Investing Education and Mansplaining

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Jozxyqk
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Jozxyqk » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:24 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Some people have the gift of explaining and others don't. Many college professors have honed the art of explaining well. My favorite professors are Daniel Kahneman, Dan Ariely, Dan Gilbert--all men.
No no -- that's Dansplaining. We're talking about something completely different.

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VictoriaF
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:34 pm

Jozxyqk wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Some people have the gift of explaining and others don't. Many college professors have honed the art of explaining well. My favorite professors are Daniel Kahneman, Dan Ariely, Dan Gilbert--all men.
No no -- that's Dansplaining. We're talking about something completely different.
Thank you for giving me a laugh!

Victoria
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*3!4!/5!
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by *3!4!/5! » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:43 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Jozxyqk wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Some people have the gift of explaining and others don't. Many college professors have honed the art of explaining well. My favorite professors are Daniel Kahneman, Dan Ariely, Dan Gilbert--all men.
No no -- that's Dansplaining. We're talking about something completely different.
Thank you for giving me a laugh!
But, no! That's not what Dansplaining actually is. Dansplaining is when a high school dropout named Dan, condescendingly explains something to a world expert not named Dan. This is a very real phenomenon, or at least it was once real, several decades before the term was first coined.

InMyDreams
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by InMyDreams » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:57 pm

It sounds like she has two reasons she shuts out hearing you? Lotta discussion about taking advice from a man, not so much advice about taking advice from older generations.
Would she read something like Mr. Money Mustache?
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/

What about advice from a member of the older generation, about how the younger generation can get ahead? Bernstein's free download for millennials comes to mind.

And there's the feeling common in her generation that it doesn't matter what you do/save - it's not going to available to them when they are the "older generation". Not sure what to do about that, except I think Bernstein addresses it.

Finally, can you give her a saving incentive, offering to match her savings for a year?

Thesaints
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Thesaints » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:43 pm

nedsaid wrote:I don't know, I have been "quantsplained" here many times by people who believe investing is an engineering problem or a math equation. Don't get me wrong, the math is helpful and vital, but it has limitations, mostly due to irrational humans and their behavior in the investment markets. Can't tell you how many times I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.
Excessive use of math in finance only allows to make large errors with great accuracy.

mattfr
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by mattfr » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:19 pm

Please note, the OPs daughter's well-being in life goes far beyond financial fitness, and demonstrates a need for increased critical thinking skills used to objectively analyze ideas regardless of the gender of the individual who presents them.

Christina Hoff Summers, a professor and fellow at the American Enterprise Institute lays things out rather neatly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhtJ0YB ... g2yDfu7Xmd

The absence of critical thinking skills may significantly impair future success.

*3!4!/5!
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by *3!4!/5! » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:46 pm

nedsaid wrote:I don't know, I have been "quantsplained" here many times by people who believe investing is an engineering problem or a math equation. Don't get me wrong, the math is helpful and vital, but it has limitations, mostly due to irrational humans and their behavior in the investment markets. Can't tell you how many times I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.
Ah yes, the volatility drag thread. You were saying that a "factor tilted" portfolio benefits from diversification but a plain vanilla "untilted" portfolio, such as a three fund portfolio, does not benefit from diversification, since a person with a three fund portfolio is not even trying. Not everyone agrees. In such a discussion, I'm not sure who should be called the quantsplainer and who should be called the quantsplainee.

