Total Annual Expenses

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RoadHouseFan
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Total Annual Expenses

Post by RoadHouseFan »

Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
livesoft
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by livesoft »

We actually don't have a target. $30K would cover college expenses, utilities, and property taxes which leaves a lot of other stuff to pay for including health insurance premiums and homeowners/auto/liability insurance. We don't eat, so we save money that way.
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CoAndy
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by CoAndy »

Right now, we are probably at about $70,000.
michaeljc70
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by michaeljc70 »

I am around $50k. That doesn't include income taxes or principal on my mortgage (as I don't view that as an expense). Food, entertainment (vacations) and housing (loan interest, property taxes, insurance, etc.) are 2/3s of that.
Not Law
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Not Law »

$36,000 per year for necessities - food, shelter, transportation, utilities. Could probably cut that by 1/3 if needed (cable, booze, etc.). Throw in another $12,000 for luxuries - vacations, supporting family, grandchildren (who we hope to help with college in September).
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tdhg566
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by tdhg566 »

CoAndy wrote:Right now, we are probably at about $70,000.
depending how you define things, we're probably at that point too.

Remember once upon a time when "they" said expenses would go down in retirement? I'm still waiting...
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delamer
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by delamer »

livesoft wrote:We don't eat, so we save money that way.
And it avoids having to save for the future!
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by TomatoTomahto »

How do you define total household expenses? Taxes included? Kids' tuition included? What we could live on frugally, extravagantly, or currently?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
SQRT
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by SQRT »

Fail to see how this would be of use to anyone? I spend my pension and dividends. A fair bit more than $30k. Why not ask for net worth while you're at it? A poll would work better?
an_asker
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by an_asker »

RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
It depends on what you include as "expenses" - for instance, would the money paid towards rental property's PITI count as expense (or if the owner has a net profit, does he/she get to deduct that profit from the "expenses")?

Also, it depends, if you are closer to Buffett in income or a hamburger flipper or a ... hopefully, Buffett's annual expense target is not the same as that of someone at a minimum wage job. In other words, what I am saying is that this question does not really have a "good" answer :oops:

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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by michaeljc70 »

SQRT wrote:Fail to see how this would be of use to anyone? I spend my pension and dividends. A fair bit more than $30k. Why not ask for net worth while you're at it? A poll would work better?
I tend to agree. I've seen a lot of these type of threads...how much do you spend on food...on your house...on your car, etc. Obviously if you make $50k comparing it to someone that makes $500k or has a net worth 10x what you do doesn't tell you much. Net worth, income, how big your family is, where you live and personal preferences all play into this.
ddunca1944
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by ddunca1944 »

tdhg566 wrote:
CoAndy wrote:Right now, we are probably at about $70,000.
depending how you define things, we're probably at that point too.

Remember once upon a time when "they" said expenses would go down in retirement? I'm still waiting...

+1

Some expenses went down, but that was offset by other expenses that went up. Overall, our retirement spending is about the same as it was pre-retirement.
mptfan
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by mptfan »

SQRT wrote:A poll would work better?
If only they were allowed...
:-?
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Youngblood
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Youngblood »

OP said total household expenses. Everything!

Kind of confuses me when folks say not counting this or that. The biggest leak in my boat is taxes so I definitely have to include those.

84K here.

Maybe someone can post their rationale explaining why they don't count taxes.

YB
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michaeljc70
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by michaeljc70 »

Youngblood wrote:OP said total household expenses. Everything!

Kind of confuses me when folks say not counting this or that. The biggest leak in my boat is taxes so I definitely have to include those.

84K here.

Maybe someone can post their rationale explaining why they don't count taxes.

YB
Of course, it is an expense. But I excluded it for a couple of reasons. 1) They are non-discretionary. I can choose what house to buy, car to drive, what to eat, etc. which affects the expense. Taxes I have no control over. 2) They are based on income. If you are retired and pulling all your "income" out of a ROTH Ira, you have no taxes. Comparing someone's expenses (including taxes) making 100k from a job paying income/payroll taxes and someone pulling 100k from a ROTH doesn't make sense to me. Similarly comparing someone's expenses including taxes that makes $50k to someone making $100k just the taxes alone are going to make a huge difference.

As I stated above though, it probably isn't that meaningful anyway knowing spending without knowing income/net worth.
HIinvestor
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by HIinvestor »

We basically live on H's pension and RMDs on his 401k. This covers everything, including taxes and unexpected large expenses. The other RMDs and dividends and rental income we end up saving or gifting to our kids. At some point, I will get SS also, which I plan to save or help fund a grandkid's education with.

