Postnuptial agreement for Physician

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kaizen
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Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by kaizen » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:59 am

Hi,

My wife and I recently got married and joined our finances. We currently don't have any significant assets (she has about 30K in student loan debt, and 25K in her retirement account; while I have 16K in car debt, no student loans). I am a physician and she is a nurse. I am still in training, and will become an attending next year when I will see my salary increase by approx 6x. I have a clear idea of what I want for my life and I want to achieve financial independence very early in my career (10 years of working full time) to pursue other interests and travel. I will aggressively save most of my salary in order to do that. My wife likes the idea of FI and traveling, but I occasionally have the feeling she will be content in spending her salary as she pleases, with no significant concerns in savings while I do the "dirty work". She is also content with taking one 2 week vacation per year and continuing to work as she currently does. She is very independent and is completely able to take care of herself without needing my help.
The first point is one that I already know - I should've had this conversation about finances and future plans more extensively before getting married, but you know. Can't go back into the past now. We are deeply in love and I have no plans of divorcing her - our marriage has been doing great.
However I worry about the future and of being part of the statistics with the high divorce rate.
I don't feel it is fair for me to work hard for 10 years to be able to be financially independent, but if something goes wrong and we don't make it as a couple, I would have to hand over to her half of my hard work, only to add another 10 years to my full time working career.
I have been reading about postnuptial agreements.
I would like suggestions on the following topics:
1. how to bring this conversation up with her?
2. If we proceed with it, how should we write up the agreement, in a way that is fair to both us us? For example, properties that we buy and pay together will belong to both of us, but retirement accounts, taxable accounts, will be separated completely in the event of a divorce?

Any suggestions?

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midareff
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by midareff » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:16 am

kaizen wrote: 1. how to bring this conversation up with her?
2. If we proceed with it, how should we write up the agreement, in a way that is fair to both us us? For example, properties that we buy and pay together will belong to both of us, but retirement accounts, taxable accounts, will be separated completely in the event of a divorce?

Any suggestions?
1. Very carefully... and certainly not in a framework of it is going to be in a written agreement. Perhaps a real casual pillow talk conversation some late night as a starter and see how that goes before considering anything more nuts and bolts.

2. I don't see anyone holding a lesser paying position (nurse vs. doctor) agreeing to let you keep separate retirement monies and leave with that if it doesn't work out. Sounds like all of it is 50/50 community property now. Not trying to beat a dead horse but you are way late here to what could be a deal breaker.

.......... and what happens if you have a family? Perhaps in the two or three kids range. How does this apply then? "I don't feel it is fair for me to work hard for 10 years to be able to be financially independent, but if something goes wrong and we don't make it as a couple, I would have to hand over to her half of my hard work, only to add another 10 years to my full time working career."

I suggest you better rethink your entire line of reasoning. If handing over half in a divorce is a problem what are you going to do when the judge says give it all to her since you can make it back, and let's add in XYZ for monthly alimony and ZCX for child support for the next 14 years or so?

Edit note: If you really feel that way, .. about being able to leave with your money, I would suggest you get divorced immediately and not waste any more of her time. If you are going to share a life together than you share it, if not go your own way.
Last edited by midareff on Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

letsgobobby
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by letsgobobby » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:23 am

Your post comes across as anxious, uncompromising, narcissistic, and controlling. I know you married a nurse (your nurse?), but she is not going to want to take your orders away from the hospital.

This is such a bad start to a marriage.

Beth*
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Beth* » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:44 am

If I were your wife and I knew you were thinking this way I would divorce you now. She may feel differently, but that's how I'd feel. I certainly would never want to have children with someone who sees our incomes as two separate pots and thinks he deserves to keep everything he earns. I think you need to consider that she may feel like I do before you start this conversation with her.

I don't understand why someone would go to medical school and only want to work as a doctor for 10 years. We have a shortage of physicians in this country and a limited number of spaces in medical schools. I realize it is too late for you, but I would like to think that the people who apply for and get those spots genuinely want to be doctors and will practice medicine for decades.
Last edited by Beth* on Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

GoldenFinch
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by GoldenFinch » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:58 am

Big red flags in your post. Think long and hard about what you are proposing before you talk to your wife. Think about what she will feel when you tell her your thoughts. Think about whether you want to forge ahead as a unit or separately and what all the potential outcomes might be. For many marriages a conversation like this would be a turning point.

