Red light camera Fort Worth

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BashDash
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Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by BashDash » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:33 pm

Two summers ago, i visited Fort Worth, TX with my wife for an adoption conference with my son and sister in law. During the conference, my sister in law was caring for my son. While driving the rental car in my name, my sister in law took a right on red and I was sent a summons from a law firm requesting 100$ for a civil violation. There is a link to a website with video of this. I think this is unfair especially since I was not driving and I cannot contest this as we live in NY. I received the second notice frok a law firm in the mail basically telling me to pay 100$ to make this go away.

Any thoughts?

Good Listener
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Good Listener » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:35 pm

So you would rather tell them it was your sister in law? The camera doesn't know who the driver was !

bloom2708
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:38 pm

Pay it and move on.
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Toons
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Toons » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:54 pm

bloom2708 wrote:Pay it and move on.
+1 :happy
Exactly :happy
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jimb_fromATL
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by jimb_fromATL » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:03 pm

As others have said, pay it and move on. It's no different than if she were driving your own car. The owner is responsible for the violation, and you were effectively the owner while you were renting the car. Plus it's a sure thing that the fine print on the contract included your pledge to pay for any traffic fines incurred against the vehicle while it was signed out by contract to you.

Maybe SIL will be willing to pay for it, since she was the one who broke the law. But it's probably not worth forcing the issue if you want to preserve the peace in your family.

jimb
Last edited by jimb_fromATL on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TxAg
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by TxAg » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:05 pm

Don't pay it

They can't do anything to you

These red light cameras are such a gimmick



Read the last paragraph:
http://texas.drivinguniversity.com/red- ... red-light/
Last edited by TxAg on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jf89
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by jf89 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:06 pm

Two summers ago? A law firm?

Why weren't you notified sooner? Why is a law firm involved instead of Texas DOT or the local/state/highway police?

Edit: I'm normally in the "the law was broken, just pay the fine or tell them your SIL was driving and make her pay the fine" camp, but these questions would need to be answered for me first.
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:19 pm

Does the law firm in question provide you with the Texas statute that you are accused of violating? Does the Texas collection agency inform you of your rights? Two ways to handle this - write back, certified mail indicate you owe zero and request additional proof indicating you were the driver. See what they say, you preserve your rights by not admitting to anything and not remitting payment. On the other hand, if they quote you the statute and obtain a court judgment in Texas, they could come after you civilly.

I got a ticket mailed to me from Europe, 18 months after I was there, they sent me a copy of my rental car agreement and photos of my rental car at intersection in question, I paid it.
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CFIT
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by CFIT » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:20 pm

Several years ago I was contacted about a red light photo that had been taken of one of my cars. Looking at the photo, I saw that my wife had been driving the car at the time. Since I'm a guy, and clearly was not the driver, the state wanted me to tell them who was behind the wheel. I never replied and that was the end of it. My takeaway is that, at least in California, they need to match the photo of the driver to the registered owner. Does the video in your case show that the driver was of a different gender than yourself?


Here are some interesting sites:

http://fortworthtexas.gov/tpw/red-light-cameras/

https://trafficschoolonline.com/blog/te ... era-ticket

http://oakcliff.advocatemag.com/2013/06 ... ra-ticket/
"Safelight can send the notices to a collection agency but, reportedly under state law, major credit agencies are not alerted to violators’ lack of payment, so a your credit score will not be impacted, should you choose to toss the ticket in the junk mail pile."

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jimb_fromATL
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by jimb_fromATL » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:22 pm

TxAg wrote:Don't pay it

They can't do anything to you


Sure they can.

Among possibilities, depending on any reciprocal agreements TX may have with your state, they may be able to get your driver's license suspended for non-payment of a traffic fine.

