Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

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Payoffhouse
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Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:30 pm

Background info:

1. Mom passed away 5 years ago.
2. Mom's house was transferred to all 5 sons/ daughters during probate (father passed away 10 years ago).
3. 5 years later some of us want to sell house while others want to keep house.
4. The siblings who want to keep house do not have the financial means to "buy-out" the other siblings.
5. The house is somewhat in average shape but rapidly deteriorating.
6. The house is paid off.
7. Property taxes are paid but usually late.
8. House not insured as not required once house is paid-off.
9. The house is in Florida.

The siblings who do not want to sell are pretty adamant about it and basically have "over my dead body" attitude. Relationtionship between the siblings have been pretty strained lately.

So my questions is what are my options if I want to sell?

randomguy
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by randomguy » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:41 pm

Talk to a lawyer. You might be able to force the issue (google partition sales).

Is anyone living in the house right now? Often the big issue is that one kid is living in the house rent free and doesn't want to lose their free ride.

Personally, I almost think that parents who leave real estate split up hate their kids.:) I am sure most cases work out but you sure hear about a lot where a lot of hard feelings are generated.

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:47 pm

randomguy wrote:Talk to a lawyer. You might be able to force the issue (google partition sales).

Is anyone living in the house right now? Often the big issue is that one kid is living in the house rent free and doesn't want to lose their free ride.

Personally, I almost think that parents who leave real estate split up hate their kids.:) I am sure most cases work out but you sure hear about a lot where a lot of hard feelings are generated.
No one is living in the house.

123
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by 123 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:48 pm

An attorney would likely have to file a petition with the court and then a judge would have to approve the "partitioning" of the asset. How many of the "sellers" are welling to contribute to "front" the attorney fees? How much is the house/property worth? If no one wants to and has the ability to "front" the attorney fees it's likely nothing is going to change.
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Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:54 pm

123 wrote:An attorney would likely have to file a petition with the court and then a judge would have to approve the "partitioning" of the asset. How many of the "sellers" are welling to contribute to "front" the attorney fees? How much is the house/property worth? If no one wants to and has the ability to "front" the attorney fees it's likely nothing is going to change.
1. Fronting the $$$ for the attorney is not an issue.
2. House is probably worth between $250-$300k

delamer
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by delamer » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:58 pm

What is your siblings' objection to selling the property? Is it sentimental or financial?

Silk McCue
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Silk McCue » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:01 pm

Sorry for the situation you find yourself in.

It sounds like those that want to sell have a high level goal and plan. You might want to flesh that out in writing to describe how to get from here to there including potential distribution shares from the sale and a rough timeline. I would ask that those that don't want to sell put forth their plan to deal with this and ask them to address the maintenance issues, lack of insurance, what and when do they expect something to be done with the house and what that something is.

Leaving the house abandoned and uninsured is not a plan but a recipe for financial loss with the value being reduced to a lot.

If this gets you nowhere (likely) at least you will have tried. At that point getting a judge involved is probably the best approach. I'm shocked that the house isn't insured. A lightning strike or arson will wipe out the value of the inheritance that each of you deserve.

swimfin
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by swimfin » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:03 pm

An attorney must be employed to bring suit.

The suit must be brought in the county where the real estate is located. The attorney should practice in that county.

Ask the attorney if attorney's fees are awarded in Florida for suits such as this one.

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:08 pm

delamer wrote:What is your siblings' objection to selling the property? Is it sentimental or financial?

It's sentimental.

psteinx
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by psteinx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:11 pm

What has the house been used for for the last 5 years? Vacation getaway for the individual families? For all families together (family reunion)? Other? Have the siblings gotten roughly equal use out of the house?

How many of the 5 strongly want to sell, how many to keep, how many ambivalent, and what are their approximate financial situations?

How old are the 5 (roughly), how far do they live from the house in question, and do they have grandkids who get enjoyment out of it?

How has maintenance & upkeep been handled the last 5 years?

Is it a beach house or more of a standard style suburban or what?
Last edited by psteinx on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

2pedals
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by 2pedals » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:13 pm

How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.

aristotelian
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by aristotelian » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:19 pm

Sounds like a truly horrible situation. There is nothing you can do to force a sale without going nuclear and getting lawyers involved. I would adopt the attitude that you are not going to get anything out of this house, and any settlement will be found money. With that attitude you say to the "keep" group, "OK, if you want to keep it I am fine with that. You do the maintenance and handle everything". Hopefully they will eventually come around to selling but not because you forced them.into it.

delamer
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by delamer » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:20 pm

2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.
Really? That is 2 years of college for one of my kids.

delamer
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by delamer » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:26 pm

aristotelian wrote:Sounds like a truly horrible situation. There is nothing you can do to force a sale without going nuclear and getting lawyers involved. I would adopt the attitude that you are not going to get anything out of this house, and any settlement will be found money. With that attitude you say to the "keep" group, "OK, if you want to keep it I am fine with that. You do the maintenance and handle everything". Hopefully they will eventually come around to selling but not because you forced them.into it.
But if the OP is part owner of the property, wouldn't s/he be legally responsible for taxes, maintenance, or an accident on the property?

