How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

NYCguy wrote:For me it has always come down to three factors in the following order of priority:

1. Job satisfaction/happiness

2. Room for substantial income growth within my field

3. Competitive compensation today

If I only had 1, I would be actively looking for a new job.

If I had 1 and 3, I would be passively looking for a new job and thinking about how to improve my long-term earnings prospects.

If I have 1 and 2, it would take north of a 20% increase and a belief that I will find 1 and 2 at the new job for me to make a change. To stay in my current job in that scenario I would need to understand why my substantial growth has not occurred and when it is likely to occur.

If you have 2 and 3, it helps when your job satisfaction or happiness on the job wanes. We all sometimes have to slog through tough times but long-term I think you need some level of job satisfaction and happiness.
I would say that I have #1 (at least most of the time) and kinda have #3 but am slightly below market. I guess that is why I have been passively looking. :) I have been there for over 10 years and #2 hasn't really come into play. I'm in a small department and I get the impression that my skills are "too valuable" for me to get promoted. I don't really think I want to get promoted and get into management anyway, however. I prefer working 40 hours and going home to working 50-60+ hours and always having to be plugged in.
NYCguy wrote:It is taken me 25 years to get to this position but the strategy above has served me well. I can't stress enough the importance of finding and working with a great organization. It may be the single biggest factor to success.
And the younger when is when finding that organization, the better. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have done more job hopping when I was younger.
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seed4great
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by seed4great »

These are all great thoughts, and being in industry for >25 years I agree with pretty much every post. However, changing job if you are over 50 is really difficult. I assume it is even more challenging after 55. No matter, what benefits or salary raise you get.
The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

seed4great wrote:These are all great thoughts, and being in industry for >25 years I agree with pretty much every post. However, changing job if you are over 50 is really difficult. I assume it is even more challenging after 55. No matter, what benefits or salary raise you get.
I am upper 30s so not there yet but I have heard of ageism as soon as one hits their 40s! I figure that if I'm going to make a big move then it better be soon or else I'll be stuck.
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gunn_show
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by gunn_show »

From all that I have read, from OP and comments, I would not take this job. The increase is minimal, 45 min commute, longer hours, 630am start (?? non-starter alone for me), less vacation. No way.

But I will also say, from reading between the lines from OP, you need to learn to negotiate. You shouldn't even be at the point where you are deciding between a raise this small and additional parameters that are negatives to you. I would never have gotten this far in an interview with this many negatives, ever. I would have either negotiated them out, or quit the process and moved on. You need to read up and learn to kill / qualify these types of things much earlier in the process, with the recruiter or hiring manager or whomever. To me, things like 630am start and less vacation and only 10% raise are all non-starters to even move to the later rounds of the interview process. I can often negotiate to get these basics in an intro email from a recruiter before even having an initial phone screen.

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Move on, find better gigs to interview for.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

gunn_show wrote:From all that I have read, from OP and comments, I would not take this job. The increase is minimal, 45 min commute, longer hours, 630am start (?? non-starter alone for me), less vacation. No way.
Should I even bother with a counter offer? We are far enough apart that they would likely balk....and possibly resent me if they did cave in.
gunn_show wrote: But I will also say, from reading between the lines from OP, you need to learn to negotiate. You shouldn't even be at the point where you are deciding between a raise this small and additional parameters that are negatives to you. I would never have gotten this far in an interview with this many negatives, ever. I would have either negotiated them out, or quit the process and moved on. You need to read up and learn to kill / qualify these types of things much earlier in the process, with the recruiter or hiring manager or whomever. To me, things like 630am start and less vacation and only 10% raise are all non-starters to even move to the later rounds of the interview process. I can often negotiate to get these basics in an intro email from a recruiter before even having an initial phone screen.

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Move on, find better gigs to interview for.
Thanks for the link
You are absolutely 100% right. There was no phone screening. I should have insisted on one and requested this info much earlier in the process. And I should have handled the salary history question better , without blindly answering it. They used that information against me.
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gunn_show
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by gunn_show »

nitro4214 wrote:
gunn_show wrote:From all that I have read, from OP and comments, I would not take this job. The increase is minimal, 45 min commute, longer hours, 630am start (?? non-starter alone for me), less vacation. No way.
Should I even bother with a counter offer? We are far enough apart that they would likely balk....and possibly resent me if they did cave in.
At this point it is purely a personal decision. Again, for me: 630am start = non-starter, 45min commute = non-starter (meaning new jobs should be closer), micro-management and stricter policies = terrible, 2 weeks instead of 3 weeks vacation = terrible, and frankly in the modern era, that is a joke and should easily be negotiated. The only leverage you have, is telling them what you've had and become accustomed to the last 10 years in current job, which is higher vacation, later hours, chill management policy, etc, all while being grossly underpaid. They have to SELL YOU on why you should leave your current job to take theirs. So far, I see zero of this? Frankly I don't see what the attraction is here.

