IRS says I owe..I don't

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fishboat
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IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Thu May 18, 2017 5:57 pm

Just opened a letter from the IRS..they think I owe income tax on $13k for 2015.

I did two back door Roth conversions in Feb 2015 for 2014 & 2015, $6500 each year. The non-deductible $13k (after tax$) went into a new/zero balance t-ira account in Vanguard. The t-IRA was funded on a Monday morning and the Roth conversions were done 24 hours later via two conversions, one each for '14 & '15.

This was the first and last back door Roths I've done. (I had six months of severance pay in 2016 and was able to do a direct roth contribution, then retired on Dec 31st.) I tend to research things to death and believe the process and reporting was done correctly, form 8606 was submitted..but... I may have made an error someplace..or an error could have happened in turbo tax, or at vanguard..or there may be an error within the IRS.

I haven't started digging into this yet...basically the IRS says I have $13k of unreported income for 2015. I'm assuming they think I had a t-ira distribution of $13k in 2015 and owe tax on that. In reality, I contributed $13k after tax money(non-deductible) to a t-ira and then converted it to two years of roth iras the next day.

Many here are well-versed in this process. Does anyone have an idea of the most likely root of the confusion? And how to unwind/correct it? At least I can start with the most likely root cause first...thx.

livesoft
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by livesoft » Thu May 18, 2017 6:05 pm

Did the IRS give you a phone number to call?
This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.

FactualFran
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by FactualFran » Thu May 18, 2017 6:06 pm

You stated that you submitted Form 8606. If you submitted them separately, rather than with the return, the IRS may have not associated each with the correct return. Contact the IRS and ask if the return they have on record for you for each of those two years includes a Form 8606.
Last edited by FactualFran on Thu May 18, 2017 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spirit Rider
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by Spirit Rider » Thu May 18, 2017 6:07 pm

Did you have any pre-tax IRA balances (traditional, SEP IRA or SIMPLE IRA)? All IRA accounts are treated as one. Any pre-tax balances would be included in pro-rata Roth conversions.

Did you properly complete Form 8606 to report your $13K in non-deductible contributions and showing no/minimal tax liaiblity from the Roth conversion?

P.S. I love it. Three responses each one minute apart 6:05. 6:06 and 6:07.

chuckb84
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Location: New Mexico

Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by chuckb84 » Thu May 18, 2017 6:37 pm

I haven't been in your exact situation, but the IRS has several times sent me letters from their "automated under-reporter" system. Once, they were partly right and partly wrong, and the last time, they were just flat wrong.

In the first case, I sent them a letter (certified) that said, you're partly right and I owe you SOME money, but not what you said. Their reply, basically, "Okay, you're right."

In the second case, I just called them and said "You're wrong". They said, "Okay, thanks for the clarification, we'll send you a letter acknowledging that you're right and we were wrong."

So, send a letter, with supporting documents. They will almost certainly just agree with you, if you have your facts straight.

fishboat
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Thu May 18, 2017 6:49 pm

livesoft wrote:Did the IRS give you a phone number to call?
No number to discuss it. Just a fax number to send docs to and a number to access forms.
Spirit Rider wrote:Did you have any pre-tax IRA balances (traditional, SEP IRA or SIMPLE IRA)? All IRA accounts are treated as one. Any pre-tax balances would be included in pro-rata Roth conversions.

Nope..the pre-tax IRA was opened for this purpose. The only other acct I have at VG is a Roth.

Did you properly complete Form 8606 to report your $13K in non-deductible contributions and showing no/minimal tax liaiblity from the Roth conversion?

I believe I did..though I'll have to go back and verify. I researched all this quite a bit before pulling the trigger.

P.S. I love it. Three responses each one minute apart 6:05. 6:06 and 6:07. No kidding heh? Pretty amazing.

chuckb84 wrote:I haven't been in your exact situation, but the IRS has several times sent me letters from their "automated under-reporter" system.
Yeah..what I got was a machine letter. I like the responses they gave you..hope I get the same.

retiredjg
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by retiredjg » Thu May 18, 2017 6:57 pm

There would have to be two forms 8606. One to file with your 2014 taxes and one to file with your 2015 taxes.

The 2014 form would only document the $6,500 non-deductible contribution. The 2015 form would document the $6,500 non-deductible contribution for 2015 (on the front) AND the conversion(s) of $13k to Roth (on the back).

