Investing Education and Mansplaining

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Small Law Survivor
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Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Small Law Survivor » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:17 am

Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining.

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)

fposte
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by fposte » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:22 am

There are several long Jane Bryant Quinn videos on YouTube--just use her name in the search terms. I bet some of those would suit.

(Can I ask whose idea the timing and the investing videos are--yours or your daughter's? That may factor into the reception as well.)

delamer
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by delamer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:06 am

Christine Benz at Morningstar is another possibility. Don't know if she has videos, but definitely some good articles.

There isn't a woman in the world who hasn't been subjected to mansplaining about something, and sometimes by her father.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:16 am

Gotcha! Okay, folks can say what they want about her, but girlfriend her "can you afford it videos on YouTube are the best. Got that girlfriend, Suze Orman. Not that woman'splaining is any better! :oops:
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mhalley
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by mhalley » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:17 am

I feel like I just had mansplainin' mansplained to me.
Suze Orman isn't great, but not too bad. I really don't understand these people. Who do they think knows stuff? You dont see that many 20 year olds that are experts.
Jill Schlesinger has a podcast that is pretty good. http://betteroffpodcast.com/
I am not familiar with these bloggers but you might check them out. Not videos, but maybe they have podcasts.
http://www.clevergirlfinance.com/blog/2 ... ce-experts
http://nataliebacon.com/finance-blogger ... ey-advice/

Palatineman
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Palatineman » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:19 am

I could say, Suzy Orman always seems to come across as "Womansplaining" to me. It cuts both ways.

So long as the advice being offered is beneficial to the individual in the long run with no ill-will and malice (think Bernie Madoff), we should all be grateful for any financial advice that allows us to become more successful and secure in life.

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nedsaid
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by nedsaid » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:20 am

Good advice given here. There are plenty of good female financial experts out there.

Daughter needs to learn to open her mind to learn from wherever and whomever she can. If anything that a man says is "mansplaining", she is going to run into problems in the work world. You have to deal with a wide variety of people out there. In college, I had great professors and professors that were boring. I tried my best to learn even from the boring ones.

I actually feel that women have an advantage over men in personal finance and investing. Much of it is related to ego, there seems to be less of an ego problem and a greater openness to asking questions and getting help.
A fool and his money are good for business.

Carefreeap
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Carefreeap » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:32 am

nedsaid wrote:Good advice given here. There are plenty of good female financial experts out there.

Daughter needs to learn to open her mind to learn from wherever and whomever she can. If anything that a man says is "mansplaining", she is going to run into problems in the work world. You have to deal with a wide variety of people out there. In college, I had great professors and professors that were boring. I tried my best to learn even from the boring ones.

I actually feel that women have an advantage over men in personal finance and investing. Much of it is related to ego, there seems to be less of an ego problem and a greater openness to asking questions and getting help.


This is an excellent post. :thumbsup

I've had a couple of women make comments along the lines of "mansplaining" and I've stated that I think these guys are condescending to everyone. I am not a special snowflake!

creditdefaultswaps
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by creditdefaultswaps » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:45 am

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it.


When is acceptable to make judgements of folks based simply on their race or gender? It's not. I don't agree that you're taking the right approach to just accepting it and not arguing with it.

I think it'd be healthier as parent to go ahead and let your adult daughter know that, in fact, blowing someone off because of their race or gender is indeed wrong. Try and teach her to think critically and investigate the credentials, background and experience of the person talking before rushing towards an assumption.

If she refuses to understand, then you've done your job and you can carry on your life while she ultimately learns the hard way. But by giving in and finding non-white male resources to help her learn, aren't you reinforcing her stereotypes and essentially doing to the white male what the white male has been admonished for in the last century?

staythecourse
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by staythecourse » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:48 am

Carefreeap wrote:
nedsaid wrote:Good advice given here. There are plenty of good female financial experts out there.

Daughter needs to learn to open her mind to learn from wherever and whomever she can. If anything that a man says is "mansplaining", she is going to run into problems in the work world. You have to deal with a wide variety of people out there. In college, I had great professors and professors that were boring. I tried my best to learn even from the boring ones.

I actually feel that women have an advantage over men in personal finance and investing. Much of it is related to ego, there seems to be less of an ego problem and a greater openness to asking questions and getting help.


This is an excellent post. :thumbsup

I've had a couple of women make comments along the lines of "mansplaining" and I've stated that I think these guys are condescending to everyone. I am not a special snowflake!