It's doubtful that they will issue a warrant for you and try to extradite you to appear in court, but they may perhaps turn it over to a collection agency or pursue it themselves to sue you and win a judgment; at which time they may perhaps ruin your credit rating; and -- again depending on your state laws and any reciprocal agreements they may have with TX -- may adversely affect your car insurance rates, and possibly with a judgment maybe even garnishee your wages. Plus you could be in a heap of trouble if you don't pay it and you're ever stopped by the law while you're driving in Texas.

I guess it's worth a try, but somehow I doubt that telling them that somebody on a talk forum said they can't do any of those things will stand up in court. :)

jimb

WarChest
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by WarChest » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:29 pm

Don't pay it. I got one in an area of Los Angeles that still uses cameras and didn't pay. Nothing has happened since. The courts are not enforcing (reporting to DMV or credit agencies) due to the multiple legal challenges. Sad that a few areas within LA still try to use the cameras to loot the pockets of drivers.

If I'm wrong (or you are) for not paying, worst case scenario you end up being forced to pay the original penalty plus a small extra fine. Worth the gamble for me at least as it was ~$500 for rolling a red and turning right.

BashDash
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by BashDash » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:37 pm

It says it is a civil unpaid penalty imposed by the city of Fort Worth ordinance. Payment should be made to city of Fort Worth photo enforcement program. The video you can't tell who is driving. I just know since the only time I was in a car was with all four people. You can tell there isn't four people. I don't want anything to come bad of this but just feel it is sketchy and I'm being extorted. I have rented a car after this but in florida.

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triceratop
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by triceratop » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:38 pm

Good Listener wrote:So you would rather tell them it was your sister in law? The camera doesn't know who the driver was !
Actually since the red light camera violation is described as being civil it reminded me of That Time I Turned a Routine Traffic Ticket into the Constitutional Trial of the Century (hope that's ok -- it isn't political but does describe the state of the legal system).
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Pajamas
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Pajamas » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:39 pm

The law firm is probably acting as a collection agency.

According to the website below, the type of ticket you got can be sent to collections but will not be reported to the credit bureaus and will not result in any points on your license. You should confirm this information and also make sure that it will not affect your insurance if you choose not to pay it.

https://trafficschoolonline.com/blog/te ... era-ticket

The law firm/collection agency probably bought the debt for just a few dollars and if you don't pay, that will probably be the end of it. This debt is not worth much because it is so old and they aren't going to make much effort to collect it and apparently don't have much legal recourse other than harassing you about it. Presumably a law firm will follow the law, but perhaps not one that will buy $100 debts that are two years old, and the employee dealing with the matter is almost certainly not actually a lawyer, anyway.

If you are not going to pay the fine, it would probably be best not to communicate with the collection agency at all.

Before paying, I would want to know why the ticket was not sent to me or to the car rental agency to pass along to me with a fee immediately and unless they already provided this information, it would be impossible to find out without communicating with them. The delay seems unreasonable, and that would make me hesitate to pay, even though I generally prefer to just pay what I owe and be done with it. I would probably confirm that the consequences of not paying are practically nil, and then wait a couple of months to see if they just drop it completely.

rralex1
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by rralex1 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:38 pm

In all of it's simplicity one option is to ask yourself regardless of time etc etc....is what's the right thing to do? Did she run the red light while driving the car in your name?

If yes it's a penalty that is due. Just is. Pay it or ask her to pay it. Translation...pay it.
If you believe that she didn't run it (typically the picture is included and clear) you can dispute it but that will require in most cases a lot more than a a$100 cost all in time included.

Doing the right thing is usually the most difficult decision, and usually the right one. I travel across NA, have for the last 20+ years, and have experienced this more than once. And yes, I considered dodging the accountability. I have always referred to the first sentence in my response. Just my 2 cts.

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F150HD
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by F150HD » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:30 pm

BashDash wrote:Two summers ago, i visited Fort Worth, TX with my wife for an adoption conference with my son and sister in law. During the conference, my sister in law was caring for my son. While driving the rental car in my name, my sister in law took a right on red and I was sent a summons from a law firm requesting 100$ for a civil violation. There is a link to a website with video of this. I think this is unfair especially since I was not driving and I cannot contest this as we live in NY. I received the second notice frok a law firm in the mail basically telling me to pay 100$ to make this go away.

