Picking College and College Scholarships

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itstoomuch
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Re: The Tao of Clams

Post by itstoomuch » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:19 am

Inspiring story, Livesoft.
itstoomuch wrote:The Tao of Clams

If you want to catch some clams, It doesn't mean that you will actually do it.
If you are prepared to get some clams, the Earth, Sun, and Moon must be aligned properly.
If the Earth, Sun, and Moon are aligned, the weather must be correct.
If the Earth, Sun, and Moon, and weather are correct, the be sure that you going after the right clam.

Clams make do with one foot.
Clams can get to where they need get to.
Clams can get there rather quickly, given the right conditions.
Clams can be tenacious once they get there.

:annoyed :oops: :idea:

I have been looking for a way to bring out the Tao of Clams.
any character resemblance to clams is coincidental
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HomerJ
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:23 am

ks289 wrote:However, I largely agree that the study conclusions make sense and probably have tons of truth. I just think we shouldn't just dismiss the potential for value at elites in the process for some (?many) students.


Okay, I'll meet you half-way. I agree there is potential for value at elites for some, maybe even many, students.

I still think Harvard, etc. take far too much credit for their students.

It's like if I started a basketball college, took only the best high school basketball players in the country (top 0.01%), and then proclaimed that the main reason my team does well against the state college (who takes the top 20% of high school basketball players) is because I teach basketball better than everyone else.

Minty
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Minty » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:51 am

I am enjoying this thoughtful thread. Here's my contribution. I was briefly in a super-elite program. The smug entitlement among the students and faculty was insufferable. But the opening up of my imagination about possibilities was invaluable. Example: I did a class project about a certain policy decision. Some professors arranged for me to speak with alums who had been in the cabinet. I picked the brain of a graduate who had been the President. I've stayed in education and taught at five universities; the students, faculty and alumni at the best ones change students' expectations about what professional life can be about. There's a fantastic book by Shamus Khan called Privilege about an elite prep school; he argues that's what they sell-- making students believe that they can (and should) be among those who imagine they run the world.

I appreciate KlangFool's concern about being at the bottom of a top program, which could be damaging. But many such programs deliberately conceal relative performance by awarding high grades, opaque grades, or not ranking. And to my knowledge the studies showing no difference in outcome for attending a top school measure income only. Income is important, so are intangibles. Some jobs (Senator, professor, judge, nonprofit executive) might pay less than alternatives, yet be more competitive, desirable and prestigious to some, and more available to those who attended fancy schools.

That being said, my daughter's going to school in the fall, a small college many people probably never heard of, $70K. I wanted her to apply to a bunch of top schools, she had something else in mind. We felt she'd earned the right, by working like a dog in high school, including earning a semester (i.e., $35K!) of AP credits, to go wherever she thought was best for her. In my years of teaching, I've seen too many kids hurt by parental pressure to attend schools or programs that were not right for them. Parents, being from a different generation, and having participated in a different job market, sometimes make misjudgments.
Core Four with nominal bonds and TIPS.

Pdxnative
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Pdxnative » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:09 am

As has already been mentioned, I'd encourage you to go to collegeconfidential with many of these questions. Those folks live and breathe this stuff, and could help you shape a list that involves merit aid rather than need based (aid at the schools you've mentioned is almost entirely need-based).

Some of the elite schools that have been mentioned admit <10%, so very early in the process you should drive home that admission is NOT likely. Your son is definitely above the threshold for admission, but among that pool of kids admission is more random than meritocratic.

Whether those schools are worth the $ is a separate question. For many attending them, the cost ends up being comparable to in-state given the generous need-based aid. If you are not in the portion of families eligible for that aid, then your cost-benefit may be different.

itstoomuch
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:16 am

CollegeConfidential, maybe you can find my old jokes there. :oops:
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Rodc
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:18 am

ks289 wrote:
Rodc wrote:
ks289 wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
It's quite a scam they have going.

I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.


:oops:
Too dismissive.
For many families, the actual price difference is far less or even cheaper than state U after aid. For other families, the cost is not significant.
For some families, the state "flagship" is limited in its offerings or appeal. The appeal of state U has come under pressure in many states recently as a result of funding cuts which are diminishing the value aspect of many state U's.
Moreover, applying non-randomized studies comparing mainly selective schools to broadly conclude that schools have no impact on outcomes (even purely for finances) is not valid.


http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/t ... nings-myth

This reports on the most scientific study I know of.

Here is the paper:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

The study looks at top students, some of whom go to highly selective colleges and some who do not. That is difference is not in the quality of the students but in the school. The metric is income some years after school, so does not cover intangibles. In general there is no benefit in income seen from the highly selective school, other for some important subgroups like disadvantaged students.

Now it might still be beneficial for certain other subgroups that are too small to move the average - like folks headed to elite academic careers.


Those are exactly among the widely cited non randomized studies I am referring to. They examine income data from students (who obviously choose their college themselves) who attended elite schools vs good schools. Nobody can ever do a randomized study here since few students would wish to have a random number generator determine which school (elite vs good) they attend.
My point about the randomization aspect (as with any non randomized study) is that confounding factors are unavoidable. The students who chose the non elite school may have overwhelming done so because there was a better fit or program at the less selcective school. When we say there is no difference just go to the cheaper place, we are not replicating the circumstances of these studies and therefore should not attempt to draw the same conclusions.
However, I largely agree that the study conclusions make sense and probably have tons of truth. I just think we shouldn't just dismiss the potential for value at elites in the process for some (?many) students.


