Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

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student
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by student » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:46 am

KlangFool wrote:
LarryAllen wrote:
I guess so. I am too busy making money to negotiate with someone who isn't even hired yet. If they want to negotiate from day one is everything going to be a negotiation? I have no time for that. I presume I am not the only owner that thinks like I think. I appreciate you think the opposite. Makes the world go round.
LarryAllen,

There is another way. You KNOW how much that you are willing to pay for the job. Just offer that amount. You do not need to know the salary history. No negotiation is needed. Let's be honest. The only reason why you want the salary history is because you want to pay less. For certain job that you do not need smart people, it may be fine.

I come from a multi-generations business family. I know how this works.

KlangFool
It is very interesting to read this thread. It is a bit different in academia, at least, when negotiation is done at the departmental level. We typically be very honest with the candidate and just offer the max.

BigSaver
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BigSaver » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:50 am

sfchris wrote:I assume you guys are aware of the salary database called The Work Number, run by Equifax?

https://www.theworknumber.com/verifiers/

I was appalled to find out that employer feeds all of my paystubs into there so I guess I am out of luck when negotiating?
The Work Number does not automatically give access to your salary information to just anyone. You have to authorize the access. It is merely a means to an end, namely, a way for you (a current or former employee) to share your salary information with another party. It does not open access to all prospective employers, only those to whom you provide a key code.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:56 am

student wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
LarryAllen wrote:
I guess so. I am too busy making money to negotiate with someone who isn't even hired yet. If they want to negotiate from day one is everything going to be a negotiation? I have no time for that. I presume I am not the only owner that thinks like I think. I appreciate you think the opposite. Makes the world go round.
LarryAllen,

There is another way. You KNOW how much that you are willing to pay for the job. Just offer that amount. You do not need to know the salary history. No negotiation is needed. Let's be honest. The only reason why you want the salary history is because you want to pay less. For certain job that you do not need smart people, it may be fine.

I come from a multi-generations business family. I know how this works.

KlangFool
It is very interesting to read this thread. It is a bit different in academia, at least, when negotiation is done at the departmental level. We typically be very honest with the candidate and just offer the max.
https://www.amazon.com/Fail-U-Promise-H ... rds=fail+u

student,

1) You may want to read this book.

2) Yes and no. Salary might be fixed. But, everything else is negotiable at the academic world. For example, working hours per week.

KlangFool

student
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by student » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:24 am

KlangFool wrote:
https://www.amazon.com/Fail-U-Promise-H ... rds=fail+u

student,

1) You may want to read this book.

2) Yes and no. Salary might be fixed. But, everything else is negotiable at the academic world. For example, working hours per week.

KlangFool
I was referring to salary. Things such as startup package are indeed negotiable but at many places the department knows what one can obtain from the administration and at least at my place we simply offer the maximum startup package possible. Our procedure is simple, negotiate the best possible offer ahead of time, offer it to our first choice and if the candidate rejects it, move to the next candidate. My experience is that the department does not play an "adversarial" role in the negotiation. However, I will point out that "working hours per week" is not negotiable because there is no such item. Professors work with flexible schedule.

vested1
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by vested1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:47 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:Also wanted to highlight there is a ton of info available to employers - we even have multiple people that are compensation specialists. Compensation pros use tools like Radford to segment out comparable companies and level roles so we have true ranges for roles. We're not blindly giving out offers or just taking candidates word at face value with no checks,...

We have a tonnnnn of information at our fingertips which is significantly more valuable that you using GLASSDOOR or searching the Internet for "average software engineer salary" or something like that. And our data is concrete from similar roles in similar companies.
This highlights how employers not only hold all the trump cards, but are willing to crow about their unfair advantage. A talented prospective employee with a sterling reputation is at the mercy of a system, built brick by brick, by a long succession of those who have made a science out of squeezing water from that rock. Requiring an applicant to divulge previous and current salary is blatantly transparent as a means to lowball a compensation offer.

Glassdoor is one of the few resources available to those who don't have access to employer sponsored databases. LinkedIn is another tool that should be used by a person looking to improve their employment situation by highlighting personal talent and experience, and is vital in solidifying a reputation, or sharing it with others who may be searching for the perfect employee.