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unclescrooge
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by unclescrooge » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:05 am

After ten years of med school and residency, and another ten years of working hard to achieve FI, you may find you have cultivated no other interests outside of work, and have no other friends except other doctors.

Life is lived in the present. Don't make your life miserable (and that of your wife) chasing some fantasy.

Maybe an alternative could be you work hard for five years to catch up to where you are now comfortable and can scale back a little bit to take up other hobbies.

UADM
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by UADM » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:08 am

Marriage is strictly a financial contract. You could choose to live together forever without giving half of everything you own to someone as compensation for divorce. Why didn't you just go down this route? You could divorce and just stay together forever or you could just be honest. If your relationship is strong, then you will be able to talk about things openly.

The idea that someone should have to give money to end a relationship is very bad. It can even act as an incentive to divorce.

Most people respond in a purely emotional one, as a way to justify their own choices. This doesn't have to do with them and their insecurities. From an emotionless perspective, you have to decide if you are willing to risk half of all of your earnings and savings. If, at any point, she changes, you will lose half. If that is an ok risk to you, then keep things the same. If not, you are going to have to do something, and fast. A relationship can be lifelong without gifting them half of your money if they decide, for any reason, to leave. This includes adultery, which has no effect on divorce proceedings in the US.

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White Coat Investor
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by White Coat Investor » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:08 am

kaizen wrote:Hi,

My wife and I recently got married and joined our finances. We currently don't have any significant assets (she has about 30K in student loan debt, and 25K in her retirement account; while I have 16K in car debt, no student loans). I am a physician and she is a nurse. I am still in training, and will become an attending next year when I will see my salary increase by approx 6x. I have a clear idea of what I want for my life and I want to achieve financial independence very early in my career (10 years of working full time) to pursue other interests and travel. I will aggressively save most of my salary in order to do that. My wife likes the idea of FI and traveling, but I occasionally have the feeling she will be content in spending her salary as she pleases, with no significant concerns in savings while I do the "dirty work". She is also content with taking one 2 week vacation per year and continuing to work as she currently does. She is very independent and is completely able to take care of herself without needing my help.
The first point is one that I already know - I should've had this conversation about finances and future plans more extensively before getting married, but you know. Can't go back into the past now. We are deeply in love and I have no plans of divorcing her - our marriage has been doing great.
However I worry about the future and of being part of the statistics with the high divorce rate.
I don't feel it is fair for me to work hard for 10 years to be able to be financially independent, but if something goes wrong and we don't make it as a couple, I would have to hand over to her half of my hard work, only to add another 10 years to my full time working career.
I have been reading about postnuptial agreements.
I would like suggestions on the following topics:
1. how to bring this conversation up with her?
2. If we proceed with it, how should we write up the agreement, in a way that is fair to both us us? For example, properties that we buy and pay together will belong to both of us, but retirement accounts, taxable accounts, will be separated completely in the event of a divorce?

Any suggestions?
If you want the marriage to last long-term, forget I and start using we. The money you make is hers. The money she makes is yours. The money you have is hers. The money she has is yours. If you both compromise your marriage will work. If either doesn't, it won't last.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

jridger2011
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by jridger2011 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:20 am

Since you both make money, I find this train of thought strange. You both have jobs that won't cause you to not retire early even if you spend some instead of working aggressively and saving. You're in love and have enough to live on, why would you think about divorce? This is a really good time in your life where there is money coming in and you've got each other. Are you thinking that you won't work as hard on your marriage as your career?

Runner01
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Runner01 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:57 am

As others have recommended, divorce and co-habitation are probably the best course of action to ensure that you can keep your assets separate.

Just some things to think about though:
If your wife were to become ill and couldn't work, would you resent her for delaying your financial independence?

If you were to have a child and that child required you or your wife to provide care 24/7, would you resent your child for delaying your financial independence?

