Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Greeting to all!
We decided to go with HSA account this year and looking for high deductible low cost insurance.
After looking for plans for 2017, i am very much frustrated to see that lowest price is $1055 for a family of four( parents + 2 kids) in Texas.
It is much more than what we pay for our mortgage. Fortunately we barely use the insurance. Touch wood! We do the physicals for all of us yearly once and kids vaccinations at the most. These high insurance premiums make me go with the route of no insurance and pay the bills when needed for physicals and vaccinations. But then comes the tax penalty for having the insurance.
What do you all do in this scenario? Any alternate low cost options that I don't know of?
Please advise.
[OT comment removed by moderator prudent] I am very much frustrated with ever increasing premiums every year.
We decided to go with HSA account this year and looking for high deductible low cost insurance.
After looking for plans for 2017, i am very much frustrated to see that lowest price is $1055 for a family of four( parents + 2 kids) in Texas.
It is much more than what we pay for our mortgage. Fortunately we barely use the insurance. Touch wood! We do the physicals for all of us yearly once and kids vaccinations at the most. These high insurance premiums make me go with the route of no insurance and pay the bills when needed for physicals and vaccinations. But then comes the tax penalty for having the insurance.
What do you all do in this scenario? Any alternate low cost options that I don't know of?
Please advise.
[OT comment removed by moderator prudent] I am very much frustrated with ever increasing premiums every year.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Depending on your age and income, you may (but I do not think you would in this case) qualify to get a catastrophic health plan which has much higher deductibles, but would have a lower premium.
Foregoing insurance and paying bills as they come is an option, but you would have the penalty tax as you mentioned, and there is the problem if you have a catastrophic claim that could wipe out your finances, especially if you are not able to sign up for coverage after the first incident.
I would also check to see if you qualify for subsidies that could help cover the cost of coverage.
Does your employer (or spouse's employer) offer coverage?
Foregoing insurance and paying bills as they come is an option, but you would have the penalty tax as you mentioned, and there is the problem if you have a catastrophic claim that could wipe out your finances, especially if you are not able to sign up for coverage after the first incident.
I would also check to see if you qualify for subsidies that could help cover the cost of coverage.
Does your employer (or spouse's employer) offer coverage?
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Me Too! My only option in our market is blue cross, over $1,000/mo for me, wife, and son. $13k max out of pocket. I have found the HSA options to only be slightly cheaper than the co-pay plans. I was going to do HSA but am leaning towards a co-pay plan now.
Don't cancel and just pay the penalty, that is not responsible especially if you have children. My dad who is a non-smoker got unexpectedly diagnosed with lung cancer in july of this year. He was very fortunate to have his $1400/month humana health plan. He was able to get great care at Emory in atlanta and is cancer Free!
Your only other option is to go with a co-op like medishare or health cost sharing type deal. Many of these have failed since the ACA but there still are some out there.
Don't cancel and just pay the penalty, that is not responsible especially if you have children. My dad who is a non-smoker got unexpectedly diagnosed with lung cancer in july of this year. He was very fortunate to have his $1400/month humana health plan. He was able to get great care at Emory in atlanta and is cancer Free!
Your only other option is to go with a co-op like medishare or health cost sharing type deal. Many of these have failed since the ACA but there still are some out there.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Based on our income we do not qualify for subsidy and we both are self employed.
So no employer offered group coverage. We are only looking at individual family insurance plans.
Yeah, its better to keep some insurance just in case of any unfortunate events. I totally got it. But for that lowest coverage plan also, premiums are very high.
After ACA, i don't know who is benefiting, but whoever I know ended up paying only higher premiums.
So no employer offered group coverage. We are only looking at individual family insurance plans.
Yeah, its better to keep some insurance just in case of any unfortunate events. I totally got it. But for that lowest coverage plan also, premiums are very high.
After ACA, i don't know who is benefiting, but whoever I know ended up paying only higher premiums.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
The health care billing / insurance system is broken. It was broken before ACA, and got worse with the ACA. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any silver bullets that will fix the problem.
Bottom line in my opinion: you have to have insurance in order to get negotiated rates.
Bottom line in my opinion: you have to have insurance in order to get negotiated rates.
wow. you could be out $26K in a given year. That would qualify as a line item in my household budget. wow. I would be PO'd.InvestorAdam wrote:Me Too! My only option in our market is blue cross, over $1,000/mo for me, wife, and son. $13k max out of pocket. ......
