Picking College and College Scholarships

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nimo956
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by nimo956 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:07 pm

KlangFool wrote:
rrppve wrote:If the kid gets into one of the elites, he won't be the doormat. He has the talent to succeed there. The issue becomes whether they have the drive or get distracted by the various other opportunities available in the university environment.


rrppve,

You know that mathematically it does not make sense. Out of 100% students admitted to the Engineering, there will be those that are above average, average, and below average. So, at least 50% of the students admitted will be average or below average.

<<He has the talent to succeed there.>>

Statistically, 50% to 67% of the students admitted will not be getting a good deal. Aka, they are not likely to succeed. Plus, they will be paying DOUBLE for the PRIVILEGE to be the doormat.

Were you at the top 33% or 25% of your graduating class? If yes, it was a great experience for you. But, please note that for the bottom 67% to 75%, it may not be as good.

KlangFool


KlangFool is right in this regard. It is a terrible feeling for the student to struggle at places like MIT and Cornell and get poor grades (I speak from experience). This can lead to problems with depression/suicide as many people already know. Also, a poor GPA from an elite school does nothing to advance your career. Investment banking and consulting internships often require a minimum 3.5 GPA to even get interviewed. Same goes for med school, law school, etc. A friend of mine had to go out of the country for med school to make up for his poor grades at Stanford. It has taken him many additional years to get started on his intended career path. It's far better in my opinion to go to an easier school and get a high GPA.
50% VTI / 50% VXUS

rrppve
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:49 pm

Sorry, I'll just disagree here. There are many ways to fall off track at college and going to a less competitive school does not guarantee a significantly higher GPA.
Don't forget the old joke about Harvard Business School students. The A students go on to be professors, the B students become the Fotune 500 CEOs and the C students end up donating millions to the endowment.
BIll Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were both pretty successful Harvard dropouts. Would they have succeeded just as well even if they hadn't attended Harvard for a short time. No one knows.
Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite, and to deny your child the opportunity just because you are unwilling to even let them take out a loan if they want to does not fit my value system.

Rodc
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:56 pm

rrppve wrote:Sorry, I'll just disagree here. There are many ways to fall off track at college and going to a less competitive school does not guarantee a significantly higher GPA.
Don't forget the old joke about Harvard Business School students. The A students go on to be professors, the B students become the Fotune 500 CEOs and the C students end up donating millions to the endowment.
BIll Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were both pretty successful Harvard dropouts. Would they have succeeded just as well even if they hadn't attended Harvard for a short time. No one knows.
Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite, and to deny your child the opportunity just because you are unwilling to even let them take out a loan if they want to does not fit my value system.



There are no B students at Harvard. They don't do real grades. MIT does though.

Basing any decision on what worked for Bill and Mark is silly - they are so far out of the bell curve as to be meaningless as far as planning your own strategy. Might as well plan on buying lottery tickets.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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JDCarpenter
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by JDCarpenter » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:29 pm

Rodc wrote:...


There are no B students at Harvard. They don't do real grades. MIT does though.

...


True--engineering and hard-core STEM schools still grade traditionally. Son was honors grad at Mudd with 3.2X, which was far eclipsed by his brothers at highly selective schools--but who were probably just at the 50-75 percentile at their schools.
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itstoomuch
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:11 pm

Comment:
Have a range of options. Discounting options now is kinda making the decision before you have made the application. People do that. OP's child has another 16 months to get his applications In and 20 months before he will be getting acceptances, and 21 months before he makes the decision.

If I was OP, I'd worry about another BlackSwan between now and 2018+. We had one land in 2001 as Only was making out applications. We had another land as we were about to retire and when Only was doing his postgrad internships. Only's contacts at TT schools got him international internships, and aided him in finding a job in the depths of the Great Recession. :annoyed
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by mervinj7 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:19 pm

KlangFool wrote:
The flagship state university has a larger cross sections of REAL PEOPLE that my children has to deal with. Hence, it is a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for my children.

KlangFool


Why wouldn't REAL PEOPLE go to elite universities? I don't think it's just my experience but one can certainly meet folks from all walks of life (different social-economic circles, different regions of the world, different religions, vastly different upbringings) at any of the example schools being discussed. Part of that just comes from accepting students from all over the world instead of mostly from one state in one country.

KlangFool
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:30 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
The flagship state university has a larger cross sections of REAL PEOPLE that my children has to deal with. Hence, it is a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for my children.

KlangFool


Why wouldn't REAL PEOPLE go to elite universities? I don't think it's just my experience but one can certainly meet folks from all walks of life (different social-economic circles, different regions of the world, different religions, vastly different upbringings) at any of the example schools being discussed. Part of that just comes from accepting students from all over the world instead of mostly from one state in one country.


mervinj7,

How about DUMB people? People with average or below average intelligence? They constitute at least 50% or more the population.

KlangFool

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:30 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
The flagship state university has a larger cross sections of REAL PEOPLE that my children has to deal with. Hence, it is a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for my children.

KlangFool


Why wouldn't REAL PEOPLE go to elite universities? I don't think it's just my experience but one can certainly meet folks from all walks of life (different social-economic circles, different regions of the world, different religions, vastly different upbringings) at any of the example schools being discussed. Part of that just comes from accepting students from all over the world instead of mostly from one state in one country.

I know you're just asking, but don't let KlangFool get you yelling too :sharebeer

rrppve
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:43 pm

KlangFool wrote:
mervinj7 wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
The flagship state university has a larger cross sections of REAL PEOPLE that my children has to deal with. Hence, it is a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for my children.

KlangFool


Why wouldn't REAL PEOPLE go to elite universities? I don't think it's just my experience but one can certainly meet folks from all walks of life (different social-economic circles, different regions of the world, different religions, vastly different upbringings) at any of the example schools being discussed. Part of that just comes from accepting students from all over the world instead of mostly from one state in one country.


mervinj7,

How about DUMB people? People with average or below average intelligence? They constitute at least 50% or more the population.

