Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

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dm200
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:41 am

Steelersfan wrote:
RadAudit wrote:Gift your share to a charity and let them force the sale.


If you "gift" it to a charity it would actually be a tax deductible donation and would result in tax savings. That's a good thing.

But I think it would be very hard to find a charity who would be willing to step into a situation like this, knowing the future legal cost and possible bad publicity that would ensue.


I wonder if a charity would even get involved in such a mess?

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Jackson12 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:42 am

Payoffhouse wrote:
House issues have been brought up before but not in writing. Agree, 1 accident or natural disasters wipes out the house. I have also expressed my concern over not having insurance.


At the very least, consider getting basic homeowner's insurance in the interim. Even an excellent insurance with high liability coverage, etc can cost under $200 a month - given the value of the home. Perhaps well under. Not sure.

We've been hit twice by severe hailstorms. In one instance, our entire neighborhood was declared a disaster area and insurance paid for a new roof. In another instance, a water pipe under a floor sprung a leak. Insurance paid both times ( minus any deductible, which was not high) .
.
Hopefully, you can split the monthly cost of the insurance with 1 or more siblings. If not, consider the fact that the house is an asset and weigh the benefits of covering insurance costs yourself, compared to the risk of losing your $50,000 stake in the home ( actual amount dependent on selling price, etc).

The bottom line is how much you're willing to risk, financially and otherwise, in order to maintain peace and harmony wih your siblings. You can pursue legal measures and risk permanent estrangement as well.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Lexi » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:48 am

Sometimes you just have to accept that siblings are not likely to have good relationships in the future. Make a good offer to sell your share to the keepers or buy the keepers out and then sell. If they don't agree then go to court and force the sale. Giving relatives time to adjust is important but they have had too long already ( I gave my sibling a few extra months to figure out how to proceed but not five years). At this point whatever $ you get out of it is a plus -- don't get hung up on maximizing return. This asset is deteriorating and declining in value as it sits empty and untended and presents potential liability to you.

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Watty
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Watty » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:28 am

Not matter what keeping the house empty is not an option. The only choices are to rent it or sell it.

Buying insurance for a vacant home will be difficult especially in Florida where home insurance can be difficult to get anyway.

Payoffhouse wrote:4. 3 want to sell and 2 want to keep.


I am not a lawyer but when you talk to one that should make getting it sold a lot easier.

When the two reluctant siblings get to the point of having to pay hire their own lawyer they will likely not be willing to put up the money to pay a lawyer to try to block the sale and will reluctantly agree to sell it.

In the long run the siblings that are not as financially well off should be glad to have the proceeds. If nothing else that money could be used to pay for their kids college or to help pay off their homes.

It was a different situation where someone was posting about trying to decide to keep their parents home as a rental for sentimental reasons and someone said something like, "Keeping it because of the great semental memories will ruin the great memories with the bad memories of trying to be a landlord."

I don't know about that housing market but in many areas housing prices have increased enough over the last five years to help you at least break even on having delayed the sale that long. That might be a face-saving way for the reluctant sellers to come out looking OK since they could claim that the delay allowed you to get more money for the house.

Most housing markets are doing pretty good right now. I would encourage you to get this resolved sooner rather than later since in a bad housing market it can be very difficult to sell a house with deferred maintenance.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby msk » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:40 am