Any thoughts?
Different state, but worth noting...

Minnesota Supreme Court Strikes Down Red Light Cameras

https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1688.asp

gwe67
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by gwe67 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Ft. Worth once sent me a bogus parking ticket (I had never even been to Ft. Worth). My lawyer called them and got it taken care of.
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saladdin
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by saladdin » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:21 pm

jimb_fromATL wrote:
TxAg wrote:Don't pay it

They can't do anything to you


Sure they can.

Among possibilities, depending on any reciprocal agreements TX may have with your state, they may be able to get your driver's license suspended for non-payment of a traffic fine.

It's doubtful that they will issue a warrant for you and try to extradite you to appear in court, but they may perhaps turn it over to a collection agency or pursue it themselves to sue you and win a judgment; at which time they may perhaps ruin your credit rating; and -- again depending on your state laws and any reciprocal agreements they may have with TX -- may adversely affect your car insurance rates, and possibly with a judgment maybe even garnishee your wages. Plus you could be in a heap of trouble if you don't pay it and you're ever stopped by the law while you're driving in Texas.

I guess it's worth a try, but somehow I doubt that telling them that somebody on a talk forum said they can't do any of those things will stand up in court. :)

jimb
Depends on the state and if ticket is for running red light or speeding. In mine, they can not send to collections if not paid and no points on license. There are state Congressmen here who video burning their red light tickets.

It all depends on your state.

The Wizard
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by The Wizard » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:27 pm

TxAg wrote:Don't pay it

They can't do anything to you

These red light cameras are such a gimmick



Read the last paragraph:
http://texas.drivinguniversity.com/red- ... red-light/
So just tell them to pound sand then?
Attempted new signature...

flyingbison
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by flyingbison » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:32 pm

BashDash wrote:It says it is a civil unpaid penalty imposed by the city of Fort Worth ordinance. Payment should be made to city of Fort Worth photo enforcement program. The video you can't tell who is driving. I just know since the only time I was in a car was with all four people. You can tell there isn't four people. I don't want anything to come bad of this but just feel it is sketchy and I'm being extorted. I have rented a car after this but in florida.
Extorted? There is a video of the car you were renting going through a red light. Pay the fine and ask the driver to reimburse you.

wilshuer
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by wilshuer » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:43 pm

Resident of Texas here.

If you don't pay in Texas, it is only civil and about the only recourse is the DMV puts a block on renewal of your car registration and reports it as a scofflaw registration. It is up to the county to enforce the block, which many don't and you can register anyways. A state law was put into effect many years ago which limits the credit reporting, any programs that existed prior can report but none of the credit agencies will accept the report.

No effect on car insurance, points on license, etc per state law.

I'm sure the delay in getting to you is probably around it being a rental car. Had to be submitted to the rental car company, ticket went through their bureaucracy to contest and reply back that it was a rental, and your contact information. By the time that passed it was handed off to a collection attorney. You could simply pay it, ignore it and likely have no effect, or contact the lawyer and settle for some smaller amount.

If you don't pay, you can brag to your friends that you are a registered scofflaw in the state of Texas.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:51 pm

The car was in your name and somehow you feel you aren't responsible for it? Why is it unfair? You likely agreed to be responsible for any tickets while you had the car rented in your name - I believe its spelled right out in the rental car contract you signed. You should pay the ticket. If it was someone else driving then you may have the right to turn around and sue them (assuming you had put them as a driver on the rental contract) to recover the money that you owe.
In my case - I received a bill from the actual rental car agency (they paid the ticket - and charged me for the price of the ticket and a processing fee). I didn't shirk it as I always pay when I know its my responsibility to do so.