KlangFool

Then you should just send your kid to JuCo that should be a more representative cross-section.

itstoomuch wrote:Comment:
Have a range of options. Discounting options now is kinda making the decision before you have made the application. People do that. OP's child has another 16 months to get his applications In and 20 months before he will be getting acceptances, and 21 months before he makes the decision.

Itstoomuch has it right. This is not even an issue for the vast majority of people. Let him apply to the schools they're interested in, the application fees are a pittance compared to tuition. Once they see if they are even admitted to a Top X school, and understand the scholarship/aid situation, a decision can be made based on the real options.
I must admit to being fortunate in that we put away enough in 529s to fully fund 4 year degrees at the school of kids choice. Told them it was up to them how they spent the money between undergrad and grad school. I do believe there are many ways to pay for an elite education should one want one enough, for example ROTC scholarships. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Just don't sell your kids short. Support them and let them achieve they're potential.

KlangFool
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:55 pm

rrppve wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
mervinj7 wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
The flagship state university has a larger cross sections of REAL PEOPLE that my children has to deal with. Hence, it is a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for my children.

KlangFool


Why wouldn't REAL PEOPLE go to elite universities? I don't think it's just my experience but one can certainly meet folks from all walks of life (different social-economic circles, different regions of the world, different religions, vastly different upbringings) at any of the example schools being discussed. Part of that just comes from accepting students from all over the world instead of mostly from one state in one country.


mervinj7,

How about DUMB people? People with average or below average intelligence? They constitute at least 50% or more the population.

KlangFool

Then you should just send your kid to JuCo that should be a more representative cross-section.


rrppve,

1) Actually, they did. Their high school had dual enrollment program with the JuCo. They took some classes at JuCo while in high school.

2) They worked minimum wage job at restaurants too.

3) I spent my first year at JuCo too.

It was great learning experience!

KlangFool

rrppve
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:59 pm

KlangFool wrote:
rrppve wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
mervinj7 wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
The flagship state university has a larger cross sections of REAL PEOPLE that my children has to deal with. Hence, it is a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for my children.

KlangFool


Why wouldn't REAL PEOPLE go to elite universities? I don't think it's just my experience but one can certainly meet folks from all walks of life (different social-economic circles, different regions of the world, different religions, vastly different upbringings) at any of the example schools being discussed. Part of that just comes from accepting students from all over the world instead of mostly from one state in one country.


mervinj7,

How about DUMB people? People with average or below average intelligence? They constitute at least 50% or more the population.

KlangFool

Then you should just send your kid to JuCo that should be a more representative cross-section.


rrppve,

1) Actually, they did. Their high school had dual enrollment program with the JuCo. They took some classes at JuCo while in high school.

2) They worked minimum wage job at restaurants too.

3) I spent my first year at JuCo too.

It was great learning experience!

KlangFool

You can learn from many things. Both my kids and I took college classes while in HS, some at JuCo. Not the most challenging thing in life.
How did it compare with your time at Elite U?

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:30 pm

rrppve wrote:You can learn from many things. Both my kids and I took college classes while in HS, some at JuCo. Not the most challenging thing in life.
How did it compare with your time at Elite U?


rrppve,

I got my BSEE and MSEE from an urban commuter university. 50% of the students worked full time while attending the university part-time. I worked 40 hours per week while taking 15 to 20 semester hour per semester. I did not have the luxury of being a full time student only.

But, it was worth it. I graduated with 8K of savings and 5 years of working experience. I had a head start in my engineering career.

KlangFool

rrppve
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:20 pm

KF,
I too worked my way through school. I went to an Elite and cobbled together scholarships and employment to pay. Working 20+ hours a week enabled me to qualify for employer paid tuition at my elite. Would probably not have gotten those opportunities had I not been at an Elite. I too graduated with lots of employment experience and got one of the highest $ employment offers upon graduation even without a top GPA. Also how I paid for my top tier MBA.
If you have the talent to get into an Elite, you also have the talent to figure how to pay for it if it's important to you.
Just because you made that choice, assuming that you did get an admission offer from an Elite, does not mean that it is the better choice for your kids or someone else's.
The kid who has done what it takes to get into an elite has earned the right to make their own choice. Yes I realize that parents may pose financial constraints, but as I've said before there are ways to afford an Elite education if it's important enough to the kid even if the parents are unwilling to pay full freight even if they are able.

KlangFool
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:47 pm

rrppve wrote:KF,
I too worked my way through school. I went to an Elite and cobbled together scholarships and employment to pay. Working 20+ hours a week enabled me to qualify for employer paid tuition at my elite. Would probably not have gotten those opportunities had I not been at an Elite. I too graduated with lots of employment experience and got one of the highest $ employment offers upon graduation even without a top GPA. Also how I paid for my top tier MBA.
If you have the talent to get into an Elite, you also have the talent to figure how to pay for it if it's important to you.
Just because you made that choice, assuming that you did get an admission offer from an Elite, does not mean that it is the better choice for your kids or someone else's.
The kid who has done what it takes to get into an elite has earned the right to make their own choice. Yes I realize that parents may pose financial constraints, but as I've said before there are ways to afford an Elite education if it's important enough to the kid even if the parents are unwilling to pay full freight even if they are able.


rrppve,

Good for you.

1) VTech at #21 for Engineering was the right price and good enough for my son.

2) As for my daughter, I got lucky. VCU Art School at Richmond, VA is ranked #2 in USA. I got a good deal plus one of the best Art school in USA.