After my initial retirement 7.5 years ago I had three different employers, all of whom lied about various aspects of compensation and benefits to get me on board, and unsurprisingly showed a glaring lack of ethics during subsequent employment. If I had known about Glassdoor I would have refused employment at the first two. I ignored negative comments about the third employer due to a massive increase in pay, to my own peril. I was required to provide my previous salaries and my desired compensation, which I did, giving what I considered an inflated number for what I needed. I knew I had made a mistake when they immediately agreed to my request at my only interview.

Glassdoor is universally despised by unscrupulous employers, but many will use it to their advantage. My last employer required all managers (every employee was a "manager", which was their strategy to avoid overtime for their nearly 4,000 employees) to write a positive review on the site. Some refused, and only a few were brave enough to point out the pressure to write a positive review, or to post negative reviews which were the only ones that turned out to be true. A long term employee, despite the high compensation, was considered to have more than one year with the company, and there were few indeed. All turnover was due to voluntary separation. I lasted 3 months before experiencing an alarming spike in blood pressure and heart rate, deciding to pull the plug permanently and officially retire. My heart health measurements are now that of a young adult.

Needless to say I have little respect for recruiters, and ignore repeated requests to reenter the workplace. I would encourage legislation like that previously mentioned in Massachusetts. At some point the employer's thumb on the scale should be removed.

Big Dog
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Big Dog » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:40 am

Big Dog,

Vice versa. Your company had sent a message that it will not treat its employee fairly.
Not too sure how you can make that conclusion. (Most of our Glassoor reviews are very positive. and of those that are not, they are from former disgruntled employees who were terminated for cause.)
I like to know current compensation because I like to make offers that are easily accepted. Base salaries need to be kept in line across comparable positions and often other benefits
Bingo. Plus, we don't want to insult the candidate. If the salary range is say, $70-100, and the candidate is already making the top of that range, we would be wasting our time to offer the midpoint $85k, unless we have something more to offer wrt benefits. OTOH if the candidate is making $60k, we would be wasting money to offer him $85k.
Last edited by Big Dog on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

mcraepat9
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:46 am

Big Dog wrote:
Big Dog,

Vice versa. Your company had sent a message that it will not treat its employee fairly.
Not too sure how you can make that conclusion. (Most of our Glassoor reviews are very positive. and of those that are not, they are from former disgruntled employees who were terminated for cause.)
Big Dog, if you don't mind me asking, what message do you think is sent by a prospective employee by not disclosing their salary history to your employer?
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:49 am

Big Dog wrote:
Big Dog,

Vice versa. Your company had sent a message that it will not treat its employee fairly.
Not too sure how you can make that conclusion. (Most of our Glassoor reviews are very positive. and of those that are not, they are from former disgruntled employees who were terminated for cause.)
Easily, from exactly what you stated below. This sends the message 'we have no idea what we are doing, so please provide your current salary here and we'll add as little as possible to it to persuade you to join our company instead.'
Big Dog wrote:
First, do not give them your salary history.
Such a person would not receive an offer at our company. After an initial screening or two, we ask all applicants to complete our application form, which includes previous salary info. If they leave it blank, well I guess that sends a message, does it not? :annoyed
Last edited by BW1985 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

Big Dog
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Big Dog » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:50 am

mcraepat: Resumes are marketing documents and can be full of puffery. A signed application is a legal document and blank lines it means that the application is incomplete. And incomplete legal docs....

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:51 am

Big Dog wrote:
Big Dog,

Vice versa. Your company had sent a message that it will not treat its employee fairly.
Not too sure how you can make that conclusion. (Most of our Glassoor reviews are very positive. and of those that are not, they are from former disgruntled employees who were terminated for cause.)
I like to know current compensation because I like to make offers that are easily accepted. Base salaries need to be kept in line across comparable positions and often other benefits
Bingo. Plus, we don't want to insult the candidate. If the salary range is say, $70-100, and the candidate is already making the top of that range, we would be wasting our time to offer the midpoint $85k, unless we have something more to offer wrt benefits. OTOH if the candidate is making $60k, we would be wasting money to offer him $85k.
Bingo, there it is!! "[We] would be wasting money to offer him $85k if he's making $60k".

If you're willing to pay the same candidate $85k it should not matter if he's making $60k now or $100k now.

Please explain how that is 'wasting money' exactly? You're getting the same candidate!
Last edited by BW1985 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

mcraepat9
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:52 am

Big Dog wrote:^^Resumes are marketing documents and can be full of puffery. A signed application is a legal document and blank lines it means that the application is incomplete. And incomplete legal docs....
The first sentence I get. The second and third sentences I don't really understand, and I am a lawyer. Could you give us a little more?