EDIT: Here is how the language reads from one of the major car rental companies - I'm guessing you agreed to something similar:
You’ll pay all fines, penalties and court costs for parking, traffic, toll and other
violations, including storage liens and charges. You will also pay a reasonable administrative fee with respect to any violation of this
agreement, such as for repossessing or recovering the car for any reason.
You agree we may, in our sole discretion, pay all tickets, citations, fines and penalties on your behalf directly to the appropriate authority
and you will pay us for what we paid to the appropriate authority or their designated agents plus a reasonable administrative fee. You
agree and acknowledge that we cooperate with all federal, state, municipal and local officials charged with enforcing these infractions to
provide any information necessary as they may request or may otherwise be required.

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Kenkat
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Kenkat » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:12 pm

If this were me:

What I would like to do:

Don't pay, pay but make check payable to People's Republic of Texas, pay in pennies, protest with a really big sign at the camera in question, etc. Whew, I feel better. These cameras are maddening to me because they represent more of a money grab by the municipality than safety enforcement. The programs are run by a third party private company who gets a cut of any tickets written. Just seems like a huge conflict of interest.

What I would really do:

Pay the fine, maybe write a letter to the mayor of Ft. Worth and the Texas legislature telling them that I enjoyed their city and state but am now left with a negative impression that may make me less likely to return.

I'd like to be a rebel fugitive but I am mostly a law and order type and like it or not, the red light cameras are currently legal in Texas.

I assume the ticket was for not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red? Or going through a No Turn on Red sign?

aristotelian
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by aristotelian » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:18 pm

If it makes you feel better, I recently received a form letter from some county court in Colorado. 20 years ago, I was stopped for speeding on a road trip driving home from college. I paid the ticket immediately and never heard from them. Then all of a sudden I get this bill for $200. Called the court and the lady said they were going through their old files, there was no record of me paying, so the debt stands unless I could prove that I paid. Of course, this was 20 years and half a dozen bank accounts ago. I paid the ticket. Again.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:21 pm

Kenkat wrote:If this were me:

What I would like to do:

Don't pay, pay but make check payable to People's Republic of Texas, pay in pennies, protest with a really big sign at the camera in question, etc. Whew, I feel better. These cameras are maddening to me because they represent more of a money grab by the municipality than safety enforcement. The programs are run by a third party private company who gets a cut of any tickets written. Just seems like a huge conflict of interest.

What I would really do:

Pay the fine, maybe write a letter to the mayor of Ft. Worth and the Texas legislature telling them that I enjoyed their city and state but am now left with a negative impression that may make me less likely to return.

I'd like to be a rebel fugitive but I am mostly a law and order type and like it or not, the red light cameras are currently legal in Texas.

I assume the ticket was for not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red? Or going through a No Turn on Red sign?
Just curious: how do you know that this offense didn't cause a safety issue? I've almost been hit by folks "sneaking through" red lights several times. The car went through a red light - red lights are there for safety - the ticket should be paid.

TheRightKost87
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by TheRightKost87 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:36 pm

DaftInvestor wrote: The car went through a red light
How do you know this? All we've learned here is that the SIL took a right on red and a law firm in Texas alleges that the driver owes a fine.
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themesrob
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by themesrob » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:40 pm

I would just pay the ticket. Texas' statute says that the municipalities may impose civil penalties on the "owner" of a car for a red light camera violation, not the "driver," so whoever was driving is irrelevant, and undoubtedly, the rental car company agreement makes the renter liable for any such violations incurred. (From the original post, it also sounds like your SIL was not an approved driver for the rental car, so going that route is unavailing for a couple reasons. If she were an approved driver, then she would have gotten the same letter, right?) Doesn't make sense to me to not pay, even if there's a chance there would be no consequences.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:40 pm

TheRightKost87 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote: The car went through a red light
How do you know this? All we've learned here is that the SIL took a right on red and a law firm in Texas alleges that the driver owes a fine.
I guess we'd have to watch the video the OP has access to - The OP said there was a video of the incident and said he felt the ticket "unfair because he wasn't driving". I assume if the OP felt the ticket was unfair because the car safely went right-on-red where it was a allowed and where/when it was safe to do so he would have stated this.