I'm thinking you didn't do the Form 8606 for 2015. It is the easiest explanation for how they say you own tax on exactly $13k.

fishboat
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Thu May 18, 2017 7:13 pm

retiredjg wrote:There would have to be two forms 8606. One to file with your 2014 taxes and one to file with your 2015 taxes.

The 2014 form would only document the $6,500 non-deductible contribution. The 2015 form would document the $6,500 non-deductible contribution for 2015 (on the front) AND the conversion(s) of $13k to Roth (on the back).

I'm thinking you didn't do the Form 8606 for 2015. It is the easiest explanation for how they say you own tax on exactly $13k.
Yah..it's for $13k exactly. It has to be associated with the 2x$6500 contribution/conversion. This sounds like a good thread to pull and easy to check..cool..thx.

TIAX
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by TIAX » Thu May 18, 2017 7:28 pm

Write a letter and include your forms 8606 and IRA contribution and Roth conversion confirmations.

daveydoo
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by daveydoo » Thu May 18, 2017 7:37 pm

TIAX wrote:Write a letter and include your forms 8606 and IRA contribution and Roth conversion confirmations.
This. I've had a couple of these over the past decade (not for this precise discrepancy) and I've just sent a very detailed and comprehensive cover letter and all the requested documentation. It's always been fine. The first one was stressful only because it's the IRS -- not because of any wrongdoing. By the second one, I just assumed that these things will show up every few years for me.

maywood
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by maywood » Thu May 18, 2017 7:47 pm

>I've had a couple of these over the past decade (not for this precise discrepancy) and I've just sent a very detailed and comprehensive cover letter and all the requested documentation. It's always been fine. The first one was stressful only because it's the IRS -- not because of any wrongdoing. By the second one, I just assumed that these things will show up every few years for me.

Same here. I think I've had 3 in the past 30 years. If you're in the right, there's nothing to worry about. Just send in a detailed explanation with backup documents. Every time they have sent me a nice letter stating my situation has been resolved and no further action is needed on my part.

maywood

Katietsu
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by Katietsu » Thu May 18, 2017 9:45 pm

Get out your copies of your 2014 and 2015 forms 8606. Part 1 should be filled completed on both years and part 2 should be on 2015.

You will need to respond to the letter you received. This response should include one or both form 8606 . If your originals are correct, you will just include copies. The alternative situation is that the originals are incorrect. You will need to complete correct forms to include in that case.

fishboat
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Fri May 19, 2017 6:07 am

Sounds like a plan folks..documentation and a letter. I have the former and can write the latter...with that, I'm sure they'll say, "never mind.." 20+ degrees cooler here than yesterday..that makes today a good time to dig into this.

Thanks to all for the help!

jebmke
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by jebmke » Fri May 19, 2017 6:45 am

fishboat wrote:Sounds like a plan folks..documentation and a letter. I have the former and can write the latter...with that, I'm sure they'll say, "never mind.." 20+ degrees cooler here than yesterday..that makes today a good time to dig into this.

Thanks to all for the help!
Make sure you send your docs certified or other POD method. The IRS loses stuff from time to time. It took me over a year to clear an inquiry once because they lost my entire file.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

TIAX
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by TIAX » Fri May 19, 2017 9:14 am

jebmke wrote:
fishboat wrote:Sounds like a plan folks..documentation and a letter. I have the former and can write the latter...with that, I'm sure they'll say, "never mind.." 20+ degrees cooler here than yesterday..that makes today a good time to dig into this.

Thanks to all for the help!
Make sure you send your docs certified or other POD method. The IRS loses stuff from time to time. It took me over a year to clear an inquiry once because they lost my entire file.
Actually, the IRS provides a fax number for responding to these notices and that's the best way to respond.

jebmke
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by jebmke » Fri May 19, 2017 9:53 am

I prefer to have POD. Also, my responses have been on the large side (all docs supporting Schedule A and Form 8889) so faxing is cumbersome.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

fishboat
Posts: 447
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Fri May 19, 2017 9:57 am

TIAX wrote: Actually, the IRS provides a fax number for responding to these notices and that's the best way to respond.
I have no land line nor fax..but maybe my bank can handle it.