KlangFool

rrppve
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:24 pm

KlangFool wrote:
rrppve wrote:KF,
I too worked my way through school. I went to an Elite and cobbled together scholarships and employment to pay. Working 20+ hours a week enabled me to qualify for employer paid tuition at my elite. Would probably not have gotten those opportunities had I not been at an Elite. I too graduated with lots of employment experience and got one of the highest $ employment offers upon graduation even without a top GPA. Also how I paid for my top tier MBA.
If you have the talent to get into an Elite, you also have the talent to figure how to pay for it if it's important to you.
Just because you made that choice, assuming that you did get an admission offer from an Elite, does not mean that it is the better choice for your kids or someone else's.
The kid who has done what it takes to get into an elite has earned the right to make their own choice. Yes I realize that parents may pose financial constraints, but as I've said before there are ways to afford an Elite education if it's important enough to the kid even if the parents are unwilling to pay full freight even if they are able.


rrppve,

Good for you.

1) VTech at #21 for Engineering was the right price and good enough for my son.

2) As for my daughter, I got lucky. VCU Art School at Richmond, VA is ranked #2 in USA. I got a good deal plus one of the best Art school in USA.

KlangFool

Good for your kids! The opportunities met the "good enough" standard. Not sure I've ever seen VCU ranked #2, but I'll take you at your word that there is some such ranking.
As has been pointed out before, if the kid hasn't earned an admission offer to an Elite, the whole discussion is moot.

Rodc
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:25 pm

KlangFool wrote:
rrppve wrote:KF,
I too worked my way through school. I went to an Elite and cobbled together scholarships and employment to pay. Working 20+ hours a week enabled me to qualify for employer paid tuition at my elite. Would probably not have gotten those opportunities had I not been at an Elite. I too graduated with lots of employment experience and got one of the highest $ employment offers upon graduation even without a top GPA. Also how I paid for my top tier MBA.
If you have the talent to get into an Elite, you also have the talent to figure how to pay for it if it's important to you.
Just because you made that choice, assuming that you did get an admission offer from an Elite, does not mean that it is the better choice for your kids or someone else's.
The kid who has done what it takes to get into an elite has earned the right to make their own choice. Yes I realize that parents may pose financial constraints, but as I've said before there are ways to afford an Elite education if it's important enough to the kid even if the parents are unwilling to pay full freight even if they are able.


rrppve,

Good for you.

1) VTech at #21 for Engineering was the right price and good enough for my son.

2) As for my daughter, I got lucky. VCU Art School at Richmond, VA is ranked #2 in USA. I got a good deal plus one of the best Art school in USA.

KlangFool


Go Hokies!

I have hired some VaTech grads in recent years. They are doing very well. Best of luck to your son.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by blevine » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:32 pm

FWIW, one in an elite eng school now, one to start another soon.

Based on my eldest, I find that today collaborative learning is encouraged at least at his college.
He learns as much from his peers as from professors.
His professors in Comp Sci actually encourage you to work with a partner on homework assignments
(pairs of students turn in officially together).

My eldest transferred from an in state public, one that was pretty competitive, and yet he found
collaboration with other students hit or miss. Yes top students there were good, but many were not.
No exceptions at his new elite school, so far. He is much happier where he is now, and does not mind
if he is or is not the top student there, motivated by learning, not grades.

My youngest got a merit scholarship from a very good private, still double the cost of our in state schools,
but will also be surrounded by extremely bright kids, which motivates him significantly as well, at least it
did in HS taking honors and AP classes, working with other bright kids on homework and studying for finals.

The state where you live makes a difference too, we have good but not great public schools in our state.
Maybe if we were in Michigan or some other state with elite publics, we might have gone that direction.
But so far I am very glad my eldest is in his elite private, it has been very good for him.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:05 pm

rrppve wrote:
Good for your kids! The opportunities met the "good enough" standard. Not sure I've ever seen VCU ranked #2, but I'll take you at your word that there is some such ranking.
As has been pointed out before, if the kid hasn't earned an admission offer to an Elite, the whole discussion is moot.


rrppve,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCU_School_of_the_Arts`

VCU only ranked #2 for Arts which is the major that my daughter is interested in. I got lucky.

KlangFool

rrppve
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:21 pm

#2 for GRAD school in Arts. #156 for Natuinal University. Is she an undergrad or grad?
Glad that you feel lucky or even better that your daughter feels lucky.
Did she get into Yale which is ranked #1?

KlangFool
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:24 pm

rrppve wrote:#2 for GRAD school in Arts. #156 for Natuinal University. Is she an undergrad or grad?
Glad that you feel lucky or even better that your daughter feels lucky.
Did she get into Yale which is ranked #1?


rrppve,

We are not interested in Yale. We did not apply at all. We did not apply any out of state schools.

KlangFool

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by rrppve » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:57 pm

KlangFool wrote:We are not interested in Yale. We did not apply at all. We did not apply any out of state schools.

KlangFool

Too bad that Virginia and many other states aren't host to an Elite. UVA comes closest in the public realm. Thinking like this seems very narrow, provincial, to me. I'm sure some would say my Elite focus strikes them similarly. Sorry that the kids weren't given the freedom to explore all of their options.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:01 pm

livesoft wrote:And of course, bogleheads.org has all your problems solved in spades because lots of readers graduated from Stanford and MIT and sent there kids there. Here is a 6-page thread to read: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=171074


Actually lots of readers graduated from State U, are now making a ton of money, yet somehow think their kid will fail in life unless the kid gets into Stanford or MIT.

Very strange.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:49 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
welldone wrote:I personally believe that your son would be better off looking at schools 1-2 tiers below MIT/Stanford to be in real contention for the merit monies those "lesser" schools offer to attract applicants like your son.


This is exactly what I was going to say. MIT and Stanford give grand sums of $0 out in merit money to undergrads. Why? Because there are plenty of high-caliber students willing to pay full price. Go one tier down from your son's scores and the schools will be giving him merit-based scholarships to incent him to attend.