Logic and reason have nothing to do with these situations. My situation. I looked after my Dad's inheritance for all my siblings and mother for around 30 years. Rental property, high net income, reinvesting into stocks endlessly. Even built more, but one day the time came when I got tired. Sold the stocks and 2 apartment blocks. No opposition. They all welcomed the substantial cash distributions. Then came the remainder, 2 houses in town and a beach house. 80% opposed to sale. Fortuitously, the government expropriated the beach house for a resort development and I breathed a sigh of relief. Another dollop of cash smoothed out friction. Last two houses are next to each other and are worth perhaps 2.5 million $. Entrenched opposition to any sale at any "reasonable" price! Problem is, the two rents add up to less than a 2.5% yield. Yes, RE sometimes behaves in strange ways, lowish rents but sky high valuations. So I threatened to totally abandon the two houses and if they fall into disrepair, so be it. Anyone wishing to keep them, waiting for an "acceptable" price (to them) had better do all the running around for maintenance and dealing with estate agents. After some months finally we got some common sense dawning. The whole lot agreed to a minimum sale price of $2 million for the two houses. Now, THEIR children came in, seeing houses for sale at a possible discount, for family sentimental reasons. Two kids wanted to buy them, but neither had the cash. Finally, after a lot of nasty intra-family squabbling everyone settled on one buyer (he also appeared to have more possibilities of coughing up the $ quickly). Months later, I am still waiting for the cash... He offered to pay an installment, but this time I stood my ground, all or nothing. What? Take a nephew to court in a few years for nonpayment?! Frankly, matter is still unresolved. He moved in, both houses (uses one as an office) and pays the full commercial rent. Yes, the 2.5% yield :annoyed But at least I now refuse to have anything to do with estate agents or maintenance people. He takes care of everything and keeps promising that the $2 million will materialize "next" month. Moral of the story? The keepers NEVER apply any effort or money to the upkeep. Almost invariably they are the ones who are cash-short and sentiment-rich. Stop supporting them with either time or money. Be prepared for a total loss and hope they will come to their senses quickly. It's never worth it to have family squabbles if the money involved is not a life-style game changer. The OP is doing the right thing. Plead for sympathy from BHs :P but there are very few options available.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby bayview » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:55 am

OP, I know that you fear family disharmony and disruption if a sale is forced, but it sounds like the five of you are already pretty much at that point. And in the meantime, of course, everyone's interest (whether financial or sentimental) is jeopardized by the failure to insure and maintain the house. Are the keepers so sentimental that staring at the ashes of the family home after an arsonist or lightning strike is comforting?

I'd get with the other two sellers and tell the keepers, sorry, this has gone on long enough, and the house must be sold, either to the two of you or out of the family entirely. Five years unoccupied, no rent, no nothing, is ridiculous.
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Nearly A Moose » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:21 am

Sorry for the bad situation. I think the threshold questions are:
1) how important to you is your share of the value? As some have alluded, $50k may or may not be a lot of money to you. Don't think I saw this answered in the chain.
2) how much to you and the other sellers value family haromony?

If (1) is not much and (2) is relatively high, then just gift your share however you want. 1/4 to each person, 1/2 to each remaining "seller", whatever. Gets the liability off your shoulders (you do not want someone injuring themselves on the property) and avoids family strife.

If (1) is high and (2) is low, then you should make a good faith pitch with everyone to sell, then consult a lawyer about partition and any other remedies.

Obviously all family dynamics, but it's not that uncommon for some sibs to financially support others, whether indirectly through lots of hand me downs, direct payments, whatever. You could think of this as your way of sort of helping the other sibs financially without having to give them cash, which might also help you emotionally if you're asked for money later and want to say "no."

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby 2pedals » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:39 am

FIREchief wrote:
delamer wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Really? That is 2 years of college for one of my kids.


Yep, that's just crazy talk. Not many of us that would give away $50K just to avoid a fight.


In the context of this thread it is not crazy talk. The inheritance in the form of an illiquid liability. Attached to it are sentimental feelings. My parents would never want my brothers to fight over an inheritance and lose much of it the legal fees. I would do whatever I could to honor my parents wishes. There has to be way to settle this in a civil manor. Anything else would scar the family forever.
Last edited by 2pedals on Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Afull » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:50 am

Interesting thread. How about getting an appraisal then the five of you go to an attorney together who can explain all the possible options. The attorney should also explain the risks of having a house sitting empty, uninsured, in disrepair, and in arrears on taxes.

Just a thought.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby mouses » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:59 am

I haven't had time to read the other replies.

This is a mess like one I was in with my Mom's estate. In hindsight, the lower stress option that preserves family feeling is best, unless the $50,000 is a stumbling block. $50,000 is a lot of money, but you did not have it before this inheritance. Plus, I don't think you are going to see that $50,000 anyway, it would be eaten up by attorney's fees and you are open to a very major loss in liability, as others have pointed out.

The stress from this type of situation can be enormous. Yours is worse than mine was, because at least my Mom's house was insured, including liability insurance.

I would gift your portion of the property to your siblings, either in equal shares or all of it to the ones who want to sell. Hopefully they will accept it. If they don't, I have no idea what you can do. Perhaps an attorney can tell you if there is some way to abandon property legally in your state.

This is why I would never leave property to more than one person.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby mouses » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:03 am

2pedals wrote:
FIREchief wrote:
delamer wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Really? That is 2 years of college for one of my kids.


