Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

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mcraepat9
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:10 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:Recruiters are your friends. We want to fill a role more than anyone. Help us help you.
NoGambleNoFuture - Nice to hear perspective from an actual in-house recruiter. I understand the "don't give a range" advice, but what are your thoughts about disclosing salary history to an in-house recruiter? Recruiters want to fill roles but are paid by the employer -- hardly a "friend" to an applicant.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

remomnyc
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by remomnyc » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:23 am

KlangFool wrote:
covertfantom wrote:
corwin wrote:Asking for a salary expectation is a way to make sure neither side is wasting time. Giving a range is acceptable. However, when a future employer asks for your salary history it's like a car dealer asking you how much money you have in your bank account; it only hurts your ability to negotiate.

I recently interviewed someone who told me he would have to take a pay cut to work at my company. I knew immediately we didn't want him. He would never be happy and he would make us miserable too.
Yikes. What a red flag.... what on Earth would compel someone to take a pay CUT?
covertfantom,

The correct question is why on earth somebody will tell the interviewer this? The person is stupid. Why would anyone want to hire somebody this stupid?

KlangFool
carolinaman,

Did you tell the interviewer that you are taking a pay cut? That is my issue.

KlangFool[/quote]

Klangfool,

I was in a situation where we got to salary and I told them what I wanted (which was what I was making). I was told the max the position paid was $20k less. I told them I would be taking a pay cut and could not consider it without knowing the full benefits package. In the end, company got the job upgraded so they could match my salary, threw in a signing bonus to compensate for my unvested pension, and gave me an extra week of vacation. By the way, I would have accepted the job even with the lower salary because I would have reduced my hours significantly and increased my benefits (401k match, pension, health care) considerably. I would never have gotten any of the extras if I hadn't alerted them to my pay cut.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:43 am

remomnyc wrote: Klangfool,

I was in a situation where we got to salary and I told them what I wanted (which was what I was making). I was told the max the position paid was $20k less. I told them I would be taking a pay cut and could not consider it without knowing the full benefits package. In the end, company got the job upgraded so they could match my salary, threw in a signing bonus to compensate for my unvested pension, and gave me an extra week of vacation. By the way, I would have accepted the job even with the lower salary because I would have reduced my hours significantly and increased my benefits (401k match, pension, health care) considerably. I would never have gotten any of the extras if I hadn't alerted them to my pay cut.
remomnyc,

The sequence of what you said is very important.

1) You told them what you want in term of salary.

2) They told you what they can offer.

3) Then, you told them that it will be a pay cut. But, you did not tell them that you are willing to take a pay cut.

4) They upgraded their offer since they DO NOT KNOW whether you are willing to take the job offer with a pay cut.

Now, compare the above sequence with

1) You told them that you are willing to take a pay cut for the job immediately.

Will they upgrade the job offer since they do not need to do that?

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference.

KlangFool

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:02 am

mcraepat9 wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:Recruiters are your friends. We want to fill a role more than anyone. Help us help you.
NoGambleNoFuture - Nice to hear perspective from an actual in-house recruiter. I understand the "don't give a range" advice, but what are your thoughts about disclosing salary history to an in-house recruiter? Recruiters want to fill roles but are paid by the employer -- hardly a "friend" to an applicant.
I don't think it's necessary in most cases, though in some it would be. Lead the discussion away from what you've made historically and towards what it's going to take for you to accept the new role. Usually doesn't matter what someone made historically, we only push for that info in rare instances when the expectations of what they're looking for far exceed reality.

I would highlight that salary expectations should be discussed early on in the interview process. We don't want to waste time with the interview process on someone we cannot afford or who is going to be drastically out of what we're looking to spend. We should never be in an spot where we've had multiple phone interviews, had candidates onsite, and are ready to make an offer when we realize that we cannot afford them. Comp shouldn't be a surprise at any point along the way.

mcraepat9
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:24 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
mcraepat9 wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:Recruiters are your friends. We want to fill a role more than anyone. Help us help you.
NoGambleNoFuture - Nice to hear perspective from an actual in-house recruiter. I understand the "don't give a range" advice, but what are your thoughts about disclosing salary history to an in-house recruiter? Recruiters want to fill roles but are paid by the employer -- hardly a "friend" to an applicant.
I don't think it's necessary in most cases, though in some it would be. Lead the discussion away from what you've made historically and towards what it's going to take for you to accept the new role. Usually doesn't matter what someone made historically, we only push for that info in rare instances when the expectations of what they're looking for far exceed reality.