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goingup
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by goingup » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:06 am

letsgobobby wrote:Your post comes across as anxious, uncompromising, narcissistic, and controlling. I know you married a nurse (your nurse?), but she is not going to want to take your orders away from the hospital.

This is such a bad start to a marriage.
Yup. OP, you are eying your big pay day and deciding your wife is going to thwart your dreams and steal your money. Why don't you share this news with her sooner than later so she can move on.

Lafder
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Lafder » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:23 am

You are now bound by the laws of marriage, which is a financial and legal contract. (In addition to all of the other aspects of marriage)

Who ever knows if marriage will last ? I have been with my partner 25 years, married more than half of those. But I won't know if we stayed together until the end looking back.

By definition, you can not make a "prenup" post nuptials.

Instead of worrying what if we break up, talk about and plan for a life together. If that doesn't work out there will be time to sort it out in the future.

I hope you are correct that you can work hard for ten years then retire. If that is what you want it could be great. If you keep your expenses low it may be possible. I have not actually met any physician who retired on their earnings after 10 years of work, unless they also had inheritance.

Regarding this "For example, properties that we buy and pay together will belong to both of us, but retirement accounts, taxable accounts, will be separated completely in the event of a divorce? " It will most likely all be divided equally in divorce, and don't forget the higher earning spouse often ends up paying some years of alimony as well.

If you were my husband and approached me with this offer, I would be devastated that you do not feel we are in this together, and you are predicting our marriage will not last.

She can not help if she earns less at her job. She has put in years of training and works hard too. If I were your wife, I would not agree to such a financial division after marriage since it is absolutely not to my advantage. What if we have 10 years of wonderful marriage and then you decide to leave me for a younger replacement and by your post nup you are entitled to 90% of our joint assets? No thanks.

Go do something nice for your wife and work on your relationship so there is no reason for her to want to leave you!

And good luck to you if you make your proposal.

The only thing that I would think is reasonable regarding an unfair division of assets would be if either of you inherit, to keep such inheritance titled separately, and not have it become joint property.

lafder

psychoslowmatic
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by psychoslowmatic » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:32 am

1) I can't think of a way to bring this up that wouldn't be deeply offensive to your wife.

2) as others have mentioned you don't seem to regard your wife as your partner. Maybe that's your fear talking and not how your life is.

3) I think the biggest issue revealed is that you haven't had a long conversation with your wife about your joint finances and financial goals. That could easily cause a divorce, so I would start having that conversation. Does she see you both quitting to do volunteer work after 50? Does she want a boat? Do you want a boat? How important is travel? How much does she dislike debt? Does she want to own a big house or not? It's part of a longer conversation about life goals that you really should've had before now, but better late than never.

Allixi
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Allixi » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:45 am

If being FIRE was more important to you than being married to your now-wife, then you guys shouldn't have gotten married.

Stress to your wife about how important your goal is to you and try to get more on the same page financially. Find out more of her financial goals (if they exist concretely) and how you can accommodate them. But no good can come of talking about a "post-nuptial agreement", unless you count getting divorced now before you've accumulated significant assets.

123
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by 123 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:46 am

I have to agree with other posters that divorce and co-habitation (probably with someone other then your current wife) is probably the best option for you.

You are currently in an extraordinary career and financial position. You are a physician and you have no student loan debt. Is the absence of student loan debt due to scholarship or did someone else cover those expenses?
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.

Ron Ronnerson
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:25 am

I think you're using incorrect pronouns in most of your post. You no longer are as one but instead have two halves now. Try to think of her like the left (or right) half of your body. How does thinking about it this way make you feel? That could be revealing.

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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by friar1610 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:27 am

Runner01 wrote:
Just some things to think about though:
If your wife were to become ill and couldn't work, would you resent her for delaying your financial independence?

If you were to have a child and that child required you or your wife to provide care 24/7, would you resent your child for delaying your financial independence?
Alternatively, if you became disabled (God forbid) and couldn't work in a high-paying profession (or couldn't work at all) what would be your expectation of how she would support you? Would you have expectations about her obligations to you that you wouldn't be willing to accept yourself if she had the misfortune? Just some food for thought.
Friar1610

ktd
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by ktd » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:34 am

Just talk to her. I would have no problem with it if my dh wants a postnuptial agreement. My dh makes way more than me btw. I understand why he wants it since more than 50% of marriages end in divorce.

