Major - Accounting or Finance

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goru1
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Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by goru1 »

Which is a better suggestion accounting ( CPA, Big 4, Corporate, Possible MBA ) or finance ( Possible CFA, Corporate, Possible MBA ) from national universities ranked 25 to 75 ?
staybalanced
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by staybalanced »

I think accounting, or do both as a double major. I did accounting, as I think it is more flexible. I am not an accountant, I run a home service business, but it gave me a very good background in to financials. The school I attended also had required finance classes as part of that degree, along with business electives.

At the same time, you can get a masters and sit for CPA with an undergrad in finance, so I guess both fairly flexible.
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WingsFan4Life
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by WingsFan4Life »

I have an accounting degree and have the designation Certified Management Accountant (CMA) from the Institute of Management Accountants. That said, I did not graduate from top 25-75 ranked school. I now work as a pricing analyst for a major automotive supplier. Before that I worked a Koch Brothers owned company as a plant accountant, and before that as a cost accountant at a small manufacturing company.

Now, as a pricing analyst, I no longer work as an accountant, but still use enormous amounts of cost accounting knowledge pricing future business that we are trying to win from the major automakers. I love that my life no longer revolves around the end of the month reporting cycle.

I would say there is a lot more opportunities with an accounting degree where you can branch out into any area of business.
alex_686
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by alex_686 »

Accounting. It is considered the more rigorous degree. I have seen accountants go over to finance or get a CFA but I have seen few finance people go over to accounting.

I would also consider economics over finance. Once again, it is considered the more rigorous degree.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
jpelder
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by jpelder »

I suppose it depends on what you want to do. To the best of my knowledge (and I studied science, not business, so I may be mistaken), Accounting is a much more specific type of education than finance, especially if you pursue a CPA/any graduate education. I believe finance requires more theoretical thinking, while accounting is very applied. See http://www.topuniversities.com/courses/ ... -you-study for more information

I imagine you'll take an introductory course in each field as a part of your business school core, so speak with those professors to get their input
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quantAndHold
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by quantAndHold »

It depends on what you want to do after graduation. Both of those lead to different careers.

Personally, I would choose economics. But shouldn't your kid be choosing this?
alex_686
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by alex_686 »

quantAndHold wrote:It depends on what you want to do after graduation. Both of those lead to different careers.

Personally, I would choose economics. But shouldn't your kid be choosing this?
Maybe. As a 18 year old I thought that a accounting degree would lead to a CPA and a economics degree would lead to academia or governmental statically work. As an adult I know see more people in higher level positions with these degrees than Finance or Business Administration. There is a difference between what something looks like and what something does. As for choosing, yes it should be the child's choice. Hopefully a parent can provided guidance and wisdom so the kid's choice is a good one.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
Swansea
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Swansea »

Below is the employment outlook for both occupations. Since the two jobs have distinct skill sets, the one that interests you the most is the one to pick.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/home.htm
goldendad
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by goldendad »

Accounting. Get the CPA and [if you still want to] then get a Master's in Finance. My daughter is a CPA - very versatile career path.
Miakis
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Miakis »

quantAndHold wrote:It depends on what you want to do after graduation. Both of those lead to different careers.

Personally, I would choose economics. But shouldn't your kid be choosing this?
I would not choose Economics. I have my Bachelor's Degree in Economics and Masters in Accounting.

At many universities, the Economics program is classified as Liberal Arts and Sciences, instead of being in the Business School. But Business Schools tend to get more funding, and make a far more serious effort to support their students' employment. Even at the same university, the opportunities to access employers can be far diminished in an Economics program that resides outside of the Business School.

When I was interviewing for jobs with my Master's - the fact that my undergrad as in Economics seemed to delight employers. But I didn't have access to interviews with those employers straight out of my Economics degree. The career support simply didn't exist in the Econ program.

My tax professor, who had a PhD in Accounting, made $250,000 per year in the Business School. The top Economics professor made about $100,000.

I'd say that you can't go wrong with either a Finance or Accounting Degree. An Accounting undergrad can move you seamlessly into an MBA program and a Finance degree can move you seamlessly into a Masters of Accounting program and qualify you for the CPA exam (assuming you choose your accounting electives correctly).

