How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

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nitro4214
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How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:27 am

I was recently offered a job by a company that I have interviewed with. Everything went well and the people seem professional. They extended me an offer.

When adding the additional compensation and retirement benefits (they match more than my current employer), I would be looking at approximately a 12% increase in salary. The HR person claims that there is a "profit sharing" bonus that is paid to employees at the end of the year. It is currently at 8% of ones salary. He did say that this could eventually change since the company was recently bought out by a larger company.

I'm looking at a 12% increase without the bonus and a 20% increase with the bonus. Should I even be taking the bonus into consideration with it NOT being guaranteed money? There's a possibility they can change it to more of an individual incentive (which he did hint), decrease the number given to employees, or do away with it it altogether.

There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.

Pros
I would no longer be on call. I am currently on call 20% of the time, which is an occasional annoyance, but isn't too bad compared to some jobs.
Holidays and weekends off. I currently work some holidays and weekends but have others off.
It is more of a specialized position (software development) and I would be able to focus more on the work that I am good at as opposed to general IT support.

Cons
It's a very early start time (6:30am) - I will admit I'm not much of a morning person
There would likely be more meetings and micromanagement. My current management team is mostly hands off as long as things get done.

The commute is the same (45 min each way)

The length of the work day would be 30 minutes more with the new job (only because there is an hour lunch instead of a 1/2 hour)

I have been at my current job for over 10 years. It has been stable although I am aware that things can change.

Is this an offer that I should consider, counter offer, or should I just stay put?
Last edited by nitro4214 on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

neveragain
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by neveragain » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:48 am

I've heard the rule of thumb is, don't switch unless you get more than a 10% increase. But it depends, everyone's life situation is different. Also how much does one hate their current job (if they hate their current job it might be worth switching even for no pay increase). Some people with even switch jobs for a better job title or better health insurance/benefits.

Don't ever leave a permanent position for a contract job.
Last edited by neveragain on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jags4186
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Jags4186 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:49 am

I would look more at the projected income growth of the new company. Is there ability to move up that isn't there at your current company? That's what led me to leave my previous job (very secure, but no advancement in sight). I ended up taking about a 10% salary increase with much greater bonus potential and more promising promotion opportunities. My best year at my old company I received a 20% bonus whereas at my new company target bonus is 35% with the ability to get up to 50%.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:56 am

neveragain wrote:I've heard the rule of thumb is, don't switch unless you get more than a 10% increase. But it depends, everyone's life situation is different. Also how much does one hate their current job (if they hate their current job it might be worth switching even for no pay increase). Some people with even switch jobs for a better job title or better health insurance/benefits.

Don't ever leave a permanent position for a contract job.
I would not say that I hate my current job. It has its issues, like any other jobs, but I wouldn't say that I hate it.

Health insurance seems to be similar although there are different plans and I would really have to sit down and compare the two. I don't think there would be more than a $20 difference as far as premiums go.

It is a permanent position. I was told they are looking to eventually grow the department further but of course plans can change.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:00 am

Jags4186 wrote:I would look more at the projected income growth of the new company. Is there ability to move up that isn't there at your current company? That's what led me to leave my previous job (very secure, but no advancement in sight). I ended up taking about a 10% salary increase with much greater bonus potential and more promising promotion opportunities. My best year at my old company I received a 20% bonus whereas at my new company target bonus is 35% with the ability to get up to 50%.
The new company does make a profit as employees receive a "profit sharing" bonus. My current company had some financial turmoil several years back but thinks appear to be looking up

It appears to be a "dead end" job as my current job is. That's not a bad thing as I prefer to be hands on technical than in management. Both are small IT departments and the only way to move up is if the IT manager leaves. I would consider my current job to be relatively secure, although of course that can change down the line. The job at the new company seems as if it will be stable/long term as they are talk about hiring additional employees in the department.

BeneIRA
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by BeneIRA » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:09 am

nitro4214 wrote:
neveragain wrote:I've heard the rule of thumb is, don't switch unless you get more than a 10% increase. But it depends, everyone's life situation is different. Also how much does one hate their current job (if they hate their current job it might be worth switching even for no pay increase). Some people with even switch jobs for a better job title or better health insurance/benefits.

Don't ever leave a permanent position for a contract job.
I would not say that I hate my current job. It has its issues, like any other jobs, but I wouldn't say that I hate it.

Health insurance seems to be similar although there are different plans and I would really have to sit down and compare the two. I don't think there would be more than a $20 difference as far as premiums go.

It is a permanent position. I was told they are looking to eventually grow the department further but of course plans can change.
10% seems to be the benchmark. I wanted over that for myself when I switched jobs. Obligatory question, but have you negotiated the salary at all or is this just their first offer? Perhaps since you have a steady job already, you could push them up to 14-15% of your current salary, especially with the loss of one week's vacation? Having been a part of more than one bigger company buying out the company I was working for, I would recommend you take a long look at the new company. What is their Glassdoor rating? What is their reputation? Because the old company in its current form won't exist. It may be slow, but there will be change. The profit sharing can't be counted on, so I wouldn't even include it in your calculations, especially with a merger. Also, sometimes that requires a certain amount of time with a company. My current company required all employees to work over half the year to be eligible. Something to find out. And no, I would not take the bonus into consideration. With this merger, bonuses could be cut or eliminated. It's an easy cost to cut.

I would definitely counter by bumping up the salary by a little bit. The new company would probably be amenable to going up some in salary, however, before you do this, you need to know if you will accept their counter offer. You are taking a risk, for sure. Whenever there is a merger and you are the acquired company, then the people working there don't really know what to expect. You are clearly interested in leaving your current job because you wouldn't have interviewed or done this deep-level analysis if you didn't think the grass might be greener. The opportunity seems good and a 12% raise (or potentially higher if you negotiate well), is not nothing. I think a fair amount of people would strongly consider a jump for a 12% raise. I know I would. Definitely do some research on this new company, though, and see if they are someone you ultimately want to work for. Best of luck.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:24 am

BeneIRA wrote:10% seems to be the benchmark. I wanted over that for myself when I switched jobs. Obligatory question, but have you negotiated the salary at all or is this just their first offer?
This is their first offer.
BeneIRA wrote:Perhaps since you have a steady job already, you could push them up to 14-15% of your current salary, especially with the loss of one week's vacation?
Would it be unreasonable to ask for an additional week of vacation? It would take me five years to get to where I am at now. Not to mention I would be losing the vacation I planned for later this summer. Not that this is their problem but I was looking forward to it. :)
BeneIRA wrote:Having been a part of more than one bigger company buying out the company I was working for, I would recommend you take a long look at the new company. What is their Glassdoor rating?
It's average. There were some posts made that complained about management and posts about relatives being in management but I think those were written by people on the floor and not in a technical position.
BeneIRA wrote:What is their reputation?
I am not really sure, honestly, since it's a different industry and I don't live in that area. I'm about 45 min away. I didn't know that the company was in that location until I responded to their ad.
BeneIRA wrote:Because the old company in its current form won't exist. It may be slow, but there will be change.
The VP of the branch was at the interview and insisted that they going to be able to continue to run as its own separate entity but who knows.
BeneIRA wrote:The profit sharing can't be counted on, so I wouldn't even include it in your calculations, especially with a merger.