If we needed to, we could live much more frugally. We eat out many times/week and travel as often as desired. Sadly, we haven't figured out livesoft's trick of not eating and remaining healthy.
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Sheepdog
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Sheepdog »

NOT INCLUDING STATE AND FEDERAL INCOME TAXES OR CHARITABLE DONATIONS our expenses (in retirement) were,
2016..$43,442
2015..$52,811

Since the subject of expenses in retirement dropping or not, here is ours for select past years (also not including auto purchases, large remodeling jobs or vacations which were not in the last two years)
2000..$44,052
2005..$48,115
2010..$52,199

TOTAL SPENDING, however, including EVERYTHING in those same years were:
2000..$61,375
2005..$64,254
2010..$66,788
2015..$61,563
2016..$52,663

Total spending varied from $44,515 in 2002 to $78,524 in 2011.
Except that spending varies, this doesn't tell you anything, does it?
Last edited by Sheepdog on Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by TomatoTomahto »

michaeljc70 wrote:
Youngblood wrote:OP said total household expenses. Everything!

Kind of confuses me when folks say not counting this or that. The biggest leak in my boat is taxes so I definitely have to include those.

84K here.

Maybe someone can post their rationale explaining why they don't count taxes.

YB
Of course, it is an expense. But I excluded it for a couple of reasons. 1) They are non-discretionary. I can choose what house to buy, car to drive, what to eat, etc. which affects the expense. Taxes I have no control over. 2) They are based on income. If you are retired and pulling all your "income" out of a ROTH Ira, you have no taxes. Comparing someone's expenses (including taxes) making 100k from a job paying income/payroll taxes and someone pulling 100k from a ROTH doesn't make sense to me. Similarly comparing someone's expenses including taxes that makes $50k to someone making $100k just the taxes alone are going to make a huge difference.

As I stated above though, it probably isn't that meaningful anyway knowing spending without knowing income/net worth.
Okay. Should I exclude property taxes? That's 40k. It's non-discretionary (as long as I live in my house), but I could live elsewhere, although that would also probably cut the income that makes the discretionary spending possible.

I agree that the whole things isn't that meaningful as a poll. It might be interesting to know what percentage of one's "spare" money one chooses to spend versus save, but that's complicated also.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
michaeljc70
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by michaeljc70 »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
michaeljc70 wrote:
Youngblood wrote:OP said total household expenses. Everything!

Kind of confuses me when folks say not counting this or that. The biggest leak in my boat is taxes so I definitely have to include those.

84K here.

Maybe someone can post their rationale explaining why they don't count taxes.

YB
Of course, it is an expense. But I excluded it for a couple of reasons. 1) They are non-discretionary. I can choose what house to buy, car to drive, what to eat, etc. which affects the expense. Taxes I have no control over. 2) They are based on income. If you are retired and pulling all your "income" out of a ROTH Ira, you have no taxes. Comparing someone's expenses (including taxes) making 100k from a job paying income/payroll taxes and someone pulling 100k from a ROTH doesn't make sense to me. Similarly comparing someone's expenses including taxes that makes $50k to someone making $100k just the taxes alone are going to make a huge difference.

As I stated above though, it probably isn't that meaningful anyway knowing spending without knowing income/net worth.
Okay. Should I exclude property taxes? That's 40k. It's non-discretionary (as long as I live in my house), but I could live elsewhere, although that would also probably cut the income that makes the discretionary spending possible.

I agree that the whole things isn't that meaningful as a poll. It might be interesting to know what percentage of one's "spare" money one chooses to spend versus save, but that's complicated also.
I suppose you could also control your income taxes too by quitting your job or working for less money. :D
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Youngblood
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Youngblood »

For me, I would find it more useful and interesting were the question: What percentage of your total income are your total expenses?

That's something I believe is important information to have in regards to most stages in life.

YB
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Gnirk »

Our total expenditures in 2016 were $115,000 not including income taxes. We are retired, no debt. We have expenses for our primary residence, and our snowbird home. We enjoy travel, DH golfs, and we are helping to pay for granddaughter's college education at a private university ( though 2/3 is covered by scholarships and grants and we pay the remainder. She works part time to cover her personal expenses).

Most of our income is from taxable investments. We live below our means and could safely spend much more, and are grateful we were frugal during our working years so that we can enjoy our retirement.
Last edited by Gnirk on Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by jebmke »

Youngblood wrote:For me, I would find it more useful and interesting were the question: What percentage of your total income are your total expenses?

That's something I believe is important information to have in regards to most stages in life.