So between the two - do whichever you like best. You can switch between the two without too much headache. And if you truly can't choose, it's not totally uncommon for accountants to meet the CPA exam requirements with a Finance/Accounting double major - skipping the Masters of Accounting.
MrKnight
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by MrKnight »

My thoughts:

Accounting in undergraduate, Finance in graduate school. At the undergraduate level, everything that a Finance major can do, the Accounting major can do. The reverse is not true.

I doubled majored in Accounting and Finance, am a licensed CPA, and am pursuing my MBA with a dual concentration in Accounting and Finance.

At the undergraduate level, Accounting programs are usually far more rigorous than the Finance programs.

At the graduate level, Finance can be more rigorous if it is quantitative finance or a CFA focused program, that would depend on the school, program, and classes you take.
davebo
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by davebo »

Accounting, no question about it. Seems that you have endless options available if you are a CPA, at least in my company.
afan
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by afan »

It depends a lot on what you want to do- although at this stage, the student may have no informed opinion.
I have been associated with several universities- all higher on the rank list than the OP describes. They are very different. One has a top business school for undergrads and offers majors in accounting, economics and finance. Another has a top business school, but no undergrad business major. Students with this orientation would major in economics. They could focus on finance or take courses in accounting, but could not get a degree in either. Another has a top business school, undergrad majors in economics and in finance, but not accounting. The fourth place has an executive MBA, but no business school and no undergraduate major in finance or accounting.

Many students from all four places end up in finance careers. Fewer, it seems, end up as CPAs, but it remains pretty common. The major differences: one place with an undergrad business school that it offers a full suite of specific accounting courses to undergrads. Overall, the place with a graduate business school but no undergrad business majors probably attracts the most interest from students. The place with a graduate business school and undergrad majors in economics and finance but not accounting probably comes in a very close second. The place with an undergrad business school and full suite of accounting major as well as economics and finance a close third and the place without a business school behind those three. But all launch lots of kids every year into business, finance, economics and somewhat less into accounting careers.

Many of the kids go to Wall Street with majors in economics or finance. Not sure how many of the accounting majors do this, but it may depend on how much they learned about finance, and how interested the firms are in the student. The programs at these 4 places range from fairly heavy on the quant side to crazy heavy on the quant side. So it may not be a representative sample.

Looking at the requirements, it would seem that one could do accounting while taking a number of finance courses, finance while taking accounting courses, or economics while taking courses in accounting and/or finance. Majoring in any of these is going to get you a lot more career opportunities than classics or art history. If the student has already chosen a college, then look at the options, career services, course work, ability to take courses outside the major, and try to figure which major best matches the interests and abilities.
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gclancer
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by gclancer »

MrKnight wrote:Accounting in undergraduate, Finance in graduate school. At the undergraduate level, everything that a Finance major can do, the Accounting major can do. The reverse is not true.
Another vote for accounting. I think MrKnight really hit the nail on the head here - accounting is a great undergraduate base to have for tons of different career paths.
fishmonger
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by fishmonger »

I would say do both (that's what I did 12 years ago). Many of the core classes will be the same for both majors. In my case, it was only an additional 12 credits or so to get a finance degree on top of my accounting degree.

Gives you a lot more options coming out of school. Will also give them a slight differentiator compared to the thousands of accounting grads coming out every spring interviewing with the Big 4, etc.
Last edited by fishmonger on Wed May 18, 2016 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jayjayc
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by jayjayc »

In terms of pure practicality, I'd say go for accounting and complete the hours to sit for the CPA exam. I've never heard of a CPA having trouble finding a good job. Also, an accountant can more easily transition to corporate finance or FP&A (financial planning & analysis).
mak1277
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by mak1277 »

I think you have to look at the specific school's programs also. I went to a top 15 ranked school but the accounting program was definitely not very good. There was no emphasis on getting quality professors and many of the upper level classes were taught by adjunct professors. On the other hand, there were multiple high quality professors in the finance department.

The nice thing is, the first year or even two for both majors will consist of the same core b-school classes. That gives you more time to decide on which major to pursue based on developing career interests.
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goru1
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by goru1 »

For accounting program, does it matter to have AACSB "Business and Accounting" accredited or OK to have only "Business" accredited?
BUBear29
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by BUBear29 »

goru1 wrote:Which is a better suggestion accounting ( CPA, Big 4, Corporate, Possible MBA ) or finance ( Possible CFA, Corporate, Possible MBA ) from national universities ranked 25 to 75 ?
I have a BBA in Finance and have a great job at a large bank. If I could go back I would major in accounting and get my CPA. Wouldn't change careers paths though.

