Curious to odd estate question

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
mac808
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by mac808 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:19 pm

Despite all the Bitcoin hype lately this seems to be an effective use case for it. You can use a Bitcoin account to store all value while you're alive (and save/spend as needed). If you keep your password in your head and never write it down, then the moment you die, it's gone forever.

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Tamarind
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Tamarind » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:37 pm

This is awful. However the cryptocurrency approach is the most effective by far. It could be written into the will for the executor to convert the holdings to a relevant cryptocurrency and then destroy all record of the key.

It might be the moral duty of the OP to refuse to provide this advice to the person in question.

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flossy21
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by flossy21 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:08 pm

chinto wrote:Scenario, you want any assets that remain after you die to essentially vaporize so no one (person, institution, Government, Church, Charity) can benefit from them.

In simplistic terms you simply want to burn the pile of assets that represents your estate so no one benefits from the value of your estate. You do not want to give it charity, the Government or anyone, you want your wealth irradiated. Is there a legal mechanism to do so? I know that you legally cannot have money burnt.

BY the way, I did not post this to stir debate. I simply want the answer. If you happen to know for a fact how to go about this I would appreciate the information but I am not interested in debating why someone would want to do this, morality, ethics etc.

Thank you for any consideration you care to afford this inquiry.
He could create a charity that has no beneficiary and only exists to pay its annual fee for existence (like annual 501 fees). He could further create a donor advised fund and move all his trading money there. He could set a date in the future for a trade to liquidate the DAF stocks/bonds/ETF, etc. to cash. The DAF would be only for the charity so the money would essentially just sit there as cash until the 501 fees eventually erode it to nothing.

It would take a while but it would happen and no one would benefit.

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Abe
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Abe » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:16 pm

bengal22 wrote:Convert all of your assets to cash and state in your last will and instructions that you want to be cremated upon death along with all of your cash.
Reminds me of the fellow who told his wife he wanted to take his money with him when he died. At the funeral a friend asked her how she was going to do it. She said she put all his money in the bank and then wrote out a check to her husband and she put the check in the casket.
Slow and steady wins the race.

BanditKing
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by BanditKing » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:17 pm

Put it all on black. If you win, do it again. Repeat until red. Eventually you'll lose and have nothing.

JGoneRiding
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by JGoneRiding » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:20 pm

The government would mildly benefit from the above but not enough to notice (the 501 idea)

Does the crazy dude have not a single living relative? I would think so much as one cousin or nephew no mater how much he could get an excuter to agree to a crazy idea it will get challenged in court. Even then the excuter would need/get like 10% of estate.

And if you launched it into outer space (definite fun idea) the company doing such would benefit and you still have to pay someone to make it happen (unless there really is a second crazy person willing to assume responsibility for fulfilling wishes for free )

Lexi
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Lexi » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:32 pm

My DAF requires specification of what to do with remaining funds when you die. You can specify a charity or a successor agent. If you do neither it goes to the overarching charitable gift fund.

Boglegrappler
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Boglegrappler » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:32 pm

It's worth pointing out that, even if he could convert all of his savings to cash and burn it, that would give a benefit to everyone else's cash, albeit very small when spread over the entire money supply.

Its the opposite situation of someone being able to print their own money, which harms everyone else by devaluing their currency holdings.

It's actually a quite interesting question to consider. Even if you buy something that's worthless from a crooked merchant, well, the merchant would benefit.

I suppose converting the savings into a tangible asset that could be destroyed might come closest, but even that is tricky.

denovo
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by denovo » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:43 pm

I would not facilitate this or assist in this, OP.

deskjockey
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by deskjockey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:52 pm

celia wrote:
deskjockey wrote:Given the stipulations, I would say that Bitcoin would be the best way to "destroy" the portfolio. He could set up a Bitcoin wallet now, memorize the private key, and, right before death comes, liquidate all his holdings and buy Bitcoin, sending it to his private wallet. Once he dies, it would be effectively gone. If he can't time it, he could leave clear instructions in his will to have the portfolio liquidated in the same fashion and the Bitcoin sent to his wallet.
How can the executor do this if he doesn't know the key? :oops:
The executor would have the public key, which is what he would use to send the money to the wallet. In effect, the wallet becomes a black hole--things go in, but can't come out.

chinto
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by chinto » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:13 pm

I am going to relay the crypto currency idea...where the executor would convert all assets into bit coins (or whatever) and then lose the key. That seems like it would satisfy his innate desires and seems relatively simple. He can work out the details. But it appears this would legal and workable.