What good is a counter offer here unless you are willing to counter every one of those items in your favor? If they balk you walk. Frankly I would walk away right now anyway. Too many balls in their court right now, that you have to move over to your side, that it is unlikely most will happen.
nitro4214 wrote:
gunn_show wrote: But I will also say, from reading between the lines from OP, you need to learn to negotiate. You shouldn't even be at the point where you are deciding between a raise this small and additional parameters that are negatives to you. I would never have gotten this far in an interview with this many negatives, ever. I would have either negotiated them out, or quit the process and moved on. You need to read up and learn to kill / qualify these types of things much earlier in the process, with the recruiter or hiring manager or whomever. To me, things like 630am start and less vacation and only 10% raise are all non-starters to even move to the later rounds of the interview process. I can often negotiate to get these basics in an intro email from a recruiter before even having an initial phone screen.

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Move on, find better gigs to interview for.
Thanks for the link
You are absolutely 100% right. There was no phone screening. I should have insisted on one and requested this info much earlier in the process. And I should have handled the salary history question better , without blindly answering it. They used that information against me.
They lowballed you on salary because they had a better negotiation tactic than you did. You had none. You coughed up the goods and they've in turn given you a bag of crap = low offer, less vacation, earlier start time, tighter management, on and on. This is lose-lose for you.

Walk, unless there are other mitigating circumstances you have not told us, go back to your job and keep up the search, read up on negotiating and interviewing, and find something better. Personally I don't like to consider new jobs unless they jump up the pay 15-25% and jump the title, or some combination of both. I'm in tech sales so the starting hours / vacation / management style are all pretty congruent no matter what, it's the total comp plan (base + commission + bonus + 401k etc) and the title and career path that interest me. 10% doesn't get me out of bed, not worth the risk and hassle of changing jobs and managers and learning new products and taking on new unknown quotas, etc. YMMV.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

gunn_show wrote:At this point it is purely a personal decision. Again, for me: 630am start = non-starter, 45min commute = non-starter (meaning new jobs should be closer), micro-management and stricter policies = terrible, 2 weeks instead of 3 weeks vacation = terrible, and frankly in the modern era, that is a joke and should easily be negotiated. The only leverage you have, is telling them what you've had and become accustomed to the last 10 years in current job, which is higher vacation, later hours, chill management policy, etc, all while being grossly underpaid. They have to SELL YOU on why you should leave your current job to take theirs. So far, I see zero of this? Frankly I don't see what the attraction is here.

What good is a counter offer here unless you are willing to counter every one of those items in your favor? If they balk you walk. Frankly I would walk away right now anyway. Too many balls in their court right now, that you have to move over to your side, that it is unlikely most will happen.
If they could do something about the start time, assure me that they don't micromanage (I don't know that they do for sure), get an extra week of vacation, perhaps then it would be something worth considering?

There is still the longer work day and I doubt they would give me an 8 1/2 hour day when everyone else is working 9. That would need to be compensated monetariliy.

> They have to SELL YOU on why you should leave your current job to take theirs.

That is true. I need to put the burden on them.

But you're right, it's an uphill battle and perhaps not even worth the bother. Even if they do begrudgingly agree (which would involved adding another 10k to the salary), is that going to lead to resentment from management or even peers (i.e. "who is he to think he can come in later?")
nitro4214 wrote:They lowballed you on salary because they had a better negotiation tactic than you did. You had none. You coughed up the goods and they've in turn given you a bag of crap = low offer, less vacation, earlier start time, tighter management, on and on. This is lose-lose for you.

Walk, unless there are other mitigating circumstances you have not told us, go back to your job and keep up the search, read up on negotiating and interviewing, and find something better. Personally I don't like to consider new jobs unless they jump up the pay 15-25% and jump the title, or some combination of both. I'm in tech sales so the starting hours / vacation / management style are all pretty congruent no matter what, it's the total comp plan (base + commission + bonus + 401k etc) and the title and career path that interest me. 10% doesn't get me out of bed, not worth the risk and hassle of changing jobs and managers and learning new products and taking on new unknown quotas, etc. YMMV.
Here's what I liked about the gig: The co-workers I'd be working with and manager seem decent, the work is focused more on software development/database administration than my current job, and there would be no "on call". Those were the main reasons I was considering it.

With that being said, there is a price to pay for that, a price that isn't worth paying.

I do need to do a better job on negotiating, interviewing, and screening out employers earlier in the process.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by aceoperations »

If the new position provides opportunities to learn and expand your skill set, you should at least consider it. Expanding one's horizon is key to keeping skill sets fresh. I took a new job last year that only provided about 15% increase in pay (including target bonus). I took it mostly because the role at my then current employer had become stale without prospect for growth. The new position offered my areas to grow my skill set.

Fast forward one year. My current company is growing quickly, and my compensation quickly rose to a 20% increase compared to my former employer (with bonus). Then there were a lot more RSUs granted that was not a possibility at all, at my former employer. I have low 6 figures vesting over a period of time. Looking back, I'm glad I made the move even if it did not seem very exciting at first. I have learnt a lot more and I am excited to go in to work. The pay is nice too.