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Would you still be subjected to the penalty if you went through this? Since they're branded as "not insurance."InvestorAdam wrote: Your only other option is to go with a co-op like medishare or health cost sharing type deal. Many of these have failed since the ACA but there still are some out there.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I'm in Texas as well and equally frustrated. I am buying single coverage for a healthy 40 year old non smoker and my costs have gone up about $1100 this year. What choice do I have as the penalty for me is not much lower than the actual health insurance cost, and I get catastrophic coverage which is all I need. I will still be going with the HSA plan though which is $20 a month more than the equivalent non HSA option. It would be nice to build up 20-30 more years of HSA savings and then have a nice nest egg to pull from for my healthcare needs in the future. My health insurance costs have increased $250% since Obamacare has been implemented.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Did you ever buy insurance in the preACA days? It wasn't like back then premiums were cheap, insurance easy to get, and the rates didn't go up 7%+ every year:). Average health insurance premiums employer sponsored health care for a family of 4 is 16k with the employer picking up 12k of that. Health insurance is expensive and it never seems like a good deal. Until you get some 300k dollar bill after some hospital stay. Or an 800k baby. You can argue about various better systems (violate state rights and allow insurance sales across state lines, go single payer and destroy the insurance industry, letting people buy into medicare or the federal health care, ....) but none of them are actionable at your level.shainy wrote:Greeting to all!
We decided to go with HSA account this year and looking for high deductible low cost insurance.
After looking for plans for 2017, i am very much frustrated to see that lowest price is $1055 for a family of four( parents + 2 kids) in Texas.
It is much more than what we pay for our mortgage. Fortunately we barely use the insurance. Touch wood! We do the physicals for all of us yearly once and kids vaccinations at the most. These high insurance premiums make me go with the route of no insurance and pay the bills when needed for physicals and vaccinations. But then comes the tax penalty for having the insurance.
What do you all do in this scenario? Any alternate low cost options that I don't know of?
Please advise.
[OT comment removed] I am very much frustrated with ever increasing premiums every year.
At some level paying 12k/year when you are making 150k+ isn't the end of the world. And if you are not making <150k, you need to up your savings so that you get a subsidy (i.e. contribute 60k to the 401(k) drops your income to say 90k.).
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I'm assuming that you already do this, but you should be able to deduct the insurance premiums on your tax reutrn:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch06.html
And without getting political (as it is off limits and I'll end my comments here), the increases in healthcare premiums (and worker contributions) has been a big problem for the last 15-20 years, as seen via this chart (from 2012):
http://kff.org/health-costs/slide/cumul ... 1999-2012/
Since 1999, healthcare costs have vastly outpaced worker earnings and inflation over the same amount of time.
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch06.html
And without getting political (as it is off limits and I'll end my comments here), the increases in healthcare premiums (and worker contributions) has been a big problem for the last 15-20 years, as seen via this chart (from 2012):
http://kff.org/health-costs/slide/cumul ... 1999-2012/
Since 1999, healthcare costs have vastly outpaced worker earnings and inflation over the same amount of time.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
randomguy wrote: Did you ever buy insurance in the preACA days? It wasn't like back then premiums were cheap, insurance easy to get, and the rates didn't go up 7%+ every year:). Average health insurance premiums employer sponsored health care for a family of 4 is 16k with the employer picking up 12k of that. Health insurance is expensive and it never seems like a good deal. Until you get some 300k dollar bill after some hospital stay. Or an 800k baby. You can argue about various better systems (violate state rights and allow insurance sales across state lines, go single payer and destroy the insurance industry, letting people buy into medicare or the federal health care, ....) but none of them are actionable at your level.
At some level paying 12k/year when you are making 150k+ isn't the end of the world. And if you are not making <150k, you need to up your savings so that you get a subsidy (i.e. contribute 60k to the 401(k) drops your income to say 90k.).
Ohh Yeah, we bought the health insurance preACA days. It was affordable for us ( a high deductible one) as we used it for physicals and vaccinations only. In fact we are never without insurance for that matter. We never felt the burn until recently even the same high deductible plans cost us 3 times of the old plan.
I know its not the end of world for disposing 12k per year on $150k income. What makes me sad is that we have to pay $12k even when you know that you use it for only physicals and vaccinations. As a boglehead, it doesn't appeal to me a bit. Of course there are always risks that we don't know of. But here I am talking only about the known things based on last 10 years of our medical history.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I don't want to be political either. Its only about my frustration with health insurance premiums.b42 wrote:I'm assuming that you already do this, but you should be able to deduct the insurance premiums on your tax reutrn:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch06.html
And without getting political (as it is off limits and I'll end my comments here), the increases in healthcare premiums (and worker contributions) has been a big problem for the last 15-20 years, as seen via this chart (from 2012):
http://kff.org/health-costs/slide/cumul ... 1999-2012/
Since 1999, healthcare costs have vastly outpaced worker earnings and inflation over the same amount of time.
Even if you deduct the health insurance premium from your income, you save the tax on the premium. At 22% tax rate, you save only $2640 on $12k premium that you pay. Still you end up paying $12k - $2.6k = $9.4k.( which is very high for healthy family). Without ACA penalty, I may choose not to get the insurance with this higher premium, and pay cash for all my doctor visits.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I thought you were only able to deduct the amount in excess of 10% of your MAGI. Is that not the case?shainy wrote:I don't want to be political either. Its only about my frustration with health insurance premiums.b42 wrote:I'm assuming that you already do this, but you should be able to deduct the insurance premiums on your tax reutrn:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch06.html
And without getting political (as it is off limits and I'll end my comments here), the increases in healthcare premiums (and worker contributions) has been a big problem for the last 15-20 years, as seen via this chart (from 2012):
http://kff.org/health-costs/slide/cumul ... 1999-2012/
Since 1999, healthcare costs have vastly outpaced worker earnings and inflation over the same amount of time.
