kaprecht » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:43 am

WL2034 wrote:
jabberwockOG wrote:
meaghansketch wrote:Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.

What you describe above is not manspaining, that is being a bozo, and bozos of both genders unabashedly spouting foolish ill-informed rubbish are pretty abundant these days.

:D There you go -- you've got the technique!
+1

Well said.

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nedsaid
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by nedsaid » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:17 am

I feel a disturbance in the force. A thread lock is on its way. :wink:
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by BHUser27 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:27 am

Small Law Survivor wrote: ...if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
OP - to address your actual question, this (somewhat dated) article has some links and sources you may find useful (or not)...

"Financial Advice By Women, For Women"
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/your- ... money.html

vested1
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by vested1 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:51 am

"As a Member in good standing of the He Man Woman Haters Club, I do solemnly swear to be a he-man and hate women and not play with them or talk to them unless I have to. And especially: never fall in love, and if I do may I die slowly and painfully and suffer for hours - or until I scream bloody murder."

So we see that even as far back as The Little Rascals, the war between men and women existed. Actually, I think it may have started with a club in the far more distant past, but still of the original he-man women haters variety.

Having fought his battle myself over the years, with 3 wives (2 exes), 3 daughters, and 4 granddaughters, I finally capitulated and admitted that they have a point. I therefore refrain from manspaining whenever the urge arises, letting actions speak louder than words. They do come around however, asking the occasional question, or variously keep their distance, taking their own counsel. Whatever works as far as I'm concerned.

My advice is to play the long game, realizing there is no urgency to a financial education that the passage of time won't remedy.

*3!4!/5!
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by *3!4!/5! » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:04 pm

She should listen to the advice of John Bogle. Oh wait, never mind, I forgot. He's disqualified. :oops:

SheReadsHere719
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by SheReadsHere719 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:22 pm

Everyone should closely re-read meaghansketch and WL2034’s posts – they are excellent and make it clear that Mansplaining is not a “war between men and women” or an aversion to Bogle explaining investment principles.

Rather, I’ll illustrate with my own recent example: an older male coworker Mansplaining how credit card points accrue. (I’ve traveled domestically and internationally many times on points and have about 105,000 accrued currently. Not exactly an area that needs explaining to me.)

Small Law Survivor: I agree Mansplaining is not 100% pertinent here. For your daughter, I suspect it’s more about age than gender. I highly recommend I Will Teach You to be Rich by Ramit Sethi for recent grads. It covers everything she’ll need to know without unnecessary detail inundation, has clear actionable steps for actions, and is written in an approachable manner for the 20- and 30-somethings.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by GoldenFinch » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:54 pm

Forgive me if someone else said this already but "Dad-splaining" may be the actual problem. :twisted:

I steered my then 18 year old son (I'm Mom) toward proper money management by giving him an incentive to read The Richest Man in Babylon and the Boglehead Wiki. I showed him the Bankrate Simple Savings Calculator and talked to him about Roth IRAs. He came around from being a spender (of all of his money) to a more balanced saver and spender. I don't think I could get him to watch Paul Merriman though.

Good luck :happy

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:56 pm

I think it'd be healthier as parent to go ahead and let your adult daughter know that, in fact, blowing someone off because of their race or gender is indeed wrong. Try and teach her to think critically and investigate the credentials, background and experience of the person talking before rushing towards an assumption.
Absolutely. If she won't listen with rapt attention while you drone on about investing, and won't watch your curated recommended videos about investing with rapt attention, then the obvious conclusion is that someone (you) raised her without helping her learn not to blow someone off because of race and gender. Sit her down and lecture her about that. And look forward to having a nice Thanksgiving without her. Or take a tip from Elsa and let it go.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by flamesabers » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:44 pm

protagonist wrote:My advice...back off. She will come to you if and when she is ready. Meanwhile she is entitled to make her own mistakes, as hard as that may seem for you to swallow.
OP,

I agree a lot with this statement. If she currently has zero interest with investing, there's nothing you can do about that, especially since she's an adult. Hopefully her remarks about "mansplaining" is just her way of ending a conversation she doesn't want to have. (Were any of her professors white men?) Otherwise I suspect she'll have a very difficult time in life if she doesn't want to listen to people of a certain gender and race.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by shorvath » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:06 pm

Image
Drunken Roboticist

MindBogler
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by MindBogler » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:07 pm

I could explain mansplaining but then you wouldn't understand.

:beer

/sarc

Humor aside (everything is better with humor, of course):

We've arrived at a point in time where it is becoming socially unacceptable to talk about subjects without wearing credentials on one's sleeve. It does not logically follow by virtue of education that one has nothing left to learn or that the uneducated have no place to speak. The hubris is outstanding. There is nothing more dangerous, in my opinion, than a closed mind.