Of course, if I went in to find that the new job role was not what I was promised, or if the company business had taken a path on a downward spiral, my tone would be much different. :D
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

aceoperations wrote:If the new position provides opportunities to learn and expand your skill set, you should at least consider it. Expanding one's horizon is key to keeping skill sets fresh. I took a new job last year that only provided about 15% increase in pay (including target bonus). I took it mostly because the role at my then current employer had become stale without prospect for growth. The new position offered my areas to grow my skill set.
I think it would allow me to better focus on my more useful skills, since there would not be as many interruptions as I have now.
aceoperations wrote:Fast forward one year. My current company is growing quickly, and my compensation quickly rose to a 20% increase compared to my former employer (with bonus). Then there were a lot more RSUs granted that was not a possibility at all, at my former employer. I have low 6 figures vesting over a period of time. Looking back, I'm glad I made the move even if it did not seem very exciting at first. I have learnt a lot more and I am excited to go in to work. The pay is nice too.

Of course, if I went in to find that the new job role was not what I was promised, or if the company business had taken a path on a downward spiral, my tone would be much different. :D
That is true. Unless you already know someone in the company, it's difficult to tell whether it's a good situation or not until after you start.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by HornedToad »

IMO, most people don't leave a job they like for less than 15-20%. If they are happy where currently then I think 20-30% is more likely and meet somewhere in that range with the company of 15-30% (assuming started out fairly decent paid).

For this job, if you are interested I'd negotiate on salary and the extra vacation and potentially start time. Ask for ~10-15% more if it's something you want to do and if you are personally happy with earlier hours and longer commute.

I disagree with you on the micromanagement/more meetings comment as it seems like it's really just 1-2 meetings a week. That seems fairly normal for team meetings at a minimum in order to coordinate and work together as a team so I wouldn't infer from that meeting schedule that there will be more micromanagement. You shouldn't even ask about this in the negotiation aspect, or at least it should be phrased to be asking about independence and working style and not micromanagement.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

HornedToad wrote:IMO, most people don't leave a job they like for less than 15-20%. If they are happy where currently then I think 20-30% is more likely and meet somewhere in that range with the company of 15-30% (assuming started out fairly decent paid).

For this job, if you are interested I'd negotiate on salary and the extra vacation and potentially start time. Ask for ~10-15% more if it's something you want to do and if you are personally happy with earlier hours and longer commute.
I would not be at all happy with the earlier hours. I would need the following conditions met to consider their offer:

- An additional 10K BASE SALARY over what they are offering me. I know they are going to try and include this "profit sharing bonus" (that might go away or turn into something else eventually), which is approx 8% of my salary. I don't think the bonus should be taken into consideration as it is not guaranteed.

- An additional week of vacation. Otherwise I would have to wait five years to get back to where I am now.

- The start time would need to be pushed back at least 1 hour, preferebly 90 minutes.

That's a lot to ask for given their low ball offer. Even if they do give in, are they going to be resentful?

I'm debating whether to counter or just say thanks but no thanks. And if I do counter, the best approach to take (shoot for the stars and see if they meet halfway, or just give them my bottom line number and the vacation/schedule requests that I have and they can take it or leave it).
HornedToad wrote:I disagree with you on the micromanagement/more meetings comment as it seems like it's really just 1-2 meetings a week. That seems fairly normal for team meetings at a minimum in order to coordinate and work together as a team so I wouldn't infer from that meeting schedule that there will be more micromanagement. You shouldn't even ask about this in the negotiation aspect, or at least it should be phrased to be asking about independence and working style and not micromanagement.
Agreed.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

I called the HR person back, and as I expected, it went straight to voice mail. I left a message asking him to return my call (without specifying whether I am accepting the offer or not) If he doesn't call me soon, he may not be able to reach me this afternoon.

Should I send an e-mail declining the offer and then tell him when I am available tomorrow if he wishes to discuss further? Or just play phone tag?
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by wilked »

To the original question:

10% if I didn't like my job
20-25% if I liked my job

I am currently in the latter... Would need to be a real jump for me to make a move

The biggest thing not mentioned is the 'uncertainty factor'. There are so many things you simply can't know until you start the job (comfort level with boss, 'true' hours required, 'true' culture, ability levels of new reports, etc). This is part of why you need an increase, especially if comfortable at current gig
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by aceoperations »

I'd wait for him to return your call. If you are sure you are not taking the job, then go ahead. If there is a chance they can make you a good offer, and you will accept, declining first and accepting later leaves a sour aftertaste in the hiring process. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

aceoperations wrote:I'd wait for him to return your call. If you are sure you are not taking the job, then go ahead. If there is a chance they can make you a good offer, and you will accept, declining first and accepting later leaves a sour aftertaste in the hiring process. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
Very true.
I thought I would respect their time and expedite the process since it is likely I will decline (unless they significantly improve the offer). If it takes longer, it takes longer. Why I'm concerned about respecting their time, I'm not sure, since they are the ones that gave me a low ball offer lol.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by jlcnuke »

A. Do you expect to start liking your current job more in the future? It already drove you to look for, and interview, with this new company for a new job. Keep in mind that the things you dislike about your job now are more likely to get worse (or feel that way) than better in the future.