I would definitely counter by bumping up the salary by a little bit. The new company would probably be amenable to going up some in salary, however, before you do this, you need to know if you will accept their counter offer.
Yes I need to be sure. I don't want to counter and then be in the awkward position of backing out.
BeneIRA wrote:You are taking a risk, for sure. Whenever there is a merger and you are the acquired company, then the people working there don't really know what to expect. You are clearly interested in leaving your current job because you wouldn't have interviewed or done this deep-level analysis if you didn't think the grass might be greener.
I started this job search last year when things were rough at the current job. They have since hired more people and things have gotten better, although I still wear more hats than I would care to wear. I have slowed down the job search in recent months. I'd say that this company has been one of the more professional companies that I've interacted with during this process. If I didn't already have a job, I would likely take the job.
BeneIRA wrote:The opportunity seems good and a 12% raise (or potentially higher if you negotiate well), is not nothing. I think a fair amount of people would strongly consider a jump for a 12% raise. I know I would. Definitely do some research on this new company, though, and see if they are someone you ultimately want to work for. Best of luck.
I will have to do some online searches as I don't know anyone who works in that company (or industry).

awval999
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by awval999 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:37 am

I think you're really just working more for the same actual pay.

Old job: 3 Weeks Vacation / 52 Weeks in a year = 5.8% of your pay is vacation
New job: 2 Weeks Vacation / 52 Weeks in a year = 3.8% of your pay is vacation

Right here you lost 2% of your "raise" because you're working an extra week for that pay.

But wait; there's more.

Working 9 hour days instead of 8.5 hour days. I personally think 1 hr lunch breaks are a scam to get you "in the building" for more hours. Heck, I don't know how many lunches I "work through" already at work. Probably at least 50%. And I'm done eating in 15 minutes. Anyway....

Old job: 49 working weeks * 5 days/week * 8.5 = 2083 working hours in a year

New job: 50 working weeks * 5 days/week * 9 = 2250 working hours in a year

Solve for x--->
2083(x) = 2250
x = 1.08 or 8%.

So pretty much, while you are "earning" 12% more in pay (the recruit is trying to tactfully tell you the bonus is going to be eliminated) you are working 10% more to earn that 12% increase.

It's a very minute increase.

Again, this is just a mathematical exercise. And taking or leaving a job is more than math.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:48 am

awval999 wrote:I think you're really just working more for the same actual pay.

Old job: 3 Weeks Vacation / 52 Weeks in a year = 5.8% of your pay is vacation
New job: 2 Weeks Vacation / 52 Weeks in a year = 3.8% of your pay is vacation

Right here you lost 2% of your "raise" because you're working an extra week for that pay.
Yes, time is money!
awval999 wrote:But wait; there's more.

Working 9 hour days instead of 8.5 hour days. I personally think 1 hr lunch breaks are a scam to get you "in the building" for more hours. Heck, I don't know how many lunches I "work through" already at work. Probably at least 50%. And I'm done eating in 15 minutes. Anyway....

Old job: 49 working weeks * 5 days/week * 8.5 = 2083 working hours in a year

New job: 50 working weeks * 5 days/week * 9 = 2250 working hours in a year

Solve for x--->
2083(x) = 2250
x = 1.08 or 8%.
Interesting, that completely slipped my mind. I did not think of factoring in lunch. I would lose 30 minutes of my day. My current management team doesn't monitor whether I'm at lunch for 30 minutes or 45 minutes. I eat at my desk and it does take less than 30 minutes. That extra half hour could very well be considered work. All I can really do in that time is eat or surf the internet.
awval999 wrote:So pretty much, while you are "earning" 12% more in pay (the recruit is trying to tactfully tell you the bonus is going to be eliminated) you are working 10% more to earn that 12% increase.

It's a very minute increase.

Again, this is just a mathematical exercise. And taking or leaving a job is more than math.
That is true although the math is pretty important in this case. Both places have almost the exact same commute, decent co-workers in the department (or at least it seems like it at the new place), and good work environment. My biggest issue with my current job is being interrupted often because of IT support issues, which affects the amount of time I am able to focus on software development projects (my strength and preferred work). I am also not a fan of being on call but it's only 20% of the time now that we are fully staffed (or as fully staffed as we're going to get). Maybe I should go to my current management and try to get these issues rectified while I have this offer on the table.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:52 am

nitro4214 wrote:I was recently offered a job by a company that I have interviewed with. Everything went well and the people seem professional. They extended me an offer.

When adding the additional compensation and retirement benefits (they match more than my current employer), I would be looking at approximately a 12% increase in salary. The HR person claims that there is a "profit sharing" bonus that is paid to employees at the end of the year. It is currently at 8% of ones salary. He did say that this could eventually change since the company was recently bought out by a larger company.

I'm looking at a 12% increase without the bonus and a 20% increase with the bonus. Should I even be taking the bonus into consideration with it NOT being guaranteed money? There's a possibility they can change it to more of an individual incentive (which he did hint), decrease the number given to employees, or do away with it it altogether.

There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.

Pros
I would no longer be on call. I am currently on call 20% of the time, which is an occasional annoyance, but isn't too bad compared to some jobs.
Holidays and weekends off. I currently work some holidays and weekends but have others off.
It is more of a specialized position (software development) and I would be able to focus more on the work that I am good at as opposed to general IT support.How can you focus on work your good at if you are going to be in meetings and micromanaged? Seems like more of your time is going towards being idle while others drone on......