I would highlight that salary expectations should be discussed early on in the interview process. We don't want to waste time with the interview process on someone we cannot afford or who is going to be drastically out of what we're looking to spend. We should never be in an spot where we've had multiple phone interviews, had candidates onsite, and are ready to make an offer when we realize that we cannot afford them. Comp shouldn't be a surprise at any point along the way.
Makes sense. Prospective applicants don't want to waste their valuable time with employers unwilling to meet their expectations as well.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

LarryAllen
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by LarryAllen » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:32 am

As an owner I want to know as it makes it easy for me. If you are an employee I really want you can get away with not telling me. However, if two people are equal and one gives salary history you could be skipped over in favor of the other candidate.

I would probably go with something like "I am reluctant to give my salary history as I feel I have been under paid. In my research I believe a starting salary of $___ is reasonable and would be acceptable to me."

I would be honest though rather than making up fraudulent numbers. Little white lies can burn you bad some day so don't do it.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:33 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote: I would highlight that salary expectations should be discussed early on in the interview process. We don't want to waste time with the interview process on someone we cannot afford or who is going to be drastically out of what we're looking to spend. We should never be in an spot where we've had multiple phone interviews, had candidates onsite, and are ready to make an offer when we realize that we cannot afford them. Comp shouldn't be a surprise at any point along the way.
NoGambleNoFuture,

So, do you as an internal recruiter disclose the salary range of the job first before asking the candidate of their salary expectation? Or, your company policy stop you from doing that?

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:36 am

LarryAllen wrote:As an owner I want to know as it makes it easy for me. If you are an employee I really want you can get away with not telling me. However, if two people are equal and one gives salary history you could be skipped over in favor of the other candidate.
LarryAllen,

So, you prefer to hire a dumber candidate that do not know how to negotiate? In my case, it will be the reverse.

<<As an owner I want to know as it makes it easy for me.>>

Easy come easy go.

KlangFool

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:41 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
hcj wrote:Am I the only one who lies and just says a number close to what I want them to pay me?
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

nimo956
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by nimo956 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:45 am

KlangFool wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote: I would highlight that salary expectations should be discussed early on in the interview process. We don't want to waste time with the interview process on someone we cannot afford or who is going to be drastically out of what we're looking to spend. We should never be in an spot where we've had multiple phone interviews, had candidates onsite, and are ready to make an offer when we realize that we cannot afford them. Comp shouldn't be a surprise at any point along the way.
NoGambleNoFuture,

So, do you as an internal recruiter disclose the salary range of the job first before asking the candidate of their salary expectation? Or, your company policy stop you from doing that?

KlangFool
I've had potential employers do this during the initial phone screen and I much prefer it (I think it says a lot about what kind of company they are to work for). They say, this is the salary range for the position, is that acceptable to you?
Salary history never came up.
50% VTI / 50% VXUS

DoubleClick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:49 am

KlangFool wrote: NoGambleNoFuture,

So, do you as an internal recruiter disclose the salary range of the job first before asking the candidate of their salary expectation? Or, your company policy stop you from doing that?
+1. NoGambleNoFuture, I am curious about this point too. I understand the need to discuss salary expectations up front, but why are you insisting that the employee put out a number first, when it is a well-known negotiation idea that whoever puts out a number first is at a disadvantage? The asymmetry is even worse in this case because the company knows salaries for hundreds or thousands of their employees and their competitors' employees through research, while the employee typically has access to only one or perhaps two or three.

It's really good to hear from the perspective of an actual internal recruiter, so thank you for very informative posts thus far!

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
I took a pay it to switch industries/roles and now I make 5x what I was making 3 years ago... It's not uncommon to make a lateral move when switch roles or industries and even sometimes a pay cut when you're hungry enough.

To the OP, if you're talking to an in house recruiter just be open and honest with what you want. Decide in your mind what you're really looking for and willing to accept and tell the recruiter. Don't give us a range, we'll come in at the low end 100% of the time.

As much as candidates want to play games and go back and forth and be big bad negotiators, we've got other things to do and we'd rather just get the role filled and move on. Every time we increase an offer we need to go back and get an offer completely reapproved and trust me we don't feel like doing that over and over again. We're the good guys, just tell us what you're looking for and we'll do our best to make it happen. In your instance, say $125k if that's what will make you thrilled.