YB
The problem with that is to define "income." By most definitions, I try to keep my income as low as I can to avoid getting in the wrong place for taxes. Strategies to defer/avoid taxes might skew the results compared to what you are thinking is a good state (low expenses as a proportion of income).
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ResearchMed
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by ResearchMed »

"After tax" spending should better reflect what "stuff/experiences" are actually being purchased.

This makes a difference if someone is using after tax savings, for example, vs. "everything coming from tax-deferred accounts", and thus subject to potentially high percentage rate taxes before anything gets spent.

RM
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by oldcomputerguy »

Budget right now is around $50k / year, not counting vacations. This does include quite a bit of discretionary spending (symphony season tickets, annual streaming service renewals, etc).
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Youngblood
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Youngblood »

jebmke wrote:
Youngblood wrote:For me, I would find it more useful and interesting were the question: What percentage of your total income are your total expenses?

That's something I believe is important information to have in regards to most stages in life.

YB
The problem with that is to define "income." By most definitions, I try to keep my income as low as I can to avoid getting in the wrong place for taxes. Strategies to defer/avoid taxes might skew the results compared to what you are thinking is a good state (low expenses as a proportion of income).
Understood, and why most questions won't be relative to all.

For folks like you, perhaps comparing expenses as a percentage of capital gains or changes in net worth.

Personally, I love having income from pensions, SS, dividends, interest and capital gains and comparing them to expenses. Taxes, not so much. Another topic though, right?

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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
So I guess I'll start with $73k in tuition and school expenses. I'll have to do some fuzzy math to get the total down to $30k. Give me some time, here.
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Youngblood
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Youngblood »

ResearchMed wrote:"After tax" spending should better reflect what "stuff/experiences" are actually being purchased.

This makes a difference if someone is using after tax savings, for example, vs. "everything coming from tax-deferred accounts", and thus subject to potentially high percentage rate taxes before anything gets spent.

RM
Yes, good point. I think I would still have to include those taxes as well.

YB
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Youngblood
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Youngblood »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
So I guess I'll start with $73k in tuition and school expenses. I'll have to do some fuzzy math to get the total down to $30k. Give me some time, here.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by CWhea1775 »

As a pre-retiree who is evaluating retirement in the next 5 years, I think it is essential to include taxes in the "expenditures" estimate. I may be dense, but the various calculators and estimates available often are unclear about this. Figuring this out and then including taxes on various income streams as part of your expenses in retirement seems to be an essential part of any retirement plan to me.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by dbr »

CWhea1775 wrote:As a pre-retiree who is evaluating retirement in the next 5 years, I think it is essential to include taxes in the "expenditures" estimate. I may be dense, but the various calculators and estimates available often are unclear about this. Figuring this out and then including taxes on various income streams as part of your expenses in retirement seems to be an essential part of any retirement plan to me.
It comes down to that little expression about "after tax" income, but I am with you. As a practical matter it works better to take taxes as an expense rather than try to separately configure some kind of after tax income. The reason this is not clear in most calculators is that actual tax cost is specific to a personal situation and varies hugely from person to person. The individual has to run estimates and can logically add these as expenses.
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Youngblood
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Youngblood »

CWhea1775 wrote:As a pre-retiree who is evaluating retirement in the next 5 years, I think it is essential to include taxes in the "expenditures" estimate. I may be dense, but the various calculators and estimates available often are unclear about this. Figuring this out and then including taxes on various income streams as part of your expenses in retirement seems to be an essential part of any retirement plan to me.
That's how I looked at it during those pre-retirement years. Once you know that the monetary aspects of retirement are settled because your expenses won't be exceeding income your income...

That's what I love about financial planning programs you can check this stat every month/year.

YB
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Da5id »

livesoft wrote:We don't eat, so we save money that way.
livesoft is a bot! I KNEW there had to be something behind that high post count :)
BanditKing
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by BanditKing »

I just did this exercise last week actually. I'm going through an (amicable) divorce, so I wanted to re-orient my budget towards being single again and adjust my emergency fund accordingly.

Pre-tax expenses taken from my paycheck (401k, health insurance premiums, etc) were ignored. Annual post-tax spending clocks in around $32,000. This includes putting $5500 into my ROTH, mortgage, condo fees, property taxes, contributions to 529s for my niece and nephew, increasing my emergency fund slightly, as well as other assumed expenses like food, utilities, and modest entertainment (movies, bar hopping with friends, etc, but not larger planned things like expensive concerts or shows). If I had to, I could probably shave 1/3 to 1/2 off of that should I be out of work or otherwise need to trim hard.