Even if you deduct the health insurance premium from your income, you save the tax on the premium. At 22% tax rate, you save only $2640 on $12k premium that you pay. Still you end up paying $12k - $2.6k = $9.4k.( which is very high for healthy family). Without ACA penalty, I may choose not to get the insurance with this higher premium, and pay cash for all my doctor visits.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
No, for those of us who are self employed, health insurance comes off the top of your self employment income. For most other people it can be an itemized deduction to the extent it exceeds 10% of income.I thought you were only able to deduct the amount in excess of 10% of your MAGI. Is that not the case?
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
That's right--see line 29 of Form 1040. It is an above-the-line deduction ("adjustment to income"), which means you don't even need to itemize to claim it, and it reduces both AGI and taxable income.cadreamer2015 wrote:No, for those of us who are self employed, health insurance comes off the top of your self employment income. For most other people it can be an itemized deduction to the extent it exceeds 10% of income.I thought you were only able to deduct the amount in excess of 10% of your MAGI. Is that not the case?
It does not, however, reduce self-employment (FICA) tax (though there are resourceful alternatives, such as the business owner hiring a spouse, that can deal with that as well.)
In general, employees with employer-provided health insurance usually get a bigger tax break than the self-employed do, when all is said and done.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Are you sure? Source? I do not know of any that have failed since the ACA but I may be totally wrong. I was looking into these type of plans for a fall back option in case premiums this year are too ridiculous.InvestorAdam wrote:Your only other option is to go with a co-op like medishare or health cost sharing type deal. Many of these have failed since the ACA but there still are some out there.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Careful as it is not quite so simple as deducting premiums. When you take a deduction it lowers MAGI and so increases your subsidy which then reduces your deduction which increases your MAGI and reduces your subsidy which increases your deduction etc etc. There is a method you have to follow in the instructions or do it via software.b42 wrote:I'm assuming that you already do this, but you should be able to deduct the insurance premiums on your tax reutrn:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch06.html
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I'm not advocating going without insurance, but I disagree that the "negotiated rates" are any bargain.
We're on a high-deductible health plan (with HSA). My wife literally just got off the phone calling around for prices on something. Through our insurance was $300, which we would pay 100% of since we haven't come close to meeting our large deductible. Cash pay is $175. So we'll pay cash and pretend we don't even have insurance. No referral, no need for it being in a certain network.
Most places will give a discount to not deal with insurance reimbursements, just swipe the credit card and be done. You have to weigh this against kicking yourself later if you DO meet your deductible and then the cost could have been covered. (In November, it seems unlikely.)
Of course, we keep the insurance in case of catastrophic medical issues.
And yes, the health care system has been broken with premiums rising far outpacing inflation for decades.
We're on a high-deductible health plan (with HSA). My wife literally just got off the phone calling around for prices on something. Through our insurance was $300, which we would pay 100% of since we haven't come close to meeting our large deductible. Cash pay is $175. So we'll pay cash and pretend we don't even have insurance. No referral, no need for it being in a certain network.
Most places will give a discount to not deal with insurance reimbursements, just swipe the credit card and be done. You have to weigh this against kicking yourself later if you DO meet your deductible and then the cost could have been covered. (In November, it seems unlikely.)
Of course, we keep the insurance in case of catastrophic medical issues.
And yes, the health care system has been broken with premiums rising far outpacing inflation for decades.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Search online for health insurance alternatives. There are plans that aren't technically insurance, but that act similarly and allow you to avoid the penalty/tax.
My family is just dumping it and paying the penalty. I'm living like my parents, grandparents and all of my ancestors did!
JT
My family is just dumping it and paying the penalty. I'm living like my parents, grandparents and all of my ancestors did!
JT
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Was your old plan canceled? As long as you were "grandfathered" in to the old plan - you should have much better rates than the equivalent ACA plans on the exchange.shainy wrote:
Ohh Yeah, we bought the health insurance preACA days. It was affordable for us ( a high deductible one) as we used it for physicals and vaccinations only. In fact we are never without insurance for that matter. We never felt the burn until recently even the same high deductible plans cost us 3 times of the old plan.
I know its not the end of world for disposing 12k per year on $150k income. What makes me sad is that we have to pay $12k even when you know that you use it for only physicals and vaccinations. As a boglehead, it doesn't appeal to me a bit. Of course there are always risks that we don't know of. But here I am talking only about the known things based on last 10 years of our medical history.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I have a grandmothered plan that will cease at the end of 2017. Right now, the alternatives (if one is even available) are bleak. I do not understand the reasoning of allowing grandfathered plans to continue indefinitely, while grandmothered plans have to terminate. I am grandmothered, not grandfathered because sometime after 2010 and before 2013 I decided to raise my deductible to save money but I stayed with BCBS. Ridiculous.