Cons
It's a very early start time (6:30am) - I will admit I'm not much of a morning person
There would likely be more meetings and micromanagement. My current management team is mostly hands off as long as things get done.
Your quality of life is about to take a major nosedive, for this reason alone I would say no. Unless of course you like spending your time in meetings and being micromanage to death by insecure people. Those who micromanage are insecure and there is no fixing that.
The commute is the same (45 min each way)

The length of the work day would be 30 minutes more with the new job (only because there is an hour lunch instead of a 1/2 hour)150 minutes a week is 2.5 hours more x 50 weeks is 150 hours or 3.13 weeks of additional work.

I have been at my current job for over 10 years. It has been stable although I am aware that things can change.Things can change at new companies too. Don't be fooled into thinking the grass is greener, there are trade-offs in every job.

Is this an offer that I should consider, counter offer, or should I just stay put?
Stay put and look elsewhere. You are being conned into thinking you are receiving an increase, since poster awal already went through the math I'll leave out the calculations. Look at the offer by it's merits - reduced quality of life, by your own admittance you hate early morning hours, you don't like micromanagement, you will be working longer hours for the same pay, new people, unknown culture. Why? unless you know you current job is going to be eliminated or the sign is clear the company is going under a slow death.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:05 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Stay put and look elsewhere. You are being conned into thinking you are receiving an increase, since poster awal already went through the math I'll leave out the calculations.


I am already paid below market. They know this and are offering me another below market salary.

I will say that they have been among the "nicest" and "professional" people I have dealt with on this job search. They have been very respectful toward me. Of course that can change.
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Look at the offer by it's merits - reduced quality of life, by your own admittance you hate early morning hours, you don't like micromanagement, you will be working longer hours for the same pay, new people, unknown culture. Why? unless you know you current job is going to be eliminated or the sign is clear the company is going under a slow death.
All great points. If I didn't already have a job, I would definitely accept. My current job has its issues but is tolerable. Although anything can happen, I don't see signs of my current job being eliminated in the near future. Nor do I have any problems with my bosses or co-workers in the department. They are respectful toward me and vice versa. We were extremely short-staffed for a time, which really tested my patience, but that seems to be improving as new employees were finally hired and are getting better at their jobs.

With all taken into consideration, it does seem like an awfully small increase in exchange for the risk I would be taking.

That's not to say I don't have issues with the current job. My responsibilities have expanded in recent years (and not really in a positive way). I'm spending more time dealing with hardware issues (i.e. printers) when I am more of a software guy and it's difficult to find time to focus on my software projects with all of the interruptions. I can tolerate the on call thing since it is a rotation. There was talk about adding 2 1/2 -3 hours to my schedule (every 5 weeks or so) to do some required maintenance during off hours (even on days off). Everyone would rotate. I don't care to take on this additional work without additional compensation. Those are the main reasons I am dissatisfied.

Jags4186
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Jags4186 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:14 am

Another option to consider is simply take the pay increase stick it out for a year and start looking again. Many people who stay at the same job for 10 years are underpaid because big increases generally only happen when you change companies or get promoted. Since you don't look like you're getting promoted at your current job the only way to make more money is to leave.

You could always go back to your current employer and ask for a counter offer.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:17 am

nitro4214 wrote:
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Stay put and look elsewhere. You are being conned into thinking you are receiving an increase, since poster awal already went through the math I'll leave out the calculations.


I am already paid below market. They know this and are offering me another below market salary.

I will say that they have been among the "nicest" and "professional" people I have dealt with on this job search. They have been very respectful toward me. Of course that can change.
Do you know anyone who works there now? What do they say? Do you know if there is an industry knowledge out there on GlassDoor or other job posting websites that might describe culture? HR represents management - keep an open mind, things may not always be as they appear. I really do hope it's Lake Wobegon.
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Look at the offer by it's merits - reduced quality of life, by your own admittance you hate early morning hours, you don't like micromanagement, you will be working longer hours for the same pay, new people, unknown culture. Why? unless you know you current job is going to be eliminated or the sign is clear the company is going under a slow death.
All great points. If I didn't already have a job, I would definitely accept. My current job has its issues but is tolerable. Although anything can happen, I don't see signs of my current job being eliminated in the near future. Nor do I have any problems with my bosses or co-workers in the department. They are respectful toward me and vice versa. We were extremely short-staffed for a time, which really tested my patience, but that seems to be improving as new employees were finally hired and are getting better at their jobs.

With all taken into consideration, it does seem like an awfully small increase in exchange for the risk I would be taking.
Perhaps in this job environment 10% is acceptable, but I'm thinking to take a big great leap into the unknown an increase of 15%+
is not out of line, a 10% increase is a sign of cheapness. The extra work hours? - you can line that up with you having to work on weekends/holidays 20% of the time - either way, this new employer isn't giving you anything, they are "taking" in an obvious but covert manner. It's not like HR/management is saying with a smile"listen, the deal is you work 150 hours more per year, lose a week of vacation, have zero seniority, go to more meetings, we believe in micromanagement, we are thinking about growing and you get 10% more in your weekly check. Welcome to Lake Wobegon. :oops: Could you imagine posting such an ad on indeed or elsewhere? How many applications do you believe they would receive for such an opportunity for advancement?
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:20 am

Jags4186 wrote:Another option to consider is simply take the pay increase stick it out for a year and start looking again. Many people who stay at the same job for 10 years are underpaid because big increases generally only happen when you change companies or get promoted. Since you don't look like you're getting promoted at your current job the only way to make more money is to leave.

You could always go back to your current employer and ask for a counter offer.
The risk is current employer says "we can't match it, sorry to see you go (which is another word for "there's the door" or the current employer may say we can not match it but we will hope you stay, you stay, but in the back of their minds is "this guy is going to leave at any time, don't give him anything new, let him do more of the working during holidays, etc.", you never know how these approaches to management may go.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:24 am

Jags4186 wrote:Another option to consider is simply take the pay increase stick it out for a year and start looking again. Many people who stay at the same job for 10 years are underpaid because big increases generally only happen when you change companies or get promoted. Since you don't look like you're getting promoted at your current job the only way to make more money is to leave.
One big advantage with my current job is that I can get the occasional weekday or morning off so I am able to interview without raising eyebrows. If I move to this place, it could be a little more challenging to go on interviews.