B. If you're fairly certain that you would not be able to compromise somewhere between "ideal" and their current offer, I would send an email with a polite "Thank you for the offer of employment with XYZ company, but I must decline the offer at this time. I appreciate your time and consideration."
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by jlcnuke »

For the original questions, I'd need 10% as a bare minimum increase to consider switching employers. For a job that would be "as good/bad" as the one I'm in, that would probably go up to 15-20%. Significant improvement in advancement/career potential would put it around the 10% range.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

jlcnuke wrote:A. Do you expect to start liking your current job more in the future? It already drove you to look for, and interview, with this new company for a new job. Keep in mind that the things you dislike about your job now are more likely to get worse (or feel that way) than better in the future.
That's a good question. My morale was at its low point late last year when our crew was reduced to a skeleton crew with no sign of relief in sight. I started looking at that time. Since then, they hired a couple of new employees that pull their weight, brought in a new director who does not believe in micromanaging, so while there are still issues (the company as a whole is unorganized), it has gotten better to the point where I phased down the job hunt a bit. This ad happened to catch my eye one day and I thought I would apply.
jlcnuke wrote:B. If you're fairly certain that you would not be able to compromise somewhere between "ideal" and their current offer, I would send an email with a polite "Thank you for the offer of employment with XYZ company, but I must decline the offer at this time. I appreciate your time and consideration."
I have a minimum salary in mind that I would consider along with a few other requirements mentioned above (i.e. relating to vacation time, work hours, etc). They would have to cave in quite a bit from their original offer. I doubt they would but perhaps I should give them a chance.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by gunn_show »

aceoperations wrote:I'd wait for him to return your call. If you are sure you are not taking the job, then go ahead. If there is a chance they can make you a good offer, and you will accept, declining first and accepting later leaves a sour aftertaste in the hiring process. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
+1. If you have 0% desire to accept the job, send the email, move on, don't waste any time on the phone.
If you have even 1% desire to throw miracle negotiation tactics their way in hopes to increase your offer, and you would possibly accept, absolutely do not decline anything until you can get this person on the phone to negotiate. Otherwise you're done.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

gunn_show wrote:+1. If you have 0% desire to accept the job, send the email, move on, don't waste any time on the phone.
If you have even 1% desire to throw miracle negotiation tactics their way in hopes to increase your offer, and you would possibly accept, absolutely do not decline anything until you can get this person on the phone to negotiate. Otherwise you're done.
If they improved their offer enough (salary AND other factors), I might be willing to jump. It's a long shot, they will likely think I'm a prima donna ad say no, but worth a try I guess.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by JuniorBH »

wilked wrote:To the original question:

10% if I didn't like my job
20-25% if I liked my job

I am currently in the latter... Would need to be a real jump for me to make a move

The biggest thing not mentioned is the 'uncertainty factor'. There are so many things you simply can't know until you start the job (comfort level with boss, 'true' hours required, 'true' culture, ability levels of new reports, etc). This is part of why you need an increase, especially if comfortable at current gig
I couldn't agree with this more - there are so many unknowns when switching jobs and there should be compensation for that risk. IMO, 10% raise is not sufficient for the level of risk (not to mention the other deal breakers previously mentioned); I would want at least 25%.

This would be different if you were currently unemployed or desperate to make a switch, but it doesn't sound like you're in this situation.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by BeneIRA »

This thread has definitely evolved in the past couple of days. It's a good read. I am going to expand on a thread that was put out there earlier, but is your current company giving new hires a higher salary than you? Will your current company just not give you a raise because you've been there for so long? If that's the case, it might be worth countering these people and trying to go for 20% or so over what they offered, and if they accept it, stay there for a year and come back to your current company, if possible, at the new higher rate. You said about 20% will put you at market rate, so you wouldn't be underpaid at that point, then when you hop to another job, you will be paid slightly above market.

However, it seems like it is has come that you don't care too much for this job. It sounds like you're just considering it so much because it is there for you as opposed to what you really want. In that case, you have a decision to make. Will you accept if they come to your terms or will you still reject it? If your pie in the sky scenario happens and you still have doubts, run away.

Also, as someone who was on the HR/Benefits side in past companies, the default answer to giving someone more PTO in a negotiation is no, but sometimes it is broken out by "levels" or an equivalent, in which case they can bump you up a level to one that gets more PTO. In other cases, the PTO was what it was no matter what unless you were an Executive, then you were a different level and the package was more malleable. We had someone negotiate a company paid car one time that was required to be replaced every three years with a new model. Fun times.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

JuniorBH wrote:I couldn't agree with this more - there are so many unknowns when switching jobs and there should be compensation for that risk. IMO, 10% raise is not sufficient for the level of risk (not to mention the other deal breakers previously mentioned); I would want at least 25%.