It is a horrible situation. Given that the attachment is sentimental, maybe it could be satisfied by gifting pieces of furniture or other items to the siblings are so attached?

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:28 pm

Silk McCue wrote:Sorry for the situation you find yourself in.

It sounds like those that want to sell have a high level goal and plan. You might want to flesh that out in writing to describe how to get from here to there including potential distribution shares from the sale and a rough timeline. I would ask that those that don't want to sell put forth their plan to deal with this and ask them to address the maintenance issues, lack of insurance, what and when do they expect something to be done with the house and what that something is.

Leaving the house abandoned and uninsured is not a plan but a recipe for financial loss with the value being reduced to a lot.

If this gets you nowhere (likely) at least you will have tried. At that point getting a judge involved is probably the best approach. I'm shocked that the house isn't insured. A lightning strike or arson will wipe out the value of the inheritance that each of you deserve.
House issues have been brought up before but not in writing. Agree, 1 accident or natural disasters wipes out the house. I have also expressed my concern over not having insurance.

123
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by 123 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:29 pm

While this sounds like a very messy situation at present it will not get any better over time. I would expect that when one of the five present owners passes away it could become even more complicated. If I was one of the five I would probably front the attorney fees to get it done and get rid of my potential personal liability in connection with the property. Or maybe just gift my share to the other four and be out of it. Horrors!
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Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:39 pm

psteinx wrote:What has the house been used for for the last 5 years? Vacation getaway for the individual families? For all families together (family reunion)? Other? Have the siblings gotten roughly equal use out of the house?

How many of the 5 strongly want to sell, how many to keep, how many ambivalent, and what are their approximate financial situations?

How old are the 5 (roughly), how far do they live from the house in question, and do they have grandkids who get enjoyment out of it?

How has maintenance & upkeep been handled the last 5 years?

Is it a beach house or more of a standard style suburban or what?
1. House has just been sitting there, some rooms are used for storage.
2. House is sometimes used for family gatherings but not everyone attends.
3. House is not equally shared. Some get more used out of it than others.
4. 3 want to sell and 2 want to keep.
5. Siblings are in the 30-42 year range.
6. Most of the siblings live close to the house.
7. Grandkids are young, do not use house.
8. Maintenance and upkeep has been handled by everyone.
9. Standard house.

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:41 pm

2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.
Some are not in great financial situation I do not think that is an option.

pizza8822
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by pizza8822 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:42 pm

Perhaps you could suggest they get a loan on the property to pay your share? People with no money can still get a mortgage usually. I'm sure some mortgage broker could be creative for your desires.

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:43 pm

aristotelian wrote:Sounds like a truly horrible situation. There is nothing you can do to force a sale without going nuclear and getting lawyers involved. I would adopt the attitude that you are not going to get anything out of this house, and any settlement will be found money. With that attitude you say to the "keep" group, "OK, if you want to keep it I am fine with that. You do the maintenance and handle everything". Hopefully they will eventually come around to selling but not because you forced them.into it.

That's the thing the siblings who want to keep the house are not doing a good job of maintaining their portion of the house.

aristotelian
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by aristotelian » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:44 pm

Payoffhouse wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.
Some are not in great financial situation I do not think that is an option.
Has the property already been titled to you and the siblings? Is it too late to just disclaim the inheritance and be done with it?

Miriam2
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Miriam2 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:45 pm

Payoffhouse wrote:8. House not insured as not required once house is paid-off.
9. The house is in Florida.
And what happens when the next big hurricane comes??

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:47 pm

pizza8822 wrote:Perhaps you could suggest they get a loan on the property to pay your share? People with no money can still get a mortgage usually. I'm sure some mortgage broker could be creative for your desires.
The siblings who want to keep the house are in bad financial situation. I do not think they would qualify for a mortgage.

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:49 pm

aristotelian wrote:
Payoffhouse wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.
Some are not in great financial situation I do not think that is an option.
Has the property already been titled to you and the siblings? Is it too late to just disclaim the inheritance and be done with it?
Yes the title is in our names.

Payoffhouse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Payoffhouse » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:51 pm

Miriam2 wrote:
Payoffhouse wrote:8. House not insured as not required once house is paid-off.
9. The house is in Florida.
And what happens when the next big hurricane comes??
I have brought this issue up before.