We almost never send out blind offers, and almost always know the candidate is going to sign as soon as we get an offer approved because we insist on having those "what's it going to take for you to accept" conversations early on.

To all of those suggesting "whatever you do, don't give them a number first make them give you the first offer"... If you do this you're just wasting everyone's time. We have candidates sometimes that just have this mentality no matter what so well just come in on the lowest end of our ranges and they'll reject that offer 100% of the time. Then we'll have to go back to the "okay, we told you to tell us what you were looking for and you didn't so would you like to tell us now" type conversations.

Recruiters are your friends. We want to fill a role more than anyone. Help us help you.
Sounds great in theory if the only variable the candidate cares about is salary. In reality there will be details that come out through the interview process that would affect the overall picture of the role and thus raise or lower the salary requirements to accept. Recruiters rarely have all of this detailed information about the role (accountabilities, hours, travel requirements, vacation, WFH, etc. could all change the salary requirements) when salary requirements are initially discussed. How would it be reasonable to give one number at that point?
Last edited by BW1985 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

kamerchick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by kamerchick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:17 pm

I usually include current salary and average bonus and put that in the “current salary field.” So far, all the offers I’ve gotten were at least 30% more than my current salaries in the same geographical area. If the company you are applying for has an established pay structure (job levels, salary range, etc…) it does not matter how much you currently make. With less-established businesses it may be an issue. Checkout Glassdoor to see if previous employees have reported salaries information for the job you want. Remember to always negotiate better terms even if you are satisfied with the offer and the benefits provided.

theluckyone
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by theluckyone » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:25 pm

Effective July 2018, employers in Massachusetts will no longer be legally able to ask about prior salary history. It will be interesting to see how quickly this type of law spreads across the country.

student
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by student » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:41 pm

KlangFool wrote: Did you tell the interviewer that you are taking a pay cut? That is my issue.
I know this question wasn't for me. I work at a university. When someone moves from an industrial position to an academic position, frequently it involves a pay cut. Recently, we have a new faculty member who joined us and took a pay cut.

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:50 pm

KlangFool wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote: I would highlight that salary expectations should be discussed early on in the interview process. We don't want to waste time with the interview process on someone we cannot afford or who is going to be drastically out of what we're looking to spend. We should never be in an spot where we've had multiple phone interviews, had candidates onsite, and are ready to make an offer when we realize that we cannot afford them. Comp shouldn't be a surprise at any point along the way.
NoGambleNoFuture,

So, do you as an internal recruiter disclose the salary range of the job first before asking the candidate of their salary expectation? Or, your company policy stop you from doing that?

KlangFool
We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously...

I just mean in the initial conversations we need to be confident we're in the right ballpark. For example, we're not going to have a role that is budgeted up to $100k and then at the very end of the recruiting process find out the candidate isn't willing to take less than $140k.

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:56 pm

DoubleClick wrote:
KlangFool wrote: NoGambleNoFuture,

So, do you as an internal recruiter disclose the salary range of the job first before asking the candidate of their salary expectation? Or, your company policy stop you from doing that?
+1. NoGambleNoFuture, I am curious about this point too. I understand the need to discuss salary expectations up front, but why are you insisting that the employee put out a number first, when it is a well-known negotiation idea that whoever puts out a number first is at a disadvantage? The asymmetry is even worse in this case because the company knows salaries for hundreds or thousands of their employees and their competitors' employees through research, while the employee typically has access to only one or perhaps two or three.

It's really good to hear from the perspective of an actual internal recruiter, so thank you for very informative posts thus far!
Same here - I don't mean in our first conversation we need to get into discussions on potential offers... the reality of the matter is that we make offers to less than 2% of all candidates. We just need to know we're not wasting our time with someone out of our ballpark and vice versa. As someone on the recruiting team, we're the good guys (at least that's how we treat it). We want to hire people - that's how our performance is measured. It's not the end of the world for you as a candidate if you say "my dream scenario is $140k - if you can get that I will accept an offer." Even if that number is high, many times we'll do our best to get a candidate the number it's going to take... We don't say "he said he'll take $140k, let's offer $120k and hope we settle in the middle at $130k" - we aren't selling cars here, we're trying to fill roles.

CFOKevin
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by CFOKevin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:07 pm

I've hired hundreds into small, high growth tech companies and have switched jobs more than a handful of times, myself.