I will be transitioning from a self reliant, responsible citizen to either having to pay a penalty and insure outside of ACA if the state insurance regulators allow that or moving. I don't want to take the chances of no insurance. I am not employed, nor do I need to be. If a plan is available for my area, which seems unlikely beyond 2017, I don't qualify for subsidies.
What a mess.
I will be transitioning from a self reliant, responsible citizen to either having to pay a penalty and insure outside of ACA if the state insurance regulators allow that or moving. I don't want to take the chances of no insurance. I am not employed, nor do I need to be. If a plan is available for my area, which seems unlikely beyond 2017, I don't qualify for subsidies.
What a mess.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
We couldn't grandfather the old plan as it was cancelled /end dated as soon as ACA started.Since then we have to get a new plan every year with increasing premiums. Now the premium is much more than mortgage payment.danaht wrote:Was your old plan canceled? As long as you were "grandfathered" in to the old plan - you should have much better rates than the equivalent ACA plans on the exchange.shainy wrote:
Ohh Yeah, we bought the health insurance preACA days. It was affordable for us ( a high deductible one) as we used it for physicals and vaccinations only. In fact we are never without insurance for that matter. We never felt the burn until recently even the same high deductible plans cost us 3 times of the old plan.
I know its not the end of world for disposing 12k per year on $150k income. What makes me sad is that we have to pay $12k even when you know that you use it for only physicals and vaccinations. As a boglehead, it doesn't appeal to me a bit. Of course there are always risks that we don't know of. But here I am talking only about the known things based on last 10 years of our medical history.
With mortgage payment, we at least build equity in the house,where as with health insurance premium, all the money is going down the drain.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Let's be clear, what ACA brought us isn't insurance anymore. No one should expect to collect on an insurance policy.shainy wrote:with health insurance premium, all the money is going down the drain.
I feel your pain.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Huh? It functions as insurance for me just as when I had employer supplied insurance.Riprap wrote:Let's be clear, what ACA brought us isn't insurance anymore. No one should expect to collect on an insurance policy.shainy wrote:with health insurance premium, all the money is going down the drain.
I feel your pain.
Yeah, preexisting conditions will add to the general costs for all and how small and mean spirited to not favor that (not to mention, something could happen to you, the whole point of insurance).
If you don't like ACA get a job with an employer that provides or subsidizes (with invisible gov't subsidy) insurance. How simple is that?
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Addendum, while I was raising kids I carefully selected my employment based on good insurance benefits. Kids gone now and ACA serves me well. Free market types should appreciate that. Be smart about employment benefits, and if you still want the luxury and independence of self-employment, you have many options beyond those working at megacorp, for tax relief, and complaining about ACA when real culprit is increasing health care costs), I call lame.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I am facing a similar situation. I might have a $14k deductible (2 people on plan). So, if I break a leg toward the end of the year and treatment goes into the next year I am looking at $9k+$9k (premium for 2 years) + $14k+$14k (out of pocket for 2 years) which equals $46k!!!!JoinToday wrote:The health care billing / insurance system is broken. It was broken before ACA, and got worse with the ACA. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any silver bullets that will fix the problem.
Bottom line in my opinion: you have to have insurance in order to get negotiated rates.
wow. you could be out $26K in a given year. That would qualify as a line item in my household budget. wow. I would be PO'd.InvestorAdam wrote:Me Too! My only option in our market is blue cross, over $1,000/mo for me, wife, and son. $13k max out of pocket. ......
I say break a leg because people think you need to have something super serious to have big medical bills (I'm assuming there would be therapy involved, etc). Not true. My Grandfather had a torn aorta (which is serious of course) and that was over $500k!
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
You don't know that you will only use it for physicals and vaccinations, perhaps you will most likely only use it for those things. Another way of looking at is, hopefully I don't get my moneys worth this year! I doubt many people that come down with a serious medical condition are thinking to themselves "I am so glad this happened! finally my insurance is paying off"!shainy wrote:Ohh Yeah, we bought the health insurance preACA days. It was affordable for us ( a high deductible one) as we used it for physicals and vaccinations only. In fact we are never without insurance for that matter. We never felt the burn until recently even the same high deductible plans cost us 3 times of the old plan.
I know its not the end of world for disposing 12k per year on $150k income. What makes me sad is that we have to pay $12k even when you know that you use it for only physicals and vaccinations. As a boglehead, it doesn't appeal to me a bit. Of course there are always risks that we don't know of. But here I am talking only about the known things based on last 10 years of our medical history.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
And if you're paying $9k a year making $72k ($56k after taxes)?randomguy wrote:Did you ever buy insurance in the preACA days? It wasn't like back then premiums were cheap, insurance easy to get, and the rates didn't go up 7%+ every year:). Average health insurance premiums employer sponsored health care for a family of 4 is 16k with the employer picking up 12k of that. Health insurance is expensive and it never seems like a good deal. Until you get some 300k dollar bill after some hospital stay. Or an 800k baby. You can argue about various better systems (violate state rights and allow insurance sales across state lines, go single payer and destroy the insurance industry, letting people buy into medicare or the federal health care, ....) but none of them are actionable at your level.shainy wrote:Greeting to all!