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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:21 pm

Honestly, i wish the states/counties/cities would blanket my area with cameras to nab those who believe traffic laws are for everyone EXCEPT themselves!

Also, traffic fines are WAY too low. Considering these scofflaws regularly cause mayhem and carnage (usually hurting innocents), violations should reflect the true costs these idiots load on society.

Wife and I have received tickets, and they (the tickets) were honestly earned.

BUT a ticket for $100 is a joke. Make it $1000. Can't scrape up $1000? Well, then we will see you for 100 hours picking up litter on our shamefully trash-strewn roadsides.

Don't even get me started on DUIs. Seems nearly every day some drunk driver (repeated offenses, usually) kills some innocent driver who is just in the wrong place at the wrong time and pays the ultimate price. Families are destroyed, but the drunk lives on.

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Mr.BB
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Mr.BB » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:25 pm

Your car
Your rental agreement
Your responsibility

The only questions I have is why a law firm is contacting you, and why isn't your sister in law reimbursing you since she is the one who messed up?
Last edited by Mr.BB on Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenkat
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Kenkat » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:48 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Kenkat wrote:If this were me:

What I would like to do:

Don't pay, pay but make check payable to People's Republic of Texas, pay in pennies, protest with a really big sign at the camera in question, etc. Whew, I feel better. These cameras are maddening to me because they represent more of a money grab by the municipality than safety enforcement. The programs are run by a third party private company who gets a cut of any tickets written. Just seems like a huge conflict of interest.

What I would really do:

Pay the fine, maybe write a letter to the mayor of Ft. Worth and the Texas legislature telling them that I enjoyed their city and state but am now left with a negative impression that may make me less likely to return.

I'd like to be a rebel fugitive but I am mostly a law and order type and like it or not, the red light cameras are currently legal in Texas.

I assume the ticket was for not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red? Or going through a No Turn on Red sign?
Just curious: how do you know that this offense didn't cause a safety issue? I've almost been hit by folks "sneaking through" red lights several times. The car went through a red light - red lights are there for safety - the ticket should be paid.
I would like a uniformed officer employed by the responsible jurisdiction to make that determination rather than a camera put in place by a private firm that has a financial incentive to write as many tickets as they can - and the jurisdiction has an equivalent financial incentive to let them do it.

If it was about safety, they should put a big sign up saying "Traffic camera in use - you will be ticketed". Then everyone would comply. Except they don't do that because that cuts into the revenue stream.

In Ohio, there was a municipality writing 6,000 tickets a month (with a total population 2,100) before a state law banned the practice.

These things feel like a money grab to me.

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TxAg
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by TxAg » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:57 pm

The Wizard wrote:
TxAg wrote:Don't pay it

They can't do anything to you

These red light cameras are such a gimmick



Read the last paragraph:
http://texas.drivinguniversity.com/red- ... red-light/
So just tell them to pound sand then?

I would just ignore it

jf89
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by jf89 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:07 pm

Wait a second... right turn on red is legal in Texas unless there's a sign.
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DaftInvestor
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:10 pm

TxAg wrote:Don't pay it

They can't do anything to you

These red light cameras are such a gimmick



Read the last paragraph:
http://texas.drivinguniversity.com/red- ... red-light/
The last paragraph doesn't say they can't do anything. It just says "the ticket won't appear on your driving record, won't create points against your license, and your insurance company can't use it as an excuse to raise rates." I would assume the ticket could still go to a collection agency and could still be reported against your credit...additional late fees could be added over time and so on.
Personally I'd pay it just not to have it hanging over me.