A primer book I found useful to understand how colleges work admissions/merit-rewards decisions if you don't want to pay full price is this one:
The College Solution: A Guide for Everyone Looking for the Right School at the Right Price (2nd Edition)May 3, 2012
by Lynn O'Shaughnessy


I'll check the book out. Thanks for the lead.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:52 pm

HomerJ wrote:
livesoft wrote:And of course, bogleheads.org has all your problems solved in spades because lots of readers graduated from Stanford and MIT and sent there kids there. Here is a 6-page thread to read: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=171074


Actually lots of readers graduated from State U, are now making a ton of money, yet somehow think their kid will fail in life unless the kid gets into Stanford or MIT.

Very strange.


Ha, I attended a low end state school and have got along just fine. I see this as an optimization problem (best school for him vs. what we can/ will pay) to be solved for, not as pass/ fail (Yale or jail)

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:55 pm

blevine wrote:FWIW, one in an elite eng school now, one to start another soon.

Based on my eldest, I find that today collaborative learning is encouraged at least at his college.
He learns as much from his peers as from professors.
His professors in Comp Sci actually encourage you to work with a partner on homework assignments
(pairs of students turn in officially together).

My eldest transferred from an in state public, one that was pretty competitive, and yet he found
collaboration with other students hit or miss. Yes top students there were good, but many were not.
No exceptions at his new elite school, so far. He is much happier where he is now, and does not mind
if he is or is not the top student there, motivated by learning, not grades.

My youngest got a merit scholarship from a very good private, still double the cost of our in state schools,
but will also be surrounded by extremely bright kids, which motivates him significantly as well, at least it
did in HS taking honors and AP classes, working with other bright kids on homework and studying for finals.

The state where you live makes a difference too, we have good but not great public schools in our state.
Maybe if we were in Michigan or some other state with elite publics, we might have gone that direction.
But so far I am very glad my eldest is in his elite private, it has been very good for him.


Nice job. And thanks for your story.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:03 pm

itstoomuch wrote:Comment:
Have a range of options. Discounting options now is kinda making the decision before you have made the application. People do that. OP's child has another 16 months to get his applications In and 20 months before he will be getting acceptances, and 21 months before he makes the decision.

If I was OP, I'd worry about another BlackSwan between now and 2018+. We had one land in 2001 as Only was making out applications. We had another land as we were about to retire and when Only was doing his postgrad internships. Only's contacts at TT schools got him international internships, and aided him in finding a job in the depths of the Great Recession. :annoyed
YMMV


We've been thinking about that. Thoughts are ...

Have at least one year tuition in 529. Hold until 4th year.

Stay out of school one year. Work. We sock away money. We'd have two years of savings then. He could also try to find work in the area of interest. Ex: He can code already, do website design, tutor math and work in a basic chemical lab (say doing wet chemistry).

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:08 pm

rrppve wrote:KF,
I too worked my way through school. I went to an Elite and cobbled together scholarships and employment to pay. Working 20+ hours a week enabled me to qualify for employer paid tuition at my elite. Would probably not have gotten those opportunities had I not been at an Elite. I too graduated with lots of employment experience and got one of the highest $ employment offers upon graduation even without a top GPA. Also how I paid for my top tier MBA.
If you have the talent to get into an Elite, you also have the talent to figure how to pay for it if it's important to you.
Just because you made that choice, assuming that you did get an admission offer from an Elite, does not mean that it is the better choice for your kids or someone else's.
The kid who has done what it takes to get into an elite has earned the right to make their own choice. Yes I realize that parents may pose financial constraints, but as I've said before there are ways to afford an Elite education if it's important enough to the kid even if the parents are unwilling to pay full freight even if they are able.


Great story.

In terms of choices, I agree. 18 year olds can make whatever choices they want. I've made it clear to mine what my guard rails are. If he decides to go beyond those, we will love him unconditionally, try not to be mad and give him some starter money ... but he'll be on his own.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:14 pm

rrppve wrote:Sorry, I'll just disagree here. There are many ways to fall off track at college and going to a less competitive school does not guarantee a significantly higher GPA.
Don't forget the old joke about Harvard Business School students. The A students go on to be professors, the B students become the Fotune 500 CEOs and the C students end up donating millions to the endowment.
BIll Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were both pretty successful Harvard dropouts. Would they have succeeded just as well even if they hadn't attended Harvard for a short time. No one knows.
Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite, and to deny your child the opportunity just because you are unwilling to even let them take out a loan if they want to does not fit my value system.


I like that bit about Harvard. Funny, and probably true enough.

I can respect your view on debt. Thanks for your thoughts.

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The Tao of Clams

Post by itstoomuch » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:41 pm

The Tao of Clams

If you want to catch some clams, It doesn't mean that you will actually do it.
If you are prepared to get some clams, the Earth, Sun, and Moon must be aligned properly.
If the Earth, Sun, and Moon are aligned, the weather must be correct.
If the Earth, Sun, and Moon, and weather are correct, the be sure that you going after the right clam.
:annoyed :oops: :idea:

I have been looking for a way to bring out the Tao of Clams.
Eating the last of the cockle clams that graciously revealed themselves to my feet.
YClamExperienceMV
Rev90517; 4 Incm stream buckets: SS+pension; dfr'd GLWB VA & FI anntys, by time & $$ laddered; Discretionary; Rentals. LTCi. Own, not asset. Tax 25%. Early SS. FundRatio (FR) >1.1 67/70yo

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by absolutFinance » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:42 pm

i'll admit my bias up front, i'm a Stanford alum (in this century). had a great experience, graduated with an A- average and found life there very challenging but also very satisfying. i even got lucky and met my future wife there.

the debt aversion seems penny wise pound foolish to me. college is about opportunity. the best schools present the best opportunities: classmates, professors, facilities, recruiters, etc. it's one thing if the funds aren't available or the demands create unreasonable compromises. but just avoiding debt for the sake of debt, particularly when your son is interested in pursuing lucrative fields in engineering, doesn't make sense to me. you could look at the debt as leverage for your child's future. could they screw it up and waste the $? absolutely. is it highly likely? no. KlangFool's analysis doesn't make sense in the context of top schools - the hiring #'s just don't bear it out.

just some food for thought...