If you want a perfect study that is your right of course, but then you have to reject all good but less than perfect information. Unclear that is a very useful position to take. But to your last sentence the authors (as well as my post you look to be objecting to) do exactly what you are looking for, pointing that there are some students for whom there is a real value.

Do you think they or I have said there are no students who benefit? That is, do you read their work as dismissing the value for all students?
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

ks289
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ks289 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:34 am

Rodc wrote:
ks289 wrote:
Rodc wrote:
ks289 wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
It's quite a scam they have going.

I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.


:oops:
Too dismissive.
For many families, the actual price difference is far less or even cheaper than state U after aid. For other families, the cost is not significant.
For some families, the state "flagship" is limited in its offerings or appeal. The appeal of state U has come under pressure in many states recently as a result of funding cuts which are diminishing the value aspect of many state U's.
Moreover, applying non-randomized studies comparing mainly selective schools to broadly conclude that schools have no impact on outcomes (even purely for finances) is not valid.


http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/t ... nings-myth

This reports on the most scientific study I know of.

Here is the paper:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

The study looks at top students, some of whom go to highly selective colleges and some who do not. That is difference is not in the quality of the students but in the school. The metric is income some years after school, so does not cover intangibles. In general there is no benefit in income seen from the highly selective school, other for some important subgroups like disadvantaged students.

Now it might still be beneficial for certain other subgroups that are too small to move the average - like folks headed to elite academic careers.


Those are exactly among the widely cited non randomized studies I am referring to. They examine income data from students (who obviously choose their college themselves) who attended elite schools vs good schools. Nobody can ever do a randomized study here since few students would wish to have a random number generator determine which school (elite vs good) they attend.
My point about the randomization aspect (as with any non randomized study) is that confounding factors are unavoidable. The students who chose the non elite school may have overwhelming done so because there was a better fit or program at the less selcective school. When we say there is no difference just go to the cheaper place, we are not replicating the circumstances of these studies and therefore should not attempt to draw the same conclusions.
However, I largely agree that the study conclusions make sense and probably have tons of truth. I just think we shouldn't just dismiss the potential for value at elites in the process for some (?many) students.


If you want a perfect study that is your right of course, but then you have to reject all good but less than perfect information. Unclear that is a very useful position to take. But to your last sentence the authors (as well as my post you look to be objecting to) do exactly what you are looking for, pointing that there are some students for whom there is a real value.

Do you think they or I have said there are no students who benefit? That is, do you read their work as dismissing the value for all students?


My second to last sentence says I believe the conclusions have value and truth so I hardly am rejecting the information nor do I believe that a perfect study is either necessary or possible (as with most of life's questions). My last sentence is directed more at other posters.
My main point is that we need to be clear what randomization means and how to properly apply the conclusions and understand the limitations. My daily life usually involves counseling patients on how to interpret (mostly non randomized) studies that are publicized in the lay press which routinely scare/alarm patients into making bad choices. The press and patients routinely oversell the conclusions and are baffled when additional data (maybe higher quality or prospective or randomized studies) conclude something different.

absolutFinance
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by absolutFinance » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:57 am

thanks livesoft. this is a great example of the benefit of not optimizing for the average outcome. i bolded the most crucial part. if your kid has the drive, why interfere with their pursuit of the best outcome?

my experience was similar. my parents wanted me to apply to the best schools but my dad pressured me to go to the local state school. for a variety of reasons, i just wanted to get away. i ended up having a choice between full rides at two great state schools (university of washington and georgia tech) or some elites (Stanford, MIT, etc). i knew going into to it i would have to work through school to make it all work and i did and still graduated with some loans which i was able to pay off within a year of graduating.

160k difference for the 4 year cost is not much in relation to lifetime earning potential for an engineer, particularly when you consider the upside for the best opportunities.

livesoft wrote:
timmy wrote: Personal stories inform within that context.

A personal story: My parents actively discouraged me from applying to any college that cost money. "We are not going to pay for it, so you might as well not apply because you won't be able to go anyways." I was working full-time (40+ hours a week) in high school to save for college and did not have time for extracurriculars (ECs). I applied to Virginia Tech and was accepted. I didn't go there. My friend encouraged me to apply to a private elite university that was out of state. I was accepted. My parents said, "We aren't paying for anything but room & board, so you shouldn't go there because you don't have enough money to pay for it." I had enough money of my own for the first semester, so I decided to go anyways. My parents said, "How are you going to get there? We are not going to pay for you to get there." I found a bus ticket for a 24 hour ride to college. My parents said, "How are you going to get to the bus station. We are not taking you down there." I begged my mom to drive me to the bus station because I didn't have cab fare.

At the end of the 24 hour bus ride, I didn't have cab fare to get to the university dorm. I found someone to share a ride with that I would pay back later.