Yep, that's just crazy talk. Not many of us that would give away $50K just to avoid a fight.


In the context of this thread it is not crazy talk. The inheritance in the form of an illiquid liability. Attached to it are sentimental feelings. My parents would never want my brothers to fight over an inheritance and lose much of it the legal fees. I would do whatever I could to honor my parents wishes. There has to be way to settle this in a civil manor. Anything else would scar the family forever.


I am a middle class, maybe lower middle class person. As a retired person, $50,000 is a year's living expenses. If you have seen a family torn apart by one of these situations, where most people are irrational due to the sentimental attachment, $50,000 (as noted there is no chance the OP will ever see $50,000 anyway and may incur a major loss if an accident happens on the property) is well worth giving up.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Blueskies123 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:07 am

A side note, but still on topic, is that when you work on your will you should never just leave a house or any other large asset to 5 kids. How and when it can be sold and proceeds divided should be clearly written in the will. My parents left me in charge of all asset disposal decisions and the net proceeds are to be divided equally.
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby letsgobobby » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:17 am

The keepers NEVER apply any effort or money to the upkeep. Almost invariably they are the ones who are cash-short and sentiment-rich. Stop supporting them with either time or money.


In my experience as a psychiatrist this is very wise advise. I have seen this situation many times. Ironically it is usually those with no money who want to keep, those who don't need the money who want to sell. It's hard when some siblings have money, and some don't, but in my experience more than a few months to think about things does not usually result in changed minds.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby letsgobobby » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:18 am

Blueskies123 wrote:A side note, but still on topic, is that when you work on your will you should never just leave a house or any other large asset to 5 kids. How and when it can be sold and proceeds divided should be clearly written in the will. My parents left me in charge of all asset disposal decisions and the net proceeds are to be divided equally.

Alternatively, leave to a trust with a single trustee who has full executive authority.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby ddurrett896 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:18 am

Payoffhouse wrote:Background info:

4. The siblings who want to keep house do not have the financial means to "buy-out" the other siblings.
5. The house is somewhat in average shape but rapidly deteriorating.

The siblings who do not want to sell are pretty adamant about it and basically have "over my dead body" attitude. Relationtionship between the siblings have been pretty strained lately.

So my questions is what are my options if I want to sell?


The barrier is they are somehow attached to the house. Being attached, I would focus on two things:

1) If they are so attached to the house, why let it deteriorate or risk losing to storm/fire because of no insurance?
2) They have no means to buy out the other siblings meaning they won't ever live in the house.

I'm in a house that was owned by my wife's grandmother and went thru the same situation with 4 siblings. Some wanted to keep in the family and sell at a discount - others want to sell at market rate which would require work that nobody wants to pay for. At the end it worked, but wasn't easy.

My advice would be to focus on why the house should be maintained, for sentiment and potential resale, and hope they have a change of mind. For someone with little to no money, $50,000 can sway an opinion especially if something they want is out of reach.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby celia » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:34 am

Are the two hold-outs married? Is this a case of the estate beneficiaries saying their spouses are not party to this and thus have no say? Even though that may be legally true, would it be possible for you to talk to the spouses of the hold-outs and see if the spouses agree that it should be sold? Since there is uncovered liability on the property, their overall financial interests can be at stake.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby delamer » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:40 am

letsgobobby wrote:
The keepers NEVER apply any effort or money to the upkeep. Almost invariably they are the ones who are cash-short and sentiment-rich. Stop supporting them with either time or money.


In my experience as a psychiatrist this is very wise advise. I have seen this situation many times. Ironically it is usually those with no money who want to keep, those who don't need the money who want to sell. It's hard when some siblings have money, and some don't, but in my experience more than a few months to think about things does not usually result in changed minds.


This is interesting. I assume it isn't coincidence that those who have made good financial decisions in the past and have assets now are less willing to hang onto something for sentimental reasons.

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F150HD
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby F150HD » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:41 am

It's simply crazy that you guys have kept an unoccupied, uninsured house for five years already.


I am curious what the insurance agent for this home says about the house being unoccupied? (despite family being nearby)

https://www.trustedchoice.com/homeowners-insurance/home-coverage-types/vacant-home/

_

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Smorgasbord » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:03 am

If you are lucky, after selling expenses you might walk away with a bit over $40k each. I would offer to sell my share for $20k, and keep lowering the price till someone bites.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby InMyDreams » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:25 am

2pedals wrote:Anything else would scar the family forever.