Accounting is much more versatile and applicable in the market.
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potatoman
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by potatoman »

I'm a Fin/Acct double major and also did an MSA and have a CPA license.

My advice is to evaluate your strengths and interests and choose the major which suits you best. Which one would you rather dive into more deeply on your own time? If you can imagine yourself doing one or the other out of sheer interest, that's probably the route you should take. Both fields should both have solid job prospects but the jobs may be very different once you get out. Finance is probably more general at the undergrad level depending on the courses your school offers. Accounting will delve a little more deeply into the subject (assuming the undergrad acct program qualifies you to sit for the CPA exam). Take a hard look at what jobs/employers are available to you in your city and get a good idea of who is recruiting at your school.
Last edited by potatoman on Wed May 18, 2016 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SouthernCPA
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by SouthernCPA »

Accounting. Then get your CPA license and spend 3-5 years working for a big 4 firm. The opportunities really open up for you then. I didn't go big 4 because I wanted to be back in the area where I grew up, but if I were to do it over again, I probably would have gone and slogged it out a few years at a Big 4 firm just for the resume pedigree.

I actually did Accounting Undergrad and MBA. Only reason I did the MBA was to get me to the 150 hour requirement to sit for the CPA exam and it's been pretty useless for me other than CPA exam eligibility, but I also work in Public Accounting. I enjoy public accounting and plan on staying until I'm either a partner at my firm or hang my own shingle somewhere.
MrKnight
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by MrKnight »

mak1277 wrote:I think you have to look at the specific school's programs also. I went to a top 15 ranked school but the accounting program was definitely not very good. There was no emphasis on getting quality professors and many of the upper level classes were taught by adjunct professors. On the other hand, there were multiple high quality professors in the finance department.

The nice thing is, the first year or even two for both majors will consist of the same core b-school classes. That gives you more time to decide on which major to pursue based on developing career interests.
For some reason, I have found that business schools love to hire adjunt professors for the accounting program. I believe that thought is that they bring real world experience.

In my opinion and experience, what actually results is that these adjunct 'industry' professors tend to be far more disorganized with their lesson plans.
MrKnight
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by MrKnight »

goru1 wrote:For accounting program, does it matter to have AACSB "Business and Accounting" accredited or OK to have only "Business" accredited?
AACSB Business accreditation is good enough. The accounting specific accreditation is not something that is ever prioritized by anyone.
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patrick013
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by patrick013 »

The usual combo of BS - Accounting and MBA - Finance (or Economics)
has been the top degree for business school.

If you're in a big city a CPA for accounting firm work is fine. If you don't
like running out on audits or live in the suburbs a CMA is good for
corporate accounting and corporate planning. Not so much taxes and
auditing. I've always worked in corporate accounting with just an MBA.
I probably would have enjoyed a CMA more than a CPA but enough school
is enough I think.

For finance there's plenty of different licenses to get. Brokerage to running
a clearing firm. Not decided on a CFA or CMT (chartered market technician)
but many have the CFA fewer have the CMT. Once again, it depends on what
you enjoy and also how smart you are.
age in bonds, buy-and-hold, 10 year business cycle
fishmonger
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by fishmonger »

SouthernCPA wrote:Accounting. Then get your CPA license and spend 3-5 years working for a big 4 firm. The opportunities really open up for you then. I didn't go big 4 because I wanted to be back in the area where I grew up, but if I were to do it over again, I probably would have gone and slogged it out a few years at a Big 4 firm just for the resume pedigree.

I actually did Accounting Undergrad and MBA. Only reason I did the MBA was to get me to the 150 hour requirement to sit for the CPA exam and it's been pretty useless for me other than CPA exam eligibility, but I also work in Public Accounting. I enjoy public accounting and plan on staying until I'm either a partner at my firm or hang my own shingle somewhere.
+1. I went almost the same route, working at a decent sized regional firm (50+ employees). Without question I had a more well rounded experience working there for 3 years then I would have at the Big 4. But tons of quality corporate controller type jobs will specify "Big 4 experience required."