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HueyLD
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by HueyLD » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:39 am

Ktd, You may not have a problem with a post-nuptial agreement, but let me guess - most women who are already married may have problems with it.

It is a distinct possibility that the wife may want to cut her loss early if this subject comes up.

blueman457
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by blueman457 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:43 am

I don't completely understand the backlash from the question, although I think the phrasing of

"I don't feel it is fair for me to work hard for 10 years to be able to be financially independent, but if something goes wrong and we don't make it as a couple, I would have to hand over to her half of my hard work, only to add another 10 years to my full time working career."

is a bit negative as she has supported you through your training, may have your children, and may do a lot of unpaid work as a mother/wife.

Focusing on the question at hand:

1. Bringing up the question - no idea.
2. Proceeding forward: what is "fair" is a serious question. Are you basing this off the amount of earned income? What about work around the house? What about raising kids? Those are questions that you should consider. If you're maxing out both sets of retirement accounts, and splitting taxable accounts equally then you're 50/50 then.

Ervin
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Ervin » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:50 am

Look up the states that are the most friendly towards husbands during a divorce. Find a pretext to move to one of those. Never bring up the subject with your wife. What's done is done.

I have the strange feeling that you rushed into this marriage, and now you are waking up about the kind of person you married. If you would not marry her again with what you know today, the solution is to divorce asap and find a more fitting partner.

I would give mine almost all my belongings, if I ever hurt her enough to prompt a divorce. I find it ridiculous that people marry spouses they would not bet on in the long term. I personally would never sign any kind of nuptial agreement.
Last edited by Ervin on Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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boglebill2015
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by boglebill2015 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:52 am

Kaizen



Clearest way to put it is, you have not (mentally) and do not want to combine your finances going forward. Doesnt seem that unreasonable when you say it that way, but the law doenst work that way, and most spouses minds dont either. Some spouses would be ok with it tho, maybe yours is one of them.

She might also say, "man, I married the wrong doctor".



.

boglebill2015
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by boglebill2015 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:55 am

Ervin wrote:Look up the states that are the most friendly towards husbands during a divorce. Find a pretext to move to one of those. Never bring up the subject with your wife. What's done is done.

Heh, is this to be funny or serious advice? I laughed, so I assume you are joking

Ervin
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Ervin » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:59 am

boglebill2015 wrote:
Ervin wrote:Look up the states that are the most friendly towards husbands during a divorce. Find a pretext to move to one of those. Never bring up the subject with your wife. What's done is done.

Heh, is this to be funny or serious advice? I laughed, so I assume you are joking
I was not. That is the main solution for people with predatory spouses. If you want scary stories, look up Phil Greenspun's blog.

Generally, I find it's a bad idea when people with different earnings levels and wealth get married. It takes a lot of love and harmony for the poorer not to take advantage of the richer one, or for the richer not to feel exploited.
Last edited by Ervin on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RIP, Mr. Bogle.

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Kenkat
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Kenkat » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:07 pm

You are right, it probably wouldn't be fair if you saved and saved and saved and got blindsided by a divorce at just the worst possible time for your goals in life. I have learned over time that life is not always fair. But being in a marriage requires a huge leap of faith with the one you love that somehow things will work out. You may have a plan for life, but I can tell you that life and marriage will have its own plan that may or may not match yours. While the divorce rate is high, the stay married rate is high too. My wife's parents were married for 64 years until my father in law recently passed away. My own parents are approaching 60 and I have 25 in so far. I live in a neighborhood of 19 families, and while there are a couple of single people and a couple of remarriages, no one has gotten divorced in the 18 years we have lived here. A lot of people make it.

It sounds like you and your wife are doing great. I would talk to her about your goals and see what she thinks. She may be fully supportive or you may compromise a bit on some combination that works for you as a couple. I would not try to lock her into some legal agreement that is based on a future that is at least somewhat if not mostly out of your control. You just may do irreparable harm to your relationship, a relationship that is going pretty good it sounds like to me. You sound like you would like the comfort of an escape clause but that's just not something that is fair to ask for in a committed relationship. Jump in completely and make it the best that you can and let the fates fall as they may.