2pedals
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by 2pedals » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:09 pm

Payoffhouse wrote:Background info:

1. Mom passed away 5 years ago.
2. Mom's house was transferred to all 5 sons/ daughters during probate (father passed away 10 years ago).
3. 5 years later some of us want to sell house while others want to keep house.
4. The siblings who want to keep house do not have the financial means to "buy-out" the other siblings.
5. The house is somewhat in average shape but rapidly deteriorating.
6. The house is paid off.
7. Property taxes are paid but usually late.
8. House not insured as not required once house is paid-off.
9. The house is in Florida.

The siblings who do not want to sell are pretty adamant about it and basically have "over my dead body" attitude. Relationtionship between the siblings have been pretty strained lately.

So my questions is what are my options if I want to sell?
To me it seems this will never get better for you unless you abandon all interest in this house. It's already been too long.

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celia
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by celia » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:25 pm

What if someone (either sibling or stranger) gets hurt on the property and sues?

What if one person dies? Does their share go to their spouse or kids or to the other siblings? Is it a situation of last person standing owns the house? (Ie, this favors the younger people)

Have you guys even talked about these things? If so, get it in writing and have everyone sign it.

Those "good memories" may soon turn into a nightmare.

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celia
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by celia » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Payoffhouse wrote:The siblings who want to keep the house are in bad financial situation. I do not think they would qualify for a mortgage.
What if the "sellers" get together and agree to give the "keepers" an extra $10K from the proceeds if they will go along with the sale. Make the offer good for only a short time, say 2 weeks. If need be, raise the incentive a little more. Explain to the "keepers" why it is in their best interest to sell. They can use their money for x, y, z, or save it for retirement or whatever you think will work. Don't make it sound like they are losing something, but gaining something.

Then sell. Your objective would be to get a reasonable amount of money out of the sale without incurring extra expenses and liability. Have one of the "sellers" be in charge of speaking to a realtor on the group's behalf.
Last edited by celia on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aristotelian
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by aristotelian » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:40 pm

Could you sell your share at a discount to the seller group? Wouldn't solve the problem of the house but it would get you out of it.

psteinx
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by psteinx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:48 pm

Significant valuation haircuts for some, but not others, to combat the stubbornness of the the two, does not sound like a recipe for future family harmony to me.

Perhaps you could create a spreadsheet, showing all the costs that *should* be going into the house, leaving it largely vacant:

* Proper maintenance, including yard maintenance and the like
* Insurance
* Property taxes
* Any minimal utilities, services and the like

OP has said insurance hasn't been maintained (but should be), and that maintenance has gone lagging. Perhaps with an itemized breakdown of true costs to keep it in shape and insured, on the one hand, and an estimate of net proceeds of a sale (after expenses) on the other, and per-sibling breakdowns, the recalcitrant sibs might be a little more open minded to a sale...

onthecusp
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by onthecusp » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:26 pm

Clearly family harmony has already broken down. This is on the sibs who can't afford to maintain and yet still don't want to sell.

If married co-owners can divorce and split proceeds or force a buy out, then what is essentially a "partnership" should be able to be dissolved if 3 of the five are in agreement. It can be done as kindly and fairly as possible, but what is possible is limited by the ones who have the desire to keep it and impose all these risks on everyone.

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FIREchief
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by FIREchief » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:37 pm

Okay, I've got the answer.

Who is paying the property taxes? I'm guessing one (or all) of the "sellers."

Stop that!! The county will eventually place a lien on the property. If the "keepers" still won't budge, let the county sell it at auction. The OP should get one fifth of the proceeds after the past due taxes are collected. Nobody is the bad guy and the "sellers" still walk away with something.
Last edited by FIREchief on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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boglephreak
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by boglephreak » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:44 pm

partition sale.

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FIREchief
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by FIREchief » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:53 pm

boglephreak wrote:partition sale.
What exactly is this, and will it provide more cash than my suggestion, to the OP, when all is said and done? (don't forget legal fees)
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FIREchief
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by FIREchief » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:56 pm

delamer wrote:
2pedals wrote:How about gifting your shares? You and your siblings that don't want it can gift shares to the others that want it. I don't see why you would fight over approx. 50k.
Really? That is 2 years of college for one of my kids.
Yep, that's just crazy talk. Not many of us that would give away $50K just to avoid a fight.
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F150HD
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by F150HD » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:05 am

please post an update once you get this figured out. Thanks.

staythecourse
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by staythecourse » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:14 am

Not sure if I missed this, but why hasn't anyone talked to lawyers instead of asking on this board? The legal options will all be determined by how the property is titled, i.e. Joint tenants in common with survivorship rights or not.