This would be different if you were currently unemployed or desperate to make a switch, but it doesn't sound like you're in this situation.
That is a reasonable number. I was thinking 20% at first but would have to go 25% given the longer work day.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

BeneIRA wrote:This thread has definitely evolved in the past couple of days. It's a good read. I am going to expand on a thread that was put out there earlier, but is your current company giving new hires a higher salary than you?
No. I think the new guys are being paid approx 10k less (based on what I overheard my bosses discussing).
BeneIRA wrote:Will your current company just not give you a raise because you've been there for so long?
Just cost of living increases
3% last year
BeneIRA wrote: If that's the case, it might be worth countering these people and trying to go for 20% or so over what they offered, and if they accept it, stay there for a year and come back to your current company, if possible, at the new higher rate. You said about 20% will put you at market rate, so you wouldn't be underpaid at that point, then when you hop to another job, you will be paid slightly above market.
Let's put it this way. I am paid adequately for my current job (IT support). I am underpaid as a software developer (which I do a lot of in my current position in between IT issues). My current company wouldn't bump me 20% unless I became a manager or moved to the other side of the country and worked for corporate.
BeneIRA wrote:However, it seems like it is has come that you don't care too much for this job. It sounds like you're just considering it so much because it is there for you as opposed to what you really want. In that case, you have a decision to make. Will you accept if they come to your terms or will you still reject it? If your pie in the sky scenario happens and you still have doubts, run away.
I live in a bad area for IT jobs. This is one of the best I've found (of the few that are listed), which I guess isn't saying much.

That's a good question. I'm really not sure if I would accept it. I am comfortable in my current position although not always happy (but what job is?), The 6:30am thing is a definite deal breaker as well as losing one week's vacatoin.

In fact, it might even be less as there is one week of "personal days" which I am counting as vacation. Are there companies who hassle their employees for using personal days? My current company combines everything as paid time off.
BeneIRA wrote:Also, as someone who was on the HR/Benefits side in past companies, the default answer to giving someone more PTO in a negotiation is no, but sometimes it is broken out by "levels" or an equivalent, in which case they can bump you up a level to one that gets more PTO. In other cases, the PTO was what it was no matter what unless you were an Executive, then you were a different level and the package was more malleable. We had someone negotiate a company paid car one time that was required to be replaced every three years with a new model. Fun times.
This seems to be more of an old school type of company (i.e. the first interview was in person instead of a phone screening, the application was handwritten, etc) so it would not surprise me if they didn't budge on vacation. I wasn't able to talk to the guy today but will contact him again tomorrow and see what they say.
chinto
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by chinto »

You are an experienced hire not a college hire. I would tell them you value your family time and ask for 4 weeks of vacation. They may counter with 3, if not I would not take it. If they value you, they will make an accommodation of at least 3 weeks. If not, you area commodity to them. Better the devil you know verses the one you do not know. In general IT is a cesspool these days. If you half way trust your current mgmt I would really think this over carefully.
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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

chinto wrote:You are an experienced hire not a college hire. I would tell them you value your family time and ask for 4 weeks of vacation. They may counter with 3, if not I would not take it. If they value you, they will make an accommodation of at least 3 weeks. If not, you area commodity to them.


With all of my time off including vacation, personal days, and holidays in one category (paid time off), I can possibly tell them that I already have four weeks vacation and it wouldn't be a lie.
chinto wrote: Better the devil you know verses the one you do not know. In general IT is a cesspool these days. If you half way trust your current mgmt I would really think this over carefully.
You are right that IT is a cesspool these days. I have been on quite a few interviews and sadly this was one of the better companies I have dealt with during this process.

My current management (who are relatively new) has been ok so perhaps I should just stay put unless I get an extraordinary offer. I'm not always doing the kind of work I care to be doing and not making the kind of money I thought I'd be making at this stage of my career, but I am treated like a human being and my work seems to be valued.
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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

How crazy is this idea:

The HR guy told me at the last interview they are possibly looking to hire two developers and told me to let him know if I know anyone that might be interested. Apparently they are looking to expand the department.

I work non-traditional hours including one day off during the week. What if I were to offer to be a part time contractor IF they are willing to pay a reasonable rate - I show up a full day and maybe a half day during the week, and possibly do some work remotely from home. The rate would be hourly with no benefits since I already get them through my current employer.

It would give me the opportunity to work with their people and determine if it's a place I really want to work (I believe their IT manager had the same deal before they brought him on board). It would give them the opportunity to see what I can do. Plus I would have the opportunity to make a few extra bucks.

Is there any downside to this other than possible burn out down the line? I figure it would be a short term temporary thing and then both sides re-evaluate.
chinto
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by chinto »

nitro4214 wrote:How crazy is this idea:

The HR guy told me at the last interview they are possibly looking to hire two developers and told me to let him know if I know anyone that might be interested. Apparently they are looking to expand the department.

I work non-traditional hours including one day off during the week. What if I were to offer to be a part time contractor IF they are willing to pay a reasonable rate - I show up a full day and maybe a half day during the week, and possibly do some work remotely from home. The rate would be hourly with no benefits since I already get them through my current employer.

It would give me the opportunity to work with their people and determine if it's a place I really want to work (I believe their IT manager had the same deal before they brought him on board). It would give them the opportunity to see what I can do. Plus I would have the opportunity to make a few extra bucks.