I like to know current compensation because I like to make offers that are easily accepted. Base salaries need to be kept in line across comparable positions and often other benefits (and stock options) allow for negotiation around the edges.

When asked myself, I always give base, bonus target and % company ownership in options. I also share info I know regarding the local market and have never been disappointed in an offer.

And, while we are talking engineering, in sales positions specifically, sharing W2 info is almost standard. Hiring a salesperson without verifying current comp is close to hiring malpractice, in my opinion.

Kevin

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:16 pm

Also wanted to highlight there is a ton of info available to employers - we even have multiple people that are compensation specialists. Compensation pros use tools like Radford to segment out comparable companies and level roles so we have true ranges for roles. We're not blindly giving out offers or just taking candidates word at face value with no checks,...

We have a tonnnnn of information at our fingertips which is significantly more valuable that you using GLASSDOOR or searching the Internet for "average software engineer salary" or something like that. And our data is concrete from similar roles in similar companies.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:17 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously...

I just mean in the initial conversations we need to be confident we're in the right ballpark. For example, we're not going to have a role that is budgeted up to $100k and then at the very end of the recruiting process find out the candidate isn't willing to take less than $140k.
NoGambleNoFuture,

<<We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously... >>

Why not? You expect the candidate to state their salary requirement,

<< I just mean in the initial conversations we need to be confident we're in the right ballpark.>>

Ditto. If you state the salary range for the job, the candidate does not have to waste their time if you are not in the right ballpark.

<<For example, we're not going to have a role that is budgeted up to $100k >>

Bingo. You have a budget. You know the salary range of the job. But, you choose not to tell the candidate. Meanwhile, you want to know the expected salary range from the candidate.

Who is playing a game here?

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:19 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:Also wanted to highlight there is a ton of info available to employers - we even have multiple people that are compensation specialists. Compensation pros use tools like Radford to segment out comparable companies and level roles so we have true ranges for roles. We're not blindly giving out offers or just taking candidates word at face value with no checks,...

We have a tonnnnn of information at our fingertips which is significantly more valuable that you using GLASSDOOR or searching the Internet for "average software engineer salary" or something like that. And our data is concrete from similar roles in similar companies.
NoGambleNoFuture,

Then, there should be no reason to ask the candidate about their salary requirement. Then, why do it?

The answer is obvious. It is not done for the benefit of the candidate.

KlangFool

DoubleClick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:19 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:Same here - I don't mean in our first conversation we need to get into discussions on potential offers... the reality of the matter is that we make offers to less than 2% of all candidates. We just need to know we're not wasting our time with someone out of our ballpark and vice versa. As someone on the recruiting team, we're the good guys (at least that's how we treat it). We want to hire people - that's how our performance is measured. It's not the end of the world for you as a candidate if you say "my dream scenario is $140k - if you can get that I will accept an offer." Even if that number is high, many times we'll do our best to get a candidate the number it's going to take...
Interesting. Any leads on how a prospective employee can come up with their dream scenario number that works best to their advantage? Especially given prospective employees do not have that compensation information that employers have, as you said?

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:28 pm

KlangFool wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously...

I just mean in the initial conversations we need to be confident we're in the right ballpark. For example, we're not going to have a role that is budgeted up to $100k and then at the very end of the recruiting process find out the candidate isn't willing to take less than $140k.
NoGambleNoFuture,

<<We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously... >>

Why not? You expect the candidate to state their salary requirement,

<< I just mean in the initial conversations we need to be confident we're in the right ballpark.>>

Ditto. If you state the salary range for the job, the candidate does not have to waste their time if you are not in the right ballpark.

<<For example, we're not going to have a role that is budgeted up to $100k >>

Bingo. You have a budget. You know the salary range of the job. But, you choose not to tell the candidate. Meanwhile, you want to know the expected salary range from the candidate.

Who is playing a game here?

KlangFool
In a successful negotiation both sides end up feeling like they won, right? We know what fair market value is for a role and that's what we'll stay within... Our goal is to find out that were at least close and the candidate isn't unrealistic, doesn't currently have golden handcuffs, etc.

I'm not playing games. I've had differing opinions in three straight talent based threads here and try to be innovative, not archaic, in the battle for talent: (1) I don't believe in traditional reference checks, 2) I don't think contractors should markup their hourly rate 100%, 3) I think candidates shouldn't be afraid to say what exactly they way - (even if they're shooting high).