Condon's book, Beyond the Grave, makes this point repeatedly. It's unlikely that a parent deliberately set about to create this tension, but it is the likely outcome when the heirs have different objectives.

So, the threes need to decide (individually or as a group) what they want and what they'll give up to get it
* maintain civil relations with the twos, but give up any significant inheritance
or
* take it to court, with out much hope of being on speaking terms with the twos, and significant loss of $$ to court and attorney fees.

I don't think there are other options, except perhaps variations on the themes.

Arbitration might be able to talk thru the competing objectives, for less cost than going to an attorney/going to court. Hopefully an arbitrator would be able to keep the focus on both the practicalities of owning the property (taxes, insurance, upkeep, etc) and what your mother would have wanted.

I don't think it's just the loss of house you need to insure against - if there's an injury related to the property, I would guess that any award would be taken from all the property owners, even beyond the value of the property.

So sorry that this is such a difficult time.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:28 am

Logic and reason have nothing to do with these situations.


Exactly. I suspect that the holdouts (with no money) are the type that you cannot tell anything. The only way they learn the stove is hot is by getting their hands burned. Then they might even blame you.

You cannot win in such cases, in my opinion. GIVE them your share of the house, extricate yourself from any liability -- and let them learn the hard way. 1/5 share of a house cannot be worth the risks.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby HornedToad » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:46 am

InMyDreams wrote:
2pedals wrote:Anything else would scar the family forever.


Condon's book, Beyond the Grave, makes this point repeatedly. It's unlikely that a parent deliberately set about to create this tension, but it is the likely outcome when the heirs have different objectives.

So, the threes need to decide (individually or as a group) what they want and what they'll give up to get it
* maintain civil relations with the twos, but give up any significant inheritance
or
* take it to court, with out much hope of being on speaking terms with the twos, and significant loss of $$ to court and attorney fees.

I don't think there are other options, except perhaps variations on the themes.


I've seen several people say that giving up the share of the inheritance is a way to keep civil relations. It seems naive to me that the 3 siblings that wanted to sell and are basically strong-armed into keeping it would be able to maintain civil relations with the other two siblings after having to give up their share of their parents inheritance to extract themselves from this mess.... That would leave as bad of feelings on their end as a forced sell would on the other side.

IMO, go to a lawyer or arbitration and get it done that way. But I agree it can't drag out with no insurance and having to pay property tax/etc.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Goal33 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:01 pm

2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby delamer » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:06 pm

HornedToad wrote:
InMyDreams wrote:
2pedals wrote:Anything else would scar the family forever.


Condon's book, Beyond the Grave, makes this point repeatedly. It's unlikely that a parent deliberately set about to create this tension, but it is the likely outcome when the heirs have different objectives.

So, the threes need to decide (individually or as a group) what they want and what they'll give up to get it
* maintain civil relations with the twos, but give up any significant inheritance
or
* take it to court, with out much hope of being on speaking terms with the twos, and significant loss of $$ to court and attorney fees.

I don't think there are other options, except perhaps variations on the themes.


I've seen several people say that giving up the share of the inheritance is a way to keep civil relations. It seems naive to me that the 3 siblings that wanted to sell and are basically strong-armed into keeping it would be able to maintain civil relations with the other two siblings after having to give up their share of their parents inheritance to extract themselves from this mess.... That would leave as bad of feelings on their end as a forced sell would on the other side.

IMO, go to a lawyer or arbitration and get it done that way. But I agree it can't drag out with no insurance and having to pay property tax/etc.


Excellent comment.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Shackleton » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:39 pm

F150HD wrote:
It's simply crazy that you guys have kept an unoccupied, uninsured house for five years already.


