Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

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jumppilot
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Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by jumppilot » Sat May 13, 2017 9:32 pm

I've recently been thinking a lot about our future income needs versus what we are contributing to our retirement accounts.

My wife and I contributed $45,000, which includes employer contributions, to our retirement accounts last year. Based on my financial analysis, we are saving way too much in tax-deferred accounts and can dial that down a bit to take care of today's needs. A friend of ours recently died young, which solidified our thought process.

As a result, I set my 401k contributions to zero ($18,000 last year) so that we can aggressively pay off a rental property. Once the property is paid off we will re-evaluate. Perhaps some of that money will go to a 529, perhaps I'll use the proceeds of that rental to aggressively pay off rental #2. Perhaps I'll get a new car.

It was a tough decision to set my contribution rate to zero as, like most people on this board, I've been in a save save save mindset since I was in my 20s.

But I've realized I also need to live for today and as long as forward progress is made (pay off rentals in my case), there are many roads to Dublin.

Has anyone else committed the cardinal sin of dialing down tax-deferred savings?

Ostentatious
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Ostentatious » Sat May 13, 2017 10:27 pm

Are you missing employer match by dialing down? Why don't you contribute to just get employer match instead not contributing at all? Also it doesn't seem like by dialing down you're solving the problem of your fears of dying young and leaving all the savings behind because paying off the rentals is a form of investment and you can still die young and leave the rentals for someone else to enjoy. Do you have any kids? If you do, then you might want to think about your investments form that perspective in the sense that if you were to die young, they get to be taken care of with all the money you've saved. No one can predict the future. We can only plan and hope.

avalpert
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by avalpert » Sat May 13, 2017 11:05 pm

While I can see dialing down your savings for retirement I would look closely if reducing your tax-deferral is the best way to accomplish it - it isn't like the place you want to increase spending is in payments to Uncle Sam. You should think of your 401k as a tax-management tool as well as retirement savings vehicle.

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ofcmetz
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by ofcmetz » Sat May 13, 2017 11:58 pm

It's hard to respond without knowing your income. If you make $90,000 and are saving $45,000 then yeah that's probably a bit much. If you are saving $45,000 off of a $200,000 income, well that's completely different. I've thought about decreasing my retirement saving to pay off my house, but using that tax advantaged space just makes so much more sense to me. If you are reducing the saving amount to pay for some one time experiences like travel then I could understand it more.

I really don't feel like my retirement savings hurt anything as my loved ones get that money if I expire before my expiration date.
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WolfgangPauli
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by WolfgangPauli » Sun May 14, 2017 6:14 am

Need a lot more information like your annual salary, how much debt and how much you already have saved in retirement. Having said that, here are some things to think about:

1. Remember, you can always borrow while you are working - no one will loan you money when you retire so if I were going to "over do it" in one category (current needs v. retirement) I would overdo the savings for retirement.

2. You say you have a mortgage on a second home. Not sure that makes sense. A lot of people I know are house rich and cash poor. Thank God my wife stopped me from doing it and as I look back, I realize, a second home (even a rental) would have been a drag on my savings.

3. Don't ever miss your company match - free money.

4. Depending on your tax bracket, that deferral, relative to what you will pay later, is worth a lot of money.

I have taken the other approach, I max out all my deferred savings first - no matter what - then I do other things.
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gouverneur
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by gouverneur » Sun May 14, 2017 7:58 am

I have not dialed down yet but understand the perspective. My wife and I are around 30 and saved heavily in higher-paying private sector jobs before just switching to government this year. If we work until our mid-50s, i.e., full retirement age, the basic benefit pension alone is more than our current expenses. Combined with our retirement savings and taking into account eventually getting some payments from SS, at our current rate we in theory would have spending capacity of double or more current spending. Under those circumstances I've realized it doesn't make sense to focus too much on amping up our savings rate, and although we're pretty naturally frugal about most things we're very happy now to splurge on trips to major events, to see friends and family, etc.

Knowing that we don't have to increase savings rate actually, ironically, makes it easier mentally to think about either increasing or decreasing savings in the future. If we don't see more worth spending on, then we'll happily bank future salary increases in investments until we do find something worth the money. If we see something worth spending on, we'll spend rather than save for the sake of saying, "Now we're up to a 40% or 50% savings rate."