Beat me to it. Honestly, if this was my daughter I would be A LOT more worried about her future beyond investing. If one has that type of personality I can say there is very little chance she will be successful in any aspect of life. At work she will have bosses, colleagues, and folks below her that are men, if she is heterosexual obviously it will impact her relationship with men, and everyday life will be hard if she is not willing to listen to the opposite sex just dealing with folks during her normal daily life (grocery stores, department stores, mechanics, etc...). I would have serious concerns for her future if this really is part of her personality.

Now that being said are you SURE the issue is men or is it something else, such as: Having your Dad give any advice (always annoying no matter how old you are), just not being interested in personal finance so feels it is a waste of time, or just rebelling just because she knows it is important to you?

Good luck.

p.s. Never heard of that term until now. Is there a similar term the opposite way as in men who don't like listening to woman? If not, that is a pretty sexist term as there are as many if not more men who don't like to men. Or is there a term of woman not listening to woman or men not listening to men?
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8foot7
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by 8foot7 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:56 am

I have no problems accepting education and input from women and I am a man. I even have no problems with it when women explain to me things I already know. How would they know what I do and don't know? Do they have an index of all the things I've learned? Of course not. If someone else can't do the same, it is immature and unprofessional.

csc-az
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by csc-az » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:06 pm

Does the educational material have to be in video form? Perhaps due to your daughter's prejudice against men, it would be better to direct her toward written material where the sex and skin color of the speaker isn't obvious.

That said, it's a pretty sad situation. Are you sure she is in a position to learn about investing now?

investingdad
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by investingdad » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:45 pm

My engineering manager is both female and younger than I. No issues for me based on mutual respect.

The OPs daughter will eventually have a rude awakening.

Palatineman
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Palatineman » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:51 pm

"Does the educational material have to be in video form? Perhaps due to your daughter's prejudice against men, it would be better to direct her toward written material where the sex and skin color of the speaker isn't obvious.

That said, it's a pretty sad situation. Are you sure she is in a position to learn about investing now?"

This really is a sad state of affairs. I came to this forum to get and provide objective advice on how to take best advantage of Personal Finance issues, regardless of race, gender, class, national origin, politics, etc.

For me this is a community where purity in terms of guidance was offered to the betterment of it's members, with no corruption, solicitation and discrimination involved.

Instead this post suggests that men offering financial advice are a pariah that should be avoided and to deliberately seek out advice from a woman (whether they may be the best option or not).

Before I here any nonsense about not respecting women, I will not respond to any of the critics by emphasizing ALL individuals in this world strive to do the best they can to survive and thrive.

The one's that do this, respectfully like my 85 year old mom, who I currently support and live with and who has sacrificed so much for me and my family, have the strength and determination that this snowflake generation will never have with this kind of short-sightedness.

I can't believe the OP seriously posted this.

ny_knicks
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by ny_knicks » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:05 pm

People hear what they want to hear. Perhaps she isn't ready to listen to "investing education" and the "mansplaining" is just an excuse to not have to deal with it at this point in her life. Can try getting her a book or two and seeing if she takes to that.

If that is not the case and she really goes through life selectively choosing to listen to only non-white males she is going to have bigger problems than whether it's best to contribute to a Roth or 401k. Not sure there is much you can do to break that at this point. Reality will eventually catch up with her.

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carorun
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by carorun » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:06 pm

I understand where your DD is coming from. Maybe she'll grow out of it, maybe not, but I agree with others that she'll have to learn to deal with condescending personalities in the workplace.

I think part of her issue isn't really mansplaining; its feeling like older, out of touch people are telling her how to live her life. Unfortunately most personal finance authors are older.

Not a Suze Orman fan now but I used to be. I enjoy Michelle Singletary a lot. She writes for the Washington Post and has a very down to earth, middle class approach to personal finance.

runner540
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by runner540 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:10 pm

In addition to the good references upthread, Sallie Krawcheck has good career and financial articles published on LinkedIn. Reading aboit what she had to endure in her office in the 80s is shocking. (She does have a financial advisory platform that she is promoting).