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Bfwolf » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:21 am

absolutFinance wrote:i'll admit my bias up front, i'm a Stanford alum (in this century). had a great experience, graduated with an A- average and found life there very challenging but also very satisfying. i even got lucky and met my future wife there.

the debt aversion seems penny wise pound foolish to me. college is about opportunity. the best schools present the best opportunities: classmates, professors, facilities, recruiters, etc. it's one thing if the funds aren't available or the demands create unreasonable compromises. but just avoiding debt for the sake of debt, particularly when your son is interested in pursuing lucrative fields in engineering, doesn't make sense to me. you could look at the debt as leverage for your child's future. could they screw it up and waste the $? absolutely. is it highly likely? no. KlangFool's analysis doesn't make sense in the context of top schools - the hiring #'s just don't bear it out.

just some food for thought...


You may want to review the discussion had on this thread regarding a study that found that among generally good to great schools, where you go doesn't determine how much you make in the future.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=189265&start=100

It brings into question whether indeed "the best schools present the best opportunities." UIUC is an overall good school, an excellent engineering school, and a whole heckuva lot cheaper than the top private options. I think that in colleges, like investing, you don't always get what you pay for.

This is a very small sample size, but among my 6 close high school friends and me, 4 of us went to the excellent flagship in-state university and 3 of us went to top private schools (including Stanford and Harvard). We all did well professionally. I suspect the same will be true of the OP's child regardless of how much is spent on his education.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by absolutFinance » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:42 am

the problem with studies at scale is that they are talking about averages. and you can play averages all day long to get the best expected value. but for one child, with one choice of school, you may not want to optimize for the average outcome, but instead for an outlier. the best schools have opportunities that don't exist at other schools.

UIUC has a great engineering program. sounds like it's 30k vs 70k (Stanford). 160k over 4 years is the differential. seems like a lot but over a lifetime of earnings that will probably exceed 5M for an engineer graduating today? not that big of a deal even if you end up with the same outcome as if you had gone to the lesser school. i know the comp packages for me and my classmates coming out of school were higher than the large state schools by a meaningful percentage (15-20%).

Bfwolf wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:i'll admit my bias up front, i'm a Stanford alum (in this century). had a great experience, graduated with an A- average and found life there very challenging but also very satisfying. i even got lucky and met my future wife there.

the debt aversion seems penny wise pound foolish to me. college is about opportunity. the best schools present the best opportunities: classmates, professors, facilities, recruiters, etc. it's one thing if the funds aren't available or the demands create unreasonable compromises. but just avoiding debt for the sake of debt, particularly when your son is interested in pursuing lucrative fields in engineering, doesn't make sense to me. you could look at the debt as leverage for your child's future. could they screw it up and waste the $? absolutely. is it highly likely? no. KlangFool's analysis doesn't make sense in the context of top schools - the hiring #'s just don't bear it out.

just some food for thought...


You may want to review the discussion had on this thread regarding a study that found that among generally good to great schools, where you go doesn't determine how much you make in the future.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=189265&start=100

It brings into question whether indeed "the best schools present the best opportunities." UIUC is an overall good school, an excellent engineering school, and a whole heckuva lot cheaper than the top private options. I think that in colleges, like investing, you don't always get what you pay for.

This is a very small sample size, but among my 6 close high school friends and me, 4 of us went to the excellent flagship in-state university and 3 of us went to top private schools (including Stanford and Harvard). We all did well professionally. I suspect the same will be true of the OP's child regardless of how much is spent on his education.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ks289 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:13 am

HomerJ wrote:
livesoft wrote:And of course, bogleheads.org has all your problems solved in spades because lots of readers graduated from Stanford and MIT and sent there kids there. Here is a 6-page thread to read: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=171074


Actually lots of readers graduated from State U, are now making a ton of money, yet somehow think their kid will fail in life unless the kid gets into Stanford or MIT.

Very strange.


Homer,
I think the elitist attitude you are sensing is really not what I believe (sorry if I get obnoxious sometimes), nor what I sense from what other posters are actually writing. Rather, it seems obvious and beyond debate that smart, hard working individuals can be successful from numerous different pathways (no college, college dropout, attending non selective college, or attending selective college). I believe that there is value for students to try to find the right school which best suits their needs, and yes sometimes that might be a smaller, more selective school (and sometimes that may be in-state public school). Cost is an obvious factor too.

I also agree that engineering may be different from other fields as well. I knew before attending college that engineering was not for me, so I turned down my MIT acceptance to go elsewhere which ended up a better fit.

The issue I personally find puzzling is the premise that there is no value or even harm except for a small slice of matriculants at competitive schools. That was not my impression or my wife's impression at all in college. In fact, the very study that is widely quoted specifically states that certain minorities and students from disadvantaged backgrounds clearly do benefit from attending more selective schools.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w17159.pdf
To me, this anti-elitist ranting rankles me as much as the "snobbery" rankles others.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:28 am

timmy wrote:
rrppve wrote:Sorry, I'll just disagree here. There are many ways to fall off track at college and going to a less competitive school does not guarantee a significantly higher GPA.
Don't forget the old joke about Harvard Business School students. The A students go on to be professors, the B students become the Fotune 500 CEOs and the C students end up donating millions to the endowment.
BIll Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were both pretty successful Harvard dropouts. Would they have succeeded just as well even if they hadn't attended Harvard for a short time. No one knows.
Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite, and to deny your child the opportunity just because you are unwilling to even let them take out a loan if they want to does not fit my value system.


I like that bit about Harvard. Funny, and probably true enough.