You are definitely right about the pay raises. Three percentage is average and there were some years (due to economics) where I did not get one at all!
Jags4186 wrote:You could always go back to your current employer and ask for a counter offer.
True but is it ever a good idea to accept a counter offer? I have heard that it's not a good idea as many companies will mark you as disloyal, begin phasing you out, and you end up first on the lay off list.

Would it be out of line to go to my boss and say "I wasn't actively looking but a former co-worker contacted me out of the blue and is offering me this job. Can you address these issues with my current job?"

newbie_Mo
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by newbie_Mo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:34 am

You mentioned the new company just just bought out and things could change. Restructuring may happen soon after you move to the new company.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:34 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Perhaps in this job environment 10% is acceptable, but I'm thinking to take a big great leap into the unknown an increase of 15%+
is not out of line, a 10% increase is a sign of cheapness.


I originally had my sights set on 15% at the very least or 20%.

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:The extra work hours? - you can line that up with you having to work on weekends/holidays 20% of the time
- either way, this new employer isn't giving you anything, they are "taking" in an obvious but covert manner. It's not like HR/management is saying with a smile"listen, the deal is you work 150 hours more per year, lose a week of vacation, have zero seniority, go to more meetings, we believe in micromanagement, we are thinking about growing and you get 10% more in your weekly check. Welcome to Lake Wobegon. :oops: Could you imagine posting such an ad on indeed or elsewhere? How many applications do you believe they would receive for such an opportunity for advancement?
All great points. And yes I would also lose seniority. Not that it's worth a lot but it's something. I know most of the management at work and they most of them seem to like me. If I jump ship, there is the possibility of inadvertently upsetting a manager who is related to someone higher up, who causes problems. The facility is smaller than the one I work at now, with significantly less employees (20% compared to the current place).

ddurrett896
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by ddurrett896 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:36 am

nitro4214 wrote:
There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.
You can negotiate this.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:42 am

newbie_Mo wrote:You mentioned the new company just just bought out and things could change. Restructuring may happen soon after you move to the new company.
The VP sat in at my last interview and stated that that there are no major changes planned to ease those concerns. What he says and what the parent company decides to do can be two different stories...although they seem pretty confident that they will be allowed to continue to operate as their own entity (as their locations are introducing a product to the enterprise that they did not previously sell).

With that being said, what if the parent company decides to centralize programming down the line so that it's all done overseas (where corp HQ is located)? That is a question I have pondered. My current company has centralized operations but there is still a demand for programming at the local branch.

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:43 am

ddurrett896 wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:
There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.
You can negotiate this.
Yes I can negotiate to add a week of vacation but would it send the wrong message to take a new job and then take a vacation a month later?

curmudgeon
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by curmudgeon » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:07 pm

nitro4214 wrote:
ddurrett896 wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:
There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.
You can negotiate this.
Yes I can negotiate to add a week of vacation but would it send the wrong message to take a new job and then take a vacation a month later?
I have negotiated this before. It's not unusual for new hires to have previous plans that need to be taken into consideration. I think one time I negotiated 3 weeks (unpaid) leave to be taken in the first 6 months. It helps if your previous company pays out unused vacation time (varies by state and company).

Jags4186
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Jags4186 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:27 pm

nitro4214 wrote:
True but is it ever a good idea to accept a counter offer? I have heard that it's not a good idea as many companies will mark you as disloyal, begin phasing you out, and you end up first on the lay off list.

Would it be out of line to go to my boss and say "I wasn't actively looking but a former co-worker contacted me out of the blue and is offering me this job. Can you address these issues with my current job?"
It depends on the company and your relationship. At my prior job I was underpaid market and underpaid within the people at my level. I started looking, found a job I wasn't particularly keen on but at a 30% increase which would have put me middling for my department at my current employer.

I went to them and said "look I wasn't really looking but I got an offer for a 100% lateral move at X. I really don't want to leave but at this differential it would be irresponsible to my family to not take the job." They matched the offer because I think reality set in that to replace me they'd have to pay that anyway and get someone green. I still ended up leaving 2 years later for the further increase above.

So I think you need to figure out--does your company pay less than industry? Are you just paid less? For me I wasn't asking for anything that they weren't giving to everyone at my level. But if your increase puts you way above others with your title then they might tell you to walk.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by ddurrett896 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:40 pm

nitro4214 wrote: would it send the wrong message to take a new job and then take a vacation a month later?
No! When I took my current job I needed a few days off for a wedding the next month. My vacation didn't start accruing for 3 months and I asked for it unpaid. Since in salaried, my boss couldn't really adjust so he said just make up the time whenever.

You are human, they are human - if they don't understand, honestly re-considering taking the job!

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:05 pm

awval999 wrote:I think you're really just working more for the same actual pay.

Old job: 3 Weeks Vacation / 52 Weeks in a year = 5.8% of your pay is vacation
New job: 2 Weeks Vacation / 52 Weeks in a year = 3.8% of your pay is vacation

Right here you lost 2% of your "raise" because you're working an extra week for that pay.

But wait; there's more.

Working 9 hour days instead of 8.5 hour days. I personally think 1 hr lunch breaks are a scam to get you "in the building" for more hours. Heck, I don't know how many lunches I "work through" already at work. Probably at least 50%. And I'm done eating in 15 minutes. Anyway....

Old job: 49 working weeks * 5 days/week * 8.5 = 2083 working hours in a year

New job: 50 working weeks * 5 days/week * 9 = 2250 working hours in a year

Solve for x--->
2083(x) = 2250
x = 1.08 or 8%.

So pretty much, while you are "earning" 12% more in pay (the recruit is trying to tactfully tell you the bonus is going to be eliminated) you are working 10% more to earn that 12% increase.

It's a very minute increase.

Again, this is just a mathematical exercise. And taking or leaving a job is more than math.
Based on these numbers, I calculated my new hourly rate. It is a measly 70 cents over what I am making now.

They would have to pay me an additional 10k over what they offered to get me at a 15% increase in hourly pay. That amount plus the "bonus" would get me to 20%. It is a significant difference.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:09 pm

curmudgeon wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:
ddurrett896 wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:
There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.
You can negotiate this.
Yes I can negotiate to add a week of vacation but would it send the wrong message to take a new job and then take a vacation a month later?
I have negotiated this before. It's not unusual for new hires to have previous plans that need to be taken into consideration. I think one time I negotiated 3 weeks (unpaid) leave to be taken in the first 6 months. It helps if your previous company pays out unused vacation time (varies by state and company).
I would be ok with it being unpaid. I believe I would be compensated for unused vacation time.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:13 pm

Jags4186 wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:
True but is it ever a good idea to accept a counter offer? I have heard that it's not a good idea as many companies will mark you as disloyal, begin phasing you out, and you end up first on the lay off list.