If the application had a question about whether the candidate had ever had STDs or his or her racial background, would not answering that question send the same message? Why or why not?
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

Big Dog
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Big Dog » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:56 am

Bingo, there it is!! "[We] would be wasting money to offer him $85k if he's making $60k".
I guess that depends on your definition of "fair". Not everyone should be earning midpoint, at least in compensation theory in private businesses. Earning midpoint at a salary range means a solid performed with xx years of experience, generally a mid-career professional . Someone a year or two out of college does not qualify immediately. But if show that he is doing the work, of a mid-career professional we do increase the salary rapidly.

OTOH, not all folks work out.
If the application had a question about whether the candidate had ever had STDs or his or her racial background...
Our apps do not have such questions.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:59 am

Big Dog wrote:
Bingo, there it is!! "[We] would be wasting money to offer him $85k if he's making $60k".
I guess that depends on your definition of "fair". Not everyone should be earning midpoint, at least in compensation theory in private businesses. Earning midpoint at a salary range means a solid performed with xx years of experience, generally a mid-career professional . Someone a year or two out of college does not qualify immediately. But if show that he is doing the work, of a mid-career professional we do increase the salary rapidly.
You should know where they're at in their career by their resume and interview. You should not need them to provide you with their current salary. You can decide where they fit in your range for that position and make that offer, regardless of their current salary. That's my point.
Last edited by BW1985 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:59 am

duplicate
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

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slayed
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by slayed » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:03 am

covertfantom wrote:Got the offer... they came in a bit at the low end of my range and the benefits seem pretty basic. Anyone know what to make of an offer of "$5,000 in stock options"? It's a small company and obviously not publicly trade. How the heck am I supposed to value that... let alone turn it into cash?
Would love to hear the details on how this went. Did you give them a range? Did you give them salary history? I would not count the stock options when determining the total compensation.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:04 am

Big Dog wrote:
If the application had a question about whether the candidate had ever had STDs or his or her racial background...
Our apps do not have such questions.
But that's not really the point? Your argument hinges on an applicant failing to answer a question on an application and thus leading to an "incomplete legal document" (whatever that means, as a lawyer I don't understand this). STD status, racial status and salary history all have no relevance to whether the applicant should be hired and at what salary the applicant is worth.

Could you explain a bit what you mean by your original comment?
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Big Dog » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:54 pm

Could you explain a bit what you mean by your original comment?

Sorry, my choice of words was unclear.

We ask candidates to complete an application prior to making an offer. (Only legally permissible stuff is requested on the app.) We believe that salary history is relevant. Of course, an applicant can always leave something blank. His/her choice. But also my choice on whether to make him/her an offer.

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:57 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Could you explain a bit what you mean by your original comment?
We believe that salary history is relevant.
How so?
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:57 pm

duplicate
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

mcraepat9
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:07 pm

BW1985 wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
Could you explain a bit what you mean by your original comment?
We believe that salary history is relevant.
How so?
+1

Would love to understand how this is relevant.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

Big Dog
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Big Dog » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:53 pm

let me google this for y'all:

https://shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magaz ... ories.aspx

Of course, folks are free to disagree.

And for those with the following pov:
First, do not give them your salary history..
...they can apply elsewhere.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:02 pm

Big Dog wrote:let me google this for y'all:

https://shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magaz ... ories.aspx

Of course, folks are free to disagree.

And for those with the following pov:
First, do not give them your salary history..
...they can apply elsewhere.
Big Dog,

<< Sylvia Francis, SHRM-SCP, is the total rewards manager for the Regional Transportation District in Denver and a member of SHRM’s HR Disciplines Special Expertise Panel.>>

From your URL, the person that said yes is an HR person. Guess which side she is on?

KlangFool

Brain
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Brain » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:05 pm

If the goal is to save time by determining if the company's range and the prospective employee's expectations align, isn't it just as easy for the company to reveal its range to the employee and let the applicant determine if that's acceptable?

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Brain » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:08 pm

KlangFool wrote:
From your URL, the person that said yes is an HR person. Guess which side she is on?

KlangFool
And she works in the public sector where their salary ranges are public. She has no choice but to reveal them and therefore, they are revealing their numbers first, so her position makes no sense.

mcraepat9
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:23 pm

Big Dog wrote:let me google this for y'all:

https://shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magaz ... ories.aspx

Of course, folks are free to disagree.