We've got better things to do. It's really easy to create a negative impression before you even receive an offer...

DoubleClick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:39 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:We know what fair market value is for a role and that's what we'll stay within... Our goal is to find out that were at least close and the candidate isn't unrealistic, doesn't currently have golden handcuffs, etc.
The candidate typically doesn't have access to Radford and doesn't know their fair market value. It seems to me like asking for their range further compounds that asymmetry and is to their disadvantage. Would you say it looks like that from your perspective?

On a different note, what you say about wanting to know about golden handcuffs and such upfront makes sense. So what do you do for candidates with golden handcuffs? In what form is the compensation, base or bonus or signing bonuses?
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:I'm not playing games. I've had differing opinions in three straight talent based threads here and try to be innovative, not archaic, in the battle for talent: (1) I don't believe in traditional reference checks, 2) I don't think contractors should markup their hourly rate 100%, 3) I think candidates shouldn't be afraid to say what exactly they way - (even if they're shooting high).
Your perspective is valuable! Question for you: if a candidate states a number that's say, 30% over the top end of your range, how do you proceed? Do you tell them they're being unrealistic? Do you get a sense that the candidate is being greedy, and turn them away, not wanting to waste time on them? Do you work with them?

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:40 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote: In a successful negotiation both sides end up feeling like they won, right? We know what fair market value is for a role and that's what we'll stay within... Our goal is to find out that were at least close and the candidate isn't unrealistic, doesn't currently have golden handcuffs, etc.

I'm not playing games. I've had differing opinions in three straight talent based threads here and try to be innovative, not archaic, in the battle for talent: (1) I don't believe in traditional reference checks, 2) I don't think contractors should markup their hourly rate 100%, 3) I think candidates shouldn't be afraid to say what exactly they way - (even if they're shooting high).

We've got better things to do. It's really easy to create a negative impression before you even receive an offer...

NoGambleNoFuture,

<< In a successful negotiation both sides end up feeling like they won, right? We know what fair market value is for a role and that's what we'll stay within..>>

<< 3) I think candidates shouldn't be afraid to say what exactly they way - (even if they're shooting high).>>

<<We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously... >>

<<We've got better things to do. It's really easy to create a negative impression before you even receive an offer>>

Please note that you had created a bad impression for your employer. We would not apply to your employer. And, we would know this easily via our contacts.

KlangFool

DaftInvestor
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DaftInvestor » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:43 pm

BW1985 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
hcj wrote:Am I the only one who lies and just says a number close to what I want them to pay me?
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
The post-hire background check is to get someone in quickly and then complete the background check later - the job is contingent upon the check clearing. Most companies outsource these and they can take more than a week. I used to work for a company that did this and one person was let go for having lied about his prior salary while another was let go for having lied about his education.

TigerNest
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by TigerNest » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:48 pm

I've always said "My employer has asked me to keep compensation information confidential, and I want to respect their wishes. What range of compensation do you expect to provide for this role?"

This has always worked for me. The employer should always provide the first number.

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:52 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
BW1985 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
hcj wrote:Am I the only one who lies and just says a number close to what I want them to pay me?
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
The post-hire background check is to get someone in quickly and then complete the background check later - the job is contingent upon the check clearing. Most companies outsource these and they can take more than a week. I used to work for a company that did this and one person was let go for having lied about his prior salary while another was let go for having lied about his education.
I guess companies operate in different ways. Personally I would not give notice to my current employer until my background check came back and the company cleared me for hire. Who knows what they're going to turn up and if it's even true or not.

Also really curious how the third party could verify your salary history on their own?
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:00 pm

KlangFool wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote: In a successful negotiation both sides end up feeling like they won, right? We know what fair market value is for a role and that's what we'll stay within... Our goal is to find out that were at least close and the candidate isn't unrealistic, doesn't currently have golden handcuffs, etc.

I'm not playing games. I've had differing opinions in three straight talent based threads here and try to be innovative, not archaic, in the battle for talent: (1) I don't believe in traditional reference checks, 2) I don't think contractors should markup their hourly rate 100%, 3) I think candidates shouldn't be afraid to say what exactly they way - (even if they're shooting high).

We've got better things to do. It's really easy to create a negative impression before you even receive an offer...