KyleAAA
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by KyleAAA » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:13 pm

I think most here are misunderstanding the problem with mansplaining. Consider this scenario: a woman has a PhD in a particular subject, let's call it molecular biology. A man who doesn't know anything about this woman, and with no real expertise of his own in the subject (i.e. he does not have a PhD in molecular biology) tries to (incorrectly) explain the subject to the woman. When the women informs the man that she is, in fact, an acknowledged expert in the field the man persists in arguing the subject even though he is provably wrong. This type of thing is EXTREMELY common. Wouldn't that annoy you? It has nothing to do with the gender of the person doing the mansplaining, it's just that 99% of the time that person is a man, hence the term.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:17 pm

here are a few interviews (and/or you can just read the transcripts) from Michael Kitces with several successful women in the financial industry:

https://www.kitces.com/blog/liz-davidso ... aried-cfp/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/sophia-bera ... iner-fees/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/angie-herbe ... -business/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/deena-katz- ... anagement/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/dana-anspac ... umulation/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/eleanor-bla ... -services/

This week’s guest is Sophia Bera, the founder of Gen Y Planning, a financial advisory firm that is successfully and profitably delivering financial planning to Millennials. source: https://www.kitces.com/blog/sophia-bera ... iner-fees/


Our guest this week is Deena Katz, the co-chairwoman of Evensky & Katz / Foldes Financial, a $1.6 billion independent RIA in Coral Gables, Florida. In addition, Deena is an author, editor, and contributor to 9 books on financial planning and wealth management, including 3 specifically on practice management for financial advisors… one of which had a tremendous impact on me when I was early in my own career!

More recently, Deena transitioned from financial advising to academia, and is now a professor in the financial planning program at Texas Tech University as well! Though in point of fact, Deena’s transition to becoming a professor isn’t entirely surprising, because she was also a teacher early in her career before making the change into financial planning almost 40 years ago. source: https://www.kitces.com/blog/deena-katz- ... anagement/


My guest on today’s podcast is Dana Anspach. Dana is a financial advisor and the founder of Sensible Money, an advisory firm based in Scottsdale, Arizona, that oversees more than $130 million of investment assets for retired – or nearly-retired – Baby Boomer clients.

What’s unique about Dana’s advisory business, though, is that while the industry has been focused on the idea that younger Gen X and Gen Y clients will want to work with financial advisors virtually, Dana has built a firm where all of her 110 virtual clients – from as far away as Hawaii and Alaska – are Baby Boomers, not Millennials. And Dana attracts those virtual Baby Boomer clients to her specialized retirement planning solutions through her online writing on platforms like About.com’s Money Over 55 section, Marketwatch’s RetireMentors, and her own book “Control Your Retirement Destiny”, which collectively are generating over 100 online prospects every year. And those virtual Baby Boomer prospects start by filling out a 40-question pre-meeting data gathering form, just to have the opportunity to talk to someone on Dana’s team about potentially working with the firm! source: https://www.kitces.com/blog/dana-anspac ... umulation/


On this episode, I talk with Eleanor Blayney about the challenges of growing an independent RIA as a woman in a male-dominated industry, starting with how she first learned of the world of financial advice by reading about it in MONEY and Washingtonian magazines, and then cold called well-known advisors in the DC area until she found her way to her first job… and followed a path that ultimately led to her to becoming a partner at the firm despite not bringing her own book of clients.

From there, Eleanor talks about how SBSB grew its first billion of AUM so rapidly, by providing a combination of financial planning, investment management, and tax preparation services and forming a niche specialization advising on stock options for tech companies during the 1990s tech boom, and what it was like to sell the firm and transition into her current role as an author and industry advocate.

And be certain to listen to the end, where Eleanor weighs in on the controversial question of whether women should be considered a “niche” in financial services, and her advice on how to survive as a woman in a male-dominated industry (and what male advisors could do to be more supportive of industry diversity!).

So whether you’re a woman trying to find your own path in the world of financial planning, or simply an advisory firm owner looking for inspiration on how to carve a path to a billion dollar firm, I hope you enjoy this latest episode of the Financial Advisor Success podcast with Eleanor Blayney! source: https://www.kitces.com/blog/eleanor-bla ... -services/

Enjoy!
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

CyclingDuo
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by CyclingDuo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:22 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining.

We could argue about whether this is right or wrong, why it's the case, or how widespread it is, but it would be a waste of time. When you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Better to accept it and deal with it than argue against it. Some women are more open to learning from women than men - that's a fact, and my daughter is in that group. Frankly, my wife is too. And, a lot of women relatives of all ages seem to prefer to learn from women.

