Liability with dogs, hypothetical

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aristotelian
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by aristotelian »

We had a relevant incident with our pit mix. A neighbor was on our property after asking permission to join our yardsale. His kid entered our house without permission and came out crying claiming our dog bit him. No witnesses, no history of aggression but there was a small scrape. The father threatened to sue at which point we called our homeowners insurance. They said it would be covered as a one time claim but we would have to get rid of the dog. We ended up paying out of pocket to settle with no insurance claim.
rebellovw
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by rebellovw »

Pajamas wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote: Invisible fences might not be foolproof, but other than initial issues with a Beagle, we've had 15 years of keeping our dogs where they belonged. We have LOADS of prey going by, all the time, but the dogs don't cross the line.
Yeah, that's all great until your dog crosses the line. It happens. Past behavior is no guarantee. Those dogs that kill babies were always sweet and trustworthy right up until they went bad and they are always sweet if no longer trustworthy afterwards. Dogs are dogs. Be responsible to your dog as well as to other dogs and animals and other people.

At a minimum, let your insurance agent know that you have a pit bull mix restrained only by an invisible fence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog ... ted_States
Yeahh - ok - I'm going to call my insurance everytime something comes up that they didn't ask about. Hey insurance - I'm going to go out to dinner tonight - I might have a drink perhaps two - FYI! Hey insurance - I'm going to use this rented chainsaw to trim a tree or this nail gun - FYI!
white_water
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by white_water »

Pit bulls are great until they aren't, just like some other breeds. Owning a pit mix rescue carries an element of chance.
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Pajamas
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by Pajamas »

rebellovw wrote:
Yeahh - ok - I'm going to call my insurance everytime something comes up that they didn't ask about. Hey insurance - I'm going to go out to dinner tonight - I might have a drink perhaps two - FYI! Hey insurance - I'm going to use this rented chainsaw to trim a tree or this nail gun - FYI!
If you leave a chainsaw or nail gun sitting in your yard every day where anyone can walk up to it and pick it up and use it, yeah, you should notify your insurance agent. Same with an open well or a dog.
rebellovw
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by rebellovw »

Pajamas wrote:
rebellovw wrote:
Yeahh - ok - I'm going to call my insurance everytime something comes up that they didn't ask about. Hey insurance - I'm going to go out to dinner tonight - I might have a drink perhaps two - FYI! Hey insurance - I'm going to use this rented chainsaw to trim a tree or this nail gun - FYI!
If you leave a chainsaw or nail gun sitting in your yard every day where anyone can walk up to it and pick it up and use it, yeah, you should notify your insurance agent. Same with an open well or a dog.
Got it - your comments were specific to the electric fence being a weak barrier - which I agree with.
B4Xt3r
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by B4Xt3r »

Pajamas wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote: Invisible fences might not be foolproof, but other than initial issues with a Beagle, we've had 15 years of keeping our dogs where they belonged. We have LOADS of prey going by, all the time, but the dogs don't cross the line.
Past behavior is no guarantee...
I've been waiting for someone to make a "past performance does not predict future results" joke.
earlyout
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by earlyout »

aristotelian wrote:We had a relevant incident with our pit mix. A neighbor was on our property after asking permission to join our yardsale. His kid entered our house without permission and came out crying claiming our dog bit him. No witnesses, no history of aggression but there was a small scrape. The father threatened to sue at which point we called our homeowners insurance. They said it would be covered as a one time claim but we would have to get rid of the dog. We ended up paying out of pocket to settle with no insurance claim.
Whether you paid the claim or your insurance company paid the claim, the insurance industry now knows you have a dog that attacked someone. If it happens again, you may find that you have no insurance for any claim related to that animal.
blurryvision
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by blurryvision »

OP: Are there local laws that prohibit your dog being off leash in front of your home? Does your dog often run around on your property off leash?
sevenseas
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by sevenseas »

TomatoTomahto wrote: She puts up with attitude from our 7# Yorkie without being aggressive herself. The two of them often sleep in her bed. The three dogs across the street bark at her often, and she does the dog equivalent of rolling her eyes. She's a pretty mellow dog, spayed (obviously), and at 3 years of age, is losing the puppy energy. At the vet's waiting room, she always behaves even when other dogs puff up, and if I tell her to sit and down, she does.

I had heard that those DNA panels were imperfect, but they will be better than nothing. I have also heard that they've improved over time, with a more extensive database.
She sounds like a very good girl! Sounds like you might have gotten lucky to find a dog-friendly Pittie. A minor note of caution: dog aggression often does not manifest until dogs hit social maturity. My dog played absolutely fine with other dogs till about 1.5 years of age, and by 2+ had clear issues. At 3 yrs old your dog is probably past the point where she would have started showing signs, if she had this tendency.

I should add, glad that you have been converted! We vets as a general rule love this breed. I have many colleagues who also own (sadly, at least in part because our local shelters are full of them.)
JGoneRiding
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by JGoneRiding »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
JGoneRiding wrote:My advice as a vet--if your dog is an unclear mixed breed NEVER admit its half/part pit. Always say its a great dane mix/lab mix/boxer mix/ American bull dog mix (I actually think this is the much more aggressive breed)--anything that can explain the big head odd ear set pattern.
I have ordered a DNA kit to get a better handle on the ancestry. But, until then, she's a rescue so I don't know.