Real or imagined, it carries a certain cachet in the corporate world. It also helps if your kids end up living in different parts of the country/world, as it's universal compared to explaining your work at Joe Smith, CPA.
mak1277
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by mak1277 »

fishmonger wrote: +1. I went almost the same route, working at a decent sized regional firm (50+ employees). Without question I had a more well rounded experience working there for 3 years then I would have at the Big 4. But tons of quality corporate controller type jobs will specify "Big 4 experience required."

Real or imagined, it carries a certain cachet in the corporate world. It also helps if your kids end up living in different parts of the country/world, as it's universal compared to explaining your work at Joe Smith, CPA.
I'm curious about the bolded bit...what was more well-rounded for you?

I'm a Big 4 alum who always thought the whole "big 4 mystique" was a bunch of nonsense...until I started hiring people. There is no question that Big 4 alums are on average smarter and more well-trained than alums of regional firms. (Note - I said "on average"...obviously there are exceptions).
SouthernCPA
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by SouthernCPA »

mak1277 wrote:
fishmonger wrote: +1. I went almost the same route, working at a decent sized regional firm (50+ employees). Without question I had a more well rounded experience working there for 3 years then I would have at the Big 4. But tons of quality corporate controller type jobs will specify "Big 4 experience required."

Real or imagined, it carries a certain cachet in the corporate world. It also helps if your kids end up living in different parts of the country/world, as it's universal compared to explaining your work at Joe Smith, CPA.
I'm curious about the bolded bit...what was more well-rounded for you?

I'm a Big 4 alum who always thought the whole "big 4 mystique" was a bunch of nonsense...until I started hiring people. There is no question that Big 4 alums are on average smarter and more well-trained than alums of regional firms. (Note - I said "on average"...obviously there are exceptions).
I can't speak for Fish Monger, but I have worked with some Big 4 Alum (but I went regional) and while the Big 4 are very sharp in their area of expertise, I found that they got sort of pigeonholed in one area. This is just based on my observation, but for example, say while you were at the Big 4 for your 3-5 years if all you worked on was internal control audits for Banks, that's not very well rounded. No doubt, you've got that skillset and can learn other areas, but in my experience 3-5 years at a regional firm allows you to touch more areas of the profession. In my 5-6 years of regional experience, I've done Tax work for individuals, corporations, large (obviously not Big 4 sized "large") and small clients. In addition to tax, I've also been able to do financial statement audits, internal controls engagements, forensic work and work related to asset valuations. I believe this is what fish monger is trying to say.

Also, at a Regional firm, I've been pretty much involved in client relations and recruitment since day 1. We have some people in the office who don't leave their desk because they aren't client relation types, but I don't think this would happen as much at a Big 4, based on what Big 4 alum I have talked to have told me. From what I Understand, Big 4 people work in one area of one type of client and may not even get to touch all areas of one audit.

The downside of exposure to these various areas is the age old "jack of all trades, master of none." That said, I've enjoyed touching the various areas of the profession because I can now hone in on the area I want to practice in most of the time.
mak1277
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by mak1277 »

SouthernCPA wrote:
mak1277 wrote:
fishmonger wrote: +1. I went almost the same route, working at a decent sized regional firm (50+ employees). Without question I had a more well rounded experience working there for 3 years then I would have at the Big 4. But tons of quality corporate controller type jobs will specify "Big 4 experience required."

Real or imagined, it carries a certain cachet in the corporate world. It also helps if your kids end up living in different parts of the country/world, as it's universal compared to explaining your work at Joe Smith, CPA.
I'm curious about the bolded bit...what was more well-rounded for you?

I'm a Big 4 alum who always thought the whole "big 4 mystique" was a bunch of nonsense...until I started hiring people. There is no question that Big 4 alums are on average smarter and more well-trained than alums of regional firms. (Note - I said "on average"...obviously there are exceptions).
I can't speak for Fish Monger, but I have worked with some Big 4 Alum (but I went regional) and while the Big 4 are very sharp in their area of expertise, I found that they got sort of pigeonholed in one area. This is just based on my observation, but for example, say while you were at the Big 4 for your 3-5 years if all you worked on was internal control audits for Banks, that's not very well rounded. No doubt, you've got that skillset and can learn other areas, but in my experience 3-5 years at a regional firm allows you to touch more areas of the profession. In my 5-6 years of regional experience, I've done Tax work for individuals, corporations, large (obviously not Big 4 sized "large") and small clients. In addition to tax, I've also been able to do financial statement audits, internal controls engagements, forensic work and work related to asset valuations. I believe this is what fish monger is trying to say.