I'd echo the thought on claiming tax advantages to the extent you can, and particularly if there's a company match in your 401k. It sounds like you're trading 1 savings vehicle (investment account) for another (paying down a mortgage). With the mortgage, your implicit return is the interest rate (and with mortgage interest deduction taken into account). With the account, your return is the market return plus whatever tax advantage you get from deferral. I'd think about what course of action that comparison favors.

SGM
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by SGM » Sun May 14, 2017 8:14 am

I found tax advantaged accounts to be very advantageous. I maxed 401ks and added to non-deductible tIRAs. Later I did back door Roth IRAs. When I paid off my mortgage early I did it out of a taxable account. Later when income went down after retirement I converted the traditional accounts. Are you able to take your interest payments as deductions against rental income? We have rental property and cannot deduct all expenses, but expect to recover some of this when property is sold someday.

Deductions for tax advantaged accounts allowed us to invest more in taxable too.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by EnjoyIt » Sun May 14, 2017 8:52 am

SGM wrote:I found tax advantaged accounts to be very advantageous. I maxed 401ks and added to non-deductible tIRAs. Later I did back door Roth IRAs. When I paid off my mortgage early I did it out of a taxable account. Later when income went down after retirement I converted the traditional accounts. Are you able to take your interest payments as deductions against rental income? We have rental property and cannot deduct all expenses, but expect to recover some of this when property is sold someday.

Deductions for tax advantaged accounts allowed us to invest more in taxable too.
We have saved very aggressively over the last 8 years and now find ourselves at 40 years old at about 75% of a 4% withdrawal rate that excludes mortgage payments (we will be debt free when we retire.) Without adding a single dollar our investments should grow way past our current spending. Because of that we will start decreasing our savings in 2018 and start increasing our luxury spending to keep up with the increasing growth of investments. Might as well enjoy some of that hard earned money.
Last edited by EnjoyIt on Sun May 14, 2017 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

goingup
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by goingup » Sun May 14, 2017 8:53 am

jumppilot wrote:As a result, I set my 401k contributions to zero ($18,000 last year) so that we can aggressively pay off a rental property.
At first glance it looks like you dialed back too far!

If you forego that tax-deferred space it's lost forever. Have you considered contributing at least to get any match?

letsgobobby
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by letsgobobby » Sun May 14, 2017 8:58 am

are there some numbers between 0 and 45,000?

TheGipper
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by TheGipper » Sun May 14, 2017 9:05 am

I would continue to max out 401k

If you were comparing paying off rental mortgage vs a 457b or cash balance plan, tougher call.

Is your rental property producing a net gain? Will paying off your rental mortgage leave you with enough depreciation, mortgage interest, and other expenses to offset rental income?

As others have said, much depends on the extra tax hit and your income level.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sun May 14, 2017 1:21 pm

No, but I don't have a total savings target. My method is to put 30% into my 401(k) and max out catch-up (because all that I can put it). I also do the Roth IRA for the year. After that, I spend what I spend. Then the extra goes into taxable investing as it accumulates (or when I get around to it).
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epictetus
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by epictetus » Sun May 14, 2017 1:40 pm

if the stock market goes down 50% and stays there awhile that could change calculations re: how much is needed, how long it will last, etc.
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frugalecon
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by frugalecon » Sun May 14, 2017 1:56 pm

I have had similar thoughts. With pessimistic return assumptions (3% real in an 80:20 portfolio), our retirement income will be approximately the same as current income (both real after tax), though our mortgage will be retired. But every year's tax deferred space is perishable, in the sense that it is "use it or lose it." I have decided not to revise the savings plan until we are at 100% of target. Just too many uncertainties.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sun May 14, 2017 2:18 pm

jumppilot wrote:I've recently been thinking a lot about our future income needs versus what we are contributing to our retirement accounts.

My wife and I contributed $45,000, which includes employer contributions, to our retirement accounts last year. Based on my financial analysis, we are saving way too much in tax-deferred accounts and can dial that down a bit to take care of today's needs. A friend of ours recently died young, which solidified our thought process.