Overall..I've pulled up all the docs and talked with Vanguard(they notify the IRS of both the ira distribution and roth conversion). I submitted the 8606 forms for both 2014 & 2015. Part I on both forms were filled in with $6500, however Part II on the 2015 8606 is blank, indicating no roth conversion was done. Looks like the root of the issue. I use TurboTax and, as I remember..vaguely, ..it's problematic to get it to understand a roth conversion.

In any event, I think I've found the root cause. I have all the statements showing the paper trail from my checking acct to t-ira to roth ira all in a two day period.

Again..thx to all. I'll find a fax or send snail mail via certified post.

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BolderBoy
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by BolderBoy » Fri May 19, 2017 9:59 am

retiredjg wrote:There would have to be two forms 8606. One to file with your 2014 taxes and one to file with your 2015 taxes.
I agree with this. You needed to send in two, separate 8606s with the correct #s on each.
“Where you stand, depends on where you sit” - Rufus Miles | "Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities"

Easy Rhino
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by Easy Rhino » Fri May 19, 2017 12:31 pm

is this coming from an audit office in austin (not sure if the IRS has others)? I helped my in laws with a snafu a year or two ago, and be ready for really long delay times. They sent a response in 60 or 90 days, saying that they hadn't yet reviewed it. So it took months for the real response. And there was some back and forth so it took a very long time.

mikep
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by mikep » Fri May 19, 2017 1:19 pm

Did you include a statement with your return about the conversion?

I didn't and the same thing happened to me. I put a statement, but for the following year as that's when I did the actual recharacterization.

I put all of this in a letter, mailed back to the return address of the CP2000 notice and it all resolved in a few weeks.

ICMoney
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by ICMoney » Fri May 19, 2017 1:47 pm

fishboat wrote:
TIAX wrote: Actually, the IRS provides a fax number for responding to these notices and that's the best way to respond.
I have no land line nor fax..but maybe my bank can handle it.

Overall..I've pulled up all the docs and talked with Vanguard(they notify the IRS of both the ira distribution and roth conversion). I submitted the 8606 forms for both 2014 & 2015. Part I on both forms were filled in with $6500, however Part II on the 2015 8606 is blank, indicating no roth conversion was done. Looks like the root of the issue. I use TurboTax and, as I remember..vaguely, ..it's problematic to get it to understand a roth conversion.

In any event, I think I've found the root cause. I have all the statements showing the paper trail from my checking acct to t-ira to roth ira all in a two day period.

Again..thx to all. I'll find a fax or send snail mail via certified post.
Do you have a gmail account? You can use HelloFax to fax scanned documents on your computer, which I think is free (or used to be) with gmail.

FactualFran
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by FactualFran » Fri May 19, 2017 1:50 pm

Check what is on your copies of Form 8606 that you submitted to the IRS. Also, check that the values on lines 8 and 10 of Form 8606 are included in the appropriate lines of Form 1040, Form 1040A, or Form 1040NR.

Based on what you wrote in the opening post, for both 2014 and 2015 the only non-blank lines of Form 8606 should be

Code: Select all

 1 6500. (Nondeductible contributions for year)
 3 6500. (sum of lines 1 and 2)
 5 6500. (line 3 minus line 4)
 6    0. (traditional IRA value at end of year)
 8 6500. (conversion to Roth IRA; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15a)
 9 6500. (sum of lines 6, 7, and 8)
10 1.000 (line 5 divided by line 9)
11 6500. (line 8 times line 10)
13 6500. (sum of lines 11 and 12)
14    0. (line 13 minus line 3)
16 6500. (from line 8)
17 6500. (from line 11)
18    0. (line 16 minus line 17; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15b)

MarkNYC
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by MarkNYC » Fri May 19, 2017 3:06 pm

FactualFran wrote: Based on what you wrote in the opening post, for both 2014 and 2015 the only non-blank lines of Form 8606 should be

Code: Select all

 1 6500. (Nondeductible contributions for year)
 3 6500. (sum of lines 1 and 2)
 5 6500. (line 3 minus line 4)
 6    0. (traditional IRA value at end of year)
 8 6500. (conversion to Roth IRA; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15a)
 9 6500. (sum of lines 6, 7, and 8)
10 1.000 (line 5 divided by line 9)
11 6500. (line 8 times line 10)
13 6500. (sum of lines 11 and 12)
14    0. (line 13 minus line 3)
16 6500. (from line 8)
17 6500. (from line 11)
18    0. (line 16 minus line 17; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15b)
I don't believe the amounts above are correct. Since both $6,500 conversions were done in Feb 2015, the Form 8606 for 2015 should show $6,500 on lines 1 and 2. All other $6,500 amounts listed above for 2015 should be $13,000.