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nedsaid
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by nedsaid » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:08 am

*3!4!/5! wrote:
nedsaid wrote:I don't know, I have been "quantsplained" here many times by people who believe investing is an engineering problem or a math equation. Don't get me wrong, the math is helpful and vital, but it has limitations, mostly due to irrational humans and their behavior in the investment markets. Can't tell you how many times I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.
Ah yes, the volatility drag thread. You were saying that a "factor tilted" portfolio benefits from diversification but a plain vanilla "untilted" portfolio, such as a three fund portfolio, does not benefit from diversification, since a person with a three fund portfolio is not even trying. Not everyone agrees. In such a discussion, I'm not sure who should be called the quantsplainer and who should be called the quantsplainee.
What I said was that factor tilted portfolios attempt to deal with the "problem" of volatility drag, if it even exists at all. In my earlier posts in the thread, I questioned whether the phenomenon even existed. The quants in the group said that volatility drag existed in a mathematical sense, and I sort of agreed. After all, even I had the desire for a smoother ride in my portfolio. I further said that if volatility drag exists, an investor might not be able to do anything about it in actual practice. The factor tilting is an attempt to address volatility drag by putting together volatile asset classes that don't necessarily correlate with each other, hopefully some will zig as the others zag, the result being a smoother ride in portfolio performance.

A three fund portfolio is diversified across asset classes but as Larry Swedroe might say, not diversified by factors. US and International Stocks tend to take turns outperforming each other and much of this is a currency effect. This would help, hopefully, to reduce volatility drag on a portfolio. Stocks and bonds usually don't correlate with each other and this would help reduce volatility drag, but since the returns of bonds are less over time than for stocks, the cost will be lower returns for lower volatility. In theory, the protection against volatility drag for this kind of portfolio would be less than for a factor tilted portfolio.

A factor tilted portfolio not only has the US vs International dynamic but also Large vs Small and Growth vs Value. A DFA portfolio adds a dash of Momentum so to a degree you get Momentum vs Value. So you have more pieces doing the zig vs zag thing and in theory you should get less volatility drag.

In many other posts, I further explained that factor tilting worked great during the 2000-2002 bear market but during the 2008-2009 bear market, most everything crashed and thus didn't work the second time.

So pretty much, I am back to where I started. First, I have doubts that volatility drag is a real phenomenon. It seems to be an observation that markets are unpredictable and volatile. It is the old observation that a 50% drop in price then requires a 100% increase from there to get back to even. Knowing that, we would all like to have market returns but with less than market volatility. Second, even if volatility drag is a phenomenon that can be observed using math, that in actual practice it is difficult to do anything about it.

My point was that I was a volatility drag skeptic, but even in my skepticism tried to do something about it with factor tilting. The person who argued so fervently that volatility drag was a real effect then said that a three fund portfolio was enough. My argument was that my debate partner chose to not address the problem. I couldn't help but see irony in that.

In summary, a factor tilted portfolio is diversified across asset classes and factors. A plain vanilla three fund portfolio is diversified across only asset classes. The essence of the disagreement is the efficacy of factors and if volatility drag is a real world phenomenon.
A fool and his money are good for business.

Da5id
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Da5id » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:13 am

Dottie57 wrote:OP, I did not want advise from parents at that point. It was after being out on my own for a couple of years when I realized how smart my parents were.
Reminds me of a quote often attributed (apparently incorrectly) to Mark Twain:
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.

benevo
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by benevo » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:15 am

fposte wrote:(Can I ask whose idea the timing and the investing videos are--yours or your daughter's? That may factor into the reception as well.)
I agree with this - her reception sounds more like, "Dad, I'm not interested in this" more than "this is a man telling me what to do." Just the way I read it, at least!

Granted, her not interested in it is a different story!

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by MichaelRpdx » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:40 am

InMyDreams wrote:It sounds like she has two reasons she shuts out hearing you? Lotta discussion about taking advice from a man, not so much advice about taking advice from older generations.
Would she read something like Mr. Money Mustache?
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/
My wife hates that name. Likes the advice, hates the name.
For your daughter perhaps find a few of the articles from Mrs. Money Mustache to get her started.

Mr. and Mrs. MM worked together to become financially independent around age 30, live in Colorado, and have a son.
Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity

wrongfunds
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:09 am

Interesting observation:-

Almost all of the known female contributors here (both long term and short term) have strong and stubborn personality. I am not going to name any names but some recent discussions about buying McMansion or doing post-nuptial topic would tell you that they do not back down that easily. Most of men contributors give up lot quicker when they get overwhelmingly "don't do it" advice.