Thank you very much. It is appreciated by me.

JGoneRiding
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by JGoneRiding » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:28 pm

chinto wrote:I am going to relay the crypto currency idea...where the executor would convert all assets into bit coins (or whatever) and then lose the key. That seems like it would satisfy his innate desires and seems relatively simple. He can work out the details. But it appears this would legal and workable.

Thank you very much. It is appreciated by me.
Just point out he is going to have to pay the executor (no one is going to agree to that for nothing) and you never answered the question about relatives--Anything "crazy" would get challenged in court.

deltaneutral83
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by deltaneutral83 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:28 pm

You are very welcome, please be sure to extend regards to the guy in question, I have laughed my ass off for 15 minutes reading this thread. Especially the shooting it into space. BH does not disappoint.

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celia
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by celia » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:14 pm

Yeah, have the person in question read the thread for herself! Why filter it for her?
JGoneRiding wrote:...you never answered the question about relatives--Anything "crazy" would get challenged in court.
She should disown all her relatives before dying too, just like she is an alien dropped down from space.
Last edited by celia on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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One Ping
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by One Ping » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:15 pm

It's an interesting mind game.

Any idea that includes the word "pay" or "buy" would seem to violate the OP's constraints. Whoever you are paying or buying from benefits!

" . . . so no one (person, institution, Government, Church, Charity) can benefit from them"

Presumably, businesses are included in 'institution'.

Also, any idea (except the bitcoin idea maybe, I don't know enough about that) that includes leaving it to 'rot' in some account seems like it would violate the OP's constraints in that sooner or later somebody (the gov't or the bank or ...) will eventually do something with it and somebody/something will thus eventually benefit in at least some way, if only because they don't have to spend money tracking it anymore.

I think this is much more difficult to do than most responses in this thread assume.
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FelixTheCat
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by FelixTheCat » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:22 pm

All of my ideas come from the movie Brewster's Millions. :D
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chinto
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by chinto » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:45 pm

One Ping wrote:It's an interesting mind game....

I think this is much more difficult to do than most responses in this thread assume.
I think the estate planners he talked to quickly realized this would not be easy. They indicated they did not know a way it could be done. Leave it to the Bogleheads to point to a possible way with Bitcoin or an equivalent there of.

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Abe
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Abe » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:43 pm

Put in you will that, after your death, the executor of your will invite all your friends and family to a party. At the party, have a big bonfire and burn all the money. :happy
Slow and steady wins the race.

DFAMAN
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by DFAMAN » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:50 pm

For those suggesting providing in Will that OP be buried with his cash, or that cash be literally destroyed, there actually is law on that. People have tried, but courts won't allow the "dead hand" of the past to simply destroy property/wealth for the sake of destroying it. If assets remain, they have to go someplace (other than the grave or the incinerator).

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tadamsmar
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by tadamsmar » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:12 pm

There are perhaps some problems with the bitcoin thing.

The executor has to execute the will via the clerk of court and file the taxes. There are inheritance and perhaps estate taxes that would be due.

The estate taxes probably need to be paid before the executor puts the money into the bitcoin account, thereby benefiting the government.

The guy's estate is already in the 6M range, so there may be some estate taxes.

If there are state inheritance taxes, I would imagine the tax collector will be very suspicious of the claim that the private key was lost. This looks like a scheme for some heir to avoid taxes.

Also there may be laws that prevent executors from doing something imprudent like putting all the money in a bitcoin account. The executor could get stopped from carrying out the wishes of the deceased or be in legal trouble if they do carry out the wishes.