I often question my own assumptions through the use of thought experiments. Testing one's assumptions is a valuable exercise. So, let's do it here. Imagine for a moment a parallel universe, a hypothetical world if you will. It is 1905 and every learned physicist is a woman. Can you imagine how they felt when that lowly patent clerk began mansplaining the theory of relativity?

Think about it.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by lostinjersey » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:08 pm

Don't know about videos, but Beth Kobliner's books are fabulous for that age group.

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nedsaid
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by nedsaid » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:13 pm

This has been a very interesting thread. It has been fun reading the various comments and a few have generated a chuckle. This must be of interest to the moderators, too. I was just certain the thread would be locked, they often take away the punchbowl just as the party gets started. They must like the punch too.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by ny_knicks » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:34 pm

Examples are being thrown around of men "mansplaining" women who have PHDs about their area of expertise. Obviously absurd. OP's 22 year old daughter claiming she is being "mansplained" because a man (her father/those in videos) is trying to help educate her on personal finance which she seems to have limited knowledge of. Not quite the same thing and a pretty slippery slope to go down if that's her attitude in life.

I'm sure this ends up locked w/ the mods "mansplaining" to us the boards policies :sharebeer

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Barefootgirl » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:59 pm

If I had a dollar for every time in my life that a man has talked over me, interrupted me or assumed he knew me more than me, (this also goes for the women in my presence at the time) I'd be retired a long time ago. It's what men (generally speaking) do.

It does get old. The only advice I can offer is to do your own due diligence, sifting through the advice in an author-blind fashion, watch more for quality of content.....much the same way one goes about blind wine tasting, etc.

....and always, always seek multiple sources that confirm each other.
How many retired people does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Only one, but he takes all day.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by KyleAAA » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:16 pm

ny_knicks wrote:Examples are being thrown around of men "mansplaining" women who have PHDs about their area of expertise. Obviously absurd. OP's 22 year old daughter claiming she is being "mansplained" because a man (her father/those in videos) is trying to help educate her on personal finance which she seems to have limited knowledge of. Not quite the same thing and a pretty slippery slope to go down if that's her attitude in life.

I'm sure this ends up locked w/ the mods "mansplaining" to us the boards policies :sharebeer
OPs daughter didn't claim anybody was mansplaining anything to her. OP just used the term "mansplain" incorrectly.

*3!4!/5!
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by *3!4!/5! » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:55 pm

KyleAAA wrote:OPs daughter didn't claim anybody was mansplaining anything to her. OP just used the term "mansplain" incorrectly.
Hmmm, I wonder what kind of "correctness" is being called for here. :wink:

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by stimulacra » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:51 pm

Sounds like a market opportunity IMHO… 

If someone can successfully package Jack Bogle's advice for millennials… (VICE, BuzzFeed) it would be a huge hit.

I feel like Mr. Money Moustache (blog) or Rachel Cruze (Dave Ramsey's daughter) are tackling some of the lifestyle/thrift aspects of it but we haven't quite had a pure investing personality that really captures the spirit of common sense investing the way folks like Buffet, Bogle, or Swensen did for a prior generation.

It's doubtful any of the fundamental content or messages would need to change… just trying to make it relevant to people who've learned to tune it out.

Things that pique my curiosity on this front are some of these newer apps that suggests millennials can save for retirement with spare change. I'm skeptical at the underlying soundness of their “smart portfolios” but am intrigued at how they are marketing to a generation of people who are skeptical of investing and financial markets as a whole but who do want to save for retirement.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by MoonOrb » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:06 am

I'd recommend Rebecca Solnit's excellent book "Men Explain Things to Me" for people whose knee-jerk reaction is to consider that the OP's daughter is somehow out of line here. It might help change how you think about this a bit!

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by flamesabers » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:29 am

ny_knicks wrote:OP's 22 year old daughter claiming she is being "mansplained" because a man (her father/those in videos) is trying to help educate her on personal finance which she seems to have limited knowledge of. Not quite the same thing and a pretty slippery slope to go down if that's her attitude in life.
I agree. Regardless of gender, I think it's fair to say most parents are more knowledgeable about finances/investing then their young adult children. Parents may not have a PhD in finances, but they do have the life experience of managing investments, credit cards, mortgages, loans, etc. as well of the knowledge of learning from financial mistakes they made when they were younger.
stimulacra wrote:Sounds like a market opportunity IMHO… 

If someone can successfully package Jack Bogle's advice for millennials… (VICE, BuzzFeed) it would be a huge hit.
Speaking as a millennial, it wasn't a marketing campaign or even a particular book that convinced me to save money and invest in index funds. Instead, I think my parents leading a frugal lifestyle along with my own desire for financial independence was what later motivated me to invest in index funds. While being educated about Jack Bogle's advice would probably be beneficial for young people, the onus is still on young people to make use of that advice.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by RadAudit » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:45 am

Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this.
I really appreciate all the explanations of what mansplaining is. I commiserate with all the women who had to suffer through these and similar episodes.