NoGambleNoFuture,

<< In a successful negotiation both sides end up feeling like they won, right? We know what fair market value is for a role and that's what we'll stay within..>>

<< 3) I think candidates shouldn't be afraid to say what exactly they way - (even if they're shooting high).>>

<<We'll never say "our range for this role is $100k to $120k", obviously... >>

<<We've got better things to do. It's really easy to create a negative impression before you even receive an offer>>

Please note that you had created a bad impression for your employer. We would not apply to your employer. And, we would know this easily via our contacts.

KlangFool
I honestly don't think you would feel that way leaving a conversation with one of our recruiters,... ;)

cherijoh
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by cherijoh » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:04 pm

BW1985 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
hcj wrote:Am I the only one who lies and just says a number close to what I want them to pay me?
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
It depends on what is meant by "post-hire". On the job already - I agree that is nuts. But many companies make offers contingent upon passing a background check. So if "post-hire" really means "post-offer" then it happens all the time.

DaftInvestor
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DaftInvestor » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:07 pm

BW1985 wrote: Also really curious how the third party could verify your salary history on their own?
The third party will call you and ask for W2's.

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:09 pm

cherijoh wrote:
BW1985 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
hcj wrote:Am I the only one who lies and just says a number close to what I want them to pay me?
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
It depends on what is meant by "post-hire". On the job already - I agree that is nuts. But many companies make offers contingent upon passing a background check. So if "post-hire" really means "post-offer" then it happens all the time.
From the context I believe post-hire means on the job. Post-offer is standard procedure, which upon passing you are then cleared to hire.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:11 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
BW1985 wrote: Also really curious how the third party could verify your salary history on their own?
The third party will call you and ask for W2's.
Ah, right, so they need you to provide it. That would be confidential. Exactly why I would never give notice until cleared to hire.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

Topic Author
covertfantom
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by covertfantom » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:40 pm

Got the offer... they came in a bit at the low end of my range and the benefits seem pretty basic. Anyone know what to make of an offer of "$5,000 in stock options"? It's a small company and obviously not publicly trade. How the heck am I supposed to value that... let alone turn it into cash?

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:45 pm

covertfantom wrote:Got the offer... they came in a bit at the low end of my range and the benefits seem pretty basic. Anyone know what to make of an offer of "$5,000 in stock options"? It's a small company and obviously not publicly trade. How the heck am I supposed to value that... let alone turn it into cash?
covertfantom,

It is worth $0.

KlangFool

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:50 pm

covertfantom wrote:Got the offer... they came in a bit at the low end of my range and the benefits seem pretty basic. Anyone know what to make of an offer of "$5,000 in stock options"? It's a small company and obviously not publicly trade. How the heck am I supposed to value that... let alone turn it into cash?
This is why we don't send blind offers... Now, take the time to figure out what an offer you'll accept looks like and tell them exactly what you're going to need. In most cases the recruiter and/or you could have avoided this unnecessary delay by having the proper conversations proactively.

Options are worth $0.00 unless you're at a massive company and/or you have tons of equity that you'll be able to sell on the black market or something... As very few companies ever IPO. At your level it's not a significant enough amount. It's just another lever, though.

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gunn_show
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by gunn_show » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:08 pm

DoubleClick wrote:
slayed wrote: Giving a range will result in you getting an offer near the bottom of the range you give them so you might as well give them one number and make it a little higher than you think.
+1. Never give a range. Give a target, and start high.

slayed wrote:You either learn to negotiate or you accept a career of being underpaid.
+10. So very true.
110% agree on both of these quotes/responses. If you don't learn to negotiate well, you will always be starting behind the 8 ball so to speak. "mcraepat9" also made very excellent remarks regarding top performers and how to act. This has worked well for me, personally, in changing jobs and increasing my total comp.

And the recruiter link from Watty is spot on for response tactics.
So is this one: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Editing to respond to this too
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:I would highlight that salary expectations should be discussed early on in the interview process. We don't want to waste time with the interview process on someone we cannot afford or who is going to be drastically out of what we're looking to spend. We should never be in an spot where we've had multiple phone interviews, had candidates onsite, and are ready to make an offer when we realize that we cannot afford them. Comp shouldn't be a surprise at any point along the way.
+10000% .. I can often get salary/comp ranges from a recruiter, internal or external, before I even get on a phone screen. As a top performer at a big tech firm, I don't want to waste their time, and especially my time, doing any calls if the expected comp is not feasible. Most recruiters are up front about it because they have 100s of candidates to screen and know that sales comp is very variable and competitive. People would be surprised that all it takes is confidence to get most info you want sooner than you think. Most just don't ask.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten

DoubleClick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:24 pm

Thanks for posting the kalzumeus link. I've read it before, and it's fantastic, but couldn't find the link.
gunn_show wrote:+10000% .. I can often get salary/comp ranges from a recruiter, internal or external, before I even get on a phone screen.
Would you mind saying what words you use get the ranges out of a recruiter (especially internal)? I find it very hard to get this from internal recruiters. They always seem to turn the question back on the candidate, or give ranges that are so wide as to be useless, or deflect it in some other way that I cannot foresee and quickly respond to (eg: we'll leavel you after the interview, etc.).

cherijoh
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by cherijoh » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:36 pm

BW1985 wrote:
cherijoh wrote:
BW1985 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
hcj wrote:Am I the only one who lies and just says a number close to what I want them to pay me?
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
It depends on what is meant by "post-hire". On the job already - I agree that is nuts. But many companies make offers contingent upon passing a background check. So if "post-hire" really means "post-offer" then it happens all the time.
From the context I believe post-hire means on the job. Post-offer is standard procedure, which upon passing you are then cleared to hire.
In the context of lying about your previous salary (the point of DaftInvestors comment) and then having it come out in a background check, does it really matter whether or not you started the job and were fired or simply had the offer withdrawn? IMO you are splitting hairs about the timing of the background check.

delamer
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by delamer » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:02 pm

cherijoh wrote:
BW1985 wrote:
cherijoh wrote:
BW1985 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
And then if they ask for confirmation? Or worse yet - if they put you through a post-hire background check you will be fired.
If working through a recruiter I would ask the recruiter if the company will require W2 or paystubs in order to clear for hire. Personally I find that ridiculous and luckily have never encountered that. Never heard of a 'post-hire background check' either, why would you wait? Background checks have always been done prior to hiring in my experience, which intuitively makes more sense.
It depends on what is meant by "post-hire". On the job already - I agree that is nuts. But many companies make offers contingent upon passing a background check. So if "post-hire" really means "post-offer" then it happens all the time.
From the context I believe post-hire means on the job. Post-offer is standard procedure, which upon passing you are then cleared to hire.


In the context of lying about your previous salary (the point of DaftInvestors comment) and then having it come out in a background check, does it really matter whether or not you started the job and were fired or simply had the offer withdrawn? IMO you are splitting hairs about the timing of the background check.
Sure, it can matter. If the offer is withdrawn, then you can probably hang onto your old/existing job. If you've already started the new job, then you are unemployed.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:16 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
I honestly don't think you would feel that way leaving a conversation with one of our recruiters,... ;)
NoGambleNoFuture,

1) Why would I talk to a recruiter? I deal with the hiring manager directly. The salary negotiation is done. The recruiter is just there to formally seal the agreement.

2) It is a well known fact that a candidate can get a better deal from the hiring manager than the recruiter. BTW, I was a hiring manager for 10+ years.

KlangFool

BigSaver
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BigSaver » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:37 pm

OP: More opinions for ya...

This should be a verbal chat, not an email exchange. Have a conversation with the hiring manager about their level of interest, and whether an offer is forthcoming. Don't discuss current or future salary until they say they are preparing an offer and are stuck on salary.

At that point, ask them (verbally) to tell you what they think you are worth to them. Again, verbally, not in an email. Make them give a number first. Be prepared to negotiate after that with points as to why you are worth more than that if you feel it is too low. If it's not too low, then great, problem solved.

As to whether to share your current salary (and btw NOT your full salary history), I would withhold that as long as possible. Their offer should be based on your skills & experience combined with their needs & policies. Since you aren't asking them to meet your current salary (and btw you can say that), it is basically irrelevant. If they press and say they cannot make an offer without knowing your current salary, well, that's surprising. I'd be tempted to say: "I'm looking to make a change and feel I can benefit your company with my skills and experience, and I look forward to a specific offer from you."

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:53 pm

KlangFool wrote:
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
I honestly don't think you would feel that way leaving a conversation with one of our recruiters,... ;)
NoGambleNoFuture,

1) Why would I talk to a recruiter? I deal with the hiring manager directly. The salary negotiation is done. The recruiter is just there to formally seal the agreement.

2) It is a well known fact that a candidate can get a better deal from the hiring manager than the recruiter. BTW, I was a hiring manager for 10+ years.