Since there were no conversions done in 2014, the Form 8606 for 2014 should show $6,500 on lines 1, 3, and 4 only.

retiredjg
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by retiredjg » Fri May 19, 2017 3:36 pm

fishboat wrote:...however Part II on the 2015 8606 is blank, indicating no roth conversion was done. Looks like the root of the issue.
That would explain the letter they sent you. If you can't make turbotax do it right, just do it in pencil and send it in.

FactualFran
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by FactualFran » Fri May 19, 2017 3:50 pm

MarkNYC wrote: I don't believe the amounts above are correct. Since both $6,500 conversions were done in Feb 2015, the Form 8606 for 2015 should show $6,500 on lines 1 and 2. All other $6,500 amounts listed above for 2015 should be $13,000.

Since there were no conversions done in 2014, the Form 8606 for 2014 should show $6,500 on lines 1, 3, and 4 only.
What I posted was based on a misreading of the sentence in the opening post of: "I did two back door Roth conversions in Feb 2015 for 2014 & 2015, $6500 each year." I took that to mean a back door Roth contribution done each year.

The Form 8606 for 2014 would be:

Code: Select all

 1  6500. (Nondeductible contributions for year)
 3  6500. (sum of lines 1 and 2)
 4  6500. (contribution for 2014 made in 2015)
14  6500. (line 13 minus line 3)
Form 8606 for 2015 would be:

Code: Select all

 1  6500. (Nondeductible contributions for year)
 2  6500. (IRS basis from previous year)
 3 13000. (sum of lines 1 and 2)
 5 13000. (line 3 minus line 4)
 6     0. (traditional IRA value at end of year)
 8 13000. (conversion to Roth IRA; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15a)
 9 13000. (sum of lines 6, 7, and 8)
10 1.000  (line 5 divided by line 9)
11 13000. (line 8 times line 10)
13 13000. (sum of lines 11 and 12)
14     0. (line 13 minus line 3)
16 13000. (from line 8)
17 13000. (from line 11)
18    0. (line 16 minus line 17; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15b)
The approrpriate lines of Form 1040, Form 1040A, or Form 1040NR for 2005 would include the values from lines 8 and 18 of Form 8606.

inbox788
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by inbox788 » Fri May 19, 2017 5:57 pm

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/get-transcript

Get a tax transcript. You can sign up online and if you pass the tests, get almost immediate access. If not, you have to wait for a code to be mailed to you, which I had to do. Here's part of mine:
Form 8606--Nondeductible IRAs
(Occurrence #: 2)

SPOUSE INDICATOR:............................................................5
TAXABLE NONDEDUCTIBLE CONTRIBUTIONS:.....................................$0.00
TOTL AMT IRA CNVRTD TO ROTH IRA:.....................................$5,500.00
IRA BASIS BEFORE CONVERSION:.........................................$5,500.00
TAXABLE AMOUNT OF CONVERSION:............................................$0.00
ROTH IRA BASIS BEFORE CONVERSION:........................................$0.00
TRADITIONAL, SEP AND SIMPLE IRA DISTRIBUTIONS:...........................$0.00
It might give you the information you need to help correct the problem.

fishboat
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Sat May 20, 2017 10:30 am

ICMoney wrote:
Do you have a gmail account? You can use HelloFax to fax scanned documents on your computer, which I think is free (or used to be) with gmail.
Interesting..I do have a gmail account, but wasn't aware of that option. A scanner I have..this sounds like the way to go. thx!

fishboat
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Sat May 20, 2017 10:47 am

Thanks to those posting the line by line entries..this is really helpful. I didn't realize filling in the form 8606 is a whole topic unto itself...after some searching here, it seems to be. Turbo Tax definitely hosed up the form. My fault as I didn't physically check how it filled it out. My first crack at correcting both forms (following? the 8606 instructions) lead me to chasing my tail and owing tax on $13K...which is where I started. The posted line entries above, and some examples I found on the web, are clearing the fog.