At school, I got a job in the first week as a custodian. I kept that job for all the years I was in college. It had the perfect 20+ hours a week that didn't interfere with classes. I got a letter from my Organic Chem professor my freshman year telling me that I had the top grade in all the organic chem classes at the university that year. I also found a job in a research lab. I had 2 papers published from my undergraduate research in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. Because school as so expensive, I took extra classes and graduated in 3 years to save me a full year of college expenses. I went on to grad school and a career in science.

So now folks can see why I always encourage my kids to "Do it themselves." I would encourage parents not to discourage their children about where they want to go to school. I can see having discussions along the way, but I can say that "where there's a will, there's a way", too.

My kids went to college. One goes to a state university where costs are about $20K a year. The other went to a university where costs this year are reported to be $70K a year.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:00 pm

My last sentence is directed more at other posters.
My main point is that we need to be clear what randomization means and how to properly apply the conclusions and understand the limitations. My daily life usually involves counseling patients on how to interpret (mostly non randomized) studies that are publicized in the lay press which routinely scare/alarm patients into making bad choices. The press and patients routinely oversell the conclusions and are baffled when additional data (maybe higher quality or prospective or randomized studies) conclude something different.


Fair enough if we agree that "overselling" goes both ways. :)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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HomerJ
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:23 pm

absolutFinance wrote:160k difference for the 4 year cost is not much in relation to lifetime earning potential for an engineer, particularly when you consider the upside for the best opportunities.


$160k invested from 22 to 62 at 7% turns into $2.4 million at retirement. But forget that.

Graduating from MIT might mean you'll make $30k more at first than the guy who graduates from State U.

Maybe.

Comparing Georgia Tech and MIT, it looks like an average $20k-$30k difference... But that includes all the 20% people at Georgia Tech. The 0.01% people who went to Georgia Tech had a much easier chance of standing out to their professors (since the whole class wasn't 0.01% people, like at MIT), they got better grades than average, and they probably do better than the average starting salary.

But let's say the 0.01% from Georgia Tech starts at a lower salary. He's still $160,000 ahead of the MIT guy. It will take the MIT guy 10 years to catch up after paying off student loans (after taxes), assuming that he continues to maintain the higher salary.

But it's important to note that engineering and computer science happen to be a couple of those professions where the quality of your work is quantifiable.

Within 10 years, most people don't care where you went to school, and the really good people are making the same good salaries regardless of school.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Bfwolf » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:51 pm

ks289 wrote:Those are exactly among the widely cited non randomized studies I am referring to. They examine income data from students (who obviously choose their college themselves) who attended elite schools vs good schools. Nobody can ever do a randomized study here since few students would wish to have a random number generator determine which school (elite vs good) they attend.
My point about the randomization aspect (as with any non randomized study) is that confounding factors are unavoidable. The students who chose the non elite school may have overwhelming done so because there was a better fit or program at the less selcective school. When we say there is no difference just go to the cheaper place, we are not replicating the circumstances of these studies and therefore should not attempt to draw the same conclusions.
However, I largely agree that the study conclusions make sense and probably have tons of truth. I just think we shouldn't just dismiss the potential for value at elites in the process for some (?many) students.


Totally fair. I was too dismissive earlier of the MITs and Stanfords of the world when there's a much cheaper but still good option. Under the right circumstances, for the right kid, they can be worth it. The study even points to certain groups of kids (first generation college, minorities) where it makes a quantifiable difference.

What I protest to is the attitude prevalent among many that a kid should go to the most prestigious university he gets into regardless of costs. $160K is a lot of money, and it's still a lot of money over a long career when you discount to net present value. If you're going to pay $160K more for an engineering education at MIT instead of UIUC, you should have a better reason than "MIT is the more elite school" unless you are so wealthy that it doesn't matter.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:11 pm

HomerJ wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:160k difference for the 4 year cost is not much in relation to lifetime earning potential for an engineer, particularly when you consider the upside for the best opportunities.


$160k invested from 22 to 62 at 7% turns into $2.4 million at retirement. But forget that.

Graduating from MIT might mean you'll make $30k more at first than the guy who graduates from State U.

Maybe.

Comparing Georgia Tech and MIT, it looks like an average $20k-$30k difference... But that includes all the 20% people at Georgia Tech. The 0.01% people who went to Georgia Tech had a much easier chance of standing out to their professors (since the whole class wasn't 0.01% people, like at MIT), they got better grades than average, and they probably do better than the average starting salary.


HomerJ,

Sorry, I do have a bone to pick on your post. For many of us in the industry, we ranked undergraduate engineering program from Georgia Tech higher than MIT. MIT maybe better in graduate level.

KlangFool

P.S.: In my opinion, for undergraduate engineering program, Harvey Mudd College is #1.

absolutFinance
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by absolutFinance » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:29 pm

i think you're making a mistake in assuming the best opportunities are just the same job at a higher salary. career trajectory can be substantially different - a good example is 2/3 of my graduating CS class going to Google pre-IPO and becoming millionaires. Pre-IPO recruiting was completely saturated by the best schools that if you were far enough down the list, they didn't bother coming to recruit there. But again, I'm kind of sliding into the same mistake you made.