So - if anyone knows of a source of video education on investing that features women educators, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Small Law Survivor (a guy)


Been there done that. My daughter is also 22. Just started her career this month with her first full time job including benefits. I gave her (as well as my son) plenty of earfuls over the years about investing, so learned when to shut up.

I seriously don't think it has anything to do with "mansplaining". Your daughter is young and focused on other things in her life right now that are much more important to her (even though investing and saving is important to you). It's not for her, yet.

Ask yourself this question: "When you were 22, were you seriously worried about investing and diving through stuff by Paul Merriman, or Bogleheads?" Or were you more interested in other things....? As a guy, I would have bopped my Dad over the head, or given him a good swift kick with a frozen boot if he had come at me with videos and investing overkill advice. :annoyed

You've introduced her to some things. Let all of that sink in for a bit of time (even if it takes a year or two or more). My daughter would roll her eyes and let me have it if I pushed to hard. I can just imagine what would have happened if I came at her with videos of Paul Merriman, let alone had her check out Bogleheads.

22 year olds (male or female) need to meet friends. Socialize. Get going in their first job(s). Hook up with others. Enjoy life while they are young. Let her be for now. Let her see what those paychecks bring in, how she budgets, and how things are going for a few months to a year. Perhaps she'll bring it up in the future, which opens the door for you to talk to her. But go easy, with no overkill. Keep it simple.

Perhaps you could offer to go over her benefits plan with her first full time job, but don't push beyond that.

fposte
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by fposte » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:24 pm

nedsaid wrote:Good advice given here. There are plenty of good female financial experts out there.

Daughter needs to learn to open her mind to learn from wherever and whomever she can.


Though daughter may also have been using this frame as a way to get dad to back off on a topic she wasn't looking to get unsolicited tutoring on in the moment. It may not so much be mansplaining that bothered her as dadsplaining.

OP, did your daughter ask for financial advice from you? Are videos the form she requested? If not, that's a pretty daunting assignment to give another adult (I know you grew her, but she is an grownup); we're getting into the common thread territory of "how do I make another adult understand finances the way I do?" And while we love to give suggestions, the ultimate answer usually is "Unless they want to, you can't."

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bayview » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:45 pm

staythecourse wrote:
Carefreeap wrote:
nedsaid wrote:Good advice given here. There are plenty of good female financial experts out there.

Daughter needs to learn to open her mind to learn from wherever and whomever she can. If anything that a man says is "mansplaining", she is going to run into problems in the work world. You have to deal with a wide variety of people out there. In college, I had great professors and professors that were boring. I tried my best to learn even from the boring ones.

I actually feel that women have an advantage over men in personal finance and investing. Much of it is related to ego, there seems to be less of an ego problem and a greater openness to asking questions and getting help.


This is an excellent post. :thumbsup

I've had a couple of women make comments along the lines of "mansplaining" and I've stated that I think these guys are condescending to everyone. I am not a special snowflake!


Beat me to it. Honestly, if this was my daughter I would be A LOT more worried about her future beyond investing. If one has that type of personality I can say there is very little chance she will be successful in any aspect of life. At work she will have bosses, colleagues, and folks below her that are men, if she is heterosexual obviously it will impact her relationship with men, and everyday life will be hard if she is not willing to listen to the opposite sex just dealing with folks during her normal daily life (grocery stores, department stores, mechanics, etc...). I would have serious concerns for her future if this really is part of her personality.

Now that being said are you SURE the issue is men or is it something else, such as: Having your Dad give any advice (always annoying no matter how old you are), just not being interested in personal finance so feels it is a waste of time, or just rebelling just because she knows it is important to you?

Good luck.

p.s. Never heard of that term until now. Is there a similar term the opposite way as in men who don't like listening to woman? If not, that is a pretty sexist term as there are as many if not more men who don't like to men. Or is there a term of woman not listening to woman or men not listening to men?

I call it "male-pattern deafness." :D

I suppose it's a cliche to say that there is generally some truth in a cliche. Women often feel that men are being patronizing, and men often feel that women are nagging. Self-monitoring is useful on both the speakers' and listeners' sides.
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by MichaelRpdx » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:49 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women ...
This is not confined to the northeast. Hopefully your daughter will learn to discriminate between mansplaining and explaining. Hopefully she'll learn how to winnow the value from any message and toss out the chaff of attitude that she currently ascribes to all male messages.

in the meantime Christine Benz, with videos too, from Morningstar and the other fine female sources listed by others will provide plenty of financial education.
Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity

acanthurus
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by acanthurus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:55 pm

One of the most difficult lessons I learned in my twenties was that it wasn't what I thought that mattered, it was how I thought that mattered. If I let the immaterial aspects of the presentation of an idea or an argument dissuade me from considering its merits, I am only doing myself a disservice. Sometimes that means tolerating a little condescension.