And for those with the following pov:
First, do not give them your salary history..
...they can apply elsewhere.
This woman's response supporting asking salary history is laughable. Job applicants don't want to waste their time either.

Top performers can and do apply elsewhere. Mediocre and middling candidates will answer your question. Employers ultimately get what they pay for.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by gunn_show » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:51 pm

mcraepat9 wrote: Top performers can and do apply elsewhere. Mediocre and middling candidates will answer your question. Employers ultimately get what they pay for.
:moneybag bingo ... me thinks big dog don't have many top performers at his firm...
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten

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gunn_show
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by gunn_show » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:22 pm

DoubleClick wrote:Thanks for posting the kalzumeus link. I've read it before, and it's fantastic, but couldn't find the link.
gunn_show wrote:+10000% .. I can often get salary/comp ranges from a recruiter, internal or external, before I even get on a phone screen.
Would you mind saying what words you use get the ranges out of a recruiter (especially internal)? I find it very hard to get this from internal recruiters. They always seem to turn the question back on the candidate, or give ranges that are so wide as to be useless, or deflect it in some other way that I cannot foresee and quickly respond to (eg: we'll leavel you after the interview, etc.).
** DoubleClick .. sorry didn't see this on the first page..

I'm going to put the caveats that: YMMV based on industry, location, company size, position, all the usual's ... I am in field sales for big tech firm ... and consider myself (based on experience and quota performance) a top performer, and my total comp (W2) would reflect that... So I think most tech sales recruiters know this game, and try not to waste much of their own time because pay is so variable in that field. I mean, for example my salary is good but not great, but that's because I'm on a nearly 40/60 split salary/commission.

...also I am very confident and use all the leverage given to me provided the above caveats... which, honestly, I think is 75% of the game. The resume/experience/quota history/comp history is the rest.

Mostly I am referring to inbound leads, recruiters that hit me up on LinkedIn asking if I am interested in "XYZ" position and company. I'd say 1/3rd actually include the comp range in that initial email to be honest. Those that don't, if the job sounds somewhat interesting, I reply back "I am quite happy with my position at company X, and well paid, but your job req sounds interesting - before I waste anyone's time, what is the total comp range for this position" .. something to that affect, leveraging the fact that I am happy and don't want to leave, and I am already successful with high pay, so show me your cards to get me interested or beat it. Another 1/3rd reply back with comp, or at least tell me on a quick initial call. I'd say the remaining 25-33% try to play the hide and seek game like a few recruiters/owners in this thread, and so I run away from those conversations, and that employer loses all interest from a high performer. No skin off my back. Most of the time you have to pry a top performer away from a current job, those folks aren't lying around at home begging for jobs, so playing the BS game won't work. Any recruiter or owner that thinks otherwise is frankly a fool. And I would never tell any recruiter what I truly felt about my current job - for the purposes of any negotiation, at any level, I love my job and pay and don't want to leave, and always give that impression for the highest leverage. If you don't currently have a job, then obviously that part is tougher to angle without a great story to tell.

I dealt with an internal recruiter for my current gig, and they tried to play hardball, but I got the higher comp that I wanted and it has worked out well. And if I recall I think they had slots in the online application for all that too. But in the end, as Klang and some others have referenced, when it got down to the nitty gritty negotiation, the hiring manager (my current boss) absolutely picked up the phone and called me to iron it out, or I was going to walk. I can still remember the conversation and where I was at the time (pacing in my backyard) because we were both pressing the levers on the call, and I was impressed that he made the call. Which is how it's supposed to be done. And, it worked out in the end. I've since gotten two nice raises and am (truthfully) very happy and well taken care of. If you don't set yourself up for success at the hiring/negotiation stage, you are set up for failure in some capacity.

tl;dr ::: confidence + leverage (actual or perceived or both) ... you don't get what you don't ask for ... and use the walk-away method in some form
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:34 pm

^^ Thanks, gunn_show. Though I'm not in sales, your larger point, and also hearing about your experiences are very useful.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Barefootgirl » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:35 pm

This has always been a pet peeve. In the past, I've been asked to submit a pay stub for verification, while on the other side, company salary information is considered highly proprietary and obtaining access to it is a fire-able offense.