What I mean about best opportunities are things that come from the caliber of people you go to school with, that the schools brings into your purview and who you learn from. For me, that meant exposure to entrepreneurs at a level and scale that I would not have seen elsewhere, which opened doors for me to build my own company and easily eclipse the delta we are talking about. It's different for everyone but that's what it was for me. Outlier opportunities will make 160k look like a drop in the bucket.

HomerJ wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:160k difference for the 4 year cost is not much in relation to lifetime earning potential for an engineer, particularly when you consider the upside for the best opportunities.


$160k invested from 22 to 62 at 7% turns into $2.4 million at retirement. But forget that.

Graduating from MIT might mean you'll make $30k more at first than the guy who graduates from State U.

Maybe.

Comparing Georgia Tech and MIT, it looks like an average $20k-$30k difference... But that includes all the 20% people at Georgia Tech. The 0.01% people who went to Georgia Tech had a much easier chance of standing out to their professors (since the whole class wasn't 0.01% people, like at MIT), they got better grades than average, and they probably do better than the average starting salary.

But let's say the 0.01% from Georgia Tech starts at a lower salary. He's still $160,000 ahead of the MIT guy. It will take the MIT guy 10 years to catch up after paying off student loans (after taxes), assuming that he continues to maintain the higher salary.

But it's important to note that engineering and computer science happen to be a couple of those professions where the quality of your work is quantifiable.

Within 10 years, most people don't care where you went to school, and the really good people are making the same good salaries regardless of school.

absolutFinance
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by absolutFinance » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:29 pm

what industry is that?

KlangFool wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:160k difference for the 4 year cost is not much in relation to lifetime earning potential for an engineer, particularly when you consider the upside for the best opportunities.


$160k invested from 22 to 62 at 7% turns into $2.4 million at retirement. But forget that.

Graduating from MIT might mean you'll make $30k more at first than the guy who graduates from State U.

Maybe.

Comparing Georgia Tech and MIT, it looks like an average $20k-$30k difference... But that includes all the 20% people at Georgia Tech. The 0.01% people who went to Georgia Tech had a much easier chance of standing out to their professors (since the whole class wasn't 0.01% people, like at MIT), they got better grades than average, and they probably do better than the average starting salary.


HomerJ,

Sorry, I do have a bone to pick on your post. For many of us in the industry, we ranked undergraduate engineering program from Georgia Tech higher than MIT. MIT maybe better in graduate level.

KlangFool

P.S.: In my opinion, for undergraduate engineering program, Harvey Mudd College is #1.

KlangFool
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:38 pm

absolutFinance wrote:what industry is that?

KlangFool wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:160k difference for the 4 year cost is not much in relation to lifetime earning potential for an engineer, particularly when you consider the upside for the best opportunities.


$160k invested from 22 to 62 at 7% turns into $2.4 million at retirement. But forget that.

Graduating from MIT might mean you'll make $30k more at first than the guy who graduates from State U.

Maybe.

Comparing Georgia Tech and MIT, it looks like an average $20k-$30k difference... But that includes all the 20% people at Georgia Tech. The 0.01% people who went to Georgia Tech had a much easier chance of standing out to their professors (since the whole class wasn't 0.01% people, like at MIT), they got better grades than average, and they probably do better than the average starting salary.


HomerJ,

Sorry, I do have a bone to pick on your post. For many of us in the industry, we ranked undergraduate engineering program from Georgia Tech higher than MIT. MIT maybe better in graduate level.

KlangFool

P.S.: In my opinion, for undergraduate engineering program, Harvey Mudd College is #1.


absolutFinance,

IT/Data Comm / Telecomm

KlangFool

Rodc
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:42 pm

Outlier opportunities will make 160k look like a drop in the bucket.


The challenge for someone really stretching financially is that outliers are not very useful for understanding if you should personally expect enough payoff to make this a good bet.

Expected value is the benefit times the probability. And this approaches zero times infinity which is unknowable. :)

Not to mention it is also often like lottery tickets even if you do know the odds and payoff. I can find people for whom spending $2 was a wonderful thing to do with huge payoff. But not for enough people to make it a wise bet. And here we are not talking $2.

This is especially true if taking on $160K in debt means you have to take the boring corp job vs the start-up because you have a loan payment - no giant lottery like payoff possible.

Or if the loan means no grad school or delayed grad school (if one wants to go this route).

I don't think simple anecdotes are all that useful, even if real. Deeper thought is needed if the cost is a real burden.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:44 pm

Harvey Mudd

My first roommate when I started working on my PhD had a BS from HM and I had an MS from a good state school.

He knew at least as much as I did, was certainly smarter and harder working. Very impressive.

But I have had a much better career and now in his late 50s he is just trying to hang on to his job.

Go figure.

Schools have value, but there is a lot more to life and career success.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: The Tao of Clams

Post by itstoomuch » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:48 pm

itstoomuch wrote:Inspiring story, Livesoft.
itstoomuch wrote:The Tao of Clams

If you want to catch some clams, It doesn't mean that you will actually do it.
If you are prepared to get some clams, the Earth, Sun, and Moon must be aligned properly.
If the Earth, Sun, and Moon are aligned, the weather must be correct.
If the Earth, Sun, and Moon, and weather are correct, the be sure that you going after the right clam.