As a result, I set my 401k contributions to zero ($18,000 last year) so that we can aggressively pay off a rental property.

It was a tough decision to set my contribution rate to zero as, like most people on this board, I've been in a save save save mindset since I was in my 20s.

But I've realized I also need to live for today and as long as forward progress is made (pay off rentals in my case), there are many roads to Dublin.

Has anyone else committed the cardinal sin of dialing down tax-deferred savings?
How secure is your employment? I max out all tax deferred vehicles so if I lose employment, don't regain similar type benefits the amounts saved will have to do the heavy lifting. Sorry for the loss of your friend. Do what makes you happy, but don't think that what happened is going to affect your outcome if you continued to save for retirement. If you really feel it is, then you have been saving too much. Saving for retirement or other goals does not have to be save max only, there can be a middle ground, you just need to find it. Saving zero, isn't it. Good Luck.
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SurferLife
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by SurferLife » Sun May 14, 2017 2:59 pm

We have adjusted our retirement savings since we are approaching early retirement and want to build up our taxable account for a home purchase. I will be about 48 when I retire so I can't touch my TSP for 11 years. We are still contributing to Roth IRAs since those contributions can be pulled out without penalty, but we've stopped maxing out our TSP (a tough decision that I question weekly). We've also done a Roth conversion to potentially assist if we need money early. I know there are methods to get at those TSP funds early, but I do not like the options. Doing a SEPP at age 48 means 11 years of payments, whether you need them or not, no thanks.

jumppilot
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by jumppilot » Sun May 14, 2017 4:11 pm

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

To be clear, I'm still saving for retirement. My employer contribution isn't dependent on my deferral rate, rather it's a true contribution as its a profit sharing plan.

But I feel comfortable with this reduced savings. We spend about $90,000 a year, with the rest going to savings. We are well on our way to a more than adequate retirement and at this point I feel like we are sacrificing today's quality of life by saving so much.

I know I'm not done using my 401(k). I will still contribute to it in the future but for now I'm OK taking a break to take care of other items.

Thanks for everyone's replies and points of view!

jumppilot
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by jumppilot » Sun May 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
How secure is your employment? I max out all tax deferred vehicles so if I lose employment, don't regain similar type benefits the amounts saved will have to do the heavy lifting.
That was the major part of my analysis. At this point, assuming a modest rate of return, we are well on our way with just the amount we have saved so far.

The analogy of being "house poor" rings true for me, except in this case it would be "retirement account poor." I would feel like I didn't manage my finances properly if, at age 50, I have $2 million in tax deferred accounts yet not much in any other type of investment vehicle.

flyingaway
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by flyingaway » Sun May 14, 2017 5:33 pm

We only dialed down retirement savings when we were paying off mortgage (in a few years) or supporting my elder son for a Ivy league school. We are now financially independent and we still max our retirement savings accounts. I have semi-retired for about 10 years and we may fully retire (health insurance uncertainty) in a few years and that is the time we will be able to manipulate the retirement savings for tax saving purposes.

veindoc
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by veindoc » Sun May 14, 2017 8:00 pm

We have saved very aggressively over the last 8 years and now find ourselves at 40 years old at about 75% of a 4% withdrawal rate that excludes mortgage payments (we will be debt free when we retire.) Without adding a single dollar our investments should grow way past our current spending. Because of that we will start decreasing our savings in 2018 and start increasing our luxury spending to keep up with the increasing growth of investments. Might as well enjoy some of that hard earned money.
Same. For years we maxed out both 457s, my husband's 403b, and a taxable account. I also have a SEP IRA, a pension plan and my husband has a profit sharing plan. We opted to reduce the amount we put in taxable to focus on mortgage payoff,529 and frivolous home renovations. I was nervous about that and even started a post on it. But you only live once and if the numbers support it, don't second guess. What's different in the OP's case if we kept up our tax deferred savings and eased up on the taxable portion. I would dial down other savings to maintain the 401k even without a match.