I can respect your view on debt. Thanks for your thoughts.


Funny but not very real life. As noted above all Harvard students are A students. This has been reported on and is well known.

I know many Harvard grads, nice people. Several live in my neighborhood. Several from MIT too. Not at all a scientifically defined sample of course. All make a very good living, but not better than the larger set of my neighbors who went to state universities or lesser private colleges.

Elites are good schools. They certainly provide intangible benefits. They are not magically better than other good solid schools when it comes to life outcomes. Life outcome is driven far more by the intrinsic human attributes a person has.

If one has a child both gifted enough and lucky enough to get in Harvard/MIT/Stanford/Yale (many more are qualified than there is space for), and you have the money go for it and be proud. But if your child is gifted enough and not lucky it is not that big of a loss as there are many fine schools and your child will very likely do just as well in life and have a great experience. If your child is gifted enough and lucky enough to get in, but it would be very hard to cover the price don't worry about it - this is not a life tragedy, and one should not drive themselves into poverty or even real hardship just so their kid can go to a name brand school (and this goes double or triple for all those second tier schools that cost essentially as much as MIT/Harvard/etc).

This topic is clearly emotional, on both sides, for many, but the sides seem driven more by dogma that rational thought IMHO. :)

A good life is made of many many steps and decisions and some just plain good old fashioned luck. A life is not going to be made or destroyed based on which college the child goes too.

Like your asset allocation - you cannot make it perfect, but that is ok. It just needs to be good enough and that includes a rather wide range of options.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:15 am

timmy wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
livesoft wrote:And of course, bogleheads.org has all your problems solved in spades because lots of readers graduated from Stanford and MIT and sent there kids there. Here is a 6-page thread to read: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=171074


Actually lots of readers graduated from State U, are now making a ton of money, yet somehow think their kid will fail in life unless the kid gets into Stanford or MIT.

Very strange.


Ha, I attended a low end state school and have got along just fine. I see this as an optimization problem (best school for him vs. what we can/ will pay) to be solved for, not as pass/ fail (Yale or jail)


Yale or jail, I like it! We have an unfortunate non-trivial segment in town who seem to believe that failing to get into an Ivy is essentially a life tragedy. I do not think this does the kids any favor.

FWIW a friend of mine who did go to MIT has a son who had perfect SAT scores but only solid but not perfect grades, and naturally did not get in to MIT. Dad was very upset and talked about nothing else for months. Kid went to the Honors Program at the flagship State U in engineering and is happy as can be. Now a junior so still a work in progress, but he is happy. Dad is now happy as well.

Another friend, Dad went to MIT as well, has a very talented daughter off to school next fall. Did not get into MIT but did get into GA Tech and some other schools, but chose to go to U MD Honors program with a good aid package just to escape the extreme pressure. Parents somewhat concerned about the choice, though happy to not be paying full cost as they have more kids to follow. She will do extremely well there and knowing her I'd bet she will do very well in life.

Lots of perfectly fine paths for these gifted kids.

best school for him vs. what we can/ will pay


This is a healthy attitude, just keeping in mind you can't really know what is truly best.

Given you laid this out early, I am not sure how this turned into a fight about elite schools at all cost.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:11 am

"Lots of perfectly fine paths for these gifted kids."

Agree. In the end, I'm not worried. He's smart, a hard worker. He'll be good.

"This is a healthy attitude, just keeping in mind you can't really know what is truly best."

Fair.

"Given you laid this out early, I am not sure how this turned into a fight about elite schools at all cost."

Oh, the debate is good. We will be well armed with data and research by the time we need to make a decision. Personal stories inform within that context.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:25 am

Bfwolf wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:i'll admit my bias up front, i'm a Stanford alum (in this century). had a great experience, graduated with an A- average and found life there very challenging but also very satisfying. i even got lucky and met my future wife there.

the debt aversion seems penny wise pound foolish to me. college is about opportunity. the best schools present the best opportunities: classmates, professors, facilities, recruiters, etc. it's one thing if the funds aren't available or the demands create unreasonable compromises. but just avoiding debt for the sake of debt, particularly when your son is interested in pursuing lucrative fields in engineering, doesn't make sense to me. you could look at the debt as leverage for your child's future. could they screw it up and waste the $? absolutely. is it highly likely? no. KlangFool's analysis doesn't make sense in the context of top schools - the hiring #'s just don't bear it out.

just some food for thought...


You may want to review the discussion had on this thread regarding a study that found that among generally good to great schools, where you go doesn't determine how much you make in the future.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=189265&start=100

It brings into question whether indeed "the best schools present the best opportunities." UIUC is an overall good school, an excellent engineering school, and a whole heckuva lot cheaper than the top private options. I think that in colleges, like investing, you don't always get what you pay for.

This is a very small sample size, but among my 6 close high school friends and me, 4 of us went to the excellent flagship in-state university and 3 of us went to top private schools (including Stanford and Harvard). We all did well professionally. I suspect the same will be true of the OP's child regardless of how much is spent on his education.


Thanks. My experience is close to it.

My sense is elite schools help if you plan on climbing a company ladder. If you are planning on staying in pure engineering, an elite school is less critical.

In terms of UIUC, yes a great school. We've been keeping our ear to the ground locally for the past few years. UIUC tends not to offer money. SO other schools can quickly compete when offering some money.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:37 am

timmy wrote:"Lots of perfectly fine paths for these gifted kids."

Agree. In the end, I'm not worried. He's smart, a hard worker. He'll be good.

"This is a healthy attitude, just keeping in mind you can't really know what is truly best."

Fair.

"Given you laid this out early, I am not sure how this turned into a fight about elite schools at all cost."

Oh, the debate is good. We will be well armed with data and research by the time we need to make a decision. Personal stories inform within that context.


timmy,

Please make sure that your son applies for the honor program too. Once that he is accepted, he can decide whether he wants to be in the honor program later.