Clams make do with one foot.
Clams can get to where they need get to.
Clams can get there rather quickly, given the right conditions.
Clams can be tenacious once they get there.

Some Clams are more valued than other clams.
Clams of the same species have more value if they come from a certain locales.
Clams of the same species have different flavors from different locales.
Clams of the same species can be easier/harder to captured at certain locales.
Timing the capture is important.


:annoyed :oops: :idea:

I have been looking for a way to bring out the Tao of Clams.
any character resemblance to clams is coincidental
YClamExperienceMV
Rev90517; 4 Incm stream buckets: SS+pension; dfr'd GLWB VA & FI anntys, by time & $$ laddered; Discretionary; Rentals. LTCi. Own, not asset. Tax 25%. Early SS. FundRatio (FR) >1.1 67/70yo

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:56 pm

The Only, turned down HM.
I think because HM was too close and too easy to get home.
I think because HM didn't have the experience set that he wanted.
Rev90517; 4 Incm stream buckets: SS+pension; dfr'd GLWB VA & FI anntys, by time & $$ laddered; Discretionary; Rentals. LTCi. Own, not asset. Tax 25%. Early SS. FundRatio (FR) >1.1 67/70yo

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:30 pm

absolutFinance wrote:Outlier opportunities will make 160k look like a drop in the bucket.


I agree... But what percentage of people paying the extra $160k get to take advantage of the outlier opportunities? All of them? 50%? 10%?

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by absolutFinance » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:45 pm

HomerJ wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:Outlier opportunities will make 160k look like a drop in the bucket.


I agree... But what percentage of people paying the extra $160k get to take advantage of the outlier opportunities? All of them? 50%? 10%?


yeah probably less than 10%. but that's really where it's about knowing your kid and their drive. that's why i just pushed back on the general aversion to debt on principle. it didn't make sense to me.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:01 pm

absolutFinance wrote:i think you're making a mistake in assuming the best opportunities are just the same job at a higher salary. career trajectory can be substantially different - a good example is 2/3 of my graduating CS class going to Google pre-IPO and becoming millionaires. Pre-IPO recruiting was completely saturated by the best schools that if you were far enough down the list, they didn't bother coming to recruit there. But again, I'm kind of sliding into the same mistake you made.

What I mean about best opportunities are things that come from the caliber of people you go to school with, that the schools brings into your purview and who you learn from. For me, that meant exposure to entrepreneurs at a level and scale that I would not have seen elsewhere, which opened doors for me to build my own company and easily eclipse the delta we are talking about. It's different for everyone but that's what it was for me. Outlier opportunities will make 160k look like a drop in the bucket.


The median and mode averages may be the same. The mean average may be different from regional and national selectivity. The SD could be very different.

We personally have only one point. That One Point means everything to us. Other points matter little.

Tao of Clams
Finding clams is all that matters.
The perfect clam may exist but you will never find it or know it.
The best looking clam may be the best clam.
After hunting down clams all day, one clam looks about the same as the next clam.
Different clams for different locations.
Some clams will be plentiful in one location but scarce in other locations.
Different clams will thrive in some locations, do poorly in others.
Last edited by itstoomuch on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:07 pm

We personally have only one point. That One Point means everything to us. Other points matter little.

Bingo

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:22 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
We personally have only one point. That One Point means everything to us. Other points matter little.

Bingo

If I post enough, I can often get a praise. :D
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:36 pm

Have any of the folks on this thread heard of or been to Rose Hulman in Indiana? Thoughts?

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:30 pm

timmy wrote:Have any of the folks on this thread heard of or been to Rose Hulman in Indiana? Thoughts?


timmy,

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... -doctorate

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... ngineering

Rose-Hulman tied Harvey Mudd as #1 in undergraduate engineering program that do not offer doctorate.

KlangFool

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:01 pm

timmy wrote:Have any of the folks on this thread heard of or been to Rose Hulman in Indiana? Thoughts?


Had a friend whose son turned down MIT at full cost for Rose Hulman full ride.

He is doing very well and speaks very highly of the school.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Tycoon » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:21 pm

This is worse than debating which oil to put on my bike chain :shock:.
...I might be just beginning | I might be near the end. Enya | | C'est la vie

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:10 pm

My chemistry teacher in high school (public high school, btw, let's have that debate again!) got his degree from Harvey Mudd.

He was definitely one of the smartest and best teachers I've ever had.

He told us, "I say I went to Harvey Mudd real fast and most people think I said Harvard Med."

:)

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ND Fan 1 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:48 pm

timmy wrote:Have any of the folks on this thread heard of or been to Rose Hulman in Indiana? Thoughts?


I'm from Indiana, and had 2 cousins go to Rose Hulman graduated within the last 8 years, and both had zero problems with jobs and do well. 2 of their brothers went to Notre Dame and had a little more trouble with job (this coming from me, an ND grad). Terre Haute IN isn't the greatest college town, but Indy is 45 mins away. From what my cousins told me Rose Hulman is the best school for undergraduate engineering degrees, while MIT is the best for graduate school.