I am curious what the insurance agent for this home says about the house being unoccupied? (despite family being nearby)

https://www.trustedchoice.com/homeowners-insurance/home-coverage-types/vacant-home/

_

Uninsured houses don't have insurance agents or companies that worry about the occupancy status. :D
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Jack FFR1846 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:43 pm

Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


Pretty close to the average income for a family of 4 in the US for the year.
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby ChrisC » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:20 pm

Ah, the tyranny of the minority, the stupid, and the emotionally-challenged! A very tough situation. If you can't work this out, then a partition-suit might be the best alternative to walking away or keeping the status quo. If you want to work this out, I suggest you change the ground rules and the legal terrain under which you're currently operating. Perhaps, you can convince all owners to transfer ownership to an LLC and map out details for operating the property in an operating agreement, with a managing member, with operating expenses, and with voting rights so that a majority of the members can dictate the course of future disposition or maintenance of the property -- the LLC might also give the members some liability shield, as well. I'd pitch the LLC as a way to manage the property better, but one could include detailed provisions that provide for majority approved sale of the property.

This is how my family worked out our sibling ownership of inherited property -- we haven't crossed the bridge yet of a sale of the property, but we do have provisions governing a sale. It's likely in my case, in which we have a 3 sibling situation, that one sibling -- the one who currently lives in the property -- will never approve a sale, even though she has greater financial incentives from a sale occurring than the other 2 siblings.

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dm200
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:38 pm

In my opinion, it may be that the legal expenses to file a lawsuit to force the sale of the property may severely eat into the 1/5 interest that such a forced sale would yield.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Good Listener » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:12 pm

To me, ultimately I weigh the greatest risk. That is not a foreclosure or the house burning down or having it deteriorate in value. It is the jon-insurance. If it were me, I would not go one day longer without beginning to get out ofany ownership of this property. I would go to a lawyer, not necessarily to sue, but to see how to have my share disposed of either by gift or sale or whatever. Because if somebody gets horrifically injured there and sue's and wins,,,,,, the keepers are those with nothing and you are on the hook. I take this very seriously.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby 2pedals » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:40 pm

Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


Why you are so stunned? Just an suggestion to keep family harmony. If it were me I would not want to have anything to do with it. I am sure under this relationship I would not be able to get an umbrella policy.

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dm200
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:55 pm

In reviewing the details, I now see (I think) that there are 3 for the sale and two (with no money each) for keeping it. If the three are 100% unified and in agreement, then I might change my opinion towards legally forcing a sale. My guess is that the two holdouts will try to drive a wedge of dissent among the three.

3/5 of the value (even with attorney fees) is a more significant amount to net.

I would also look into (don't know details) "selling" the 3/5 to an intermediary that, for a fee/cut, will be the ongoing "bad guy" so the three of you can truthfully say that you are no longer involved.

Maybe with three of you on the same side you can have (partial at least) family Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby mrc » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:06 pm

Payoffhouse wrote:Background info:
2. Mom's house was transferred to all 5 sons/ daughters during probate (father passed away 10 years ago).
4. The siblings who want to keep house do not have the financial means to "buy-out" the other siblings.
5. The house is somewhat in average shape but rapidly deteriorating.
7. Property taxes are paid but usually late.
8. House not insured as not required once house is paid-off.
9. The house is in Florida.

The siblings who do not want to sell are pretty adamant about it and basically have "over my dead body" attitude. Relationship between the siblings have been pretty strained lately.

[attachment is sentimental]

So my questions is what are my options if I want to sell?


Been there. Done that.

Your parents are gone. The siblings that are against a sale hanging on like this is not rational and could be for any number of reasons. The siblings that are against a sale must each immediately begin paying 1/5th of upkeep, insurance, and property tax OR buy the house from the two that don't want to own a part house OR consent to a sale. The sale can be a partition if necessary (e.g., forced, but that will lower the proceeds — which may help siblings let go).

The risk of loosing the home slowly, over time, to deterioration or vandalism is no way to honor mom and dad. The risk of liability (at least for the siblings with means) for an uninsured house are great and need fixing now. Use the leverage you can gain from the other two sale-friendly siblings to form the plan to a) pay upkeep, b) buy it, or c) sell it. And the house can't stand empty for long either but I'm assuming you have little interest in being a landlord. So option "c" emerges as the betion option all around. Selling out doesn't mean the resistant siblings love the parents any less.

Once the sale is settled, any lingering bad feelings were likely there before, and would likely be there no matter what happens with the house.
A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you're doing it right, but not enough to know you're doing it wrong. — Neil deGrasse Tyson

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby adamthesmythe » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:45 pm

Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


50K WAS the amount that could have been realized if all were cooperative.