I have seen the results of tons of these tests. They are WRONG. LOl I Have no idea why they are so wrong but I can tell you right now that they are funny more than anything. I personally think they throw darts at the wall. Unless your dog is 50% something the tests are super random. They come up sometimes with breeds that don't even exist in any reasonable number to get a mutt. One company dropped out of mix breed identification and now only does pure bred verification which is more accurate. But for $60 it can be fun!

For example I have a patient that stands about 8-12 inch tall. She is clearly half dachshund half???? There is no debate over this. They sent in for the test. Came back 1/2 dachs 1/2 German shepherd!! We sent in a pic money was fully refunded.
JGoneRiding
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by JGoneRiding »

Pajamas wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote: Invisible fences might not be foolproof, but other than initial issues with a Beagle, we've had 15 years of keeping our dogs where they belonged. We have LOADS of prey going by, all the time, but the dogs don't cross the line.
Yeah, that's all great until your dog crosses the line. It happens. Past behavior is no guarantee. Those dogs that kill babies were always sweet and trustworthy right up until they went bad and they are always sweet if no longer trustworthy afterwards. Dogs are dogs. Be responsible to your dog as well as to other dogs and animals and other people.

At a minimum, let your insurance agent know that you have a pit bull mix restrained only by an invisible fence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog ... ted_States
God no why why assume additional liability the OP lives in a non-discrimatory state!! Do not assume liability. Call agent tell them you have a "mixed breed" dog no biggie make sure a "dog" is covered. I live in a similar state this is what happens if you make a claim: Dog bit----Full coverage 1-2 months later insurance agent calls, informs you they will drop you if this is "bad" (they always think it is) Then you have 2 options. You rehome the dog (most states have 3 strikes so this is legal) or you put the dog down (I have had to do several, obviously not my dogs). There is nothing else to do. BUT do not claim a "dangerous breed" ownership you have no legal responsibility to do so!!!!
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by TomatoTomahto »

blurryvision wrote:OP: Are there local laws that prohibit your dog being off leash in front of your home? Does your dog often run around on your property off leash?
I can't imagine that there are such local laws, because
1. Half of the houses on the block have dogs off leash running around (with invisible fences) and
2. The woman who calls the cops for every minor transgression hasn't called. She's a bitter retired lawyer who appears to have studied the towns rules and laws.

My dog actually doesn't spend that much time outside. She prefers the companionship indoors and her very comfy bed.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by TomatoTomahto »

sevenseas wrote:She sounds like a very good girl! Sounds like you might have gotten lucky to find a dog-friendly Pittie.
It was partly luck, but our son had been volunteering at the rescue for some time, and was the first in our family to fall in love with this dog. He knew my views about the breed, but worked on me for quite a while. I agreed, finally, to foster the dog, saying that I wouldn't adopt until we had a professional trainer evaluate and train her. So, part luck, part observant son. :D
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
aristotelian
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by aristotelian »

earlyout wrote:
aristotelian wrote:We had a relevant incident with our pit mix. A neighbor was on our property after asking permission to join our yardsale. His kid entered our house without permission and came out crying claiming our dog bit him. No witnesses, no history of aggression but there was a small scrape. The father threatened to sue at which point we called our homeowners insurance. They said it would be covered as a one time claim but we would have to get rid of the dog. We ended up paying out of pocket to settle with no insurance claim.
Whether you paid the claim or your insurance company paid the claim, the insurance industry now knows you have a dog that attacked someone. If it happens again, you may find that you have no insurance for any claim related to that animal.
It was a "hypothetical" conversation, of course. They did say their policy would be to back one claim.
skepticalobserver
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by skepticalobserver »

State laws for civil liability are all over the place when dogs bite humans. Some allow an owner to get a pass for one bite (the “one bite” rule), some attach liability if the owner has “scienter,” that is, foreknowledge of the dog’s propensity to bite. For dog on dog action (or human on dog for that matter) in common law animals are deemed chattel and therefore the measure of damages is limited to “specials,” aka out-of-pocket costs. I understand, however, some of our more progressive jurisdictions (CA, naturally) may allow for recovery for non-economic loss as well.
MDfive21
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by MDfive21 »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
MDfive21 wrote:OP if you're wondering what breed mix you have, i recommend the wisdom panel. it put a lot of speculation to rest when we adopted a pair of little mutts. i was certain they were swiss mountain dogs mixed with something smaller, but it turns out they were a chow/husky/lab and shetland sheepdog mix. your dog may look like a pit, but could be something else. the dna test will possibly put your mind at ease, or will give you reason to be more careful. either way, you will have a better feel for how to handle other dog owners.
Thank you for the recommendation. I just ordered a kit.
it will take a few weeks but do report back!
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I got the kit today and will send it out Monday.

Having Googled some images, she looks most like a Great Dane Boxer mix. I'm curious what the DNA shows, caveats acknowledged.

I will report the results.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
blueberry
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Re: Liability with dogs, hypothetical

Post by blueberry »

TomatoTomahto wrote:I got the kit today and will send it out Monday.

Having Googled some images, she looks most like a Great Dane Boxer mix. I'm curious what the DNA shows, caveats acknowledged.

I will report the results.
I'm sure you'll be thinking clear on what to report or not depending on the results. Also please know, dogs can get much more aggressive as they age, and if they are a breed that has been bred for generations to have a damaging bite... A neighbor has pit bull confined by underground electric fence and so far so good, but when that dog goes out to 'greet' people walking by, I've observed their terror.

I can't see how people don't connect the dots on the huge impact selective breeding has had on dogs - just look at pomeranian and great dane - dog bred for hard bite aggression, no thanks.
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