In regards to paying for college, I had to do it on my own, and ND was my absolute dream. So I did ROTC which gave me a partial schlarship since I was a liberal arts major. Still had 15K in loans, not bad at all. All the technical majors had full rides. I also worked year round, and didn't always fit in with some of the upper class kids there, who lived off their parents money. Joked I was the poorest kid at the school.

I personally belive a top school may open a few more doors, but soon, your work ethic, drive, and performance matter much more than a piece of paper on the wall. It only gets you so far

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:24 am

Tycoon wrote:This is worse than debating which oil to put on my bike chain :shock:.

Never use oil, attracts dirt which wear your chain and gears faster.
Use a lubricant.
:annoyed
Can't resist a good discussion and controversy
Besides, I've heard this discussion long ago, and participated on a few of them on CC.
Tao of Clams
Old Clams smell

:oops:
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by daveydoo » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:53 am

HomerJ wrote: I agree there is potential for value at elites for some, maybe even many, students. I still think Harvard, etc. take far too much credit for their students.


I agree, and I see the process and the products up close.

Imo, the super-elite schools are definitely worth the money in fields that lazily use pedigree as a proxy for future success (law, business, finance). In the actual meritocracies like medicine and science (where your resume is objective metrics like national funding and high-impact publications), the upper echelons are loaded with folks who've excelled at schools you've never heard of. Plenty of Harvards to be sure, but plenty of state schools -- and even bright small-towners who got a start in community college before transferring to "the U." For example, one of the most outstanding students I ever worked with -- and one who has continued on an impressive career trajectory -- graduated from a state school with a 90% acceptance rate.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by naha66 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:20 am

HomerJ wrote:
rrppve wrote:BIll Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were both pretty successful Harvard dropouts. Would they have succeeded just as well even if they hadn't attended Harvard for a short time. No one knows.


In no world can you possibly think that the REASON Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg became successful was because they spent a couple of semesters at Harvard. Their lives might have been different, but those two guys would have done well no matter where they went to school.

The elite schools should not get the credit for their graduates. They do not make their graduates the best and the brightest. They only take the best and the brightest to begin with. Their students are ALREADY exceptional BEFORE they go to the "elite" school. It's quite a scam they have going.

Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite


Sure, but I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.


I don't know where HomerJ went to school, but he's the smartest guy here!

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:53 am

ND Fan 1 wrote:
timmy wrote:Have any of the folks on this thread heard of or been to Rose Hulman in Indiana? Thoughts?


I'm from Indiana, and had 2 cousins go to Rose Hulman graduated within the last 8 years, and both had zero problems with jobs and do well. 2 of their brothers went to Notre Dame and had a little more trouble with job (this coming from me, an ND grad). Terre Haute IN isn't the greatest college town, but Indy is 45 mins away. From what my cousins told me Rose Hulman is the best school for undergraduate engineering degrees, while MIT is the best for graduate school.

In regards to paying for college, I had to do it on my own, and ND was my absolute dream. So I did ROTC which gave me a partial schlarship since I was a liberal arts major. Still had 15K in loans, not bad at all. All the technical majors had full rides. I also worked year round, and didn't always fit in with some of the upper class kids there, who lived off their parents money. Joked I was the poorest kid at the school.

I personally belive a top school may open a few more doors, but soon, your work ethic, drive, and perforcmance matter much more than a piece of paper on the wall. It only gets you so far



Good point on ROTC. Was 25 years ago but friend of mine did ROTC to pay for MIT

Another went to the navy and they paid for med school.

So that might be a good option to keep in mind
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ks289 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:19 am

HomerJ wrote:
ks289 wrote:However, I largely agree that the study conclusions make sense and probably have tons of truth. I just think we shouldn't just dismiss the potential for value at elites in the process for some (?many) students.


Okay, I'll meet you half-way. I agree there is potential for value at elites for some, maybe even many, students.

I still think Harvard, etc. take far too much credit for their students.

It's like if I started a basketball college, took only the best high school basketball players in the country (top 0.01%), and then proclaimed that the main reason my team does well against the state college (who takes the top 20% of high school basketball players) is because I teach basketball better than everyone else.


I agree :sharebeer
Hall of Fame coaches like Coach Calipari and even Coach K do exactly that (as far as getting credit for championships and guiding kids to become NBA lottery picks).

On the other hand, you could argue that the student athletes do get a little boost (or benefit of the doubt) from coming out of a brand name school, playing a tough conference schedule, and getting more national TV exposure. You are exactly right however that this bump does little to guarantee a great pro career if you can't play.

By the way, the Jayhawks are a true "blue blood" basketball program so I'm sure you've never complained about the advantages of being one of the elite national programs when you're dominating K-State!

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by AllenSmith » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:14 am

KlangFool wrote:
timmy wrote:
KlangFool wrote:http://news.bitofnews.com/malcom-gladwells-mindblowing-theory-on-why-its-better-to-be-a-big-fish-in-a-small-pond/

OP,

You may want to read the above article too. Aka, MIT / Stanford may not be good for you kid.

KlangFool


Thank you. I'll check it. Both my boy and I have read David and Goliath. We talked about the lessons from that, and hope to apply them. That said, Harvey Mudd and Rose Hulman are both very attractive. While top schools and very competitive to get into, they seem to be more positive once you get there (intent seems to be to fail kids at larger schools ... at least with the 100 and 200 level classes).


timmy,

For undergraduate engineering, personally, I probably will rank Harvey Mudd higher than MIT or Stanford.