NOW, with deferred maintenance and the legal costs of a partition action the expected value is less. Now subtract an allowance for insurance risk, emotional cost and time spent. You end up pretty close to zero.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby FIREchief » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:10 pm

2pedals wrote:
Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


Why you are so stunned? Just an suggestion to keep family harmony. If it were me I would not want to have anything to do with it. I am sure under this relationship I would not be able to get an umbrella policy.


This does not sound like a harmonious family already.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby FIREchief » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:14 pm

FIREchief wrote:Okay, I've got the answer.

Who is paying the property taxes? I'm guessing one (or all) of the "sellers."

Stop that!! The county will eventually place a lien on the property. If the "keepers" still won't budge, let the county sell it at auction. The OP should get one fifth of the proceeds after the past due taxes are collected. Nobody is the bad guy and the "sellers" still walk away with something.


Maybe I missed it, but has anybody stated why this will not work?

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby Goal33 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:20 pm

2pedals wrote:
Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


Why you are so stunned? Just an suggestion to keep family harmony. If it were me I would not want to have anything to do with it. I am sure under this relationship I would not be able to get an umbrella policy.


I understand what you're saying about the relationship being worth more than the money. Unfortunately, this family is already out of harmony and would be even more so if some siblings get completely screwed out of their share. Maybe the ones that have to lawyer up look like the ones causing the disharmony but from my perspective the ones that can't afford to buy out and are making a sale difficult are the ones in the wrong here.
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:01 pm

FIREchief wrote:
FIREchief wrote:Okay, I've got the answer.

Who is paying the property taxes? I'm guessing one (or all) of the "sellers."

Stop that!! The county will eventually place a lien on the property. If the "keepers" still won't budge, let the county sell it at auction. The OP should get one fifth of the proceeds after the past due taxes are collected. Nobody is the bad guy and the "sellers" still walk away with something.


Maybe I missed it, but has anybody stated why this will not work?


In our locality, at least, there are significant late penalties on real estate taxes. In a high tax area, the past due and currenttaxes could mount up. It also might take a few years and the house is deterioriating and has no insurance.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby BigOil » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:14 pm

This is a kinda funny(not hahah) thread. I think that's because a lot us can relate!!! I can. On and on we go...
I think we all want to make it better & unify the family BUT,
after reasonable conversations have happened (or tried)

Some situations you cannot be fixed without "hurting feelings". Especially in the commercial/business world. This is at its core a commercial-type issue, albeit wrapped in family drama to obscure, and hide the correct way to solve it... SO

1) speak to a local lawyer on partition sale and cost estimate, these are common, pay for that advice
2) forget about family harmony - cruel but true --- this is business transaction, there is not harmony already (it's gone) because
3) cannot cure stupid (or emotional problems-- same result here) ...humankind is what it is...

Kids, sis/bro life ain't fair ... come 'on man. If they grow up, or get a good therapy they'll forgive you.

Every family has some crazy relatives, don't let the inmates run the asylum!!!
Situation will near 100% chance get **worse** by NOT resolving the house. Pull the Band-Aid off now --- Let it heal!!

If the money is material to you, or you or your spouse will harbor resentment ... I would not give it to them.
However giving it to the to the others is a reasonable course of action---the same lawyer would advise how/if you would accomplish that without the cooperation of the other siblings --- probably a quitclaim deed or something for your share.
It's certainly not hard to imagine situations, where simply giving house to the other siblings would be the fair and equitable/moral thing to do --- OP does not sound like that type of thing...

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:38 pm

Situation will near 100% chance get **worse** by NOT resolving the house.


I agree!

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby JGoneRiding » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:05 pm

2pedals wrote:
FIREchief wrote:
delamer wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Really? That is 2 years of college for one of my kids.


Yep, that's just crazy talk. Not many of us that would give away $50K just to avoid a fight.


In the context of this thread it is not crazy talk. The inheritance in the form of an illiquid liability. Attached to it are sentimental feelings. My parents would never want my brothers to fight over an inheritance and lose much of it the legal fees. I would do whatever I could to honor my parents wishes. There has to be way to settle this in a civil manor. Anything else would scar the family forever.


I don't think you are looking at much in legal fees. It's a very straight fwd situation. 3 owners want to sale. You hire a lawyer, judge order sale. It's actually not overly complicated. It's the only option. Besides abandonment. It's a very clean legal option because it has good solid precident so less expensive

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby aristotelian » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:14 pm

FIREchief wrote:
FIREchief wrote:Okay, I've got the answer.