Also, at a Regional firm, I've been pretty much involved in client relations and recruitment since day 1. We have some people in the office who don't leave their desk because they aren't client relation types, but I don't think this would happen as much at a Big 4, based on what Big 4 alum I have talked to have told me. From what I Understand, Big 4 people work in one area of one type of client and may not even get to touch all areas of an entire audit, for instance.
This was not my experience at Big 4 at all. Granted, you won't get cross-functional experience between audit and tax, but aside from that, I can't imagine what more variety I could have gotten at a smaller firm. I had public and private clients, multiple industries and within my first three years was planning/executing audits from start to finish. Within 4-5 years I was making presentations in front of Audit Committees of Fortune 500 companies.

It really depends on what office/region you work in. If you're in the main NY office of a Big 4, sure, you might get pigeon holed. But any of the smaller offices (i.e., not NY) will allow for more cross-pollination across industries and client types.
SouthernCPA
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by SouthernCPA »

mak1277 wrote:
This was not my experience at Big 4 at all. Granted, you won't get cross-functional experience between audit and tax, but aside from that, I can't imagine what more variety I could have gotten at a smaller firm. I had public and private clients, multiple industries and within my first three years was planning/executing audits from start to finish. Within 4-5 years I was making presentations in front of Audit Committees of Fortune 500 companies.

It really depends on what office/region you work in. If you're in the main NY office of a Big 4, sure, you might get pigeon holed. But any of the smaller offices (i.e., not NY) will allow for more cross-pollination across industries and client types.
Interesting. I do, to some extent, regret not going Big 4. I didn't even entertain the idea out of college, but I see the value now. My career has been fine thus far, but I do recognize the pedigree that comes with Big 4 experience. I believe that 5 years of Big 4 is equivalent to 10 years of regional experience just based on the volume of work you've got to do at a Big 4 and the pressure. I don't think I could go and do the hours now. I'm too involved in my community and detest work travel and late nights at the office too much at this point.

I'd be completely happy owning a small tax practice in my little town where I may not make as much, but I have enough time off in the non-busy season to take the family on trips, go fishing and enjoy our little gulf coast lifestyle. I'm one of the weird ones though, I think, as this is my ultimate career goal.
Miakis
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Miakis »

SouthernCPA wrote: I'd be completely happy owning a small tax practice in my little town where I may not make as much, but I have enough time off in the non-busy season to take the family on trips, go fishing and enjoy our little gulf coast lifestyle. I'm one of the weird ones though, I think, as this is my ultimate career goal.
Becoming a self-employed tax practitioner was always my goal when becoming a CPA. As such, I chose not to go Big 4 and went to a small office for national not-Big-4 firm. I ended up doing both tax and audit for small private clients.

I could not have gotten the exposure to smaller individual clients in Big 4, and I would not have been able to get the simultaneous tax and audit experience at Big 4. Granted, at the time, audit experience was not attractive to me! But it has been invaluable in my practice, because I had the opportunity to see how private, small-but-successful businesses are run. I don't perform audits now, but I field a lot of general business consulting questions that I'm able to answer because of my audit experience.

Overall, my Big 4 offers for SALT and International Tax wouldn't have gotten me to the beauty of my own version of gulf coast living as easily as my experience at a slacker office of a "Top 10" did.
mak1277
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by mak1277 »

SouthernCPA wrote:
I'd be completely happy owning a small tax practice in my little town where I may not make as much, but I have enough time off in the non-busy season to take the family on trips, go fishing and enjoy our little gulf coast lifestyle. I'm one of the weird ones though, I think, as this is my ultimate career goal.
Despite my earlier defense of Big 4, I actually agree completely with what you wrote above. When I came out of college, I had no desire to do tax at all. If I could go back in time, though, working in the tax practice (big 4 or not) and then starting my own small firm would be a great option.
fishmonger
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by fishmonger »

SouthernCPA wrote:
mak1277 wrote:
fishmonger wrote: +1. I went almost the same route, working at a decent sized regional firm (50+ employees). Without question I had a more well rounded experience working there for 3 years then I would have at the Big 4. But tons of quality corporate controller type jobs will specify "Big 4 experience required."