I have a separate account for large planned purchases, vacations, etc, that falls outside of the above numbers.

Divorce is a trigger for the review and update of my IPS, and I will probably add some statement that my annual post-tax budgets should remain under $35,000. My normal IPS reviews are in leap years, so that would be set until 2020.
SQRT
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by SQRT »

Youngblood wrote:
Maybe someone can post their rationale explaining why they don't count taxes.

YB
I view income taxes as an offset to income, ie they are a direct cost of earning the money. It's generally not something you can avoid or chose to spend. Thus, I view my spending as an allocation of after tax income. Other taxes such as sales taxes or property taxes, I think are true discretionary expenditures. But everybody will do what makes most sense to them.
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by MikeWillRetire »

Last year my expenses were $138k, not including income tax. In 3 years when the kids are out of college and the house is paid off, my expenses should be $70k. This assumes the kids are successfully launched.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by curmudgeon »

CWhea1775 wrote:As a pre-retiree who is evaluating retirement in the next 5 years, I think it is essential to include taxes in the "expenditures" estimate. I may be dense, but the various calculators and estimates available often are unclear about this. Figuring this out and then including taxes on various income streams as part of your expenses in retirement seems to be an essential part of any retirement plan to me.
It is important to look at taxes, but I think of income and cap gains taxes as essentially a cost against the source of funds, rather than an expenditure. Sort of like "cost of goods sold" for a business. It is a reduction in net income, not an expense. If I've stashed money away in a 401K, I don't really own the total sum there because of the associate tax cost to have use of the money. On the other hand, property taxes, sales taxes, VAT taxes etc, are expenses in my book. Both sides of the tax burden are subjects for optimizations, but one side is associated with getting access to my funds and the other to using them.

Probably the biggest source of fuzziness is how you count your housing costs in your expenses. If you rent, it's pretty straightforward, but if you own, it's less clear. Property taxes are pretty clearly an expense. I've always considered the principal part of a mortgage payment not as an expense, but rather as a form of savings. It is still an important cash flow item, but I'm essentially taking money from one pocket (my bank account) and putting it into another pocket (my home equity). But how to count the interest, or the use of the equity that has already been paid, is not so simple. My solution is to not worry about it too much, but to try to have the mortgage paid off in retirement and not worry about calculating ROI for the equity.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by jebmke »

SQRT wrote:I view income taxes as an offset to income, ie they are a direct cost of earning the money. It's generally not something you can avoid or chose to spend.
Many here would disagree with you on this. I would be one of them. I would agree that not everyone has the same ability to control how much tax they pay but you might be surprised at how much control is possible. People whose income is primarily W2 income probably have less control than say, a retiree who does not have W2 income. For example, for 2016 100% of my Federal income tax liability is discretionary. Another example, all of the re-balancing out of equity that I did between the end of 2009 and this year was done without any tax liability due to the decisions I made in 2008 and 2009 to harvest losses in my taxable account.
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RoadHouseFan
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by RoadHouseFan »

RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
Assumed that taxes are excluded from this expense target. Perhaps, "cost of living expenses" is a more appropriate title.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by SQRT »

jebmke wrote:
SQRT wrote:I view income taxes as an offset to income, ie they are a direct cost of earning the money. It's generally not something you can avoid or chose to spend.
Many here would disagree with you on this. I would be one of them. I would agree that not everyone has the same ability to control how much tax they pay but you might be surprised at how much control is possible. People whose income is primarily W2 income probably have less control than say, a retiree who does not have W2 income. For example, for 2016 100% of my Federal income tax liability is discretionary. Another example, all of the re-balancing out of equity that I did between the end of 2009 and this year was done without any tax liability due to the decisions I made in 2008 and 2009 to harvest losses in my taxable account.
Right, if you reduce your taxes, I would view that as an increase in "take home pay" but I can see your point of view. Either way need to keep on top of it.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by GerryL »

For years I was using the Quicken planner to get an estimate of how I will fare in retirement. But I made a mistake. I estimated $40k a year living expenses but included taxes in that figure. (Quicken said to leave out taxes and figured them separately.) My plan in Quicken was always looking good. I would die at the age of 96 with plenty of money still in the bank -- even though I was essentially paying taxes twice.

Then I had Vanguard create a plan for me. We used an even more generous budget. Their monte carlo exercise showed my plan being even more successful. In fact, in the best case scenarios I would die with more $$ than I started retirement with! That is when I discovered my error in Quicken. Lesson: Whether you include taxes in your definition of "expenses," you need to understand what role they play in the calculations.