Here a discussion of bitcoin and estates that brings up the prudent executor laws/regulations:

http://www.coindesk.com/5-things-bitcoi ... -planning/

Here's a discussion of using bitcoin to avoid inheritance tax:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1793996.40

Some kind of futile charitable trust might be a better way to go.

mnaspbh
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by mnaspbh » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:27 pm

chinto wrote:I think the estate planners he talked to quickly realized this would not be easy. They indicated they did not know a way it could be done. Leave it to the Bogleheads to point to a possible way with Bitcoin or an equivalent there of.
Buying $6M in bitcoins (or any other crypto currency) and then destroying the private key is equivalent to buying $6M in diamonds and burning them. The sellers of the bitcoins or diamonds or whatever still benefit. Likewise, obtaining services, consuming luxuries prior to death, etc., all involve payments to others who will benefit.

With cryptocurrencies, there's always the risk that future developments in technology or mathematics will make it feasible to recover the private key.

There is no way to meet the requirements of the OP as described. If the goal is to "waste" the money with minimal benefits to anyone, there are lots and lots of options as others have pointed out. Spreading the money across as many recipients as feasible would minimize the net benefit to anyone. If the goal is to ensure that the estate's value has a net cost to society, or even to specific institutions, businesses, or individuals, there are plenty of ways to manage that too, but none are appropriate to discuss here.

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David Jay
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by David Jay » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:32 pm

Pity. That is my reaction to this poor, empty heart.

There is not one thing on this planet that he cares enough about to support, beyond himself.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

denovo
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by denovo » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:34 pm

chinto wrote:
One Ping wrote:It's an interesting mind game....

I think this is much more difficult to do than most responses in this thread assume.
I think the estate planners he talked to quickly realized this would not be easy. They indicated they did not know a way it could be done. Leave it to the Bogleheads to point to a possible way with Bitcoin or an equivalent there of.

As one of your posts indicate, if it's just that he hates his relatives , why doesn't he just give it to a charity that does some good things. As others have pointed out, destroying it in some way will most likely be challenged in court, and if the will is tossed out, guess who it goes to, the relatives who will be the beneficiaries by default in the probate laws in pretty much every state. Donating it to a charity will make it much more likely his relatives can't touch it
Last edited by denovo on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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David Jay
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by David Jay » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:37 pm

denovo wrote:As one of your posts indicate, if it's just that he hates his relatives , why doesn't he just give it to a charity that does some good things. As others have pointed out, destroying it in some way will most likely be challenged in court, and if the will is tossed out, guess it who it goes to, the relatives who will be the beneficiaries by default in the probate laws in pretty much every state. Donating it to a charity will make it much more likely his relatives can't touch it
But somebody would benefit. Good might come of it. Can't have that...
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by DomDangelina » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:22 pm

The OP has indicated that he's not interested in any virtue-signaling responses. Why then do they keep coming?
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tadamsmar
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by tadamsmar » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:56 pm

The estate tax exemption is $5.49M.

According to the info given, this guy has 6M. If he wants to avoid giving some to the government, his only choice is to give up the one thing he loves: making money in the stock market.

But I guess he could shovel the excess over to an annuity and keep trading.

Silverado
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Silverado » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:30 pm

DomDangelina wrote:The OP has indicated that he's not interested in any virtue-signaling responses. Why then do they keep coming?
You want people to read the thread and not just comment? Crazy.

If he is able to predict his final day, couldn't he do the bitcoin transfer and then simply die? Tough to do exactly, but at some point he may see the end is so near, time to execute.

I have often wondered what law would be broken with accumulating massive stacks of cash and stashing them and in a wall of a house. Then forty years later someone finds the cash. I mean massive amounts so inflation still leaves plenty. That might be another interesting thought experiment.

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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:03 pm

Silverado wrote:
DomDangelina wrote:The OP has indicated that he's not interested in any virtue-signaling responses. Why then do they keep coming?
You want people to read the thread and not just comment? Crazy.

If he is able to predict his final day, couldn't he do the bitcoin transfer and then simply die? Tough to do exactly, but at some point he may see the end is so near, time to execute.