Real or imagined, it carries a certain cachet in the corporate world. It also helps if your kids end up living in different parts of the country/world, as it's universal compared to explaining your work at Joe Smith, CPA.
I'm curious about the bolded bit...what was more well-rounded for you?

I'm a Big 4 alum who always thought the whole "big 4 mystique" was a bunch of nonsense...until I started hiring people. There is no question that Big 4 alums are on average smarter and more well-trained than alums of regional firms. (Note - I said "on average"...obviously there are exceptions).
I can't speak for Fish Monger, but I have worked with some Big 4 Alum (but I went regional) and while the Big 4 are very sharp in their area of expertise, I found that they got sort of pigeonholed in one area. This is just based on my observation, but for example, say while you were at the Big 4 for your 3-5 years if all you worked on was internal control audits for Banks, that's not very well rounded. No doubt, you've got that skillset and can learn other areas, but in my experience 3-5 years at a regional firm allows you to touch more areas of the profession. In my 5-6 years of regional experience, I've done Tax work for individuals, corporations, large (obviously not Big 4 sized "large") and small clients. In addition to tax, I've also been able to do financial statement audits, internal controls engagements, forensic work and work related to asset valuations. I believe this is what fish monger is trying to say.

Also, at a Regional firm, I've been pretty much involved in client relations and recruitment since day 1. We have some people in the office who don't leave their desk because they aren't client relation types, but I don't think this would happen as much at a Big 4, based on what Big 4 alum I have talked to have told me. From what I Understand, Big 4 people work in one area of one type of client and may not even get to touch all areas of one audit.

The downside of exposure to these various areas is the age old "jack of all trades, master of none." That said, I've enjoyed touching the various areas of the profession because I can now hone in on the area I want to practice in most of the time.
SouthernCPA basically nailed what I was trying to say. It was not meant as a slight to Big 4 alums. Within the first year of working at a regional firm, I was getting face time with clients and exercising professional judgment on a daily basis. In year 2 I was doing business development. In my experience, where probably 75% of my classmates went Big 4 in either Boston or NYC, they got pigeonholed into not only certain audit areas, but certain industries. This is great if you want to be a VP of Finance in banking, but tough if you want to branch out or work in a different industry. The positives to me are the work ethic that is inherent in working for the Big 4. There just aren't a lot of people willing to invest that much time into their career, regardless of profession.

In my own experience managing a 5 person firm in NH that does a "bit of everything", we've had 2 Big 4 people flame out. One had only worked in real estate and had never audited inventory, receivables, etc. The other one had trouble doing very basic accounting work - posting journal entries, etc. It's obviously anecdotal, as some (maybe most) of the smartest people in the profession work at the Big 4, but that has been my experience.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Accounting - CPA track level, after you become licensed, start studying for the CFA Level 1 exam and you will realize the true value of all those accounting courses you took in years 1 and 2 of college. :wink:
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Valuethinker
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Valuethinker »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Accounting - CPA track level, after you become licensed, start studying for the CFA Level 1 exam and you will realize the true value of all those accounting courses you took in years 1 and 2 of college. :wink:
+1 with a minor in economics or finance if interested (or in history etc. if that's interesting). It's going to provide both the most career opportunities and the most useful skills post undergrad.

From there a move into finance via MS in Finance or CFA is perfectly possible.

The thing about straight economics majors if you are say a top 10 university or top 10 private college then you can interview for Analyst programs at the investment banks, maybe also at the consulting firms. Outside of that top 20-25 places it starts to be really difficult to get a look in.

But they are incredibly competitive, even for the Harvard grad, let alone the Penn or Cornell grad. (Harvard Stanford Yale Princeton are in something of a breed of their own on this, but there are of course slots for MIT Brown Columbia NYU etc., as well as healthy chances (against fierce competition) from schools like UVA and Penn (ie their undergrad business programs)).