VoiceOfReason
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by VoiceOfReason » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:13 pm

You don't work hard just for yourself and provide a lifestyle for yourself, you work hard for your family.

the better approach here is to have a positive conversation about budgets, spending, and lifestyle. Align your goals and expectations as a couple.

I'd actually recommend a therapist to mediate this conversation because it appears there might be a lot of baggage here.

Globalviewer58
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Globalviewer58 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:19 pm

OP, your screen name, kaizen, would be a good place to take your thoughts. Imagine the improvements in your life working with your marriage partner for the best outcome for all. Each of you have attributes to make the life journey better as a couple rather than individuals. Team work implies a focus on the same goals. Why not suggest a financial budgeting discussion to lay out a vision of your mutual financial future. Let your wife contribute her thoughts on the matter. Where are the mutually agreeable thoughts? Where are there opportunities for improvement? Are we interested in getting to the same place?

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David Jay
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by David Jay » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:23 pm

kaizen wrote:I have been reading about postnuptial agreements.... Any suggestions?
Stop reading!

Seriously, you are on treacherous ground. Your marriage will not survive if you continue to follow this path.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

boglebill2015
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by boglebill2015 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:39 pm

Ervin wrote:
boglebill2015 wrote:
Ervin wrote:Look up the states that are the most friendly towards husbands during a divorce. Find a pretext to move to one of those. Never bring up the subject with your wife. What's done is done.

Heh, is this to be funny or serious advice? I laughed, so I assume you are joking
I was not. That is the main solution for people with predatory spouses. If you want scary stories, look up Phil Greenspun's blog.

Generally, I find it's a bad idea when people with different earnings levels and wealth get married. It takes a lot of love and harmony for the poorer not to take advantage of the richer one, or for the richer not to feel exploited.
I dont think his wife is predatory, he doesnt assert that.

You think only financial equals should marry. Every marriage where one spouse stays home with kids would fit your different earnings level criteria as a bad idea.

Well, I thought your first post was funny, regardless of intent.

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Christine_NM
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Christine_NM » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:51 pm

I wanted to write something positive, but sorry, most of it sounds negative. The takeaway is you have a brand new marriage and can't evaluate what it will be worth to you yet. Work on honest communication in all areas before you tackle the postnup talk. Maybe by then you will decide it is not necessary.

My idea of an acceptable deal would be, when you are able, pay off her student loan debt and she will put the monthly (or whatever period it is) payment amount toward retirement savings. This would not really be fair to her since her income is lower but maybe it would make you feel better if she saved more even though the amount is insignificant to your ultimate net worth.

Face it, you are not financial equals. You can't get a fair agreement where you owe nothing to a spouse who doesn't make much now and is likely to make less in the future because she is busy raising your children and being there for them when you are not -- because you will be working extra hours to retire early.

You probably should not have gotten married yet but I'm not going to recommend divorce because your attitude toward marriage may improve as your personal comfort level improves over the next few years. Her identity to you will be "wife and mother of kids" rather than "independent" and "nurse".
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Ervin
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Ervin » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:51 pm

boglebill2015 wrote:
Ervin wrote:
boglebill2015 wrote:
Ervin wrote:Look up the states that are the most friendly towards husbands during a divorce. Find a pretext to move to one of those. Never bring up the subject with your wife. What's done is done.

Heh, is this to be funny or serious advice? I laughed, so I assume you are joking
I was not. That is the main solution for people with predatory spouses. If you want scary stories, look up Phil Greenspun's blog.

Generally, I find it's a bad idea when people with different earnings levels and wealth get married. It takes a lot of love and harmony for the poorer not to take advantage of the richer one, or for the richer not to feel exploited.
I dont think his wife is predatory, he doesnt assert that.

You think only financial equals should marry. Every marriage where one spouse stays home with kids would fit your different earnings level criteria as a bad idea.