I have often wondered what law would be broken with accumulating massive stacks of cash and stashing them and in a wall of a house. Then forty years later someone finds the cash. I mean massive amounts so inflation still leaves plenty. That might be another interesting thought experiment.
This isn't really different than stashing money with Bitcoin, and removing money as needed for own purposes, but never telling anyone else about it, especially not about any key or way to get the Bitcoins after one's demise.
No one should "find" the money later, such as with the "hole in the wall" approach.

This seems perfect, except for "not quite" being perfect, to the extent that the request involves being able to continue to trade to see "how much the person can accumulate".
Thi

Usually, nothing's perfect.

In this case, it seems the emphasis is on "NO entity should benefit after one's demise", rather than the "maximize lifetime trading total".
Given that one can't know "the end will be at <date/time>, I'm not sure that *both* of these goals can fully be achieved.

Might one possible compromise be to take out some sort of variable annuity (to keep "trading" somewhat), and stashing the rest in Bitcoin?
The annuity would provide living expenses, while the ongoing remainder gets traded.
[Note: I'm not quite sure if this is how a variable-type annuity would work, *after* being annuitized. If not, this idea won't work anyway.)
If a concern is that the Annuity Company would benefit at the person's demise, we are, I think, back to untraceable Bitcoin.

I don't think there should be much concern about how "vendors/etc., might benefit", because presumably the person is, while alive, purchasing food, rent/buying property and/or cars and clothing, etc.
The concern seems to be with "what happens to the Final Pot".

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CFM300
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by CFM300 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:11 pm

chinto wrote:I am going to relay the crypto currency idea...where the executor would convert all assets into bit coins (or whatever) and then lose the key. That seems like it would satisfy his innate desires and seems relatively simple.
Whenever he sells his investments, he's going to have pay taxes on the gain, correct? I don't see a way to avoid that.

But also, why not liquidate and vaporize now? Yes, I understand that he wants to play the stock market until the very day he dies, but he can do that virtually. Why must he do it in reality, which is what creates the post-death liquidation puzzle? Seems to me that he's creating his own problem.

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ether161
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by ether161 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:59 am

If this man is serious about destroying his wealth, he can't use an estate attorney. With the bitcoin he can just run off with the money and retire. Bitcoin was designed so anyone can run off with the funds if they have the password. If he is serious about destroying his wealth he MUST do it by himself before he dies. No outsider, they can't be trusted to fulfill his will. Go on a nice vacation to Europe and meet with one of the big trading houses, he will be making up about 10% of the days volume on many exchanges so he will want some professional help unloading this amount of assets. Personally I vote gold and bury it. Much less messy and cooler!
Last edited by ether161 on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tadamsmar
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by tadamsmar » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:51 am

ether161 wrote:If this man is serious about destroying his wealth, he can't use an estate attorney. With the bitcoin he can just run off with the money and retire.
Worst than that, and estate executor or trust officer has some prudent management responsibilities under the law. They can't just destroy the money by using a public key to put it in a bitcoin acct with no private key without facing legal jeopardy.

When an executor executes an estate, they have to declare heirs on the forms.

It is more in conformance with the law to destroy your own wealth than to get someone to do it after you die. You do have to avoid being declared incompetent while you are doing it.

The only good solution is the method that billions have used to have no estate when they die: He needs to take steps to become dirt poor now so that he has no estate. Or put the all the money in an annuity. And setting up too large an annuity arguably benefits the annuity provider when you die. So, poverty now is the only option or living on a modest annuity. But that conflicts with his desire to trade stocks.

He could spend his time pretending to play the stock market and keeping records on his pretend profits. That would not benefit anyone but himself.

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tadamsmar
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by tadamsmar » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:12 am

In the OP, you stipulate that we must not talk about why he is doing this.

But, you cannot impose that stipulation on the clerk of court who will oversee the disposition of his estate. The question of why is material to determining if the executor is following the law.