But there exists the possibility that the OP is suffering through a 22 year old female's, and recent college graduate, updated version of a teenager's "Oh, DAAAAD!" eye roll. Just wait. When she comes back in 20 years and says she needs money - you can say, if you had listened to me the first time I told you, this wouldn't be happening now. That's why patience is a virtue.
"Everything will be all right in the end. If everything is not all right, then it is not the end." - The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:54 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining.

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)
Some people have the gift of explaining and others don't. Many college professors have honed the art of explaining well. My favorite professors are Daniel Kahneman, Dan Ariely, Dan Gilbert--all men.

Many Bogleheads authors explain finance extremely well. I will choose Bill Bernstein, Nisiprius and Valuethinker (all men) over Suze Orman any moment.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by nedsaid » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:03 am

I don't know, I have been "quantsplained" here many times by people who believe investing is an engineering problem or a math equation. Don't get me wrong, the math is helpful and vital, but it has limitations, mostly due to irrational humans and their behavior in the investment markets. Can't tell you how many times I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by junior » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:48 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)
Did she actually use the term "mainsplain"? If the implied audience for the lecture is not gendered, I'm confused why the term would be applicable.

Are you sure you aren't confused about your daughter's reaction? Was it really about the video? Or is it more about how she's reacting to potentially unsolicited advice from you?

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bigred77 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:19 pm

nedsaid wrote:I don't know, I have been "quantsplained" here many times by people who believe investing is an engineering problem or a math equation. Don't get me wrong, the math is helpful and vital, but it has limitations, mostly due to irrational humans and their behavior in the investment markets. Can't tell you how many times I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.
"quantsplained" really should be an addition to the wiki

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by tesuzuki2002 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:20 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining.

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)

My Plug here is for Shannon McLay!!! I'm a guy but I follow her and she is a big advocate for woman's financial upward mobility.

http://financially-blonde.com/start/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/martinisandyourmoney/

http://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/07/24/fi ... tness.html


Great stuff!! check it out. Introduce Shannon to your daughter.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bigred77 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:27 pm

stimulacra wrote:Sounds like a market opportunity IMHO… 

If someone can successfully package Jack Bogle's advice for millennials… (VICE, BuzzFeed) it would be a huge hit.

I feel like Mr. Money Moustache (blog) or Rachel Cruze (Dave Ramsey's daughter) are tackling some of the lifestyle/thrift aspects of it but we haven't quite had a pure investing personality that really captures the spirit of common sense investing the way folks like Buffet, Bogle, or Swensen did for a prior generation.

It's doubtful any of the fundamental content or messages would need to change… just trying to make it relevant to people who've learned to tune it out.

Things that pique my curiosity on this front are some of these newer apps that suggests millennials can save for retirement with spare change. I'm skeptical at the underlying soundness of their “smart portfolios” but am intrigued at how they are marketing to a generation of people who are skeptical of investing and financial markets as a whole but who do want to save for retirement.
Bill Bernstein did the best job I've seen yet at trying to package and deliver Boglehead fundamentals to millennials in the most effective way. His "If You Can" ebook is excellent and that's my go to material to send to anyone who expresses an interest.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:35 pm

bigred77 wrote:Bill Bernstein did the best job I've seen yet at trying to package and deliver Boglehead fundamentals to millennials in the most effective way. His "If You Can" ebook is excellent and that's my go to material to send to anyone who expresses an interest.
Agree wholeheartedly. Women and men should seek good information provided by women and men. Resorting to stereotypes such as women can only read blogs written in pink or men can only discuss finance in terms of four-factor models, is detrimental to the financial success of women and men.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Meg77 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:49 pm

I just want to say that my dad bought the book "Rich Bi*ch" by Nicole Lapin for my 20-something sister, and I picked it up casually over the weekend at her house expecting to roll my eyes. She's a young professional female (or was when it was published), and to my surprise I ended up reading the whole thing. It's very engaging and has a lot of unique content. There is personal finance stuff (details on retirement account types and the importance of compound interest, credit scores, etc.) toward the middle and end, but a lot of it is really interesting and motivating advice/commentary regarding setting goals, launching/navigating a career, dating & money, and other topics much more relevant that asset allocation to a 20-something. She uses her own story, mistakes and triumphs included, and the whole thing has a Girl Power type of vibe. Your daughter may truly enjoy it - and also learn some things about managing money.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin

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