Well, I thought your first post was funny, regardless of intent.
Why do you think the divorce rate is so high in this country? Why do people get "midlife crises"? Do you think those many stay-at-home spouses have nothing to do with it? I am not minimizing their role, just explaining why many financially unbalanced arrangements don't lead to long term happiness, even if people stay together for their children's sake,
Last edited by Ervin on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
RIP, Mr. Bogle.

TomCat96
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by TomCat96 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:53 pm

kaizen wrote:Hi,

My wife and I recently got married and joined our finances. We currently don't have any significant assets (she has about 30K in student loan debt, and 25K in her retirement account; while I have 16K in car debt, no student loans). I am a physician and she is a nurse. I am still in training, and will become an attending next year when I will see my salary increase by approx 6x. I have a clear idea of what I want for my life and I want to achieve financial independence very early in my career (10 years of working full time) to pursue other interests and travel. I will aggressively save most of my salary in order to do that. My wife likes the idea of FI and traveling, but I occasionally have the feeling she will be content in spending her salary as she pleases, with no significant concerns in savings while I do the "dirty work". She is also content with taking one 2 week vacation per year and continuing to work as she currently does. She is very independent and is completely able to take care of herself without needing my help.
The first point is one that I already know - I should've had this conversation about finances and future plans more extensively before getting married, but you know. Can't go back into the past now. We are deeply in love and I have no plans of divorcing her - our marriage has been doing great.
However I worry about the future and of being part of the statistics with the high divorce rate.
I don't feel it is fair for me to work hard for 10 years to be able to be financially independent, but if something goes wrong and we don't make it as a couple, I would have to hand over to her half of my hard work, only to add another 10 years to my full time working career.
I have been reading about postnuptial agreements.
I would like suggestions on the following topics:
1. how to bring this conversation up with her?
2. If we proceed with it, how should we write up the agreement, in a way that is fair to both us us? For example, properties that we buy and pay together will belong to both of us, but retirement accounts, taxable accounts, will be separated completely in the event of a divorce?

Any suggestions?

I think as the other posters have said, the most notable thing about your post is that your entire current worldview is entirely unsuited for marriage.

If you are committed to your worldview, then divorce your wife immediately. Nothing you can do has a good chance of surviving the division of assets in marriage. The best way to preserve your assets and for you to achieve financial independence young in life is to divorce now. All the other options will almost certainly not work, or are illegal. (like hiding your savings in a foreign account) All other methods are lipstick on a pig. If there was a good way you would have already found out about it in your research.

If you want to learn more, then what I would do is read divorce cases and division of assets following divorce. Pay attention to what happens the vast majority of the time. Pay less attention to fringe strategies or cases. Don't go digging around enough websites until you find some text that will support your hopes. (i.e. post nuptial arrangements) Focus on what happens to the vast majority of people. That's what you can expect to happen to you.

If the exceedingly wealthy cannot prevent the massive payouts from divorce, then you seeking financial independence, certainly will not be able to find a new and novel way in the law, which requires a judge to agree to.

As for the worldview thing, the others have said it better than me. When you're married, you're in it together. There is no I, there is we.
Your right hand does not accuse you of unfairly favoring your left hand. Neither should you see your wife as your deadweight financial entity who doesn't pull her own, while you unfairly carry the burden. She and you are one: in theory emotionally, but 100% legally for purposes of your future assets.

If you and her are one, and your marriage is a shared partnership, then you see why the idea of a postnuptial is on its face preposterous.
Your assumptions assume you and her are not in a shared partnership. And for that reason, I see no possible way to break this to your wife and have it go well.

Even if she doesn't react strongly immediately, she will certainly realize the implications very quickly afterwards.
Last edited by TomCat96 on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ervin
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Ervin » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:59 pm

TomCat96 wrote: I think as the other posters have said, the most notable thing about your post is that your entire current worldview is entirely unsuited for marriage.

If you are committed to your worldview, then divorce your wife immediately. Nothing you can do has a good chance of surviving the division of assets in marriage. The best way to preserve your assets and for you to achieve financial independence young in life is to divorce now. All the other options will almost certainly not work, or are illegal. (like hiding your savings in a foreign account) All other methods are lipstick on a pig. If there was a good way you would have already found out about it in your research.