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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by emoore » Sun May 14, 2017 8:48 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:No, but I don't have a total savings target. My method is to put 30% into my 401(k) and max out catch-up (because all that I can put it). I also do the Roth IRA for the year. After that, I spend what I spend. Then the extra goes into taxable investing as it accumulates (or when I get around to it).
+1

This is wat I do. Max out 401k and Roth IRA and then spend the rest. If I can't retire on that in 20 years then things have gone horribly wrong.

stlrick
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by stlrick » Mon May 15, 2017 10:53 am

A concept you might want to consider to help with this decision is "lifestyle smoothing." The money you save for retirement now reduces the current income that determines your current standard of living, but it contributes to the standard of living you will have in retirement. In terms of retirement savings (and there are many other objectives for savings), "smoothing" involves trying to understand the equilibrium point. You reduce your current spending now no more than is needed to accumulate retirement assets that will allow you to continue living the same way in retirement. This is not a simple formula, and the equilibrium will change over time, but I have found it a useful way to think about current retirement contributions.

Dinosaur Dad
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Dinosaur Dad » Mon May 15, 2017 1:32 pm

Your question touches on an important consideration: after retirement, you have to think about tax rates and cash flow, pre and post RMD's.

In my case (age 60), we are planning to delay social security until 70 and wait until age 70 1/2 to take RMDs. The issue though is that exposes us to a very high tax rate...so we're going to convert some of the conventional IRAs to Roth in the interim. There are a number of assumptions and considerations you'll need to work through.

My strategy historically was to ensure that I got my company match, and then I also took advantage of the catch-up contributions to help build up the retirement accounts. Once I got the option of a Roth within my 401k, I did adjust the mix to 50/50 Pretax IRA/Roth IRA.

So I think you're asking a good question, worth exploring as you assess where you are and how far you still need to go.

miamivice
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by miamivice » Mon May 15, 2017 1:48 pm

WolfgangPauli wrote:
1. Remember, you can always borrow while you are working - no one will loan you money when you retire so if I were going to "over do it" in one category (current needs v. retirement) I would overdo the savings for retirement.
No, this is not true. Retirees can get loans (and often do) just as working people get loans. They repay them using social security, pensions, or withdrawals from 401ks.

miamivice
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by miamivice » Mon May 15, 2017 1:49 pm

Yes, I recently cooled my retirement savings rate. My retirement income estimates are showing about 3x what I project our spending to be and I don't see it is purposeful to deny myself things that I would like today just so I can have a larger portfolio in the future.

Admiral
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Admiral » Mon May 15, 2017 2:14 pm

jumppilot wrote:Based on my financial analysis, we are saving way too much in tax-deferred accounts and can dial that down a bit to take care of today's needs.
I think this is the hole in your argument. You don't state your age or the date you hope to retire, but forecasting future market returns is very difficult. For instance, if you're "saving way too much" but forecasting a 7% real return, that may not be a good analysis. Does your analysis include a 2008-style 30% drop in the market? And not one that rebounds in two years?

On the other hand, if almost none of your money is in equities and all you need is a 2% return, and you plan to retire in three years, then your statement may be accurate.

All this being said, I struggle with this also as MY financial analysis :? shows we will have "too much" based on our expected expenses upon retirement. Nevertheless I'd rather max out tax deferred space, save the money and the taxes now, and forego an extra vacation each year, or fix up our car instead of buying a new one. I don't feel we are suffering with our current savings rate (22-25% of gross) but we are forced to make choices.

EDIT to add: And +1 to the person who noted that paying off a rental property is still savings, just in a different form. I'd rather take the tax savings by putting max money in a 401k than using it to pay down what's probably a fairly low mortgage rate. That money is still illiquid unless you sell the property.

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Elsebet
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Elsebet » Mon May 15, 2017 2:35 pm

I haven't ever voluntarily dialed down my retirement, but I'm only 40. A few times I've had to reduce it involuntarily (and always temporarily) due to my husband's unemployment however.

bigred77
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by bigred77 » Mon May 15, 2017 2:44 pm

I don't understand the sentiment about "oversaving for retirement" in this case.

The alternative use of your money would be to pay taxes at your marginal rate and then prepay a rental mortgage? Why? Is your rental cashflow negative or underwater? I'd rather sell an over leveraged rental property than forego tax advantaged account contributions.