Good luck.
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InMyDreams
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by InMyDreams » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:44 am

Arbitration? I've never tried it, but maybe others can comment?

TigerNest
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by TigerNest » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:05 am

What if you take out a line of credit and use that cash to buy out the parties that don't want to own it? The ones that do want to own the house are left with a reasonable mortgage payment.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by basspond » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:02 am

If you go through the legal avenue to arbitrate you know that will bring strife to the family and your relationships will never be the same. Emotional ties to real estate are hard to break especially if your siblings feel it is the only way to keep your parent's memory.

Ask your siblings who want to keep it how do they feel about your grandparent's and your great grandparent's property? Every generation will feel a less attachment to it. The best way to solve this is too keep an open dialogue with everyone. I am sure they feel the same way about you as you do about them. Put yourself in their shoes and they feel you would be willing to sell your family connection for a price.

Work with the siblings who want to keep it to submit a plan for maintenance and use age plan, including how much to charge everyone to use. Hope you can convince them that keeping the house is just as much as a business (less personal) as selling it. And remind them that your parents would not want to see you fight over their property.

Another option is to float the idea that a percentage of the procedes of the sale go to one of your parents' favorite charities.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:10 am

Are you spending your money on property taxes and maintenance? If so, stop. I get the impression that the siblings who can't afford to buy the house probably can't foot 100% of the tax bill either. If you and the other two "sell" siblings stop fronting money, they'll quickly realize that not only can't the two "keep" siblings not afford to keep the house, they can't even afford just the property tax. If a hurricane takes the house in the mean time, well, there ya go.
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riverguy
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by riverguy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:21 am

Go to court and request a partition sale like previously mentioned. There's no way any reasonable judge will side with the two who want to keep it. It's simply crazy that you guys have kept an unoccupied, uninsured house for five years already. Keeping trinkets or smaller stuff for sentimental value is one thing, but a house??? C'mon...

TA_Lurker
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by TA_Lurker » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:37 am

Offer to pay for a therapist or a family counselor to help sort this out. Sounds like some siblings fear the loss of the house means the final loss of your mother.

carolinaman
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by carolinaman » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:43 am

I am not a lawyer but my wife shares ownership of a land parcel with 6 siblings. She handled transfer of one share to her by a brother. The attorney handling it said that any one of the owners could force the sale of the property. A lawyer would have to file suit to force the sale. This is NC law, not sure if FL law is same or not.

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unclescrooge
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by unclescrooge » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:11 am

Get insurance asap.

Hire proprty management company to rent it out.

Since it's paid off it should cash flow.

Keep some of the rent aside for future repairs and maintenance. Split the rest.

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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by RadAudit » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:18 am

Gift your share to a charity and let them force the sale.
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gasdoc
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by gasdoc » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:24 am

unclescrooge wrote:Get insurance asap.

Hire proprty management company to rent it out.

Since it's paid off it should cash flow.

Keep some of the rent aside for future repairs and maintenance. Split the rest.
Good creative thinking, but I doubt this group could work as a partnership in managing the ordeal for long. It would prolong the inevitable sale. I've been through this with DW, and her family. She was a "seller" and just basically stopped paying attention or worrying about it. She paid her share of costs when they asked her for money. Eventually the "keepers" got tired of dealing with it. Emotionally, DW had to just assume the property would be worthless by the time it was sold. As it turned out, it took about 10 years for the property to be put on the market for sale. Now they have a buyer, but the "keepers" don't seem very willing to negotiate on the price. It is not over yet.

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dm200
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:37 am

Example of why iy may be a bad idea to leave house to multiple folks.

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Steelersfan
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by Steelersfan » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:40 am

RadAudit wrote:Gift your share to a charity and let them force the sale.
If you "gift" it to a charity it would actually be a tax deductible donation and would result in tax savings. That's a good thing.

But I think it would be very hard to find a charity who would be willing to step into a situation like this, knowing the future legal cost and possible bad publicity that would ensue. The headline almost writes itself: "Local charity forces sale of home - tears family apart".
Last edited by Steelersfan on Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dm200
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Re: Siblings in disagreement over mom's house.

Post by dm200 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:41 am

How much is 1/5 of the value (deteriorating and at risk) of the house?

Did you receive anythng else from the estate?

Not only are you not receiving any value, you are increasingly at risk by owning.

I would see a lawyer and gift your share to the other siblings. Make sure to remove yourself from any laibility.

At least, then, you cannot lose money in the future.

Be congenial at Thanksgiving and Christmas. Regard the gift as future Christmas gifts to the other siblings.

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