<<While top schools and very competitive to get into, they seem to be more positive once you get there>>

Sorry, I disagree. Especially, if you are average or below average in those schools.

How would you feel to be the poorest among your neighbors? Ditto, how would a person feels to be the dumbest among their classmates? Do this for 4 years and the person will feel like dirt.

KlangFool


This is completely ridiculous. I went to an average high school and attended one of the Top 5 School where I was surely scheduled "to feel like dirt" as you put it. Nothing is further from the truth. It is completely worth the investment to challenge yourself and rise to the top of the top.

In addition, your 'network' of super smart people may actually work in your favor down the line. It is useless to be "king of the idiots" once you have to go to the real world

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:36 am

AllenSmith wrote:This is completely ridiculous. I went to an average high school and attended one of the Top 5 School where I was surely scheduled "to feel like dirt" as you put it. Nothing is further from the truth. It is completely worth the investment to challenge yourself and rise to the top of the top.

In addition, your 'network' of super smart people may actually work in your favor down the line. It is useless to be "king of the idiots" once you have to go to the real world


AllenSmith,

1) How do you rank in the top 5 schools? Are you in the top 33% / 25%?

<<It is completely worth the investment to challenge yourself and rise to the top of the top.>>

2) Only if you are the TOP. Or else, you are just paying for the privilege to be the door mat.

<< I went to an average high school>>

3) What if you are going to the top 10 high school of the state?

4) And, you live in one of most affluent neighborhood in the state?

<<In addition, your 'network' of super smart people may actually work in your favor down the line. >>

5) If you are born and raised among the super smart people in your neighborhood, you have the network. So, why pay the additional 100K to 120K to be the "door mat"?

<< It is useless to be "king of the idiots" once you have to go to the real world>>

6) There are more stupid people in the world than super smart people. So, how REAL a school could be when all the students are above average? In fact, if you think logically, the top 5 schools do not prepare their students for the REAL WORLD. The state schools are the better environment.

KlangFool

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:42 am

AllenSmith wrote:
This is completely ridiculous. I went to an average high school and attended one of the Top 5 School where I was surely scheduled "to feel like dirt" as you put it. Nothing is further from the truth. It is completely worth the investment to challenge yourself and rise to the top of the top.

In addition, your 'network' of super smart people may actually work in your favor down the line. It is useless to be "king of the idiots" once you have to go to the real world


AllenSmith, KlangFool is a believer that, since "the real world" will have half of its inhabitants at or below average, it is good preparation to go to school where only a proportional percentage are NMF (a dubious award that he seems to think is meaningful). Nothing will change his view, but you're welcome to bang your head against the wall. Many of us don't like to be yelled at, so we . . .

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:42 am

Tao of Clams
Smart Clams don't get caught.
Smart Clams know that being recognized smart, is death.
Clams have been on the Earth, far longer than most animals.
We honor the Clam in using their corpse (marble and cement)
Smart Clams use sophisticated statistics to survive.
Survival is to be exactly like the average clam in a massive bed of average clams.
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:50 pm

AllenSmith wrote:It is useless to be "king of the idiots" once you have to go to the real world

Best line of the thread :D
Those who went or sent their kids are believers in the value of Elites. Those who didn't will argue how it's so not worth it.
What I find funny are all those who argue the point vehemently when neither they nor their kids had an offer of admission from an Elite and hence a real choice.
Happily FIREd after going the Elite route. 8-)

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:17 pm

rrppve wrote:
AllenSmith wrote:It is useless to be "king of the idiots" once you have to go to the real world

Best line of the thread :D
Those who went or sent their kids are believers in the value of Elites. Those who didn't will argue how it's so not worth it.
What I find funny are all those who argue the point vehemently when neither they nor their kids had an offer of admission from an Elite and hence a real choice.
Happily FIREd after going the Elite route. 8-)


Yes, going on 30 years of working with, hiring and supervising the best engineers from across the top 50 or so engineering departments, elites through state Us, is likely to not result in any useful opinions. Not to mention watching the careers of many friends and neighbors who are engineers of various backgrounds.

But carry on! :)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:02 pm

??
Tao of Clams
Eating on the half shell is nothing like eating the clams on the other half.

Is this what you mean?
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by daveydoo » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:55 pm

rrppve wrote: What I find funny are all those who argue the point vehemently when neither they nor their kids had an offer of admission from an Elite and hence a real choice. Happily FIREd after going the Elite route. 8-)


OK, I'll bite. I was admitted to the elitist of the elite schools and opted for the state school route for college. I guess I had the mythical "real choice" that you refer to. I was dying to get in but in the end, I wasn't dying to actually go there. You can read my post earlier in the thread, and I stand by it.

What you do get from admission to an elite school is, seemingly, a sense of smug self-satisfaction (see above) -- and maybe I carry a little bit of that in my back pocket. But I don't thumb my nose at "the idiots" who didn't get in, or wear my crimson cap on vacation. I suspect most of those "idiots" are harder-working than you and give more to society. Elite schools increasingly groom takers and not makers -- finance, consulting, politics, etc. And with so many of the true best-and-brightest trying to figure out ways to get a hundred million people to each spend 99 cents on a crummy phone app -- well, is any of this really what we need?