KlangFool

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:04 am

rrppve wrote:BIll Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were both pretty successful Harvard dropouts. Would they have succeeded just as well even if they hadn't attended Harvard for a short time. No one knows.


In no world can you possibly think that the REASON Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg became successful was because they spent a couple of semesters at Harvard. Their lives might have been different, but those two guys would have done well no matter where they went to school.

The elite schools should not get the credit for their graduates. They do not make their graduates the best and the brightest. They only take the best and the brightest to begin with. Their students are ALREADY exceptional BEFORE they go to the "elite" school. It's quite a scam they have going.

Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite


Sure, but I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.
Last edited by HomerJ on Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:10 am

absolutFinance wrote:the debt aversion seems penny wise pound foolish to me.


We're not talking pennies to pounds. Studies have shown that people who were accepted to elite universities (i.e. already a member of the best and the brightest) did just as well even if they didn't go to an elite university.

The benefits are marginal; you don't automatically get twice the salary just because you went to an elite school. Especially if we're talking engineering.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:25 am

HomerJ wrote:
absolutFinance wrote:the debt aversion seems penny wise pound foolish to me.


We're not talking pennies to pounds. Studies have shown that people who were accepted to elite universities (i.e. already a member of the best and the brightest) did just as well even if they didn't go to an elite university.

The benefits are marginal; you don't automatically get twice the salary just because you went to an elite school.


HomerJ,

1) The problem is as far as we can tell the benefits only applies to the top 25% to 33% of the students. For the remaining 75% to 67%, the impact is negative.

2) We know and can calculate the financial benefit of not spending the 100K to 150K.

3) In any case, if the person is SMART ENOUGH, he / she can attend the elite university at the graduate level. And, for the most cases, it will be done with full sponsorship by the employer and / or full ride scholarship.

Why spend that kind of money on an undergraduate degree with UNKNOWN benefits?

There are more cost effective way to reach the same goal. Aka, "Big Fish in a Small Pond"

A) Flagship state school

B) Honor college of lower tier school

C) Honor college of flagship state school

In many cases, the pond might be small but the person is the BIG FISH. Hence, the person has ACCESS to all the resources available at the small pond. Meanwhile, the Big Fish at the Big Pond has no access to the resources of the big pond unless he / she is the top 25% to 33%.

Value for the money spent.

KlangFool

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by livesoft » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:30 am

timmy wrote: Personal stories inform within that context.

A personal story: My parents actively discouraged me from applying to any college that cost money. "We are not going to pay for it, so you might as well not apply because you won't be able to go anyways." I was working full-time (40+ hours a week) in high school to save for college and did not have time for extracurriculars (ECs). I applied to Virginia Tech and was accepted. I didn't go there. My friend encouraged me to apply to a private elite university that was out of state. I was accepted. My parents said, "We aren't paying for anything but room & board, so you shouldn't go there because you don't have enough money to pay for it." I had enough money of my own for the first semester, so I decided to go anyways. My parents said, "How are you going to get there? We are not going to pay for you to get there." I found a bus ticket for a 24 hour ride to college. My parents said, "How are you going to get to the bus station. We are not taking you down there." I begged my mom to drive me to the bus station because I didn't have cab fare.

At the end of the 24 hour bus ride, I didn't have cab fare to get to the university dorm. I found someone to share a ride with that I would pay back later.

At school, I got a job in the first week as a custodian. I kept that job for all the years I was in college. It had the perfect 20+ hours a week that didn't interfere with classes. I got a letter from my Organic Chem professor my freshman year telling me that I had the top grade in all the organic chem classes at the university that year. I also found a job in a research lab. I had 2 papers published from my undergraduate research in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. Because school as so expensive, I took extra classes and graduated in 3 years to save me a full year of college expenses. I went on to grad school and a career in science.

So now folks can see why I always encourage my kids to "Do it themselves." I would encourage parents not to discourage their children about where they want to go to school. I can see having discussions along the way, but I can say that "where there's a will, there's a way", too.

My kids went to college. One goes to a state university where costs are about $20K a year. The other went to a university where costs this year are reported to be $70K a year.
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ks289 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:33 am

HomerJ wrote:
It's quite a scam they have going.

I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.


:oops:
Too dismissive.
For many families, the actual price difference is far less or even cheaper than state U after aid. For other families, the cost is not significant.
For some families, the state "flagship" is limited in its offerings or appeal. The appeal of state U has come under pressure in many states recently as a result of funding cuts which are diminishing the value aspect of many state U's.
Moreover, applying non-randomized studies comparing mainly selective schools to broadly conclude that schools have no impact on outcomes (even purely for finances) is not valid.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:41 am

@livesoft, thanks for that back story. Nothing beats drive. :sharebeer

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Big Dog » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:42 am

Sorry, I'll just disagree here.


Me too. And don't forget that HYPSM et al have a high median GPA. In other words, they award many more high grades than low grades. Not saying its easier to graduate with an A-, but median at Harvard is a 3.65 at Stanford is ~3.6. In other words, the average grad is a B+/A- student. In contrast, the average GPA at VaTech is a ~3.1. Yes, the competition is different, but top employers will go much deeper into the class at H & S than they will most publics.

Nevertheless, I happen to believe there are real intangible benefits to attending an elite,


Concur.

There are also real tangible benefits as the top dozen or so schools provide the most generous financial aid in the form of grants; they also cap the amount of home equity in the fin aid calc. For kid #1, attending one of the Ancient Eight was less expensive than attending our instate public flagship.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:43 am

livesoft wrote:
timmy wrote: Personal stories inform within that context.