Is there any downside to this other than possible burn out down the line? I figure it would be a short term temporary thing and then both sides re-evaluate.
LOL, early I wrote a reply to you suggesting something similar (freelancing in general on a part time basis) and then decided to delete the post. I think you have a very, very good idea.
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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

I was able to get in contact with their HR person this morning.

I told him that while I appreciate the consideration, it's not enough of an increase to consider switching. He asked what I am looking for and I gave him my desired salary range.

*brief silence*

I didn't even mention the one week less vacation or early start time. He told me that while the salary I am looking for is the salary range of the developers they currently have on staff, they are a conservative company and start new employees at lower salaries. He claimed I would be there "in a couple years" and he could send me some communication that would let me know what the salary increases would look like. Also he reiterated their yearly bonus "which would put you approx 4k above the offer we made".

I reiterated that I would need my salary requirement met in order to justify switching jobs. He didn't sound too optimistic that they would be open to any increase but said he would follow up with the manager.

I did give him the option of possibly contracting part time if we can agree on a rate, which he will also ask the manager.

He then said it's been a pleasure dealing with me as if he's closing communication so I'm guessing they are not going to budge (unless it's some negotiation ploy). I didn't even get into the early start time or the one week less vacation.

Thanks to all for you replies. Just thought I'd send an update on what happened.
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Hub
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Hub »

NYCguy wrote:For me it has always come down to three factors in the following order of priority:

1. Job satisfaction/happiness

2. Room for substantial income growth within my field

3. Competitive compensation today

If I only had 1, I would be actively looking for a new job.

If I had 1 and 3, I would be passively looking for a new job and thinking about how to improve my long-term earnings prospects.

If I have 1 and 2, it would take north of a 20% increase and a belief that I will find 1 and 2 at the new job for me to make a change. To stay in my current job in that scenario I would need to understand why my substantial growth has not occurred and when it is likely to occur.

If you have 2 and 3, it helps when your job satisfaction or happiness on the job wanes. We all sometimes have to slog through tough times but long-term I think you need some level of job satisfaction and happiness.

It is taken me 25 years to get to this position but the strategy above has served me well. I can't stress enough the importance of finding and working with a great organization. It may be the single biggest factor to success.
Very well put and I couldn't agree more.

I made a big move not so long ago where I had 1 & 2, but not 3. The raise was significant at around 30-40% with upside. I knew the new place would provide 2 & 3 and my gamble would have to be on #1 just because you never know. It has worked out great, but for the record I would have not considered leaving and taking the associated risks for less than 30% raise. I was very happy in my last job and eventually my compensation would have approached market so I wasn't desperate to find a new gig, which in turn made me a very good negotiator when a great opportunity presented itself. Now I think I have 1, 2, and 3 even though the new gig comes with stress and pressure to perform that I keeps #1 from being perfect. But I knew what I was signing up for.
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nitro4214
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by nitro4214 »

There are a few lessons learned.

First of all, I need to request a phone screening first. This is a conservative company and the initial interview and follow up interview were both in person. There was a lot of wasted time between going to the interviews, driving to the interviews, scheduling, completing their applications, dealing with phone calls, etc.

I should NOT be giving out my salary history just because they ask. If they have an issue with me not providing it then I should walk. They asked for my salary history (which I gave them without hesitation) and they used it against me in this situation.

I should be asking about items such as the start time and vacation time at the initial interview (or perhaps even the phone screening?). There is no point in wasting time if those are going to be deal breakers.

Perhaps it is best to give them my salary requirements at the phone screening as well?

I think if these items were discussed at an initial phone screening, it would have prevented both sides from wasting so much time.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by BeneIRA »

nitro4214 wrote:There are a few lessons learned.

First of all, I need to request a phone screening first. This is a conservative company and the initial interview and follow up interview were both in person. There was a lot of wasted time between going to the interviews, driving to the interviews, scheduling, completing their applications, dealing with phone calls, etc.

I should NOT be giving out my salary history just because they ask. If they have an issue with me not providing it then I should walk. They asked for my salary history (which I gave them without hesitation) and they used it against me in this situation.

I should be asking about items such as the start time and vacation time at the initial interview (or perhaps even the phone screening?). There is no point in wasting time if those are going to be deal breakers.

Perhaps it is best to give them my salary requirements at the phone screening as well?

I think if these items were discussed at an initial phone screening, it would have prevented both sides from wasting so much time.
Thank you for coming back for the update. I always love to see how these things turn out. Looks like you have a good basis moving forward. It does sound like this company won't come through, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Working2notWork
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Working2notWork »

neveragain wrote:...Don't ever leave a permanent position for a contract job.
I think the above blanket statement is not fully correct. I was a "Staff" employee at my previous job and left for a contracting position, and it was by far the best move we could have ever made. Most contracting positions are paid by the hour which greatly benefits someone that puts in long hours that would otherwise be uncompensated. Contracting also alleviates you some of the office BS that "Staff" have to deal with.