Undergrad economics, unless Economics and Math or Econ and Applied Math, etc, doesn't really prepare you for Econ grad school. The direction of Phds in Economics these days is still heavily math oriented (to get through the Phd comps) but also very empirical, a lot of emphasis on data collection and stats analysis-- Freakonomics is kind of a good example of what the majority of Phds in econ seem to be aiming at (find a new and unusual data set and torture it into confessing ;-)).
Valuethinker
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Valuethinker »

SouthernCPA wrote:
mak1277 wrote:
This was not my experience at Big 4 at all. Granted, you won't get cross-functional experience between audit and tax, but aside from that, I can't imagine what more variety I could have gotten at a smaller firm. I had public and private clients, multiple industries and within my first three years was planning/executing audits from start to finish. Within 4-5 years I was making presentations in front of Audit Committees of Fortune 500 companies.

It really depends on what office/region you work in. If you're in the main NY office of a Big 4, sure, you might get pigeon holed. But any of the smaller offices (i.e., not NY) will allow for more cross-pollination across industries and client types.
Interesting. I do, to some extent, regret not going Big 4. I didn't even entertain the idea out of college, but I see the value now. My career has been fine thus far, but I do recognize the pedigree that comes with Big 4 experience. I believe that 5 years of Big 4 is equivalent to 10 years of regional experience just based on the volume of work you've got to do at a Big 4 and the pressure. I don't think I could go and do the hours now. I'm too involved in my community and detest work travel and late nights at the office too much at this point.

I'd be completely happy owning a small tax practice in my little town where I may not make as much, but I have enough time off in the non-busy season to take the family on trips, go fishing and enjoy our little gulf coast lifestyle. I'm one of the weird ones though, I think, as this is my ultimate career goal.
The thing with Big 4 is that the recruiters and headhunters look for it on the CV.

So with Big 4 you can always "downshift" into say a small family owned company, etc. But with blue chip recruiters (in other industries) they look for Big 4. Ditto people like Hedge Funds or PE firms.

I entirely agree that Big 4 doesn't always give you the best experience-- you can be a cog in a very big machine. If you work in NYC and only audit financial services clients that's going to limit you-- and it won't necessarily be only FS clients, it will be *only* Asset Managers or Investment Banks or Dealer Brokers or PE Funds etc. ie very vertically siloed.
Valuethinker
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Valuethinker »

MrKnight wrote:
mak1277 wrote:I think you have to look at the specific school's programs also. I went to a top 15 ranked school but the accounting program was definitely not very good. There was no emphasis on getting quality professors and many of the upper level classes were taught by adjunct professors. On the other hand, there were multiple high quality professors in the finance department.

The nice thing is, the first year or even two for both majors will consist of the same core b-school classes. That gives you more time to decide on which major to pursue based on developing career interests.
For some reason, I have found that business schools love to hire adjunt professors for the accounting program. I believe that thought is that they bring real world experience.

In my opinion and experience, what actually results is that these adjunct 'industry' professors tend to be far more disorganized with their lesson plans.
I am going back 3+ decades but ours were pretty well organized and the learning did have that real world aspect. The problem is that the fixed points of an academic teaching schedule don't work with a business career with clients needing you etc.

They may lack coordination with other courses, that is certainly true (because they are not around campus much).

In academia, research accounting professors (ie who will publish in peer reviewed journals) are an expensive beast-- paid more than any other business school faculty IME (and starting profs in Accounting are paid more than people with 20 years experience). So the departments need relatively cheap teaching staff particularly for the undergrads and they source adjuncts to do that from industry.

Business schools can source their Finance profs from economics Phds (who directed their thesis towards finance) but accounting profs are a rare drug-- almost all of ours were from non North American backgrounds (Indians and Israelis and East Asian nationals in particular). This may have changed, but it was still true 10 years ago, at least.
mak1277
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by mak1277 »

Valuethinker wrote:
MrKnight wrote:
mak1277 wrote:I think you have to look at the specific school's programs also. I went to a top 15 ranked school but the accounting program was definitely not very good. There was no emphasis on getting quality professors and many of the upper level classes were taught by adjunct professors. On the other hand, there were multiple high quality professors in the finance department.

The nice thing is, the first year or even two for both majors will consist of the same core b-school classes. That gives you more time to decide on which major to pursue based on developing career interests.
For some reason, I have found that business schools love to hire adjunt professors for the accounting program. I believe that thought is that they bring real world experience.