Would it be out of line to go to my boss and say "I wasn't actively looking but a former co-worker contacted me out of the blue and is offering me this job. Can you address these issues with my current job?"
It depends on the company and your relationship. At my prior job I was underpaid market and underpaid within the people at my level. I started looking, found a job I wasn't particularly keen on but at a 30% increase which would have put me middling for my department at my current employer.

I went to them and said "look I wasn't really looking but I got an offer for a 100% lateral move at X. I really don't want to leave but at this differential it would be irresponsible to my family to not take the job." They matched the offer because I think reality set in that to replace me they'd have to pay that anyway and get someone green. I still ended up leaving 2 years later for the further increase above.

So I think you need to figure out--does your company pay less than industry? Are you just paid less? For me I wasn't asking for anything that they weren't giving to everyone at my level. But if your increase puts you way above others with your title then they might tell you to walk.
Interesting story.
I believe I am underpaid for my skillset. I work for non-tech company so they may not see it that way.

Several years ago, I had an old boss leave and he offered me a job from another company. I told my then boss and asked him if he could match what the old boss was offering. He claimed he went to upper management (not sure if he did) and then said no. If I were leaving, would they have countered? Hard to tell but I think it would be awkward working there after that.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: It's a very early start time (6:30am) - I will admit I'm not much of a morning person My current management teamnd das things get done.
Your quality of life is about to take a major nosedive, for this reason alone I would say no. Unless of course you like spending your time in meetings and being micromanage to death by insecure people. Those who micromanage are insecure and there is no fixing that..
Sorry missed your comments in blue
But this is a big one. I need to do a gut check and ask myself if I want to work those hours. There was a time I did not have a choice and do not recall enjoying it. Winter weather could be an issue especially if they are sensitive about being late (another unknown)

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:25 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Do you know anyone who works there now? What do they say? Do you know if there is an industry knowledge out there on GlassDoor or other job posting websites that might describe culture? HR represents management - keep an open mind, things may not always be as they appear. I really do hope it's Lake Wobegon.
I do not. There are a few reviews on Glassdoor. They were made by hourly workers in the floor who bashed management for making it unecessarily stressful. A couple posts mentioned something about people in the same family being in management.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by TIAX » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:38 pm

nitro4214 wrote: ...
I would be looking at approximately a 12% increase in salary.

There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.
...
Cons
It's a very early start time (6:30am) - I will admit I'm not much of a morning person
There would likely be more meetings and micromanagement. My current management team is mostly hands off as long as things get done.
...
The commute is the same (45 min each way)
...
Is this an offer that I should consider, counter offer, or should I just stay put?
Those are some pretty big cons and, unless you really need the money, I wouldn't sacrifice my happiness for a 12% raise (some of which, like the 401(k) match, could go down without much notice).

You'll need to wake up at 5 a.m.; that will wear you out, especially if you're not a morning person. Losing 1/3 of your vacation is huge. Perhaps most importantly, the increased micromanagement would be a deal-breaker for me, especially once you're used to a certain level of autonomy.

I would recommend either staying put or giving a very high counteroffer that would make the job tolerable (perhaps a 50% raise over your current salary).

sambb
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by sambb » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:41 pm

I would change jobs if the new job adds to satisfaction in life/happiness etc. somehow. It is more than money. There are several intangibles that may be worth more or less than the financial reasons.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:57 pm

TIAX wrote:Those are some pretty big cons and, unless you really need the money, I wouldn't sacrifice my happiness for a 12% raise (some of which, like the 401(k) match, could go down without much notice).


I can't say I really need the money.
TIAX wrote:You'll need to wake up at 5 a.m.; that will wear you out, especially if you're not a morning person. Losing 1/3 of your vacation is huge. Perhaps most importantly, the increased micromanagement would be a deal-breaker for me, especially once you're used to a certain level of autonomy.

I would recommend either staying put or giving a very high counteroffer that would make the job tolerable (perhaps a 50% raise over your current salary).
There may not as much micromanaging as I think but they did say there is a mandatory meeting (or two) a week. 50%? I'm sure they'd balk but yeah it would take a significantly higher amount than what they are offering in order to get me to jump. I'm already working below market, and instead of offering me what I am worth, it feels as though they are taking the salary history that I gave them and using it against me.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by TIAX » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:06 pm

nitro4214 wrote:
TIAX wrote:Those are some pretty big cons and, unless you really need the money, I wouldn't sacrifice my happiness for a 12% raise (some of which, like the 401(k) match, could go down without much notice).


I can't say I really need the money.
TIAX wrote:You'll need to wake up at 5 a.m.; that will wear you out, especially if you're not a morning person. Losing 1/3 of your vacation is huge. Perhaps most importantly, the increased micromanagement would be a deal-breaker for me, especially once you're used to a certain level of autonomy.

I would recommend either staying put or giving a very high counteroffer that would make the job tolerable (perhaps a 50% raise over your current salary).
There may not as much micromanaging as I think but they did say there is a mandatory meeting (or two) a week. 50%?
I suppose 1-2 meetings a week isn't terrible (depending on the length of the meetings). In my experience, the number of meetings tends to creep up.
nitro4214 wrote: I'm sure they'd balk but yeah it would take a significantly higher amount than what they are offering in order to get me to jump. I'm already working below market, and instead of offering me what I am worth, it feels as though they are taking the salary history that I gave them and using it against me.
I'm sure they would but you don't really want this job. If you go the counteroffer route, I would recommend doing so in person and going through the market rates with them. Also, don't be afraid to negotiate the number of vacation days and start time as well (unless there's some very good business reason you need to be there at 6:30 (which I doubt, since you mentioned you were a developer)). Including 3 weeks vacation as part of your counteroffer is completely reasonable considering it's what you have now.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:13 pm