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reriodan
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by reriodan » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:01 pm

Your daughter seems very closed minded and it seems like trying to work that out would be better than teaching her investment advice at this stage.

Anyway, are you sure that it's not just that investment videos are boring? I mean, the videos ARE boring and I even consider myself interested in the subject. I have never watched them fully. Most people in their early 20's, even most people in general outside this board, aren't going to be interested in the subject, so it's probably going to be boring, so maybe it's getting tuned out because it is boring.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Bastiat » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:09 pm

KyleAAA wrote:I think most here are misunderstanding the problem with mansplaining. Consider this scenario: a woman has a PhD in a particular subject, let's call it molecular biology. A man who doesn't know anything about this woman, and with no real expertise of his own in the subject (i.e. he does not have a PhD in molecular biology) tries to (incorrectly) explain the subject to the woman. When the women informs the man that she is, in fact, an acknowledged expert in the field the man persists in arguing the subject even though he is provably wrong. This type of thing is EXTREMELY common. Wouldn't that annoy you? It has nothing to do with the gender of the person doing the mansplaining, it's just that 99% of the time that person is a man, hence the term.


The OP's daughter is not a PhD in finance. If that were the issue, she wouldn't be unable to take financial advice from men.

If it were my daughter I'd tell her to grow up.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by peppers » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:13 pm

Speaking as a father of 4, when graduation came, investing and retirement planning were not on the to do list. Long range planning usually involved the social agenda for the following weekend. You're only 22 once.
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by nedsaid » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:13 pm

bayview wrote:I call it "male-pattern deafness." :D

I suppose it's a cliche to say that there is generally some truth in a cliche. Women often feel that men are being patronizing, and men often feel that women are nagging. Self-monitoring is useful on both the speakers' and listeners' sides.


It works both ways. I do think "mansplaining" is a genuine phenomenon but I have been talked down to by women, too.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by montanagirl » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:29 pm

Videos are a drag. They take too much time to watch. Short written articles would be more convenient.

Dottie57
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:32 pm

OP, I did not want advise from parents at that point. It was after being out on my own for a couple of years when I realized how smart my parents were.

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Mlm
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Mlm » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:34 pm

As a former 22 year old woman I might be able to give you a little advice...butt out Dad.
I'm sure there is a video if your interested :wink:

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MichaelRpdx
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by MichaelRpdx » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:55 pm

montanagirl wrote:Videos are a drag. They take too much time to watch. Short written articles would be more convenient.

You are so old school. :)
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skjoldur
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by skjoldur » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:57 pm

For the record, I believe the origin of the term mansplaining is generally associated with an essay by Rebecca Solnit from 2008, although she did not use or coin the term.

Her very amusing essay called "Men Explain Things to Me" can be read here:

https://www.guernicamag.com/rebecca-sol ... ngs-to-me/

It riffs on the story of someone explaining her own book to her, to talk about a particular mode of overconfident, uninformed, confrontational explaining.

Thesaints
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Thesaints » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:01 pm

Is the OP sure it is aversion to mansplaining and not just genuine disinterest for financial themes ?

mrsytf
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by mrsytf » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:04 pm

It may not necessarily be mansplaining rather old person-splaining. At 22, she may fee that she is never gonna get old.
Why don't you introduce her to some millennial blogs (i can't remember any off hand but they usually include the work millennial in them) or perhaps give her a copy of the book by Sethi, "I will teach you how to be rich."

I read Jane Bryant Quinn's book on retirement and my eyes glazed over on the first chapter regarding SS. It seems just so far away and I am 20 years older than your daughter.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Lynette » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:25 pm

I won't even start on examples from 50 years ago in the work place about mansplaining. Actually I think that in general people have become more sensitive to and are not so condescending anymore. I'm remodeling my house and recently I was at a Big Box Store and laughing accused an elderly gentleman of not wanting to sell an elderly woman (me) a Chain saw. I've got lots of other examples of that. Tell your daughter there is still some condescension towards women. In certain fields she will still need to prove she is as good - or better than other guys.