For clarity sake...on Mar 9, 2015 I did t-ira contribution for both 2014 & 2015, labeled-designated as such, into a new/empty IRA account. I then did a conversion for each to a roth-ira 24 hours after the t-ira acct was funded. The *for* and *in* terminology with respect to year makes things for difficult..but it's what I have, so I'll need to fix it.

retiredjg
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by retiredjg » Mon May 22, 2017 11:08 am

fishboat, since you feel like it was TT that messed up your Form 8606, see if the post by Chip on this thread might clear things up for you.

According to Chip, you can think you entered the conversion step right but it is possible to answer one of the questions wrong and that results in nothing on lines 16 - 18 which is what you have reported.

fishboat
Posts: 447
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Mon May 22, 2017 2:41 pm

retiredjg wrote:fishboat, since you feel like it was TT that messed up your Form 8606, see if the post by Chip on this thread might clear things up for you.

According to Chip, you can think you entered the conversion step right but it is possible to answer one of the questions wrong and that results in nothing on lines 16 - 18 which is what you have reported.
retiredjg, Thank you for the follow-up. I just took a peek at the forum and ran across Chip's thread. It did look quite familiar. In my case, the 2015 BDR was the first and last time I did this (now retired and BDR's are all but a memory)..so whether I messed up or TT did is academic at this point. Having developed and user-proofed a few software systems during my career..if the TT interface doesn't make the reporting process pretty much dead-simple and clear, then they have some work to do, as that's sort of their function and what they get paid for. In the end, any error in my 1040 submission is my fault, as I'm ultimately responsible. The path to fix things is now clear thanks to you and others on the forum..many thx.

fishboat
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Thu May 25, 2017 9:18 am

FactualFran wrote:
The Form 8606 for 2014 would be:

Code: Select all

 1  6500. (Nondeductible contributions for year)
 3  6500. (sum of lines 1 and 2)
 4  6500. (contribution for 2014 made in 2015)
14  6500. (line 13 minus line 3)
Form 8606 for 2015 would be:

Code: Select all

 1  6500. (Nondeductible contributions for year)
 2  6500. (IRS basis from previous year)
 3 13000. (sum of lines 1 and 2)
 5 13000. (line 3 minus line 4)
 6     0. (traditional IRA value at end of year)
 8 13000. (conversion to Roth IRA; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15a)
 9 13000. (sum of lines 6, 7, and 8)
10 1.000  (line 5 divided by line 9)
11 13000. (line 8 times line 10)
13 13000. (sum of lines 11 and 12)
14     0. (line 13 minus line 3)
16 13000. (from line 8)
17 13000. (from line 11)
18    0. (line 16 minus line 17; ALSO include on Form 1040 line 15b)
The approrpriate lines of Form 1040, Form 1040A, or Form 1040NR for 2005 would include the values from lines 8 and 18 of Form 8606.
I'm just finishing this up..perfect. Thank you Fran!

RustyShackleford
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Location: NC

Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by RustyShackleford » Thu May 25, 2017 10:36 pm

TIAX wrote: Actually, the IRS provides a fax number for responding to these notices and that's the best way to respond.
I simply phoned them (800-number in the letter). Half-hour or so of saying the same thing (over and over again) to a pleasant but perhaps not-the-brightest bulb agent, and she finally said "ok, I'm adjusting the numbers, the amount you owe is now zero". She said I'd receive a letter in 4-6 weeks confirming this; I guess I'll be singing a different tune if that letter never arrives :-(

Mine was a completely rechacterization of a Roth conversion, that I did the following year (the year I filed). There are zillions of reports of similar difficulties reported elsewhere at BH and also at Fairmark.

fishboat
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by fishboat » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:58 pm

OP here..just closing the loop. I rec'd a letter today from the IRS. After reviewing the documentation I sent, they stated the issue is now closed with $0 owed.

Thanks again to all that helped point me down the right the path & proper 8606 entries to resolved their questions.

retiredjg
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by retiredjg » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:01 pm

Glad to hear it all worked out. :happy

Chip
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Re: IRS says I owe..I don't

Post by Chip » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:44 am

Thanks for following up, and congrats on getting it resolved.

I think 2.5 months is actually a pretty quick response from the IRS.

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