TIAX wrote:I'm sure they would but you don't really want this job. If you go the counteroffer route, I would recommend doing so in person and going through the market rates with them. Also, don't be afraid to negotiate the number of vacation days and start time (unless there's some very good business reason you need to be there at 6:30 (which I doubt, since you mentioned you were a developer)). Including 3 weeks vacation as part of your counteroffer is completely reasonable considering it's what you have now.
I don't think I could justify a 50% increase. Maybe 20-30% max, anything beyond would likely get laughed out of the building. I would definitely not take a cut on vacation. Start time is actually 7:30 but there is a time zone difference and I am an hour behind. Seems that all of the office people work those hours (7:30-4:30), or at least the ones I've dealt with.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by TIAX » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:21 pm

nitro4214 wrote:
TIAX wrote:I'm sure they would but you don't really want this job. If you go the counteroffer route, I would recommend doing so in person and going through the market rates with them. Also, don't be afraid to negotiate the number of vacation days and start time (unless there's some very good business reason you need to be there at 6:30 (which I doubt, since you mentioned you were a developer)). Including 3 weeks vacation as part of your counteroffer is completely reasonable considering it's what you have now.
I don't think I could justify a 50% increase. Maybe 20-30% max, anything beyond would likely get laughed out of the building. I would definitely not take a cut on vacation. Start time is actually 7:30 but there is a time zone difference and I am an hour behind. Seems that all of the office people work those hours (7:30-4:30), or at least the ones I've dealt with.
What range raise would bring you up to market?

I'd say it's not worth it at 20%, possibly worth it at 30% with 3 weeks vacation (but I'd probably use the job as a stepping stone and start looking at my exit options quickly). You'd be surprised how willing some employers are to negotiate on non-compensation items such as start time, work from home, etc.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:25 pm

TIAX wrote:What range raise would bring you up to market?
I'd say probably 20%
TIAX wrote:I'd say it's not worth it at 20%, possibly worth it at 30% with 3 weeks vacation (but I'd probably use the job as a stepping stone and start looking at my exit options quickly). You'd be surprised how willing some employers are to negotiate on non-compensation items such as start time, work from home, etc.
Those percentages sound about right. So I ask 50% (which sounds ridiculous but so is their current offer) and they perhaps meet me in the middle. I guess it's worth a try to negotiate start time. The worst they can do is say no.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by TIAX » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:41 pm

nitro4214 wrote:
TIAX wrote:What range raise would bring you up to market?
I'd say probably 20%
TIAX wrote:I'd say it's not worth it at 20%, possibly worth it at 30% with 3 weeks vacation (but I'd probably use the job as a stepping stone and start looking at my exit options quickly). You'd be surprised how willing some employers are to negotiate on non-compensation items such as start time, work from home, etc.
Those percentages sound about right. So I ask 50% (which sounds ridiculous but so is their current offer) and they perhaps meet me in the middle. I guess it's worth a try to negotiate start time. The worst they can do is say no.
Sounds like a plan. Most likely outcome is a rejection without a counteroffer but that's ok. Good luck and do update us!

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by munemaker » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:51 pm

Two points:
1) I don't think there is a rule of thumb on how much of an increase to expect when changing jobs. It depends on whether you are fairly compensated in your present position, or if you are going to a different size of company and in what industry, and how bad they want you. Sometimes people change jobs at lower salary just to move from a stressful situation to a more enjoyable one. There's a lot more to a job than money.

2) You can almost always negotiate vacation time to match your existing vacation time. It does not cost the company anything. I have been on both sides of the desk on that, and I can see it seems to be universally true from my experience.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by sschoe2 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:21 pm

If I could just get an equivalent job in terms of hour, salary, and benefits in another state I would go for it. I can't stand Illinois. Unfortunately that is unlikely so I am staying put for now and planning the get the heck out when I retire.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by pasadena » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:22 pm

If this is their first offer, then they are most probably expecting you to counter. Now, what you want to negotiate on is up to you, but whatever you do, know exactly what you're willing to accept or not.

- Vacations : in some companies, it's really easy to negotiate an additional week. In others it's virtually impossible. But one week less does reduce your total compensation increase. Calculate your current daily comp and the new one, based on number of days worked in a year.

- This year's vacation : I have successfully negotiated this a couple of times (no tin the US but I don't see why it would be different). Tell them you have already planned and paid for it, and do not wish to cancel it (at a high cost). They may allow you to take it anyway - maybe with an additional exceptional week, or one unpaid week.

- 401(k) : they match more. But how long until you can start contributing ? If you have to wait a year, that's a lot of money lost. How long until you're vested in the company match ?

- Early start : 6:30am is tough, especially when you have a 45 minutes commute. How tough depends on the person. What I can tell you, however, is that you get used to it. I was never (ever) a morning person, and was one of these people who start late and work until 7:30pm, until I got my current job, where we start at 7am. I got used to it after a while and I'm now pretty much a morning person. I also very much enjoy leaving work at 4pm. That said I never lived more than 15-20 minutes away. I know it's harder on my colleagues who live farther away, but your 45 minutes might get down to 30 minutes since you'll avoid rush hour.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Palatineman » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:48 am

Never ever reveal your current salary when negotiating a new job offer. Research the market and ask what their compensation range is (Salary + Target Bonus).

If they refuse to offer a target range and still insist on knowing how much you are currently making, walk away. Employers who keep playing these silly games to get someone cheap are behind the times and don't deserve quality candidates.

I am definitely not a morning person and in my past life I have worked IT jobs which required you to be in early meetings and still be on call at 2 am, with terrible micro-management that did not appreciate all of the efforts and ingenuity to enhance and keep the systems running.

I was also miserable, gained 50 pounds, stressed, developed Type II Diabetes.

I have been in my current job for the past 7 years (4 as a contractor and 3 as an FTE) - complete 180 turn - great hands-off trusting management. I have my own schedule and have gotten great reviews, raises, bonuses and increasing stock options every year for the past 3 years. I have transitioned a while back from a Developer to an IT Program/Project Manager, so that might make a difference for the on-call part.

I am now my ideal weight, have time for a healthy work-life balance. The only thing challenging is keeping my disease under control, which is mostly genetic.

IMHO, there is a night and day difference related to your health and well-being when your job requirements have extreme variations from your true nature (not being a morning person, dislike being micromanaged).

If I was in your shoes, I would not even entertain the new offer any longer, stay put and keep looking for a position that aligns more with your lifestyle and compensation expectations.

The advantage you currently have is that you already have a job and look more attractive to potential employers.

Best of luck!

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Jackson12 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:41 am

nitro4214 wrote:I was recently offered a job by a company that I have interviewed with. Everything went well and the people seem professional. They extended me an offer.