It seems to be extension of the old adage where in a man dominated field women (or a black man in traditionally white man's career) have be at least twice good if she has to succeed.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by gkaplan » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:05 pm

wrongfunds wrote:Interesting observation:-

Almost all of the known female contributors here (both long term and short term) have strong and stubborn personality. I am not going to name any names but some recent discussions about buying McMansion or doing post-nuptial topic would tell you that they do not back down that easily. Most of men contributors give up lot quicker when they get overwhelmingly "don't do it" advice.

It seems to be extension of the old adage where in a man dominated field women (or a black man in traditionally white man's career) have be at least twice good if she has to succeed.
Believe much in stereotyping?
Gordon

Thesaints
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Thesaints » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:07 pm

wrongfunds wrote: It seems to be extension of the old adage where in a man dominated field women (or a black man in traditionally white man's career) have be at least twice good if she has to succeed.
This adage must date back to times before AA...

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rcjchicity
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by rcjchicity » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:07 pm

As a former 22-year old female, my take that this is less about mansplaining than dadsplaining. She doesn't want to hear what dear old dad has to say on financial matters. Trotting out a bunch of female personal finance experts will probably seem patronizing to her. So, instead, set a good Bogleheads' example. In a few years when she's in the trenches of her "big girl job", she'll come to you for recommendations.

TTBG
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by TTBG » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:04 pm

There were too many posts for me to read thru, so maybe someone already said this, but I can't resist responding to a post with mansplaining in the title, so here's my 2 cents:
- In my experience 22 year olds, male or female, are not very receptive to unsolicited advice. Wait till she asks you.
- The young adults in my life seem to find useful information on reddit, in the personal finance subreddit.
- I've given them all a copy of Bogleheads Guide to Investing for Christmas at some point. I have no idea if they've read it.
- I tried to instill financial responsibility in them as they were growing up. You probably did too. That's the best we can do.

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House Blend
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by House Blend » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:53 am

TTBG wrote:- In my experience 22 year olds, male or female, are not very receptive to unsolicited advice. Wait till she asks you.
There's a brief window when children actually obey their parents. (Never mind that maybe in some cases the window never opens.) That leads to parents picking up bad habits while their children are maturing. They (parents) need to re-learn that the natural state of human relationships is that no one likes unsolicited advice.

And young adults sometimes take a while to learn this in the first place, leading to the phenomenon of "kidsplaining", wherein the young and inexperienced are unaware that they know and understand less than the audience to which they are condescending.

There's plenty of that here on this forum, especially among those too young to have passed through the events of 2007-09 with real money at stake.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Fallible » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:28 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:Thank you for all these thoughtful, insightful and - most of all - humbling comments. You've given me a lot to think about, and really changed my perspective on the issue raised in my original post.

Small Law ...
Glad it helped you, but we never did hear from your daughter, so we did not have both sides of the story.
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Small Law Survivor
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Small Law Survivor » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:02 pm

Fallible wrote:Glad it helped you, but we never did hear from your daughter, so we did not have both sides of the story.
I haven't shared this with my daughter, but taking the advice here I've back wayyyyy off :happy

livesoft
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by livesoft » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:15 pm

Maybe an anecdote to show all is not lost:

My millennial daughter* switched employers and has a new 401(k). She called Mom for some advice on what to funds choose. Both are engineers in similar fields. Mom said, "Ask Dad and follow Dad's advice. That's what I would recommend." And that's what my daughter did.