You may not have the job security you previously had, but at the same time, if you're a valued contractor you'll always have a position available to you; Word gets around quickly when you're a "producer".
neveragain
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by neveragain »

Statistically, most contract jobs do not go permanent. Of course there are exceptions. Just like with everything else.
Dyloot
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Dyloot »

nitro4214 wrote:There are a few lessons learned.

First of all, I need to request a phone screening first. This is a conservative company and the initial interview and follow up interview were both in person. There was a lot of wasted time between going to the interviews, driving to the interviews, scheduling, completing their applications, dealing with phone calls, etc.

I should NOT be giving out my salary history just because they ask. If they have an issue with me not providing it then I should walk. They asked for my salary history (which I gave them without hesitation) and they used it against me in this situation.

I should be asking about items such as the start time and vacation time at the initial interview (or perhaps even the phone screening?). There is no point in wasting time if those are going to be deal breakers.

Perhaps it is best to give them my salary requirements at the phone screening as well?

I think if these items were discussed at an initial phone screening, it would have prevented both sides from wasting so much time.
I've enjoyed reading your thread, and I am sorry it doesn't seem to have worked out well for you. It does seem like it was a good learning experience.

A few points.

- What exactly is a conservative company? One that doesn't like to pay new employees well? It's probably a no-win conversation to have with a recruiter, but I'd enjoy debating that label with him over a beer. To me, a conservative company would vet a great candidate and pay him or her well to avoid the risks of hiring new employees that are willing to work for below market rates.

I applaud you for sticking to your guns. In my experience, that initial offer is everything. Many midsize to large companies that I've worked for have strict salary increase restrictions. Status quo can be anywhere from 2-3% increase a year (often not tied that closely to your personal performance), with perhaps a 5-10% increase for a title change/promotion.

This was problematic for me as a manager of a team with entry-level tech professionals. I learned very quickly that if we hired someone at $19 an hour, he'd receive a pittance for his annual raise (.60 cents an hour), and even after I got him a title change, the company's salary increase practices would cap him at $1.90. So, in brief, I had some guys who were worth $25-$30 an hour to me, yet I paid far less and didn't have the tools to get them up where they should be. Exceptions could be made, but they required a lot of director and/or executive support. A major hassle that didn't happen very often.

I recently left that company and joined another, much larger company--attracted by a 40% salary increase. I had delusions of big raises at this company -- the initial offer was so good, they must, right? -- and chuckled at my first performance review when my boss laid out the company's salary increase guidelines: 2% a year, with a 5-10% increase for a promotion. Sounded very, very familiar. Almost like these HR departments share best practices in the industry for keeping wages low? I have no regrets since I'm at a good wage, but I know I may end up leaving this job in 5-10 years if some other company dangles another huge increase in front of me and my current employer has locked down my compensation.

This may not be the rule everywhere, but what I've learned is that you really need to learn the rules so you can understand and play the game.

- Conversations on the phone with recruiters can be very awkward. I suck at them! I loved your pause comment! So true! When you failed to ask about the extra week of vacation and start time, you made it that much harder on yourself. If they come back now and offer you the job with the salary you asked for, countering with more demands will likely be even more awkward. I have a friend who recently negotiated with the recruiter via email, and I think that works very well. It's very easy to craft your presentation (I want x, y, and z), send it, and see what they come back with. It's not always easy. Be prepared to walk away from the offer. Get what you want!

- I'd be careful talking about compensation and benefits in interviews with anyone other than the recruiter. In my experience, especially in group interview settings, if it turns off one person it may come back to haunt you when they discuss the candidates. Ideally, you can request the salary range from the recruiter in advance without giving any of your own requirements. If it meets your expectations, you take the interview and focus on the work and culture in the interview. Then comes perhaps an initial offer--this is where you can ask for an offer letter or the full terms of the offer via email instead of giving them an answer on the phone. Then you can respond with any counters you wish to pursue via email.

- Finally, don't let this experience get you down. You learned a ton. You'll go into that next interview/negotiation process with more experience and confidence. You did expend a lot of energy getting here, but so did the company that offered you the job. Take it as professional skills training that they provided to you, free of charge! =D

It sounds like you have a valuable skill set. Make someone pay you to add it to their resource pool.
Ignis
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Ignis »

Very informative post.. thanks for sharing your experience. This is an old school tag so I can find it in the future.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by tesuzuki2002 »

A permanent position does not have any more job security than a contract job....


neveragain wrote:I've heard the rule of thumb is, don't switch unless you get more than a 10% increase. But it depends, everyone's life situation is different. Also how much does one hate their current job (if they hate their current job it might be worth switching even for no pay increase). Some people with even switch jobs for a better job title or better health insurance/benefits.

Don't ever leave a permanent position for a contract job.
neveragain
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by neveragain »

It still makes no sense to leave a perm position for a contract one. Especially if you'd be leaving behind your health insurance, 401K, and other benefits for a contract job with just a paycheck.
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Cloudy
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Cloudy »

I don't think it's a big deal to reveal your current salary if you work in an organization of any size. They can look at your title and go to glassdoor for a range. They may have even done so early in the process.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Meg77 »

I would schedule a meeting with your current manager and ask him to match the offer with a 20% raise. If you get even half of that I'd stay.