When adding the additional compensation and retirement benefits (they match more than my current employer), I would be looking at approximately a 12% increase in salary. The HR person claims that there is a "profit sharing" bonus that is paid to employees at the end of the year. It is currently at 8% of ones salary. He did say that this could eventually change since the company was recently bought out by a larger company.

I'm looking at a 12% increase without the bonus and a 20% increase with the bonus. Should I even be taking the bonus into consideration with it NOT being guaranteed money? There's a possibility they can change it to more of an individual incentive (which he did hint), decrease the number given to employees, or do away with it it altogether.

There is also one LESS week vacation. I currently have three weeks per year and they offer two. I would be losing my summer vacation that I planned later this summer.

Pros
I would no longer be on call. I am currently on call 20% of the time, which is an occasional annoyance, but isn't too bad compared to some jobs.
Holidays and weekends off. I currently work some holidays and weekends but have others off.
It is more of a specialized position (software development) and I would be able to focus more on the work that I am good at as opposed to general IT support.

Cons
It's a very early start time (6:30am) - I will admit I'm not much of a morning person
There would likely be more meetings and micromanagement. My current management team is mostly hands off as long as things get done.

The commute is the same (45 min each way)

The length of the work day would be 30 minutes more with the new job (only because there is an hour lunch instead of a 1/2 hour)

I have been at my current job for over 10 years. It has been stable although I am aware that things can change.

Is this an offer that I should consider, counter offer, or should I just stay put?
How do the overall benefits compare...health insurance , retirement plans, etc? You note a larger match for retirement benefits but what retirement options, what choice of investment options, are offered? What are the fees? What are the performance records for the options ?

If the information mentioned isn't relevant to the OP's situation, maybe it is food for thought for others reading this thread.

When my spouse took his current job, the salary increase was modest and he almost didn't go in for an interview. We were young. A wiser friend suggested we at least see if benefits would be discussed, along with salary.

They were. It turns out that the generous benefits more than made up for the modest salary increase. We ran the numbers to calculate the financial benefits ( particularly money freed for savings). I've continued to run the numbersand the results have been gratifying.

In our case, the new employer offered an excellent health insurance plan ( pre-tax premiums plus an employer contribution ), significant tuition assistance for dependents , a good retirement plan ( pre- tax contributions) with low fees and a good choice of options ( plus an above average employer match).

Based on this, I think true financial value of a salary " increase" depends on the combination of employer benefits and salary. With the right benefits, a salary raise may be higher than it may at first appear.
Last edited by Jackson12 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by dcabler » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:45 am

Depends on where you are in your career. I'm in the semiconductor world and have been a Sr. Manager/Director now for about 15 years across 5 companies and about to be a 6th one. My salary has been in a fairly narrow range across that entire time - meaning I've plateaued. :D But it's long been more than I could spend and bonuses, ESPP, stock options/RSU's all go to savings at this point...

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Geneyus » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:03 am

Years ago, I interviewed for a few jobs that paid 15% more, but now that I understand the entire financial/workplace picture better, I wouldn't leave for less than a 40% increase in pay. Even then, I would be pretty picky.

I spend most of my day hanging out, doing what I want to do. I get about 4-6 weeks off per year, a pension, and my health care is the best my doctor has ever seen. Quality of life, time off, a 15 minute commute, good benefits, and other factors are just as important as salary to me. I can't imagine working somewhere that requires me to sit down at a desk for 8 hours a day with deadlines and work on top of work, no matter what the salary is. Half my day is spent socializing, and "good interpersonal skills" was the only part in bold in my job description.
My wife spends her entire work day doing paperwork, and she comes home talking about what was leftover for tomorrow. Luckily, she's a very easy-going person with a positive attitude.
"Stay the course" | http://tenfactorialrocks.com/the-dog-years-of-investing/

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:17 am

TIAX wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:
TIAX wrote:What range raise would bring you up to market?
I'd say probably 20%
TIAX wrote:I'd say it's not worth it at 20%, possibly worth it at 30% with 3 weeks vacation (but I'd probably use the job as a stepping stone and start looking at my exit options quickly). You'd be surprised how willing some employers are to negotiate on non-compensation items such as start time, work from home, etc.
Those percentages sound about right. So I ask 50% (which sounds ridiculous but so is their current offer) and they perhaps meet me in the middle. I guess it's worth a try to negotiate start time. The worst they can do is say no.
Sounds like a plan. Most likely outcome is a rejection without a counteroffer but that's ok. Good luck and do update us!
Thanks and will do

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:19 am

munemaker wrote:Two points:
1) I don't think there is a rule of thumb on how much of an increase to expect when changing jobs. It depends on whether you are fairly compensated in your present position, or if you are going to a different size of company and in what industry, and how bad they want you. Sometimes people change jobs at lower salary just to move from a stressful situation to a more enjoyable one. There's a lot more to a job than money.

2) You can almost always negotiate vacation time to match your existing vacation time. It does not cost the company anything. I have been on both sides of the desk on that, and I can see it seems to be universally true from my experience.
I'd say that I am being paid about 15-20% below market. It is not super stressful though.

I would definitely not jump ship if I have to take a hit on vacation.

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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:25 am

pasadena wrote:This year's vacation : I have successfully negotiated this a couple of times (no tin the US but I don't see why it would be different). Tell them you have already planned and paid for it, and do not wish to cancel it (at a high cost). They may allow you to take it anyway - maybe with an additional exceptional week, or one unpaid week.
That is good to know as I am not willing to give up my current vacation, even if the week is unpaid. I have enough unused vacation time to more than make up for it.
pasadena wrote:- 401(k) : they match more. But how long until you can start contributing ? If you have to wait a year, that's a lot of money lost. How long until you're vested in the company match ?
It's 90 days after date of hire and the company match begins after that.
pasadena wrote:- Early start : 6:30am is tough, especially when you have a 45 minutes commute. How tough depends on the person. What I can tell you, however, is that you get used to it. I was never (ever) a morning person, and was one of these people who start late and work until 7:30pm, until I got my current job, where we start at 7am. I got used to it after a while and I'm now pretty much a morning person. I also very much enjoy leaving work at 4pm. That said I never lived more than 15-20 minutes away. I know it's harder on my colleagues who live farther away, but your 45 minutes might get down to 30 minutes since you'll avoid rush hour.
The 45 minutes is on a good (or average) day. The company is in a sparsely populated area so I do not anticipate there being a whole lot of traffic. The commute is mostly two lane highway with a trip through town (my current commute is almost all interstate). One big concern is the weather. During snow days, may current commute can take 50% longer or even double. That's on an interstate which they usually do a good job of plowing. Not sure the same care is given to two lane highways. Plus I could possibly have to wake up even earlier (an hour plus?) to clear the drive way and make up for the longer commute if it's bad. I am not sure what their attendance policy is as far as being late goes, another thing to look into I guess.