Since actually retiring, I've been a little more generous to myself (and charities). I don't maintain a budget. I keep an eye on Quicken's "expenses year to date" to keep myself on track.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by PandaBear »

livesoft wrote:We don't eat, so we save money that way.
I wish I could do that. What's your secret?
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Dottie57 »

RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
Single here. I have expenses from my checking account around 30-32k. No paycheck related expenses here. No Medical insurance, giving through work, 401k. Does include property taxes.
Lynette
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Lynette »

I think that my taxes (2 pensions, SS taxes, Medicare IRMAA premiums - $300 per month, property and state tax and tax on RMDs) will be the same as my expenses. Any balance after taxes and required expenses will go to travel and some savings for emergencies.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by The Wizard »

I'm finishing up a dive trip to Belize now.
Does that count as a Household Expense?

I'm guessing that my total expenditures in a year are roughly double the basic expenses involved in maintaining a quiet stay at home lifestyle, should I choose that...
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Jackson12
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by Jackson12 »

RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
$84,000 - $92,000 and this would be significantly lower if we did not have a special needs son ( $500 a month right there) or pay long-term health care insurance premiums.

Premium hikes are a concern so it's a risk but I've seen friends go bankrupt from medical costs in retirement and they would have been financially secure otherwise ....it can cost hundreds of thousands for medical care as one ages. A relative had to go on Medicaid to get appropriate care.

We don't have enough money to self insure long- term care and we wouldn't be poor enough for Medicaid. So we're tossing the dice with long-term care insurance. I've seen it pay off for some.
dbr
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by dbr »

Instead of asking a few people here how much they spend why not do a little research on the web and get data for hundreds of millions of people?

One example is here: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm

There are probably lots of other sources that show distribution of spending and break it down by all sorts of categories.
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Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by yatesd »

I find this dialog interesting because depending on your phase of life, your goals related to expenses may be different.

For me, at 46 years old:

- How much do I need with my current circumstances (income, housing, taxes, etc.)? Personally, don't have as much cushion as I would like. Becoming less dependent on income would give me more options. I also want to simultaneously increase net worth.

- How much do I need if I lost my job? Well, moving to a LCOL area is an option, but I need to be realistic about transition costs

For a retiree:

- How little can I spend if investments tanked?

- How much cushion do I have with current spend?

Otherwise, I would think the goal would be to enjoy 8-) (maximize safe % of spending/charity)
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corn18
Posts: 1781
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:24 am

Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by corn18 »

Total expenses last year: $340k. 66% of that was taxes (income, real estate, FICA).
Don't do something, just stand there!
TN_Boy
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:51 pm

Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by TN_Boy »

RoadHouseFan wrote:
RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
Assumed that taxes are excluded from this expense target. Perhaps, "cost of living expenses" is a more appropriate title.
Are you including:

- Periodic expenses like buying a new car every ? years? [for me that is every 6 to 8 years]
- Periodic major repairs to house or car?
- Vacations?
- Medical insurance, car insurance etc
- property taxes

I often see posts like "my expenses are $K per year" and from the description it sounds like the poster is more or less adding up their rent/mortage, utilities, and a monthly food/clothing/gasoline budget and then multiplying by 12. Which of course clearly understates their true expenses over multiple years.

I agree that excluding income and SS taxes makes sense from this expense summary.
michaeljc70
Posts: 7240
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Total Annual Expenses

Post by michaeljc70 »

TN_Boy wrote:
RoadHouseFan wrote:
RoadHouseFan wrote:Our total household expenses target is around (preferably below) $30k. How about you?
Assumed that taxes are excluded from this expense target. Perhaps, "cost of living expenses" is a more appropriate title.
Are you including:

- Periodic expenses like buying a new car every ? years? [for me that is every 6 to 8 years]
- Periodic major repairs to house or car?
- Vacations?
- Medical insurance, car insurance etc
- property taxes

I often see posts like "my expenses are $K per year" and from the description it sounds like the poster is more or less adding up their rent/mortage, utilities, and a monthly food/clothing/gasoline budget and then multiplying by 12. Which of course clearly understates their true expenses over multiple years.

I agree that excluding income and SS taxes makes sense from this expense summary.
I use Quicken and when I buy a car (paying cash) I record the expense over 7 years to even it out.

From an accounting perspective, I create an asset (the car) and then reduce it monthly by 1/12*7. I picked 7 years straight depreciation to keep it simple but you could use any method. Using this method my net worth is also reduced by the depreciation which makes sense because the car is worth less. Obviously the car has some value after 7 years, but not enough to matter (I buy $30k cars).
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