In my opinion and experience, what actually results is that these adjunct 'industry' professors tend to be far more disorganized with their lesson plans.
I am going back 3+ decades but ours were pretty well organized and the learning did have that real world aspect. The problem is that the fixed points of an academic teaching schedule don't work with a business career with clients needing you etc.

They may lack coordination with other courses, that is certainly true (because they are not around campus much).

In academia, research accounting professors (ie who will publish in peer reviewed journals) are an expensive beast-- paid more than any other business school faculty IME (and starting profs in Accounting are paid more than people with 20 years experience). So the departments need relatively cheap teaching staff particularly for the undergrads and they source adjuncts to do that from industry.

Business schools can source their Finance profs from economics Phds (who directed their thesis towards finance) but accounting profs are a rare drug-- almost all of ours were from non North American backgrounds (Indians and Israelis and East Asian nationals in particular). This may have changed, but it was still true 10 years ago, at least.
There are lots of reasons behind this, my point really was that saying "top 25-75 university" overall doesn't mean anything in terms of how good the accounting program is or isn't. My wife, for example, went to a school that was ranked overall MUCH lower than where I went, but had a top 5 accounting program.
Valuethinker
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Valuethinker »

mak1277 wrote:
There are lots of reasons behind this, my point really was that saying "top 25-75 university" overall doesn't mean anything in terms of how good the accounting program is or isn't. My wife, for example, went to a school that was ranked overall MUCH lower than where I went, but had a top 5 accounting program.
That's very true. It's really when others are reading the CV, the name recognized university matters.
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patrick013
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by patrick013 »

I always thought the audit manager wrote the audit program
and the staff auditor performed the audit. So, if one auditor
was talented in one sector but not the other it wouldn't matter
so much.

Same thing in corporate accounting. One works as A/R manager,
A/P manager, Fixed Asset Manager, Mortgage Ledger Manager,
or whatever...it's the one that handles the Balance Sheet that
really gets the wider experience.

I've always liked schools that had 2 courses in Intermediate and 2
courses in Advanced Accounting Theory. Recently one of my favorite
schools cut back and teaches only one course in Advanced Accounting
Theory and another course for Accounting Methodology which covers
research and disclosure issues. Huh ? Apparently to fit coursework
into CPA requirements within a 4 year period. Well I'd rather have 2
courses in advanced theory anyway. Already know what it's like otherwise.
age in bonds, buy-and-hold, 10 year business cycle
mayday23
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by mayday23 »

Agree with the others who say Accounting undergrad, MBA in Finance. I'm an IT guy, but my general observations are that leaders (CEO, CFO, COO) go to the finance guys to help with projections and growing the business and go to the accounting guys to see how we did. You need to understand how we did first and the impact to accounting, then move to the finance side to understand the levers that drive the business.
Retired1809
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by Retired1809 »

Accounting or Finance? My answer would include the question of where your interests lie. And I'll point you to a great way to help you assess where your interests lie by suggesting that you go to your guidance counselor and take the Kuder Preference test or whatever interest test they offer. The "test" finds out about you by asking you a battery of questions (would your rather do "this" or "that," and then lists careers/professions that statistically appear to be good "matches" for you based on your responses to the test. (There are no "right" or "wrong" answers; the questions are designed to learn more about YOU.)

My undergrad degree was Accounting, my MBA was in Finance and Investments and I am a CPA. Throughout my career I've used skill sets from both accounting and finance as well as imagination that I developed outside the classroom. There are many routes to success but they all have one thing in common: hard work and self-discipline. And remember that "luck" seems to find those who work hardest (and smartest). I'm 71 and self-employed. I could afford to retire 15 years ago, but haven't found anything I like more than going to my office (almost) every day.

If you hate your work, you can't retire early enough; if you love your work, you never want to retire.

Good luck to you. Find your bliss.
retired recently
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Re: Major - Accounting or Finance

Post by retired recently »

I worked for two of the Big 4 firms and during my career worked in both small and large offices. I liked the smaller offices better as you did get a variety of clients, assignments. Other than possibly some of the large consulting firms, I do not know anywhere else where such young inexperienced graduates get exposure to high-level personnel and also see the inner workings of companies...the Big 4 have to be the best place to start (and potentially finish) a career.

If you can make it to manager with a Big 4 firm I think that should be a goal for most, after manager it is probably time to determine if you are interested in becoming partner or not...
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