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FIREchief
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by FIREchief » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:55 pm

Well, I've never heard the term before, but I would imagine that I've been guilty of it once or twice. :D

That said, maybe the OP can improve the situation by putting his money where his mouth is (no disrespect intended, just a figure of speech). How about offering to "donate" $2500 to your daughter's (new or existing) Roth IRA to help her get her investing life off to a good start. Only condition is that she spend an hour or so with "dad" setting up an on-line account, linking it to her bank account, and making an initial investment in a Boglehead approved index fund. Also an understanding that the money will stay put and they'll talk about how it's doing once a year for the next two or three years. All great opportunity to talk about index funds, AA, how easy it is to invest, etc. Like it or not, most 22 year olds (or 42 year olds or 62 year olds) may not be the most willing listeners, but they can be bought (myself included).
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

bayview
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bayview » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:04 pm

nedsaid wrote:
bayview wrote:I call it "male-pattern deafness." :D

I suppose it's a cliche to say that there is generally some truth in a cliche. Women often feel that men are being patronizing, and men often feel that women are nagging. Self-monitoring is useful on both the speakers' and listeners' sides.


It works both ways. I do think "mansplaining" is a genuine phenomenon but I have been talked down to by women, too.

That's kind of what I said. Or tried to. :confused

I first encountered mansplaining in the early seventies when I was in college driving a piece of junk with a problematic battery. My father had taught me how to use jumper cables --this was NOT mansplaining --and when I needed a jump, I ignored the frequent advice from guys to hook up the cables to the wrong terminals, but I took the jump. That's called accepting useful info from whatever source and discounting the rest. Oh, and hooking up my stereo system (remember those?) Daddy was an audiophile, and by golly, I knew how to set up my system.

Anyway, regarding the original post, my parents were pretty frugal but never, ever talked to me about money or anything that might be remotely useful in my life. I just sort of floundered around until I figured things out for myself.

When the point finally came that I was earning more than paycheck-to-paycheck wages, I found Jane Bryant Quinn's Everyone's Money Book and Andrew Tobias's The Only Investment Guide That You'll Ever Need and never looked back. I'm one of those people who learn better from text (including online) than voice.

I understand and acknowledge OP's daughter's hypersensitivity to mansplaining, which can be maddening, but she needs to get beyond that. My un-asked-for advice to her would be to develop a sardonic internal reaction and a neutral-but-polite external reaction, pick out anything that might be useful, and go on. Also to see the difference between mansplaining and men (or anyone else) explaining something that they know about and that she needs to know, or at least might find useful. It's ridiculous to discount information simply because it comes from someone who doesn't look like you.
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

delamer
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by delamer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:05 pm

The OP did not say that his daughter thinks every piece of information or every explanation provided by an old white guy is mansplaining. Nor did he say that she ignores every piece of information or every explanation provided by an old white guy.

She just found some of the material her dad exposed her to on finance was condescending.

As Lynette said, things have improved. But every woman has experienced mansplaining or its twin brother -- being ignored while by the car salesman who speaks only to your husband.

bayview
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bayview » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:12 pm

Lynette wrote:I won't even start on examples from 50 years ago in the work place about mansplaining. Actually I think that in general people have become more sensitive to and are not so condescending anymore. I'm remodeling my house and recently I was at a Big Box Store and laughing accused an elderly gentleman of not wanting to sell an elderly woman (me) a Chain saw. I've got lots of other examples of that. Tell your daughter there is still some condescension towards women. In certain fields she will still need to prove she is as good - or better than other guys.
delamer wrote:The OP did not say that his daughter thinks every piece of information or every explanation provided by an old white guy is mansplaining. Nor did he say that she ignores every piece of information or every explanation provided by an old white guy.

She just found some of the material her dad exposed her to on finance was condescending.

As Lynette said, things have improved. But every woman has experienced mansplaining or its twin brother -- being ignored while by the car salesman who speaks only to your husband.

Yep. Yep yep yep yep yep.

It's irritating, but it's not the end of the world. It's just something that women learn to deal with. It doesn't mean accepting it; it just means figuring how to work around it. This is why we have muscles in our faces that allow us to roll our eyes.

And it's way, way better than when I was growing up in the 60's. Yikes.
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:36 pm

It's hard sometimes to accept that people don't want your help. Especially when you know that they really really need it. But if she doesn't want your help, then finding women to offer the help on your behalf probably won't work. This may well be as much about parenting as anything else, and her desire to have you quit telling her how to live. In which case, let her live her life, and enjoy her for who she is, and quit trying to "fix" her.