Who is paying the property taxes? I'm guessing one (or all) of the "sellers."

Stop that!! The county will eventually place a lien on the property. If the "keepers" still won't budge, let the county sell it at auction. The OP should get one fifth of the proceeds after the past due taxes are collected. Nobody is the bad guy and the "sellers" still walk away with something.


Maybe I missed it, but has anybody stated why this will not work?


Interesting thought. I would want to make some calls to the county to see how much they would take in extra fines and penalties. It is possible that combined with the hit you would take from auctioning the property as well as depreciation from lack of maintenance, there may be nothing left. In which case you would be just as well off just getting your name off the deed.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby NotWhoYouThink » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:18 pm

dm200 wrote:
FIREchief wrote:
FIREchief wrote:Okay, I've got the answer.

Who is paying the property taxes? I'm guessing one (or all) of the "sellers."

Stop that!! The county will eventually place a lien on the property. If the "keepers" still won't budge, let the county sell it at auction. The OP should get one fifth of the proceeds after the past due taxes are collected. Nobody is the bad guy and the "sellers" still walk away with something.


Maybe I missed it, but has anybody stated why this will not work?


In our locality, at least, there are significant late penalties on real estate taxes. In a high tax area, the past due and currenttaxes could mount up. It also might take a few years and the house is deterioriating and has no insurance.

Plus, houses sold at auction for taxes aren't going to go for top dollar. So after years of waiting, the taxes multiply with interest and penalties, the house actual value deteriorates, and the sales price will likely be low even given the condition.

This might be a reasonable plan for a house that is already worthless, but I can't see the logic of collectively throwing away $250K.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:24 pm

Plus, houses sold at auction for taxes aren't going to go for top dollar. So after years of waiting, the taxes multiply with interest and penalties, the house actual value deteriorates, and the sales price will likely be low even given the condition.


When houses are sold for auction for back taxes, the primary goal is to get the back taxes paid and not maximizing the sale price.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby FIREchief » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:34 pm

aristotelian wrote:
FIREchief wrote:
FIREchief wrote:Okay, I've got the answer.

Who is paying the property taxes? I'm guessing one (or all) of the "sellers."

Stop that!! The county will eventually place a lien on the property. If the "keepers" still won't budge, let the county sell it at auction. The OP should get one fifth of the proceeds after the past due taxes are collected. Nobody is the bad guy and the "sellers" still walk away with something.


Maybe I missed it, but has anybody stated why this will not work?


Interesting thought. I would want to make some calls to the county to see how much they would take in extra fines and penalties. It is possible that combined with the hit you would take from auctioning the property as well as depreciation from lack of maintenance, there may be nothing left. In which case you would be just as well off just getting your name off the deed.


Yep. We really don't have enough facts. This may not be any better than just abandoning the "seller's" share. However, it may be worth looking into as a means for the three sellers to not lose their $150K share. Perhaps if the taxes stop getting paid, the "keepers" will wake up and figure out either they need to pay the entire tax bill (including back taxes) between the two of them, or they need to agree to sell. They seem to be operating more on emotion than logic. Seeing the back taxes due notification and perhaps a third party paying those back taxes and placing a lien on the property (not sure how this all works, and it may vary by state/county) may be what it takes. They should quickly fear that either they are going to lose the house anyway or that they are now going to be the ones getting "screwed" by their three siblings who are no longer kicking in their shares of the property taxes. If I were in this situation, I would at least try to understand how this would work. Some Counties may act quick for unpaid taxes.

Also, the house may already be at or approaching an auction sale situation, due to the deferred maintenance. Let's say it sells for 80% of what it should sell for ($200K), and the auctioneer and sales costs total 10%. That would still leave $36K for the sellers, which isn't as good as $50K, but a lot better than nothing.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby cherijoh » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:41 pm

Silk McCue wrote:Sorry for the situation you find yourself in.

It sounds like those that want to sell have a high level goal and plan. You might want to flesh that out in writing to describe how to get from here to there including potential distribution shares from the sale and a rough timeline. I would ask that those that don't want to sell put forth their plan to deal with this and ask them to address the maintenance issues, lack of insurance, what and when do they expect something to be done with the house and what that something is.

Leaving the house abandoned and uninsured is not a plan but a recipe for financial loss with the value being reduced to a lot.