We decided to go with HSA account this year and looking for high deductible low cost insurance.
After looking for plans for 2017, i am very much frustrated to see that lowest price is $1055 for a family of four( parents + 2 kids) in Texas.
It is much more than what we pay for our mortgage. Fortunately we barely use the insurance. Touch wood! We do the physicals for all of us yearly once and kids vaccinations at the most. These high insurance premiums make me go with the route of no insurance and pay the bills when needed for physicals and vaccinations. But then comes the tax penalty for having the insurance.
What do you all do in this scenario? Any alternate low cost options that I don't know of?
Please advise.
[OT comment removed] I am very much frustrated with ever increasing premiums every year.
At some level paying 12k/year when you are making 150k+ isn't the end of the world. And if you are not making <150k, you need to up your savings so that you get a subsidy (i.e. contribute 60k to the 401(k) drops your income to say 90k.).
I would reply who this is benefiting, but that would lead to a removed OT comment.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Many if not most people's plans get cancelled each year. That's been the case for us since the inception of the ACA. Not only does this mean shopping for a new plan but often means shopping for a new primary care doctor. If you want to actually see that doctor a new patient appointment is not covered under 'preventative' so that is an immediate out-of-pocket expense in order to buy into the system for that year.danaht wrote: Was your old plan canceled? As long as you were "grandfathered" in to the old plan - you should have much better rates than the equivalent ACA plans on the exchange.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
So your solution for someone who doesn't need or want a job is to get a job to have access to insurance. Brilliant. Thanks for the helpful advice.blueberry wrote:If you don't like ACA get a job with an employer that provides or subsidizes (with invisible gov't subsidy) insurance. How simple is that?
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Keep in mind that there is no ACA "penalty" or "fine". It is an additional tax for those that don't have qualifying health insurance. And you can defer the tax by arranging things so that you don't get a tax refund, since that is the only way that the IRS can (involuntarily) collect the tax. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek] I wonder if it is possible to get (unqualified) health insurance from a foreign company.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...rkhusky wrote:Keep in mind that there is no ACA "penalty" or "fine". It is an additional tax ...
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I am in no way meant that just because we pay premium we should make full use of it by being sick or some other. All I meant was there should be a choice for us to take some calculated/reasonable risk with a low cost high deductible plan. But all I can see is HIGH COST HIGH DEDUCTIBLE plan. None of the high deductible plans are cheap. Rather they are as expensive as the best preACA plans, but with the lower/lowest coverage I hope you got my point.reriodan wrote:You don't know that you will only use it for physicals and vaccinations, perhaps you will most likely only use it for those things. Another way of looking at is, hopefully I don't get my moneys worth this year! I doubt many people that come down with a serious medical condition are thinking to themselves "I am so glad this happened! finally my insurance is paying off"!shainy wrote:Ohh Yeah, we bought the health insurance preACA days. It was affordable for us ( a high deductible one) as we used it for physicals and vaccinations only. In fact we are never without insurance for that matter. We never felt the burn until recently even the same high deductible plans cost us 3 times of the old plan.
I know its not the end of world for disposing 12k per year on $150k income. What makes me sad is that we have to pay $12k even when you know that you use it for only physicals and vaccinations. As a boglehead, it doesn't appeal to me a bit. Of course there are always risks that we don't know of. But here I am talking only about the known things based on last 10 years of our medical history.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
The self employed crowd really got the shaft on this one. You are drowning in one heck of a terrible risk pool. I don't see a way out of this without finding a job with insurance or early retiring on $12,000 of "income" per year. Can you somehow create your own risk pool?
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Why would free market types appreciate your getting good insurance benefits while employed, and ACA serving you well now? I cannot imagine why any free market types would be happy with ACA being shoved down our throats. Anyone with a cursory understanding of economics should know that the system won't save costs unless health care delivery was reduced. [I don't have confidence that many in Washington (on the right or left) have a cursory understanding of economics.]blueberry wrote:Addendum, while I was raising kids I carefully selected my employment based on good insurance benefits. Kids gone now and ACA serves me well. Free market types should appreciate that.
The real culprit is the system was broken, and ACA made the system worse. The ACA added a layer of bureaucracy on the gov't side, and added costs to the provider side; ACA bent the cost curve, but in the wrong direction. Bureaucracy, inefficiencies, and added patients is adding to general health care cost increases. Uncertainty in original costs is now being addressed via increased premiums as insurers are getting a better handle on the costs. To think we could (a) add bureaucracy, (b) decrease efficiency, (c) added people, (d) keep our doctor, (e) keep our healthplan, and at the same time save money is fantasy.Be smart about employment benefits, and if you still want the luxury and independence of self-employment, you have many options beyond those working at megacorp, for tax relief, and complaining about ACA when real culprit is increasing health care costs), I call lame.
I think people are mad because they were sold a bill of goods. They were led to believe costs would go down, and the health care would remain the same (same doc, same health insurance). They are finding out it is not the case, and some are finding their premiums are increasing significantly, with huge (increased) deductibles.