I've always viewed employment as a convenient arrangement between both parties, not a master/servant situation. Perhaps that explains a few things lol.
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by TOJ » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:46 pm

I was recently asked what my salary is and when my bonus is paid. Answered honestly as I was caught off guard. HR is a joke.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by TOJ » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:06 pm

metrunt wrote:Much of this thread seems to be based on how employees can avoid being underpaid and employers can avoid overpaying. But what is the appropriate amount of compensation? It's sounds like it's largely based on what other people are getting. But shouldn't it be what the person thinks is fair for themselves? And what the value an employer thinks a person brings to the company?

If I make $60K and am happy and live the life I want to, why does it matter if I could have negotiated harder and gotten $70K? If an employer knows a position at $70K will return a sufficient profit, what try to lowball at $60K?
The employer will always try to pay bottom dollar, and it is a mistake. An employer loses more by under paying an employee than over paying him. Especially in sub-100k range. A company that constantly tries to squeeze 5k and 10k out of 50k and 60k employees is not going to retain top talent or foster goodwill or loyalty.

mpowered
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mpowered » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:23 pm

TOJ wrote:The employer will always try to pay bottom dollar, and it is a mistake. An employer loses more by under paying an employee than over paying him. Especially in sub-100k range. A company that constantly tries to squeeze 5k and 10k out of 50k and 60k employees is not going to retain top talent or foster goodwill or loyalty.
Seriously. For highly qualified candidates it may be easier to jump ship than to try to negotiate for higher pay. Makes me glad to work in the legal industry where salaries are immediately leaked to blogs and posted for everyone to see.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:23 am

TOJ wrote:I was recently asked what my salary is and when my bonus is paid. Answered honestly as I was caught off guard. HR is a joke.
This is an extremely common tactic. I always have a few sentences pre-prepared for whenever I get caught off guard like that and mostly don't fall for this anymore.

Still, they do this all day everyday and have a hundred other tricks up their sleeve, and I do it once in a few years. Guess who has the upper hand.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Carl53 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:36 am

The last employee I hired (nearly ten years ago) prior to my retirement, held a PhD in a technical field and had only done post-doc work while I was looking for a top notch engineer. HR insisted on low-balling the offer at about 3/4 of what it should have been. The individual took the position due to circumstances. Over the next three years, I was able to get two pay bumps for the individual above the annual ones when I felt they were about to leave. Very painful, lengthy and time consuming process for me and my boss, but it worked as the employee was excellent and still is with the company in a upper management position. It would have been so much better had the company not screwed the individual originally just because they could.

Carl53
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by Carl53 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:38 am

mpowered wrote:
TOJ wrote:The employer will always try to pay bottom dollar, and it is a mistake. An employer loses more by under paying an employee than over paying him. Especially in sub-100k range. A company that constantly tries to squeeze 5k and 10k out of 50k and 60k employees is not going to retain top talent or foster goodwill or loyalty.
Seriously. For highly qualified candidates it may be easier to jump ship than to try to negotiate for higher pay.
+1

DoubleClick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:51 am

Carl53 wrote:The last employee I hired (nearly ten years ago) prior to my retirement, held a PhD in a technical field and had only done post-doc work while I was looking for a top notch engineer. HR insisted on low-balling the offer at about 3/4 of what it should have been.
I see this type of thing happen as well but I've never understood how this works. Is HR incentivized to minimize compensation?

edge
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by edge » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:05 am

It sounds like we have some HR folks and departments that are using the mentality of 'protecting the company from its employees' or viewing HR like some kind of people procurement profit center.

These concepts lead to bottom tertile talent.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:22 am

Folks,

Let me give a summarized version of the whole story.

The company / employer has a job. They KNOW how much the job worth to them and they have a budget for a salary range from X to Y. So, they have all the information necessary need to make an offer to the right candidate. But, they LIED to the applicants that they need the salary history and desired salary in order to make an offer. They do that so they can pay less than what the job worth.

Meanwhile, the hiring manager unless he / she is the owner of the company does not really care about saving money in term of salary. He / she is judged base on the person he hires. He / she will be in trouble even fire for having a lousy subordinate.

HR is the evil people in this game. They do not care whether the company / employer hire the right people. Their KPI is based on how many people are hired on average or below average salary. If the hiring manager got stuck wit lousy employee, it is not their problem. HR still get their bonuses.

SMART PEOPLE bypass the whole system. The applicants use Linkedin to contact people and / or hiring manager in the employer. They use Glassdoor to check out the employer. Good hiring manager tells good candidate through the informal channel the actual salary range of the job.

This is Boglehead. This is the same as investing or shopping. People that do the research and find out the job worth is ahead of the game. Or else, you will be stuck with lousy offer / deal. It is the same as people paying 1% to 2% annual management fee to financial advisors and they think that it is a good deal.