You should of course outline all the value you add to the company and not just demand more because of the other offer. But realize that if you have been at that company for 10 years, you are almost certainly underpaid compared to folks they've hired since you started (even in your same position). Highlight that you don't really want to leave but explain that you started looking when things were rough last year and can't really ignore a potential 20% bump in compensation.
Also make sure to note that is just the first offer and you expect they are willing to go a bit higher (obviously leave out the downsides and that the bonus may go away - this is a negotiation so don't show all your cards).

This stuff happens all the time - you'd be crazy not to try to get more money in this situation, especially since you are ambivalent about the other offer. But you do HAVE the other offer, so worst case you can always take it! After trying to bump them up a bit more as well. :D
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by TIAX »

nitro4214 wrote:I was able to get in contact with their HR person this morning.

I told him that while I appreciate the consideration, it's not enough of an increase to consider switching. He asked what I am looking for and I gave him my desired salary range.

*brief silence*
What range did you give him above what you currently make?
Pinotage
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by Pinotage »

OP - thanks for the interesting thread, and keeping us updated!

Have your feelings about your current company changed significantly since this thread from January?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=208268

If not, perhaps it is worth re-reading and thinking about your trajectory and true willingness to change.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by beyou »

I would make the decision mainly on your career interests and preferences. Your immediate salary should be less the concern than making sure you have a career that is right for you ? This is a question of support vs sw dev.

If you really truly want sw dev, ask for the $ and vacation you would find acceptable, and if they agree, take it. If not, keep looking.

You should ask yourself, if you already have the skills you want to focus on, and if not, a job that is lateral in pay, might be useful to improve the skills you prefer. If you are already a master at your desired role, hold out for an employer who will make you a competitve offer.
rgs92
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by rgs92 »

Realize that development can be a lot more stressful than support because in development the buck stops with you.
If there is a bug, YOU have to figure it out and fix it and everything stops and waits for you, because you are suddenly the center of the world and everyone is looking at you (blaming you while you are in the spotlight). Do you want that pressure? And it WILL happen time to time.

As a support person, you have the luxury of handing over the problem to the developers and you just say you are waiting on them to fix it, a ready-made excuse. Nothing like a good excuse.

Have you done development before or fairly recently? Did you like it? Do you know the nature/complexity/reliability of the code foundation you would be working on? Is it maintenance or new development? Is it spaghetti-code world? (If so, stay away).

You NEVER know what you are getting into when you go into a new system. A lot of them are held together by rubber bands and glue. You will see no comments in the code, no documentation, no design documents, and the people who wrote it are often long gone or don't want to talk about it at all.

And suddenly after a few days you are labeled as the expert as if you have a movie director's chair with the work "expert" on it and you get grief if you can't fix something right away in this mountain of steaming code.

Try talking to someone who works there in the trenches if you can. You may get an earful.

This is all way more important than the salary/commute stuff in IT.
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Re: How much of an increase of salary would you expect before switching jobs?

Post by WageSlave »

NYCguy wrote:For me it has always come down to three factors in the following order of priority:

1. Job satisfaction/happiness

2. Room for substantial income growth within my field

3. Competitive compensation today

If I only had 1, I would be actively looking for a new job.

If I had 1 and 3, I would be passively looking for a new job and thinking about how to improve my long-term earnings prospects.

If I have 1 and 2, it would take north of a 20% increase and a belief that I will find 1 and 2 at the new job for me to make a change. To stay in my current job in that scenario I would need to understand why my substantial growth has not occurred and when it is likely to occur.

If you have 2 and 3, it helps when your job satisfaction or happiness on the job wanes. We all sometimes have to slog through tough times but long-term I think you need some level of job satisfaction and happiness.

Today I am fortunate to have all three and I regularly turn down offers in excess of 20% and six figures of additional income.

It is taken me 25 years to get to this position but the strategy above has served me well. I can't stress enough the importance of finding and working with a great organization. It may be the single biggest factor to success.
Interesting take. What if you had 3 and only 3? And how do you find 1?

I'm in a position where, if I could find a job where 1 was a guarantee, and the pay and benefits were reasonable given my level of experience---which would be a 70%ish cut---I'd jump in a heartbeat. Heck, I even starting a thread asking how to find such a job.

As others have said, the devil you know is better than the one you don't. I'm sure there is a gig out there that would provide item 1, i.e. satisfaction and happiness. But I'm pushing 40 and have a young family; I don't feel it's a good time to go job-hopping unless the next step has a lot of certainty. I may not love every day at my job, but at least I'm building an increasingly large nestegg for my family.

I used this analogy in the other thread, and I stand by it: imagine someone offers you 8-10x what you'd make in any other job you might consider. You also get great benefits, PTO, 401(k) matching, paid holidays. And your peers are people you actually like and respect. But the job is digging ditches. And management tells you when and how to dig, how to hold the shovel, and you better ask permission to wear gloves because it's a whole lot easier than begging for forgiveness if they don't approve of gloves.
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