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
One potential answer for very healthy folks with NO pre existing conditions are one year short term medical plans from companies like United Healthcare. The premiums are about a third the cost but you may be subject to the ACA penalty unless you qualify for an exemption.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
I wonder if a group of folks in this category could create an entity whose sole business is to sell access to the group. Each member who buys access to the group is also an employee who does nothing. The only employee benefit would be health insurance. I have no idea how large a group has to be to in order to qualify to a group health insurance plan.mwm158 wrote:Can you somehow create your own risk pool?
I'm sure this is somehow illegal.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
You find out and I would be interested!Riprap wrote:I wonder if a group of folks in this category could create an entity whose sole business is to sell access to the group. Each member who buys access to the group is also an employee who does nothing. The only employee benefit would be health insurance. I have no idea how large a group has to be to in order to qualify to a group health insurance plan.mwm158 wrote:Can you somehow create your own risk pool?
I'm sure this is somehow illegal.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Agreed. I guess if your property taxes went up at extraordinary rates he would tell you to move. The government shouldn't be forcing us to give up our business and way of life because of a law they couldn't see the consequences of (I'm being kind here).Riprap wrote:So your solution for someone who doesn't need or want a job is to get a job to have access to insurance. Brilliant. Thanks for the helpful advice.blueberry wrote:If you don't like ACA get a job with an employer that provides or subsidizes (with invisible gov't subsidy) insurance. How simple is that?
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
If someone can't afford health insurance because they don't have a job, then the solution is quite simply to get a job. If it's just an inconvenience for them because it is taking up cashflow, then you won't find much sympathy anywhere.Riprap wrote:So your solution for someone who doesn't need or want a job is to get a job to have access to insurance. Brilliant. Thanks for the helpful advice.blueberry wrote:If you don't like ACA get a job with an employer that provides or subsidizes (with invisible gov't subsidy) insurance. How simple is that?
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Why would the "group" be illegal. I think various groups similar to this are legal, except it is not a business. I think professional organizations offer insurance. If someone forms a group (or business) for the sole purpose of offering insurance, some insurance company will assess the risk and offer insurance & premiums associated with the risk. My guess would be that the premium will be reasonably well estimated (high), and the premium will be appropriately priced including margin for uncertainty and profit (premium very high).Riprap wrote:I wonder if a group of folks in this category could create an entity whose sole business is to sell access to the group. Each member who buys access to the group is also an employee who does nothing. The only employee benefit would be health insurance. I have no idea how large a group has to be to in order to qualify to a group health insurance plan.mwm158 wrote:Can you somehow create your own risk pool?
I'm sure this is somehow illegal.
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
There are places where there will likely be no ACA policies available, at any cost, to folks who are forced to purchase insurance on an exchange.fpr4 wrote:If someone can't afford health insurance because they don't have a job, then the solution is quite simply to get a job. If it's just an inconvenience for them because it is taking up cashflow, then you won't find much sympathy anywhere.
"Arizona became the first state where every participating insurer had withdrawn from certain county exchanges. This move has left approximately 10,000 residents in the state with no marketplace plan available to them."
"Phoenix is the market hardest hit by insurer exits, shrinking from eight carriers to one."
http://www.nwitimes.com/ap/washington/l ... ddf15.html
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
My insurance costs almost 10K a year for single coverage, and my income is substantially lessshainy wrote:
I know its not the end of world for disposing 12k per year on $150k income.
Last edited by flyingbison on Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Actually, what we're witnessing is the beginnings of what is known as the "Death spiral." Death spiral is a condition of the insurance market in which costs rapidly increase as a result of changes in the covered population. It is the result of adverse selection in insurance policies in which lower risk policy holders choose to change policies or be uninsured.
Two key mandates in the ACA: 1) Insurers aren't allowed to exclude coverage based on pre-existing conditions. 2) Everyone is required to get coverage or they would be fined. The intent was to try to prevent the death spiral from occurring.
We are witnessing: 1) Younger, healthier people are not buying coverage because they feel it is too expensive, so it is cheaper for them to take the penalty. 2) As the insurers can't cover the sick people from the premiums paid by the healthy, they either have to raise premiums or get out of the market. 3) As the premiums go up, the cycle goes back to #1.
There really isn't a winner to a death spiral. I'm not going to discuss specific fixes, because that goes into the realm of politics and future legislation. I think I can say that regardless who wins the election, there will be efforts to do something about this situation.
The question is what to do about it while we're living through it.
The OP is in a holding pattern this year, because he signed up for a new plan. Next year, there are several options:
1) Get the coverage again, if you can afford it, and if it's available next year. (This depends upon what happens next year.)
2) Drop the coverage and pay the penalty. If you plan to do this, save as much as possible now, because you're effectively going to be self-insuring for a year. If something bad happens, buy coverage again at your earliest opportunity. I don't recommend doing this since you have kids, unless you already have substantial savings and won't be risking not getting them critical care if they need it.