Please note that this is a lot of money. With a working life of 20 to 30 years, the effect is very significant.

It is very simple. If you do not know what your job worth to the employer, you are probably underpaid. Ditto on what is the market value of your job. Please note that they are usually not the same.

KlangFool

BW1985
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by BW1985 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:43 am

Big Dog wrote:let me google this for y'all:

https://shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magaz ... ories.aspx

Of course, folks are free to disagree.

And for those with the following pov:
First, do not give them your salary history..
...they can apply elsewhere.
That article is a joke, but you already answered this question in an earlier post. "We would be wasting money to offer $85k if they make $60k". This sums up the HR/employer salary game pretty well, once you know they make $60k you'd offer $65k even though the market value is $85k, and you were prepared to pay $85k. This is why I have no problem fudging numbers while playing this game.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:05 am

BW1985 wrote:
Big Dog wrote:let me google this for y'all:

https://shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magaz ... ories.aspx

Of course, folks are free to disagree.

And for those with the following pov:
First, do not give them your salary history..
...they can apply elsewhere.
That article is a joke, but you already answered this question in an earlier post. "We would be wasting money to offer $85k if they make $60k". This sums up the HR/employer salary game pretty well, once you know they make $60k you'd offer $65k even though the market value is $85k, and you were prepared to pay $85k. This is why I have no problem fudging numbers while playing this game.
BW1985,

1) How dare you! It is not unethical and immoral for the employer to LIE. But, it is unethical and immoral for you to LIE. :sharebeer :sharebeer :sharebeer

2) Why go down to their level? Just refuse to play their game. If they want your salary history, you want the salary history of the job too. So, you could be sure that you are taking the right offer. Just to be fair.

KlangFool

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slayed
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by slayed » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:10 am

my own take on why HR likes to ask things like salary history - at least in my field (software development) -

they are pretty terrible at screening candidates. which is understandable because how is a recruiter/HR person going to screen a candidate on anything technical? they don't understand what any of the "buzz words" mean other than at a very superficial level. it is incredibly easy to bullshit your way through the screening process with a recruiter. in the end what this results in is a lot of wasted time for the engineers involved in the interview process because we end up rejecting 99% of the people brought in, and a lot of frustration all around because we have open Reqs that take forever to fill.

so the salary history at least gives them some indication of "how good" a candidate is. after all if company X and company Y were willing to pay this person Z number of dollars, maybe there is a good chance that they are worth that money.

KlangFool
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:49 am

slayed wrote:my own take on why HR likes to ask things like salary history - at least in my field (software development) -

they are pretty terrible at screening candidates. which is understandable because how is a recruiter/HR person going to screen a candidate on anything technical? they don't understand what any of the "buzz words" mean other than at a very superficial level. it is incredibly easy to bullshit your way through the screening process with a recruiter. in the end what this results in is a lot of wasted time for the engineers involved in the interview process because we end up rejecting 99% of the people brought in, and a lot of frustration all around because we have open Reqs that take forever to fill.
slayed,

A) If the HR / recruiter is incapable of doing their job, why waste money on them? They should be fired. This should be a huge cost saving for the employer?

B) Actually, this is a bunch of excuses. I was a hiring manager for many years. It will be very easy for the HR to ask the hiring manager to write some simple test related to the job for screening. But, as a hiring manager, I recruit my own people through my own channel. Why should I waste my time and effort with HR? In the best case scenario, they are totally useless. In the worst case scenario, they prevent me as a hiring manager for making the right offer to the candidate. There is little to zero incentive for me as a hiring manager to work with HR. I just tolerate them.

C) Actually, it is even simpler than that for an experienced professional. If a person is in an industry for many years, we know where all the good people come from. And, anybody that is any good will be connected to someone that we know in Linkedin. It is a very small world.

KlangFool

vested1
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by vested1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:04 am

KlangFool wrote:
slayed wrote:my own take on why HR likes to ask things like salary history - at least in my field (software development) -

they are pretty terrible at screening candidates. which is understandable because how is a recruiter/HR person going to screen a candidate on anything technical? they don't understand what any of the "buzz words" mean other than at a very superficial level. it is incredibly easy to bullshit your way through the screening process with a recruiter. in the end what this results in is a lot of wasted time for the engineers involved in the interview process because we end up rejecting 99% of the people brought in, and a lot of frustration all around because we have open Reqs that take forever to fill.
slayed,

A) If the HR / recruiter is incapable of doing their job, why waste money on them? They should be fired. This should be a huge cost saving for the employer?