If you want to learn more, then what I would do is read divorce cases and division of assets following divorce. Pay attention to what happens the vast majority of the time. Pay less attention to fringe strategies or cases. Don't go digging around enough websites until you find some text that will support your hopes. (i.e. post nuptial arrangements) Focus on what happens to the vast majority of people. That's what you can expect to happen to you.

If the exceedingly wealthy cannot prevent the massive payouts from divorce, then you seeking financial independence, certainly will not be able to find a new and novel way in the law, which requires a judge to agree to.

As for the worldview thing, the others have said it better than me. When you're married, you're in it together. There is no I, there is we.
Your right hand does not accuse you of unfairly favoring your left hand. Neither should you see your wife as your deadweight financial entity who doesn't pull her own, while you unfairly carry the burden. She and you are one: in theory emotionally, but 100% legally for purposes of your future assets.

If you and her are one, and your marriage is a shared partnership, then you see why the idea of a postnuptial is on its face preposterous.
Your assumptions assume you and her are not in a shared partnership. And for that reason, I see no possible way to break this to your wife and have it go well.

Even if she react strongly immediately, she will certainly realize the implications very quickly afterwards.
I wish I could have said it this well. :thumbsup
RIP, Mr. Bogle.

Heir-A-Parent
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Heir-A-Parent » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:03 pm

I think it is totally fair if one spouse spends more than the other to segregate finances. If you merely earn more than the other then I am less inclined to be sympathetic. I would take all the talk about "we instead of I" with a grain of salt. Marriage is not a meal ticket for one spouse. You can reasonably expect your spouse to spend money responsibly, and if they cannot to put a limit on what they can spend, the limit being what they can earn.

I would have the talk. If your wife takes it badly and cannot empathize with your desire for fairness - here as just desert - in money matters then there is an ulterior motive at hand. If this precipitates a divorce you should consider yourself lucky.

I am less sympathetic to your desire to travel after a ten year career. This may be a wanderlust spurred on by the med school and residency gauntlet, but as others have said med school slots are rare things and you shouldn't waste yours.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Doom&Gloom » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:17 pm

You "recently" got married and NOW you have these concerns?

Good grief!

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kaizen
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by kaizen » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:35 pm

I had to take a few minutes to swallow the embarrassment that I felt reading the responses, but I come here to humbly say what a jerk I was. This community never ceases to amaze; I learn from you guys day and day out, but I think this was my most valuable lesson. Thank you for opening my eyes, and I am ashamed that I could've been so selfish.
I am glad I didn't do anything stupid that could've ruined my marriage, and I will absolutely stop being narcissistic and think of me and my wife together.
Thank you again.

Lafder
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Lafder » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:52 pm

Kaizen,
I have hope that your marriage can last after reading your reply above!!

I remember feeling anxious when my husband and I combined finances.

So far it has worked out for us :).

lafder

GoldenFinch
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by GoldenFinch » Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:56 pm

kaizen wrote:I had to take a few minutes to swallow the embarrassment that I felt reading the responses, but I come here to humbly say what a jerk I was. This community never ceases to amaze; I learn from you guys day and day out, but I think this was my most valuable lesson. Thank you for opening my eyes, and I am ashamed that I could've been so selfish.
I am glad I didn't do anything stupid that could've ruined my marriage, and I will absolutely stop being narcissistic and think of me and my wife together.
Thank you again.
:sharebeer

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David Jay
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by David Jay » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:03 pm

kaizen wrote:I had to take a few minutes to swallow the embarrassment that I felt reading the responses, but I come here to humbly say what a jerk I was. This community never ceases to amaze; I learn from you guys day and day out, but I think this was my most valuable lesson. Thank you for opening my eyes, and I am ashamed that I could've been so selfish.
I am glad I didn't do anything stupid that could've ruined my marriage, and I will absolutely stop being narcissistic and think of me and my wife together.
Thank you again.
You demonstrate an ability to listen and evaluate. Keep it up and you will be fine!
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

Ninnie
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Ninnie » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:17 pm