3) Either OP or spouse get a job that has health coverage. This can be a part-time job: Costco, Allegis, Whole Foods, Starbucks, UPS, Staples, REI, Nike, Land's End, and U-Haul are examples of national companies that offer some level of health insurance to part-time employees. Details will vary -- typically you have to work at least 20 hours a week. The plan may not be subsidized for part-time workers, but at least you may be able to buy coverage at a cheaper cost than you can get on your own.
4) Consider medical tourism (under any of the options.) If you're not insured, some procedures may be performed overseas in hospitals with Western standards for much cheaper. Even if you ARE insured, many of these procedures may not be covered by insurance. (Examples: Dentistry, cosmetic surgery, lasik, in-vitro fertilization, bariatrics, etc.) It sounds radical, but the more I'm learning about it, the more I'm open to it. Maybe.
I'm trying to avoid discussing the politics, and this is all very frustrating. The only options I see are: stay covered, drop out, get a job, or leave the country for cheaper medical care overseas if required.
If no coverage is available due to every insurer leaving the market, I have no clue what happens then.
Two key mandates in the ACA: 1) Insurers aren't allowed to exclude coverage based on pre-existing conditions. 2) Everyone is required to get coverage or they would be fined. The intent was to try to prevent the death spiral from occurring.
We are witnessing: 1) Younger, healthier people are not buying coverage because they feel it is too expensive, so it is cheaper for them to take the penalty. 2) As the insurers can't cover the sick people from the premiums paid by the healthy, they either have to raise premiums or get out of the market. 3) As the premiums go up, the cycle goes back to #1.
There really isn't a winner to a death spiral. I'm not going to discuss specific fixes, because that goes into the realm of politics and future legislation. I think I can say that regardless who wins the election, there will be efforts to do something about this situation.
The question is what to do about it while we're living through it.
The OP is in a holding pattern this year, because he signed up for a new plan. Next year, there are several options:
1) Get the coverage again, if you can afford it, and if it's available next year. (This depends upon what happens next year.)
2) Drop the coverage and pay the penalty. If you plan to do this, save as much as possible now, because you're effectively going to be self-insuring for a year. If something bad happens, buy coverage again at your earliest opportunity. I don't recommend doing this since you have kids, unless you already have substantial savings and won't be risking not getting them critical care if they need it.
3) Either OP or spouse get a job that has health coverage. This can be a part-time job: Costco, Allegis, Whole Foods, Starbucks, UPS, Staples, REI, Nike, Land's End, and U-Haul are examples of national companies that offer some level of health insurance to part-time employees. Details will vary -- typically you have to work at least 20 hours a week. The plan may not be subsidized for part-time workers, but at least you may be able to buy coverage at a cheaper cost than you can get on your own.
4) Consider medical tourism (under any of the options.) If you're not insured, some procedures may be performed overseas in hospitals with Western standards for much cheaper. Even if you ARE insured, many of these procedures may not be covered by insurance. (Examples: Dentistry, cosmetic surgery, lasik, in-vitro fertilization, bariatrics, etc.) It sounds radical, but the more I'm learning about it, the more I'm open to it. Maybe.
I'm trying to avoid discussing the politics, and this is all very frustrating. The only options I see are: stay covered, drop out, get a job, or leave the country for cheaper medical care overseas if required.
If no coverage is available due to every insurer leaving the market, I have no clue what happens then.
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Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
If you have any substantial assets (like own a house, investments, savings, etc.) it is very risky to go without medical insurance. One unexpected incident and you could be wiped out.wolf359 wrote:Actually, what we're witnessing is the beginnings of what is known as the "Death spiral." Death spiral is a condition of the insurance market in which costs rapidly increase as a result of changes in the covered population. It is the result of adverse selection in insurance policies in which lower risk policy holders choose to change policies or be uninsured.
Two key mandates in the ACA: 1) Insurers aren't allowed to exclude coverage based on pre-existing conditions. 2) Everyone is required to get coverage or they would be fined. The intent was to try to prevent the death spiral from occurring.
We are witnessing: 1) Younger, healthier people are not buying coverage because they feel it is too expensive, so it is cheaper for them to take the penalty. 2) As the insurers can't cover the sick people from the premiums paid by the healthy, they either have to raise premiums or get out of the market. 3) As the premiums go up, the cycle goes back to #1.
There really isn't a winner to a death spiral. I'm not going to discuss specific fixes, because that goes into the realm of politics and future legislation. I think I can say that regardless who wins the election, there will be efforts to do something about this situation.
The question is what to do about it while we're living through it.
The OP is in a holding pattern this year, because he signed up for a new plan. Next year, there are several options:
1) Get the coverage again, if you can afford it, and if it's available next year. (This depends upon what happens next year.)
2) Drop the coverage and pay the penalty. If you plan to do this, save as much as possible now, because you're effectively going to be self-insuring for a year. If something bad happens, buy coverage again at your earliest opportunity. I don't recommend doing this since you have kids, unless you already have substantial savings and won't be risking not getting them critical care if they need it.
3) Either OP or spouse get a job that has health coverage. This can be a part-time job: Costco, Allegis, Whole Foods, Starbucks, UPS, Staples, REI, Nike, Land's End, and U-Haul are examples of national companies that offer some level of health insurance to part-time employees. Details will vary -- typically you have to work at least 20 hours a week. The plan may not be subsidized for part-time workers, but at least you may be able to buy coverage at a cheaper cost than you can get on your own.