nitro4214
Posts: 317
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:35 am

Palatineman wrote:Never ever reveal your current salary when negotiating a new job offer. Research the market and ask what their compensation range is (Salary + Target Bonus).
They caught me off guard on the first interview and then asked for it again when I filled out the application. It was a mistake but I didn't have a "slick" way to avoid giving them that information. Of course, now they are using this information against me.
Palatineman wrote:If they refuse to offer a target range and still insist on knowing how much you are currently making, walk away. Employers who keep playing these silly games to get someone cheap are behind the times and don't deserve quality candidates.
I need to keep this in mind in the future.
Palatineman wrote:I am definitely not a morning person and in my past life I have worked IT jobs which required you to be in early meetings and still be on call at 2 am, with terrible micro-management that did not appreciate all of the efforts and ingenuity to enhance and keep the systems running.

I was also miserable, gained 50 pounds, stressed, developed Type II Diabetes.

I have been in my current job for the past 7 years (4 as a contractor and 3 as an FTE) - complete 180 turn - great hands-off trusting management. I have my own schedule and have gotten great reviews, raises, bonuses and increasing stock options every year for the past 3 years. I have transitioned a while back from a Developer to an IT Program/Project Manager, so that might make a difference for the on-call part.
Glad you were able to find a better position. I am on call 20% of the time, which is not too bad, although I would prefer to be 0% of the time. My management is mostly hands off and the schedule is not bad despite it being non-traditional. My compensation increases haven't been all that great in recent years (usually 3% but there were a couple years with no raise given that the company was in bad financial shape at the time).
Palatineman wrote:IMHO, there is a night and day difference related to your health and well-being when your job requirements have extreme variations from your true nature (not being a morning person, dislike being micromanaged).
Good point. I think I am undervaluing this.
Palatineman wrote:If I was in your shoes, I would not even entertain the new offer any longer, stay put and keep looking for a position that aligns more with your lifestyle and compensation expectations.
I figured the work hours would be more traditional. They told me 8-5 at first but then after the offer (and I figured maybe they could change it to 9-6), I was told 7:30-4:30 (their time which is 6:30-3:30 my time). I have thought about asking them if the hours could be changed, let's say 8-4:30 my time with a 30 minute instead of a 60 minute lunch. However, if these are standard company hours, even if they were to allow it, I wonder if it wouldn't build resentment with co-workers.
Palatineman wrote:Best of luck!
Thanks!

nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:43 am

Jackson12 wrote:How do the overall benefits compare...health insurance , retirement plans, etc? You note a larger match for retirement benefits but what retirement options, what choice of investment options, are offered? What are the fees? What are the performance records for the options ?
The health insurance appears to be similar. It's a bit confusing with a lot of details and I haven't compared them closely but the monthly premiums look to be a $20-30 difference at most. Their 401K match is better than the current company, they would match approx 2k over my current employers who has a very low # they match.
Jackson12 wrote:In our case, the new employer offered an excellent health insurance plan ( pre-tax premiums plus an employer contribution ), significant tuition assistance for dependents , a good retirement plan ( pre- tax contributions) with low fees and a good choice of options ( plus an above average employer match).

Based on this, I think true financial value of a salary " increase" depends on the combination of employer benefits and salary. With the right benefits, a salary raise may be higher than it may at first appear.
Other than the skimpy 401k match, the benefits at my current employer are pretty good.

NYCguy
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by NYCguy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:46 am

For me it has always come down to three factors in the following order of priority:

1. Job satisfaction/happiness

2. Room for substantial income growth within my field

3. Competitive compensation today

If I only had 1, I would be actively looking for a new job.

If I had 1 and 3, I would be passively looking for a new job and thinking about how to improve my long-term earnings prospects.

If I have 1 and 2, it would take north of a 20% increase and a belief that I will find 1 and 2 at the new job for me to make a change. To stay in my current job in that scenario I would need to understand why my substantial growth has not occurred and when it is likely to occur.

If you have 2 and 3, it helps when your job satisfaction or happiness on the job wanes. We all sometimes have to slog through tough times but long-term I think you need some level of job satisfaction and happiness.

Today I am fortunate to have all three and I regularly turn down offers in excess of 20% and six figures of additional income.

It is taken me 25 years to get to this position but the strategy above has served me well. I can't stress enough the importance of finding and working with a great organization. It may be the single biggest factor to success.
If your out-go is greater than your income, your upkeep will be your DOWNFALL.

nitro4214
Posts: 317
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:49 am

Geneyus wrote:Years ago, I interviewed for a few jobs that paid 15% more, but now that I understand the entire financial/workplace picture better, I wouldn't leave for less than a 40% increase in pay. Even then, I would be pretty picky.

I spend most of my day hanging out, doing what I want to do. I get about 4-6 weeks off per year, a pension, and my health care is the best my doctor has ever seen. Quality of life, time off, a 15 minute commute, good benefits, and other factors are just as important as salary to me. I can't imagine working somewhere that requires me to sit down at a desk for 8 hours a day with deadlines and work on top of work, no matter what the salary is. Half my day is spent socializing, and "good interpersonal skills" was the only part in bold in my job description.
My wife spends her entire work day doing paperwork, and she comes home talking about what was leftover for tomorrow. Luckily, she's a very easy-going person with a positive attitude.
This is similar to my current job (except there is no pension). I get 6 weeks between vacation and holidays), which I would hate to throw away.

My job is more of a support job so I can spend more time walking around and socializing if I want and nobody would care. There are usually no deadlines (at least as far as software projects go) because they know my job is primarily support and the time I am able to spend on projects can vary. At the new place, I would be desk bound (which sounds like something I want so I have more time to focus without interruptions) but it can be a be careful what you wish for thing. If I have lots of deadlines, bosses constantly breathing down my neck, etc....they may not be a good trade off for having less interruptions.

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