I've mentioned this site to my grown kids, and they have made comments that let me know they've looked. Then we talk about music or gardens or the coming eclipse.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by meaghansketch » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:38 pm

Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by jabberwockOG » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:02 pm

meaghansketch wrote:Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.



What you describe above is not manspaining, that is being a bozo, and bozos of both genders unabashedly spouting foolish ill-informed rubbish are pretty abundant these days.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by KyleAAA » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:03 pm

jabberwockOG wrote:
meaghansketch wrote:Mansplaining is not when a man explains something to you. Mansplaining is when a man explains to you something you already know, quite certain in the knowledge that you must not know whatever it is that's being explained to you. I've been on Bogleheads since 2004, if someone tries to explain what capital gains are or what tax loss harvesting is and doesn't listen to me when I say "I know what that is already", then it veers into mansplaining territory. Once at a rest station of an ultramarathon, some dude walking his dog tried to explain nutrition to me (even though I was eating _for_an ultramarathon, I am very familiar with the principles of nutrition, and I already knew that it wasn't a great idea to eat a ton of peanut butter pretzels on a regular basis.) That's mansplaining.



What you describe above is not manspaining, that is being a bozo, and bozos of both genders spouting foolishness are pretty abundant these days.


:oops:

bigred77
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by bigred77 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:04 pm

Seeing mansplaining debated on Bogleheads is better than I could have ever hoped for :D

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Fallible » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:05 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:Mansplaining - "(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing." "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" (Oxford Dictionary)

My 22 year old daughter/recent college grad is very sensitive to this. So, I've come to realize, are a lot of 20-something women (and older) in the Northeast, where we live. When I show her videos by Paul Merriman or the Bogleheads wiki intro to investing videos my daughter kind of tunes out. Rightly or wrongly, she sees it as middle-aged (or later) white guys mansplaining to young women (even though the videos are not directed to women), and it doesn't cut it with her. I could go into a lot of explanation about why a lot of women feel this way, but all you have to do is pay attention to the business news to understand this. Besides, I'd be mansplaining. ...


To really understand what's happening here, it's important to hear from both sides, especially before going on to generalize. OP, I think you've explained your side well, but it's one side. Her reaction to Merriman, you say, was to "tune out," and even if your perception is correct or even mostly correct, your daughter best knows if that's what she was or was not doing and, most important, why.

Some videos have been suggested here, all good, especially those from Jane Bryant Quinn.
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truenorth418
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by truenorth418 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:20 pm

Jill Schlesinger is also good. Her radio shows are typically uploaded as podcasts (itunes etc) every weekend.

So Money with Farnoosh Tarabi is a good podcast, although her angle is less about investing and more about lifestyle issues around money. It is targeted at young adults.

truenorth418
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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by truenorth418 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:23 pm

Another thought. I listen to Paul Merriman. His podcast is good, sometimes excellent. But he does go into excruciating detail regarding performance of the various asset classes and whatnot. I would not recommend him for beginners.

When I was just starting out I listened to some books on tape by Jane Bryant Quinn. They were a great starting point for me at the time.

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by GerryL » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:34 pm

Bastiat wrote:
KyleAAA wrote:I think most here are misunderstanding the problem with mansplaining. Consider this scenario: a woman has a PhD in a particular subject, let's call it molecular biology. A man who doesn't know anything about this woman, and with no real expertise of his own in the subject (i.e. he does not have a PhD in molecular biology) tries to (incorrectly) explain the subject to the woman. When the women informs the man that she is, in fact, an acknowledged expert in the field the man persists in arguing the subject even though he is provably wrong. This type of thing is EXTREMELY common. Wouldn't that annoy you? It has nothing to do with the gender of the person doing the mansplaining, it's just that 99% of the time that person is a man, hence the term.


The OP's daughter is not a PhD in finance. If that were the issue, she wouldn't be unable to take financial advice from men.

If it were my daughter I'd tell her to grow up.


Sounds like in this case 'mansplaining' is not the issue. It is 'fear of mansplaining.'

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Re: Investing Education and Mansplaining

Post by Thesaints » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:43 pm

Are we sure the OP daughter should care about what Paul Merriman has to say ?
Maybe she does not yet have any investable assets to speak of...

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