4) Consider medical tourism (under any of the options.) If you're not insured, some procedures may be performed overseas in hospitals with Western standards for much cheaper. Even if you ARE insured, many of these procedures may not be covered by insurance. (Examples: Dentistry, cosmetic surgery, lasik, in-vitro fertilization, bariatrics, etc.) It sounds radical, but the more I'm learning about it, the more I'm open to it. Maybe.
I'm trying to avoid discussing the politics, and this is all very frustrating. The only options I see are: stay covered, drop out, get a job, or leave the country for cheaper medical care overseas if required.
If no coverage is available due to every insurer leaving the market, I have no clue what happens then.
Medical tourism is okay, but if you have a heart attack or get run over by an uninsured driver, I doubt you will have time to be booking flights to Thailand or Costa Rica.
If you and your family are pretty healthy, I think the best option may be to get the cheapest plan you can. That is probably what I will end up doing.
I think this is going to get much worse given the current political climate. But who knows.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
You can always go to the emergency room if you don't have insurance.
There are exemptions to the extra tax for not having insurance. One is if premiums are more than 8% of your income. There are other hardship exemptions that are determined on a case by case basis, such as not being able to find affordable coverage.
There are exemptions to the extra tax for not having insurance. One is if premiums are more than 8% of your income. There are other hardship exemptions that are determined on a case by case basis, such as not being able to find affordable coverage.
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Maybe Obama was right after all. No ACA policies, their health insurance cost goes to zero. Think of the money they save on health insurance. Maybe they saved $5K - $10K per year.Riprap wrote:There are places where there will likely be no ACA policies available, at any cost, to folks who are forced to purchase insurance on an exchange.
"Arizona became the first state where every participating insurer had withdrawn from certain county exchanges. This move has left approximately 10,000 residents in the state with no marketplace plan available to them."
"Phoenix is the market hardest hit by insurer exits, shrinking from eight carriers to one."
http://www.nwitimes.com/ap/washington/l ... ddf15.html
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
If there is no penalty or fine, then it is not a crime or violating federal regulations to not have insurance, it's just a personal choice.munemaker wrote:If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...rkhusky wrote:Keep in mind that there is no ACA "penalty" or "fine". It is an additional tax ...
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Hmmm.... Did anyone predicted this possibility? (sarcasm, before you spend anytime replying)wolf359 wrote:Actually, what we're witnessing is the beginnings of what is known as the "Death spiral." Death spiral is a condition of the insurance market in which costs rapidly increase as a result of changes in the covered population. It is the result of adverse selection in insurance policies in which lower risk policy holders choose to change policies or be uninsured.
I get pretty irritated/mad when obvious outcomes are not apparent or considered by congress & the president.
I have some faith/hope that the mills of god will grind slowly towards a good solution, but unfortunately, many people will be hurt in the process. My faith/hope may be wishful thinking.
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
No one would say we have the best health insurance system, but you would at least think that with the availability of web search, people would cite some facts to back their opinions rather than resorting to agenda-driven anecdotal hyperbole. Despite all the "death spiral" hysteria here, the fact is that group insurance rates have been increasing a fairly steady 5% a year since 2005. In fact, the 5 years before ACA, group rates grew slightly more than the 5 years after. (ACA annual premiums have been less than the CBO originally projected and actually grew less than the group market, so it is unclear whether the large ACA increases in 2017 are a permanent problem or a one-time adjustment).
The real long term problem since at least 1999 is that annual premium increases continue to outpace wage growth and general inflation. The primary cause is the high cost of US health care and pharma, which is twice as great per capita as the average industrialized country. There is no national consensus as to the reasons let alone solutions for this, so the problem seems insoluble.
As for anecdotes: Would somebody please explain to me why pharma developed by US companies, often based on research conducted by government-funded NIH, costs so much more in the US than say Canada?
The real long term problem since at least 1999 is that annual premium increases continue to outpace wage growth and general inflation. The primary cause is the high cost of US health care and pharma, which is twice as great per capita as the average industrialized country. There is no national consensus as to the reasons let alone solutions for this, so the problem seems insoluble.
As for anecdotes: Would somebody please explain to me why pharma developed by US companies, often based on research conducted by government-funded NIH, costs so much more in the US than say Canada?
Re: Frustrated with Health Insurance Premiums for 2017
Problem is that I only want to be a in a group with younger males. Don't want any females with expensive pregnancy costs or old people with health problems jacking up my rates. If you don't limit access to the group, it is too appealing to high risk people. If you start excluding people, then the people not in the group get much higher rates.Riprap wrote:I wonder if a group of folks in this category could create an entity whose sole business is to sell access to the group. Each member who buys access to the group is also an employee who does nothing. The only employee benefit would be health insurance. I have no idea how large a group has to be to in order to qualify to a group health insurance plan.mwm158 wrote:Can you somehow create your own risk pool?
I'm sure this is somehow illegal.