*Remember this is the daughter who on a job site got "We'll just wait for the engineer to get here in order to explain things" and answered "I'm the [redacted] engineer, so let's start now."
Last edited by livesoft on Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wrongfunds
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:45 pm

Don't use that word here; I got severely reprimanded when I made a joke about how to answer interview question "how do you feel about workplace swearing? would you have any problem if other employees routinely swear". And I used all "****" unlike you who only used single "-".

livesoft
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by livesoft » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:34 pm

Hmmm, maybe that was why she was recruited to her new employer? Or maybe that was why her previous employer only went so far to try to keep her? So staying on-topic, someone can mansplain that to me.
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SGM
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by SGM » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:48 pm

I haven't had time to read all the posts. Dadsplaining is a problem I have tried to avoid with my own children. The solution may be to let Vanguard deal with it at 0.3% for the advice. When they learn enough maybe they can do the financial management on their own.

wrongfunds
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by wrongfunds » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:51 pm

I generally try to have my elder son talk to younger son regarding financial issues. I think that works better than me talking to him.

2stepsbehind
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by 2stepsbehind » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:47 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:07 pm
wrongfunds wrote: It seems to be extension of the old adage where in a man dominated field women (or a black man in traditionally white man's career) have be at least twice good if she has to succeed.
This adage must date back to times before AA...
::eye-roll:: It continues to this day as women and people of color have to overcome not only discrimination, but noxious stereotyping. Until you've been in the position of being in the minority in a field where many of your coworkers and/or superiors believe you don't belong or are incapable of performing (see, e.g., the recent Google kerfuffle) you will not understand the added toil/pressure that requires/creates.

windrose
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by windrose » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:17 am
We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.
Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)
I completely disagree with this, and have a hunch that is is your technique that is the problem.

Sometimes someone just needs a pen. They don't need to know how the pen is made. Most of the knowledge we acquire in life is not learned at a desk, spoon-fed, starting from the beginning, in a neat, comprehensive form, with nice videos and powerpoint presentations. And the problem with that method is that the material seems very theory based...and by the time you come across a real life scenario where it applies, you probably don't remember half of it, anyway.

I think many people--especially the younger generation.--learn material better in a hands-on, on the fly, learn as you go/do method. And I think when you learn that way, you retain it. I would approach the subject with more of a Socratic Method (and since you are a lawyer, I'm sure you know how!) Ask her if she ever wants to own a home. Ask her what she would do if she got sick/injured and could no longer work. Ask her how she plans to have income when she is retired. THEN you explain how the pen/homeownership/disability/retirement is made. If you do it right, and ask the questions in the right way, your ideas will become her conclusions. :happy

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by sophie1 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:51 am

I think "mansplaining" is just Millenial tween-speak for "I don't want to hear a lecture from my parents". Which is standard 22-year-old behavior. The veneer of social-justice-warrior is annoying but beside the point.

You might try a more indirect approach. There's a Frontline episode called "The Retirement Gamble" that you could point her to (it's on iTunes or accessible on PBS with a paid subscription), with interviews with victims of 2008 and also with Jack Bogle, who comes across as delightfully non-authoritarian and soft-spoken. I also bought my 19 year old niece a Kindle copy of "The Richest Man in Babylon", which reads like a series of parables. She loved it.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by evilityb » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:02 pm

bigred77 wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:04 pm
Seeing mansplaining debated on Bogleheads is better than I could have ever hoped for :D
Seriously. :mrgreen: I opened this thread and knew I couldn't read it without a giant bowl of popcorn.
Make sure the fortune that you seek is the fortune you need - Ben Harper

TSR
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by TSR » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:11 pm

Your daughter is still an adolescent. We pretend otherwise for legal purposes, but all science says otherwise. She is likely smart and strong-willed, and she doesn't like the fact that she doesn't know everything yet. I didn't either at that age (I'm male). Here's the thing though: your advice is getting through, however slowly. No need to push it. The "mansplaining" thing is a bit of a red herring, whether it's you who's most worried about it or her (although it's a great thing for anyone to be concerned about, including parents). It's always good to be humble as a parent and remember that your children have a different view on the world than you do, but this financial stuff is good advice to be giving. She'll hear it one day.

Good luck!

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