B) Actually, this is a bunch of excuses. I was a hiring manager for many years. It will be very easy for the HR to ask the hiring manager to write some simple test related to the job for screening. But, as a hiring manager, I recruit my own people through my own channel. Why should I waste my time and effort with HR? In the best case scenario, they are totally useless. In the worst case scenario, they prevent me as a hiring manager for making the right offer to the candidate. There is little to zero incentive for me as a hiring manager to work with HR. I just tolerate them.

C) Actually, it is even simpler than that for an experienced professional. If a person is in an industry for many years, we know where all the good people come from. And, anybody that is any good will be connected to someone that we know in Linkedin. It is a very small world.

KlangFool
This reply sums it up nicely, not in some theoretical world, but in the real one. For technical jobs that require specialized knowledge, HR, or even un-skilled managers are useless in determining qualifications. It really is a small world where technology is concerned.

At one of my post-retirement jobs I was asked to write a pre-qualifications list for the company to use when deciding which applicants to hire. I did so, but also offered my help with the screening process, which was never used. My list was published in the handbook but largely ignored, and a long procession of unqualified "engineers" were hired, none of whom worked out.

Edited to add: the reason they didn't use my list is because they couldn't find anyone who filled the bill at the wages they were willing to pay. If they would have included me in the screening process they probably thought they would have to pay me more as well. I used my own qualifications as the criteria.

It would be far better to have a qualified panel or even an individual to screen prospective employees, and to also pay the ones eventually hired an attractive wage in order to retain their talent.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:21 am

vested1 wrote: This reply sums it up nicely, not in some theoretical world, but in the real one. For technical jobs that require specialized knowledge, HR, or even un-skilled managers are useless in determining qualifications. It really is a small world where technology is concerned.

At one of my post-retirement jobs I was asked to write a pre-qualifications list for the company to use when deciding which applicants to hire. I did so, but also offered my help with the screening process, which was never used. My list was published in the handbook but largely ignored, and a long procession of unqualified "engineers" were hired, none of whom worked out.

Edited to add: the reason they didn't use my list is because they couldn't find anyone who filled the bill at the wages they were willing to pay. If they would have included me in the screening process they probably thought they would have to pay me more as well. I used my own qualifications as the criteria.

It would be far better to have a qualified panel or even an individual to screen prospective employees, and to also pay the ones eventually hired an attractive wage in order to retain their talent.
vested1,

1) Did HR ever get punished for their incompetence? The answer is no.

2) What is the COST of paying unqualified engineers and wasted all those money?

In summary, "Penny Wise, Pound Foolish!!". The employer got what they pay for nothing. They pay for incompetence and they get it.

KlangFool

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:37 am

KlangFool wrote:The company / employer has a job. They KNOW how much the job worth to them and they have a budget for a salary range from X to Y. So, they have all the information necessary need to make an offer to the right candidate. But, they LIED to the applicants that they need the salary history and desired salary in order to make an offer. They do that so they can pay less than what the job worth.
Not certain why I continue to engage with you knowing that your opinions will never change in your way of thinking on this topic and being all-knowing... but I wanted to highlight that I never said a candidate should disclose past salary information. As a matter of fact, I said a candidate shouldn't, or at least doesn't need to, submit that information. I also told the OP or someone else not to give that information if they were being asked.

What I DID say was that from a recruiting standpoint we'd love for a candidate to tell us what their dream number was or what'd it take for them to join us, what number they'd snap accept, so that we can go and get that approved... I don't care if they're shooting the moon or 5x'ing what they made in their last role, that information is irrelevant to me. If we want to hire someone, all I want to know is what it's going to take.

What I'm saying and what you're saying are not the same. DUCY?

Our full application process is literally full name, email address, phone number, and resume - no previous salary info, no what was your college gpa, no give me three references, nothing.