KlangFool
Candidates get 0 offers from hiring managers at our firm. All negotiations and offers are strictly done by internal recruiters. Hiring managers are there to interview and assess whether a candidate can do a job, not negotiate offers. We are there to find and close candidates, not code or balance the books.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:56 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Candidates get 0 offers from hiring managers at our firm. All negotiations and offers are strictly done by internal recruiters. Hiring managers are there to interview and assess whether a candidate can do a job, not negotiate offers. We are there to find and close candidates, not code or balance the books.
NoGambleNoFuture,

That is what you choose to believe. If not, there is no reason for you to have a job.

<<Candidates get 0 offers from hiring managers at our firm.>>

I had worked for a very long time wiht many employers. I have never come across any employer that fit your description.

KlangFool

P.S.: At my current job, the internal recruiter thought that he is negotiating with me. But, I had been told by the hiring manager about the salary range and what they can offer. So, I just play along and "negotiate" with the internal recruiter for the formality.

LarryAllen
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by LarryAllen » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:40 pm

KlangFool wrote:
LarryAllen wrote:As an owner I want to know as it makes it easy for me. If you are an employee I really want you can get away with not telling me. However, if two people are equal and one gives salary history you could be skipped over in favor of the other candidate.
LarryAllen,

So, you prefer to hire a dumber candidate that do not know how to negotiate? In my case, it will be the reverse.

<<As an owner I want to know as it makes it easy for me.>>

Easy come easy go.

KlangFool

I guess so. I am too busy making money to negotiate with someone who isn't even hired yet. If they want to negotiate from day one is everything going to be a negotiation? I have no time for that. I presume I am not the only owner that thinks like I think. I appreciate you think the opposite. Makes the world go round.

casualflower
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by casualflower » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:19 pm

Much of this thread seems to be based on how employees can avoid being underpaid and employers can avoid overpaying. But what is the appropriate amount of compensation? It's sounds like it's largely based on what other people are getting. But shouldn't it be what the person thinks is fair for themselves? And what the value an employer thinks a person brings to the company?

If I make $60K and am happy and live the life I want to, why does it matter if I could have negotiated harder and gotten $70K? If an employer knows a position at $70K will return a sufficient profit, what try to lowball at $60K?

sfchris
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by sfchris » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:10 pm

I assume you guys are aware of the salary database called The Work Number, run by Equifax?

https://www.theworknumber.com/verifiers/

I was appalled to find out that employer feeds all of my paystubs into there so I guess I am out of luck when negotiating?

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:13 am

metrunt wrote:
If I make $60K and am happy and live the life I want to, why does it matter if I could have negotiated harder and gotten $70K? If an employer knows a position at $70K will return a sufficient profit, what try to lowball at $60K?
metrunt,

1) If you have never negotiated, how would you know that 70K is the limit? What if the number is 80K or higher?

<<If I make $60K and am happy and live the life I want to,>>

2) Why would you settle for less than what the employer willing to pay? Aka, what your work worth?

3) You have limited working life of 20+ years if you are lucky. What if it is cut short? Isn't it makes sense to maximize your earning potential by negotiating?

This is Boglehead. We shop for the lowest cost investment. So, won't it makes sense for us to learn to maximize our earning potential by negotiation?

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:17 am

sfchris wrote:I assume you guys are aware of the salary database called The Work Number, run by Equifax?

https://www.theworknumber.com/verifiers/

I was appalled to find out that employer feeds all of my paystubs into there so I guess I am out of luck when negotiating?
sfchris,

Why? Just because you were paid $X at the previous job, it does not mean you are willing to settle for X+Y% with the new job. They won't know unless you CHOOSE to tell them.

LEARN how to negotiate or to be paid less throughout your life. How much will this cost you?

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:31 am

LarryAllen wrote:
I guess so. I am too busy making money to negotiate with someone who isn't even hired yet. If they want to negotiate from day one is everything going to be a negotiation? I have no time for that. I presume I am not the only owner that thinks like I think. I appreciate you think the opposite. Makes the world go round.
LarryAllen,

There is another way. You KNOW how much that you are willing to pay for the job. Just offer that amount. You do not need to know the salary history. No negotiation is needed. Let's be honest. The only reason why you want the salary history is because you want to pay less. For certain job that you do not need smart people, it may be fine.

I come from a multi-generations business family. I know how this works.

KlangFool

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