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Abe
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Abe » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:51 am

I think this is an unsolvable problem. I never thought about it, but it looks to me like anytime you destroy an asset someone will benefit from it. I could buy $6 million dollars worth of charcoal and burn it, but the person who sold me the charcoal would have the money. :beer
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ether161
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by ether161 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:15 am

tadamsmar wrote: It is more in conformance with the law to destroy your own wealth than to get someone to do it after you die. You do have to avoid being declared incompetent while you are doing it.
This is the crux of the issue. If you entrust an executor to carry out your wishes, he is either going to to be legally compelled to ignore his wishes or will simply just steal it. Now I'm sure all the lawyers he will meet will promise him his wishes will be fulfilled, but are secretly plotting on how to rob the estate, especially if you're going the untraceable imaginary currency route. It's like giving a random lawyer a bunch of bearer bonds and saying please burn this when I die.

One thing I'm getting from your description is that your friend doesn't want to have anything nice before he dies and just wants to maximize his estate before passing (I'm assuming terminal or suicide). If he is serious and doesn't secretly want to get robbed after he dies, he's gonna have to do it himself.
Thank you for sharing his story, may he find peace at the end and I hope he isn't robbed by a lawyer. That would be the ultimate irony.

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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:06 pm

livesoft wrote:Excellent answer as usual from Gill.
+1

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bengal22
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by bengal22 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:01 pm

Abe wrote:
bengal22 wrote:Convert all of your assets to cash and state in your last will and instructions that you want to be cremated upon death along with all of your cash.
Reminds me of the fellow who told his wife he wanted to take his money with him when he died. At the funeral a friend asked her how she was going to do it. She said she put all his money in the bank and then wrote out a check to her husband and she put the check in the casket.
Love that joke.

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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by inbox788 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:11 pm

flossy21 wrote:
chinto wrote:Scenario, you want any assets that remain after you die to essentially vaporize so no one (person, institution, Government, Church, Charity) can benefit from them.

In simplistic terms you simply want to burn the pile of assets that represents your estate so no one benefits from the value of your estate. You do not want to give it charity, the Government or anyone, you want your wealth irradiated. Is there a legal mechanism to do so? I know that you legally cannot have money burnt.

BY the way, I did not post this to stir debate. I simply want the answer. If you happen to know for a fact how to go about this I would appreciate the information but I am not interested in debating why someone would want to do this, morality, ethics etc.

Thank you for any consideration you care to afford this inquiry.
He could create a charity that has no beneficiary and only exists to pay its annual fee for existence (like annual 501 fees). He could further create a donor advised fund and move all his trading money there. He could set a date in the future for a trade to liquidate the DAF stocks/bonds/ETF, etc. to cash. The DAF would be only for the charity so the money would essentially just sit there as cash until the 501 fees eventually erode it to nothing.

It would take a while but it would happen and no one would benefit.
Someone always benefits, either directly or indirectly. The company that makes the 501 fees clearly benefits. The DAF itself makes money having AUM (quite a bit IMO). Charities benefit when DAF is required to dole out cash (most/none have so far, but may need to if this odd idea were ever to become popular). And depending on how the monies were invested, active funds would benefit, or more monies would be added to the inactive taking us a tiny bit closer to the day when too many people are invested in passive funds and the catastrophe that ensues. Someone, maybe short sellers, may be the beneficiaries. Change is inevitable and someone benefits from the status quo and someone from the change.
BanditKing wrote:Put it all on black. If you win, do it again. Repeat until red. Eventually you'll lose and have nothing.
Why not just write a check to the casino?

infotrader
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by infotrader » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:21 pm

I wondered if any one has mentioned earlier.

For me, the easiest and quickest way to send money to feds is to burn dollar bills. That amount has been effectively taken out of circulation, so the issuer benefits.

You need to physically destroy some properties to annihilate your wealth, but I am not sure if it is not a crime of burning down your own house. Then again, I think someone will benefit from it.

infotrader
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Re: Curious to odd estate question

Post by infotrader » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:27 pm

This is more like a philosophical question now. I honestly cannot answer it, since I cannot find a way that satisfies the requirement of benefitting no one.

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