wilshuer
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by wilshuer » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:16 pm

jf89 wrote:Wait a second... right turn on red is legal in Texas unless there's a sign.
It's legal, but must come to a complete stop before proceeding. I had a red light camera ticket in another TX city, when I received the notice I called BS until I went to their website and was able to see the video. I clearly applied brakes but didn't reach a complete stop long enough, saw no point in arguing and just paid the $75. Could have ignored but allocated it up to my stupid expense account and paid.

wilshuer
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by wilshuer » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:20 pm

DaftInvestor wrote: Read the last paragraph:
http://texas.drivinguniversity.com/red- ... red-light/
The last paragraph doesn't say they can't do anything. It just says "the ticket won't appear on your driving record, won't create points against your license, and your insurance company can't use it as an excuse to raise rates." I would assume the ticket could still go to a collection agency and could still be reported against your credit...additional late fees could be added over time and so on.
Personally I'd pay it just not to have it hanging over me.[/quote]

Per Texas state law they can't report to credit agencies, and per Texas law late fees can't total more than $25. The state has made it as difficult as possible for localities to enforce. Is paying the fine the right thing to do, perhaps, and that's a different question. Perhaps OP should turn it over to the SIL to decide how she handles as it was her infraction.

James2
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by James2 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:22 pm

I'd pay it and move on...

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gasman
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by gasman » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:25 pm

wilshuer wrote:
jf89 wrote:Wait a second... right turn on red is legal in Texas unless there's a sign.
It's legal, but must come to a complete stop before proceeding. I had a red light camera ticket in another TX city, when I received the notice I called BS until I went to their website and was able to see the video. I clearly applied brakes but didn't reach a complete stop long enough, saw no point in arguing and just paid the $75. Could have ignored but allocated it up to my stupid expense account and paid.
yup. been dinged for coming to a slow roll as opposed to a complete stop more than once.

ddurrett896
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by ddurrett896 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:40 pm

CFIT wrote:Since I'm a guy, and clearly was not the driver, the state wanted me to tell them who was
This. Tell them someone interested in buying your car had it on a test drive. Give them the name from someone in the last obituary and be done with it!

traveltoomuch
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by traveltoomuch » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:09 pm

jf89 wrote:...A law firm? ... Why is a law firm involved instead of Texas DOT or the local/state/highway police?
Probably because it's a rental car. I'm guessing that the car company already paid the ticket, and now they're trying to collect from you.

If you want a reason to blow them off, call it "you didn't inform me in time for me to challenge an improper ticket". But DaftInvestor quoted some contract language that likely applied. And perhaps you could find yourself banned by this car rental company if you don't pay them back. (Hasn't happened to me - I don't know how likely it is.)

I would only ignore it if I was willing to walk away from this car rental company forever. Since it sounds like this is a legit ticket, just with stupidly slow billing, I'd probably pay them.

S&L1940
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by S&L1940 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:20 pm

BashDash wrote:It says it is a civil unpaid penalty imposed by the city of Fort Worth ordinance. Payment should be made to city of Fort Worth photo enforcement program. The video you can't tell who is driving. I just know since the only time I was in a car was with all four people. You can tell there isn't four people. I don't want anything to come bad of this but just feel it is sketchy and I'm being extorted. I have rented a car after this but in florida.
Most - if not all - communities in South Florida have suspended the red light camera programs because of legal issues. down here the rule is based on rolling, NOT Stopping, at less than 15(?) mph when coming to a right turn on red. there was also a question as to whether the police had reviewed or monitored the violation photo. legal issue was whether the "proof" was valid.
no idea how this would relate to Texas, if it was me, I would wimp out and pay Fort Worth, not the law firm.
Don't it always seem to go * That you don't know what you've got * Till it's gone