It's a shame a lot of y'all in this thread have had such terrible experiences with HR departments in the past - but I think the talent/HR function is significantly changing from what you might have experienced 5-10-20 years ago. And maybe, just maybe, the exact same tactics that you used when you were a hiring manager 10 years ago at XYZ might not work today? The talent landscape is ever evolving, from both the candidate side and the hiring side, and I promise it isn't all as bad/negative/gloomy/everyone's out to get me/I can't say a number first or I lose/I'm worth a million dollars and I'm not accepting 999,999/ as you make it out to be. There are good people, good companies, and good candidates that actually make it a pretty sweet job on a daily basis :)

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by KlangFool » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:45 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
What I DID say was that from a recruiting standpoint we'd love for a candidate to tell us what their dream number was or what'd it take for them to join us, what number they'd snap accept, so that we can go and get that approved... I don't care if they're shooting the moon or 5x'ing what they made in their last role, that information is irrelevant to me. If we want to hire someone, all I want to know is what it's going to take.

What I'm saying and what you're saying are not the same. DUCY?
NoGambleNoFuture,

I am going to ask you a straight forward question and I hope to get an honest answer from you.

You like to get a desired salary from the candidate. So, to be FAIR, do you disclose the salary range of the job to the candidate FIRST? If not, why not?

In fact, if the job is posted with salary range right from the start, nobody needs to play any kind of game. But, why your employer choose not to do that?

KlangFool

P.S.: Please read your own posts. In fact, almost all your posts had convinced and confirmed our bad opinion of HR. It is not only me.

DoubleClick
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by DoubleClick » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:20 pm

student wrote:It is very interesting to read this thread. It is a bit different in academia, at least, when negotiation is done at the departmental level. We typically be very honest with the candidate and just offer the max.
Academia typically pays far less than the industry particularly in STEM, and the number of positions is highly limited compared to the industry. The focus and criteria for accepting an offer in academia are based largely on factors outside the salary which is expected and fixed.

Therefore, it's much easier to ignore salary bands and just offer the max.

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:41 pm

mpowered wrote:
TOJ wrote:The employer will always try to pay bottom dollar, and it is a mistake. An employer loses more by under paying an employee than over paying him. Especially in sub-100k range. A company that constantly tries to squeeze 5k and 10k out of 50k and 60k employees is not going to retain top talent or foster goodwill or loyalty.
Seriously. For highly qualified candidates it may be easier to jump ship than to try to negotiate for higher pay. Makes me glad to work in the legal industry where salaries are immediately leaked to blogs and posted for everyone to see.
The collusion of Biglaw firms setting salaries and bonuses is staggering. A clear violation of antitrust laws.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

CFOKevin
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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by CFOKevin » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:11 pm

NGNF,

Keep fighting the good fight here. I'm afraid we are outnumbered by those who have had terrible experiences with HR. To all of them, I apologize as a CFO who has usually had HR responsibilities and has hired hundreds into tech companies.

If asked, I have no problem sharing lots of info about how my companies have set compensation and will always share salary ranges for a position. If a candidate elects not to share their current compensation, I give them the range and ask if somewhere in there will work for them.

Hiring is difficult enough to do without an open exchange of information. Bottom line, a company makes an offer hoping/expecting to get that amount of value (or more). You don't know what you've got until someone has been on the job for 60 to 120 days. Bad hires cost companies a ton of money given that benefits costs are 35% or more of base salaries and hiring costs can be another 10-35% depending on the process used.

To good hiring practices and happy employees,

Kevin

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Re: Prospective Employer Wants Salary History & Desired Salary

Post by mcraepat9 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:17 pm

CFOKevin wrote:NGNF,

Keep fighting the good fight here. I'm afraid we are outnumbered by those who have had terrible experiences with HR. To all of them, I apologize as a CFO who has usually had HR responsibilities and has hired hundreds into tech companies.

If asked, I have no problem sharing lots of info about how my companies have set compensation and will always share salary ranges for a position. If a candidate elects not to share their current compensation, I give them the range and ask if somewhere in there will work for them.

Hiring is difficult enough to do without an open exchange of information. Bottom line, a company makes an offer hoping/expecting to get that amount of value (or more). You don't know what you've got until someone has been on the job for 60 to 120 days. Bad hires cost companies a ton of money given that benefits costs are 35% or more of base salaries and hiring costs can be another 10-35% depending on the process used.

To good hiring practices and happy employees,

Kevin
Kevin, I enjoyed your post a lot. If a candidate elects not to share comp history, how does that affect your view of the candidate and his/her prospects?

FWIW I don't think this is a true HR vs. applicant fight, but more of a discussion about companies that like to leverage an asymmetry of information about comp to the disadvantage of applicants and how, invariably, the very best applicants know that companies that ask for comp history are bottom feeders. It is something that undoubtedly hurts employers and the best employers know they get what they pay for.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.

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