If this gets you nowhere (likely) at least you will have tried. At that point getting a judge involved is probably the best approach. I'm shocked that the house isn't insured. A lightning strike or arson will wipe out the value of the inheritance that each of you deserve.


No insurance company would insure a house that has been unoccupied for 5 years. If OP's family knew they weren't going to sell immediately they should have rented it out in the interim.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby HomerJ » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:48 pm

2pedals wrote:
Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


Why you are so stunned?


Because you can't see a reason to fight over 50k. It's not that you don't see 50k as a lot of money. That's okay if you wouldn't fight over 50k. But you can't even see anyone else in the world seeing 50k as a lot of money. That's why people are stunned over your response. That's a serious disconnect.

Just an suggestion to keep family harmony. If it were me I would not want to have anything to do with it. I am sure under this relationship I would not be able to get an umbrella policy.


It is a decent suggestion. But you shouldn't have added the last sentence.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby F150HD » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:54 pm

Shackleton wrote:
F150HD wrote:
It's simply crazy that you guys have kept an unoccupied, uninsured house for five years already.


I am curious what the insurance agent for this home says about the house being unoccupied? (despite family being nearby)

https://www.trustedchoice.com/homeowners-insurance/home-coverage-types/vacant-home/

_

Uninsured houses don't have insurance agents or companies that worry about the occupancy status. :D


I didn't say the house was uninsured, someone else did.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby mouses » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:59 pm

I would like to point out a thing here. The people who are saying to go to the mat to get $50,000 (right it will be less than $50,000 and might even be negative if there is an accident) have, I suspect, never been in a situation like the OP's. Those of us who have are saying the enormous stress is not worth it. People have heart attacks over stuff like this.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby deltaneutral83 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:14 pm

mouses wrote:I would like to point out a thing here. The people who are saying to go to the mat to get $50,000 (right it will be less than $50,000 and might even be negative if there is an accident) have, I suspect, never been in a situation like the OP's. Those of us who have are saying the enormous stress is not worth it. People have heart attacks over stuff like this.


I think most people probably would say it's prudent to act with intentionality, one way or the other. Kicking the can down the road for 60 months is beneficial to no one, well except to the people that get to use the house and only pay 20% of the taxes. Force the sell, or give it up, who cares, the 3 "Sells" need to make the move. The 2 "keeps" have a grand situation by having 3 affluent siblings foot 60% of the tax bill. I bet if the OP wanted a key to the house and wanted to spend a few nights there for Christmas or whatever it wouldn't exactly go smoothly with the two "keeps." It's certainly a case study for why you never divide up RE or CRE. I avoid drama with every fiber but I always am fascinated with the fact that it always seems the cash strapped are the ones who are the most sentimental, like the real estate represents a significant portion of their very existence even though it's been 5 years. I truly feel for those souls.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Postby 2pedals » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:29 pm

HomerJ wrote:
2pedals wrote:
Goal33 wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.


Stunned by this response. 50k is material to an individual.


Why you are so stunned?


Because you can't see a reason to fight over 50k. It's not that you don't see 50k as a lot of money. That's okay if you wouldn't fight over 50k. But you can't even see anyone else in the world seeing 50k as a lot of money. That's why people are stunned over your response. That's a serious disconnect.

Just an suggestion to keep family harmony. If it were me I would not want to have anything to do with it. I am sure under this relationship I would not be able to get an umbrella policy.


It is a decent suggestion. But you shouldn't have added the last sentence.



Why not? Without an umbrella policy I would not be able to protect myself from future lawsuits.

Let me ask this question

1) You are given an opportunity to buy a house with 4 of your siblings
2) 2 of your siblings would be willing to sell the investment in the future if it does not work out
3) 2 would never sell the investment making it virtually impossible for you sell the house without significant heart ache in the family
4) The house would never be used except for storage reasons. House is sometimes used for family gatherings but not everyone attends. House is not equally shared. Some get more use out of it than others.
5) Some of your siblings (unequally) will bear the burden of the taxes and maintenance
6) You will expose yourself to future unknown possible liabilities with your family and you would lose your umbrella policy for further possible issues
6) You are required to pay for a share of this opportunity, the opportunity value is 250-300 retail

How much is this opportunity worth to you? How much would you pay for it?

On "paper" this fractional share is worth ~50K. I understand the for some 50k is could be a lot of money and certainty in this context this 1/5 ownership is not worth 50k.


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