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:33 pm

wilshuer wrote:
Per Texas state law they can't report to credit agencies, and per Texas law late fees can't total more than $25. The state has made it as difficult as possible for localities to enforce. Is paying the fine the right thing to do, perhaps, and that's a different question. Perhaps OP should turn it over to the SIL to decide how she handles as it was her infraction.
There's state law and then there's whatever the OP agreed to in his rental contract. I'm guessing the rental contract states the OP is responsible.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Doom&Gloom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:55 pm

gasman wrote:
wilshuer wrote:
jf89 wrote:Wait a second... right turn on red is legal in Texas unless there's a sign.
It's legal, but must come to a complete stop before proceeding. I had a red light camera ticket in another TX city, when I received the notice I called BS until I went to their website and was able to see the video. I clearly applied brakes but didn't reach a complete stop long enough, saw no point in arguing and just paid the $75. Could have ignored but allocated it up to my stupid expense account and paid.
yup. been dinged for coming to a slow roll as opposed to a complete stop more than once.
I have not been dinged for that. I learned from a friend of mine who did get dinged in high school. The cop asked him if he knew the difference between what he did and a legal stop, my friend replied, "No." The cop said, "Twelve dollars" as he handed him the ticket. Yes, it was a long time ago 8-)

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:17 pm

BashDash wrote:It says it is a civil unpaid penalty imposed by the city of Fort Worth ordinance. Payment should be made to city of Fort Worth photo enforcement program. The video you can't tell who is driving. I just know since the only time I was in a car was with all four people. You can tell there isn't four people. I don't want anything to come bad of this but just feel it is sketchy and I'm being extorted. I have rented a car after this but in florida.
In what way is being fined for a traffic violation you concede happened extortion? If you want you can blame your sister in law and try to get her fined instead, as noted, but the violation occurred, and the court system knows about it because of the video.

You say it is a civil, not a criminal, case. The standard of evidence in civil cases is far lower than criminal: a preponderance of the evidence, which is to say more credible evidence on one side than the other. They have photos.

PJW

ace1400
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by ace1400 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:18 pm

Some posters are framing this as a moral issue and I agree. However, I come to the opposite conclusion they do. It is now very well established that red light cameras increase accidents and injuries. Companies that promote them and profit from them of course claim the opposite, by only considering accidents that happen in the "box". However, when all accidents are considered, there is a significant increase in overall intersection accidents and injuries. Typically this is due to two factors: drivers are "trained" by red light cameras to slam on the brakes for a yellow light in situations were other drivers are expecting them to proceed through the intersection. Secondly, the for-profit companies that own and operate the cameras in most jurisdictions fully utilize the fact that they can "dial up" revenues by decreasing the duration of the yellow light. The shorter the yellow, the higher the revenue. Unfortunately for people who do not profit from red light cameras, increasing the duration of the yellow light is the most effective way of decreasing intersection collisions.

Just one of many studies on the first page of google results:
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/study-red- ... -accidents

There are many people who are dead today who would be alive if it were not for red light cameras. Anyone with a moral compass can steadfastly refuse to support those profiting from these deaths and injuries. I would not pay.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:33 pm

ace1400 wrote:Some posters are framing this as a moral issue and I agree. However, I come to the opposite conclusion they do. It is now very well established that red light cameras increase accidents and injuries. Companies that promote them and profit from them of course claim the opposite, by only considering accidents that happen in the "box". However, when all accidents are considered, there is a significant increase in overall intersection accidents and injuries. Typically this is due to two factors: drivers are "trained" by red light cameras to slam on the brakes for a yellow light in situations were other drivers are expecting them to proceed through the intersection. Secondly, the for-profit companies that own and operate the cameras in most jurisdictions fully utilize the fact that they can "dial up" revenues by decreasing the duration of the yellow light. The shorter the yellow, the higher the revenue. Unfortunately for people who do not profit from red light cameras, increasing the duration of the yellow light is the most effective way of decreasing intersection collisions.