A personal story: My parents actively discouraged me from applying to any college that cost money. "We are not going to pay for it, so you might as well not apply because you won't be able to go anyways." I was working full-time (40+ hours a week) in high school to save for college and did not have time for extracurriculars (ECs). I applied to Virginia Tech and was accepted. I didn't go there. My friend encouraged me to apply to a private elite university that was out of state. I was accepted. My parents said, "We aren't paying for anything but room & board, so you shouldn't go there because you don't have enough money to pay for it." I had enough money of my own for the first semester, so I decided to go anyways. My parents said, "How are you going to get there? We are not going to pay for you to get there." I found a bus ticket for a 24 hour ride to college. My parents said, "How are you going to get to the bus station. We are not taking you down there." I begged my mom to drive me to the bus station because I didn't have cab fare.

At the end of the 24 hour bus ride, I didn't have cab fare to get to the university dorm. I found someone to share a ride with that I would pay back later.

At school, I got a job in the first week as a custodian. I kept that job for all the years I was in college. It had the perfect 20+ hours a week that didn't interfere with classes. I got a letter from my Organic Chem professor my freshman year telling me that I had the top grade in all the organic chem classes at the university that year. I also found a job in a research lab. I had 2 papers published from my undergraduate research in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. Because school as so expensive, I took extra classes and graduated in 3 years to save me a full year of college expenses. I went on to grad school and a career in science.

So now folks can see why I always encourage my kids to "Do it themselves." I would encourage parents not to discourage their children about where they want to go to school. I can see having discussions along the way, but I can say that "where there's a will, there's a way", too.

My kids went to college. One goes to a state university where costs are about $20K a year. The other went to a university where costs this year are reported to be $70K a year.


livesoft,

1) Great story!

<< My kids went to college. One goes to a state university where costs are about $20K a year. The other went to a university where costs this year are reported to be $70K a year.>>

2) Who pays for the 20K and 70K per year for your kids?

KlangFool

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by livesoft » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:54 am

KlangFool wrote:2) Who pays for the 20K and 70K per year for your kids?

My kids work, but neither of them pay for college. My spouse's parents paid 100% of her college expenses and gave her a car at the time, too. So she told our kids they would get everything paid for.

I will note that the $70K a year school did not cost $70K a year. It was more like $50K a year because daughter lived frugally and did not fly first-class from home to school and back. She also graduated early saving some bucks. She worked during school and we are not sure what she did with her money. Also although the stock market did not do well in 2008-2009, it did do great in the years after. When one's portfolio goes up every year by many multiples of a year of college expenses, it is not hard to pay for college.
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Rodc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:58 am

ks289 wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
It's quite a scam they have going.

I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.


:oops:
Too dismissive.
For many families, the actual price difference is far less or even cheaper than state U after aid. For other families, the cost is not significant.
For some families, the state "flagship" is limited in its offerings or appeal. The appeal of state U has come under pressure in many states recently as a result of funding cuts which are diminishing the value aspect of many state U's.
Moreover, applying non-randomized studies comparing mainly selective schools to broadly conclude that schools have no impact on outcomes (even purely for finances) is not valid.


http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/t ... nings-myth

This reports on the most scientific study I know of.

Here is the paper:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

The study looks at top students, some of whom go to highly selective colleges and some who do not. That is difference is not in the quality of the students but in the school. The metric is income some years after school, so does not cover intangibles. In general there is no benefit in income seen from the highly selective school, other for some important subgroups like disadvantaged students.

Now it might still be beneficial for certain other subgroups that are too small to move the average - like folks headed to elite academic careers.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by KlangFool » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:02 am

livesoft wrote:
KlangFool wrote:2) Who pays for the 20K and 70K per year for your kids?

My kids work, but neither of them pay for college. My spouse's parents paid 100% of her college expenses and gave her a car at the time, too. So she told our kids they would get everything paid for.

I will note that the $70K a year school did not cost $70K a year. It was more like $50K a year because daughter lived frugally and did not fly first-class from home to school and back. She also graduated early saving some bucks. She worked during school and we are not sure what she did with her money. Also although the stock market did not do well in 2008-2009, it did do great in the years after. When one's portfolio goes up every year by many multiples of a year of college expenses, it is not hard to pay for college.


livesoft,

Thanks for providing the full picture.

KlangFool

ks289
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ks289 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:08 am

Rodc wrote:
ks289 wrote:
HomerJ wrote:
It's quite a scam they have going.

I don't believe those benefits are worth $150,000.


:oops:
Too dismissive.
For many families, the actual price difference is far less or even cheaper than state U after aid. For other families, the cost is not significant.
For some families, the state "flagship" is limited in its offerings or appeal. The appeal of state U has come under pressure in many states recently as a result of funding cuts which are diminishing the value aspect of many state U's.
Moreover, applying non-randomized studies comparing mainly selective schools to broadly conclude that schools have no impact on outcomes (even purely for finances) is not valid.


http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/t ... nings-myth

This reports on the most scientific study I know of.

Here is the paper:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

The study looks at top students, some of whom go to highly selective colleges and some who do not. That is difference is not in the quality of the students but in the school. The metric is income some years after school, so does not cover intangibles. In general there is no benefit in income seen from the highly selective school, other for some important subgroups like disadvantaged students.

Now it might still be beneficial for certain other subgroups that are too small to move the average - like folks headed to elite academic careers.


Those are exactly among the widely cited non randomized studies I am referring to. They examine income data from students (who obviously choose their college themselves) who attended elite schools vs good schools. Nobody can ever do a randomized study here since few students would wish to have a random number generator determine which school (elite vs good) they attend.
My point about the randomization aspect (as with any non randomized study) is that confounding factors are unavoidable. The students who chose the non elite school may have overwhelming done so because there was a better fit or program at the less selcective school. When we say there is no difference just go to the cheaper place, we are not replicating the circumstances of these studies and therefore should not attempt to draw the same conclusions.
However, I largely agree that the study conclusions make sense and probably have tons of truth. I just think we shouldn't just dismiss the potential for value at elites in the process for some (?many) students.

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