You can't really oversave for retirement in my opinion unless your already financially independent or you have taken furgality to an extreme (like you would rather send your kids to failing schools or live in a crime ridden part of town just to make sure your saving 40% of your income for retirement). That doesn't appear to be the case here at all.


Maybe try this: Instead of calling 401ks, 403bs, IRAs, 457s, etc. "retirement accounts", call them "tax advantaged accounts". Why would you actively give up tax advantages unless you had a very compelling reason to do so? These accounts are just wealth building tools. Take advantage of them.

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Hub
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Hub » Mon May 15, 2017 3:00 pm

I do get where OP is coming from. My college savings plan for my kids is to have enough saved by then in my retirement accounts so that I can stop savings at that point and be able to cash flow their college.

That said I can't stomach the marginal tax rate I find my last dollars in these days so I would not ever stop maxing out pretax accounts unless I had to. Too big of a tax hit to do it.

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simplesimon
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by simplesimon » Mon May 15, 2017 3:23 pm

jumppilot wrote:The analogy of being "house poor" rings true for me, except in this case it would be "retirement account poor." I would feel like I didn't manage my finances properly if, at age 50, I have $2 million in tax deferred accounts yet not much in any other type of investment vehicle.
Do you think tax deferred accounts are untouchable at age 50 or do you think that one should have investments in something other than stock and bond mutual funds?

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Ice-9
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by Ice-9 » Mon May 15, 2017 3:27 pm

A lot of great advice in this thread!

To directly answer the OP's question in the thread subject, yes, I've dialed down retirement savings. Until about five years ago, I had many straight years of saving 35% (or higher) of my income.

Then we decided to put more into paying down our FHA mortgage to 78% by Year 5, so as to get off the MIP as soon as the rules permit. So savings rate went down to 25% if you don't count additional mortgage principal payments as savings, or if you do count it as savings, then the savings rate stayed at least pretty close to where it was before. (This did backfire at least slightly, because without as large of a 457 contribution our AGI went above the threshold to be allowed to deduct mortgage insurance premiums on our taxes.)

Then we needed to save for a wedding (wife wanted 100+ guests) as well as a trip abroad. 22%.

Now we're in the process of adopting a child from China and also making some necessary and some desired home improvements. Retirement savings now closer to 15%. Slightly below the 16.62% savings rate I read about in Wade Pfau's famous study. A little concerned, but it's temporary. I'm a sinner on Bogleheads, but I'm still saving a higher percentage than a lot of folks I know.

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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by JRA » Mon May 15, 2017 4:18 pm

In January, my wife and I are going to dial down our 403B contributions to the minimum required to capture the employer contributions. We have been putting in close to $70,000 a year in tax deferred and Roth accounts for a number of years and now are only about $45,000 short of our "number" (25 times anticipated expenses--not including SS). We plan to continue fully funding our Roths, but the remaining money will be either spent or (more likely) invested in taxable accounts. I am very concerned about the amount of money we have in tax deferred accounts and future tax liabilities when we start RMDs (10 years away). The taxable accounts would give us a bit of flexibility in tax management. We may even re-characterize some TIRA's to Roths if we find ourselves in a 15% tax bracket once we retire. Honestly, we probably can and perhaps should retire, but I just don't feel like it is the right time.

jumppilot
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Re: Anyone else dial down retirement savings?

Post by jumppilot » Mon May 15, 2017 5:37 pm

simplesimon wrote:
jumppilot wrote:The analogy of being "house poor" rings true for me, except in this case it would be "retirement account poor." I would feel like I didn't manage my finances properly if, at age 50, I have $2 million in tax deferred accounts yet not much in any other type of investment vehicle.
Do you think tax deferred accounts are untouchable at age 50 or do you think that one should have investments in something other than stock and bond mutual funds?

Both. Especially since I don't plan on retiring early.

I'm in my 30s now and I would like to have my rental properties paid off by the time I am 50. Having an extra $4,000 a month coming in, and being able to use that immediately, has an appeal to me.

We are still saving $25,000 in tax-deferred accounts, I just stopped the voluntary 401(k) portion.

I'm sure I'll be back though..the boglehead in me is strong!

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