Just one of many studies on the first page of google results:
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/study-red- ... -accidents

There are many people who are dead today who would be alive if it were not for red light cameras. Anyone with a moral compass can steadfastly refuse to support those profiting from these deaths and injuries. I would not pay.
I read the article. I would hardly call it "very well established" based upon this newspaper or anything else I've read. I would say the jury is still out from what I've read.
Traffic cameras are unpopular- no one likes them- I paid $100 for speeding in DC due to one myself- but I don't think there is enough evidence to claim they make things less safe overall. Drive by the law or pay the price.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:44 pm

ace1400 wrote:...
There are many people who are dead today who would be alive if it were not for red light cameras. Anyone with a moral compass can steadfastly refuse to support those profiting from these deaths and injuries. I would not pay.
I understand your position. Mine is if the law is bad, the proper response is to work to change the law, including deliberately engaging in civil disobedience fully accepting any and all legal penalties, but that would appear not to be the case here. We differ on the right way for OP to handle this specific situation, and it doesn't bother me that we disagree. That's what makes a body politic. Your broader point is well taken.
PJW

TropikThunder
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by TropikThunder » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:12 pm

BashDash wrote:Two summers ago, i visited Fort Worth, TX with my wife for an adoption conference with my son and sister in law. During the conference, my sister in law was caring for my son. While driving the rental car in my name, my sister in law took a right on red and I was sent a summons from a law firm requesting 100$ for a civil violation. There is a link to a website with video of this. I think this is unfair especially since I was not driving and I cannot contest this as we live in NY. I received the second notice frok a law firm in the mail basically telling me to pay 100$ to make this go away.

Any thoughts?
I haven't see any comments re: whether she was an authorized driver or not. If she was authorized, then your rental agreement includes language stating that you agree to pay all fines associated with having possession and use of the car. If she was not authorized, then you violated the terms of your contract and the ticket was the least of the possible consequences. Have you stopped and thought what would have happened to you if she had gotten into an accident while driving and totaled the car? None of your insurance coverage or liability damage waivers would have applied and you would be responsible for the replacement value of the car, which I feel safe in assuming is more than $100.

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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by TropikThunder » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:18 pm

DaftInvestor wrote: EDIT: Here is how the language reads from one of the major car rental companies - I'm guessing you agreed to something similar:
You’ll pay all fines, penalties and court costs for parking, traffic, toll and other
violations, including storage liens and charges. You will also pay a reasonable administrative fee with respect to any violation of this
agreement, such as for repossessing or recovering the car for any reason.
You agree we may, in our sole discretion, pay all tickets, citations, fines and penalties on your behalf directly to the appropriate authority
and you will pay us for what we paid to the appropriate authority or their designated agents plus a reasonable administrative fee.
You
agree and acknowledge that we cooperate with all federal, state, municipal and local officials charged with enforcing these infractions to
provide any information necessary as they may request or may otherwise be required.
Frankly I'm amazed the rental firm didn't do just that. Standard practice in my experience is that the rental company pays the fine and charges it to the credit card you used for the rental. No fuss, no muss (for them) and they don't need your permission to do so. OP, did you ever contact the rental company and ask what their normal policy is?

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JonnyDVM
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Re: Red light camera Fort Worth

Post by JonnyDVM » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:30 pm

I'm always surprised at the number of people that are willing to give into a blatant infringement on our constitutional rights. Just pay the ticket! Your car broke the law! This same line of thinking is why I have to watch my wife get an excessive and completely unnecessary patdown by the TSA every other time we fly. The general population just doesn't give a crap.

In the United States we are supposed to have something called due process. If the state of Texas wants to write OP a ticket, have a policman pull OPs car over CONFIRM who is driving and violated the law and write the damn ticket. Hey, they might actually pick up a few felons that way that skipped out on another offense and actually do something real to improve public safety instead of just raise revenue. A picture of a car proves nothing. Anyone could be driving it. Allowing someone else to drive your car is not a crime. They outsource the collection of these things hoping people will pay but knowing they have no legal standing if they don't. I tell them to pound sand. I don't care if it's $1. Extortion is extortion.
Sometimes the questions are complicated and the answers are simple. -Dr. Seuss

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