Show me a field that only recruits from elite schools or, worse, a single elite school, and I'll show you a field that lacks an objective measure of potential or even success. These are the fields of bullsh*t resumes where connections mean more than quality or even competence. The great "recent advances" in business and finance have all been innovative ways to separate unsuspecting clients from their cash.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by blevine » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:50 am

This is a financial forum, so it is natural to consider investment and financial return on investment.

A close relative sent 2 children to same HYPS school,
I believe probably paid in full (no finaid).
Eldest graduates and announced he will be a teacher in an inner city school. Dad, who works in a brokerage firm as a fee based financial advisor, was upset as if this made paying the 60k/yr was a wasted investment with this financial outcome.

I personally applaud his kid.
The world needs bright teachers.
I wish my kids had a teacher in k-12 like this kid (not just smart, really nice kid).
He thinks it will make him happy.
His degrees (ba, ma) likely got him to at least be considered for any entry level job of interest.
Teaching is a very competitve profession to ultimately get
the best jobs.

By financial standards, a poor investment.
By other standards, a very good invesment.
Could he get a teaching job without HYPS, probably,
but this gave him more choices in life, some of which have more emotional payoff with less financial payoff.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:55 am

@blevine, my oldest taught for a while in the nasty parts of Philly. I was glad when she got a job in somewhat safer locations (she flies to different areas to assess grant performance). I find it limiting to consider only the narrow financial ROI; in terms of effect on the larger picture, she might well match the more outwardly "successful" kids. It's too soon to tell.

In any case, it was money well spent.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Follow-up ...

We took an opportunistic trip in August. We visited Olin, Harvard, Yale, MIT and Princeton. I took my sons best friend with ...

Olin was of interest to his friend (liked ME focus, smallness). Not to my son (less sure about ME, smallness :oops: ).

Both were turned off by Harvard. STEM was so so. Felt a bit snooty.

Both loved MIT.

My son liked Yale. His friend was so so on it.

Both loved Princeton.

Getting into these school is a lottery. You pay for the lottery ticket with great grades and test scores.

His friend ... would likely pay nothing ... at any of these schools. They offer really big need based support.

My son ... would likely pay $30K per year ... at any of these schools ... as best as I could decipher.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:22 pm

Timmy, OP wrote:We will not let him take loans (we would drop all support if he goes this route). We will not take loans. That said, we have a healthy incomes (think moderately successful engineer ... not Wall Street titan).

We have 529 savings.

Beware of a Bad Sequence of Events. Ours was 9/11. College years 2002-2006.
I didn't think we would need much in loans. But we eventually took 80% of COA at Private eng school. Initially a Full pay family.
You would do the same, :annoyed In the UGMA:
EE still had a couple of years left at 4%.
After 9/11, recovery began in 2004. Don't sell any equities with 10+ gains, annual.
LTCG was effective 0%. Dividends was effective 0%.
Student unsubsidized Stafford and PLUS got down to 1%, simple interest, refinanceable.
Interest deductible up to 75K income.
Still have 10yrs remaining on PLUS at 3%. Son has 5 years on unsub Staffords at 3%. Both are scheduled payments.
Take advantage of Good Sequence of Events.

YMMV
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:54 pm

itstoomuch ... That is some pretty rough timing!

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 pm

No worse than the other 3.7million in his 1985 cohort or about 16million in his 2001-2005 post HS cohort.

Keep your options open. Sometimes you have to "re-engineer" another solution. :annoyed
So we didn't spend down the UGMA for college. MS-CS was on fullride, courtesy of our northern neighbors. Remainder of UGMA was eventually used in 2004 (age 29) for a partial downpayment on a townhouse. 8-)

Make and take opportunities.
YMMV
GL
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:13 am

A quick update ...

ACT -> Next week

SAT -> January

He's been scoring perfect scores (ex: 36 on ACT) on the practice tests. He does well on tests in general so we are hopeful. At the same time, we don't put pressure on it. We actually don't talk about it much other than when we pick him up after school (ex: after ACT prep classes). Our view ... go through the preparation, then it's in God's hands.

Recall interest ... is in STEM ... likely some kind of engineering. Access to music program is a must, or a good Irish music group :sharebeer

Over the Summer, we looked at a bunch of east coast schools. Liked MIT and Princeton. Not hot on Yale, Harvard or Olin. We will go back in the Spring to take another look at MIT and Princeton. There are a couple of other east coast schools that we will visit too.

We've been picking off Midwest school visits this Fall, and will continue to do so.

We'll be heading west in January or February to hit the California schools.

We need to find time to go south too.

Right now, we are collecting information.

Next ...

School visits, cont'd

Get test scores back

Put together a realistic list of stretch schools, desirable schools that may or may not give money (up to full ride) and desirable schools that will (likely) offer money (full ride)

Press the plan. What are we missing? Things we are not considering. Things we should reconsidering. Schools that we are missing. I'll post on sites like this, talk to others, etc.

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