Kaizen,

You are in a good position because you come into the marriage with comparable debt and no significant assets. Going forward everything you earn during the marriage belongs to both of you- one big family pot. Remember, we, we, we. Congratulations on a promising future family and career.

michaelsieg
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by michaelsieg » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:19 pm

I think most things that needed to be said have been said. A postnuptial agreement makes absolutely no sense in your situation - it is very different, if one side brings significant assets into a marriage.
No matter how the marriage will turn out, it makes it easy that you both essentially start from 0. Whatever you both will have accumulated, should you decide to split up, should be split evenly. Any agreement that would say otherwise could be contested by the other party and likely would not hold if there was a dispute.

psychodoc
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by psychodoc » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:23 pm

Careful, given your ability to admit being wrong and willingness to loosen narcissism, you will lose credibility by posting that you are a physician!

Non7WoodUser
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Non7WoodUser » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:24 pm

High income men should always get ironclad prenups.

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White Coat Investor
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by White Coat Investor » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:32 pm

kaizen wrote:I had to take a few minutes to swallow the embarrassment that I felt reading the responses, but I come here to humbly say what a jerk I was. This community never ceases to amaze; I learn from you guys day and day out, but I think this was my most valuable lesson. Thank you for opening my eyes, and I am ashamed that I could've been so selfish.
I am glad I didn't do anything stupid that could've ruined my marriage, and I will absolutely stop being narcissistic and think of me and my wife together.
Thank you again.
Wow! I'm impressed.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

Barefootgirl
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Barefootgirl » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:39 pm

High income men should always get ironclad prenups.
High income people should always get ironclad prenups.

There, I fixed that for you, you're welcome.

To the OP, don't apologize for being human and experiencing human-like thoughts and feelings. Good luck to you and your wife in the future.

BFG
How many retired people does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Only one, but he takes all day.

hmw
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by hmw » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:41 pm

OP, I am a doc as well.

My advice is that trying to retire in 10 years may be a little extreme. While it may be easy to live like a resident for a few years on an attending's income, it won't be fun for live like that for 10 years. You may not be able to save as much as you think. You will pay a lot of taxes. If you decide to have kids, the expenses will add up quickly. Your wife may decide to become a SAHM to take care of the kids. It probably won't make much financial sense for your wife to work as a nurse as the tax rate will be very high due to your high income.

Set to a goal to retire in 20 years and live a little. BTW, we are pretty fugal and there is no way I can retire after practicing for only 10 years. I am in a relatively well paid specialty.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Doom&Gloom » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:42 pm

kaizen wrote:I had to take a few minutes to swallow the embarrassment that I felt reading the responses, but I come here to humbly say what a jerk I was. This community never ceases to amaze; I learn from you guys day and day out, but I think this was my most valuable lesson. Thank you for opening my eyes, and I am ashamed that I could've been so selfish.
I am glad I didn't do anything stupid that could've ruined my marriage, and I will absolutely stop being narcissistic and think of me and my wife together.
Thank you again.
Wow! Best of luck to both of you going forward!
psychodoc wrote:Careful, given your ability to admit being wrong and willingness to loosen narcissism, you will lose credibility by posting that you are a physician!
LOL!

Isabelle77
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by Isabelle77 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:28 pm

Just a quick comment on when a postnuptial agreement might make sense. My husband and I had a very basic one done (at the same time as our trusts) when we decided for me to quit my career to stay at home with our children. It was a very scary step for me but something we both wanted and my husband wanted me to feel secure.

A dozen years later it's pretty clear we didn't actually need it but I certainly appreciated it at the time.

GoldenFinch
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by GoldenFinch » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:49 pm

psychodoc wrote:Careful, given your ability to admit being wrong and willingness to loosen narcissism, you will lose credibility by posting that you are a physician!
This statement is extra funny considering it comes from "psychodoc." Hmmm.........:D

(Flexibility bodes well for the OP and his wife.)

reggiesimpson
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Re: Postnuptial agreement for Physician

Post by reggiesimpson » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:01 pm

1. Get solid legal advice regarding the state you folks live in. Do this now.
2. Take the advice and and formulate a plan to divorce post hast. Admit you made a terrible error by not formulating and demanding a prenup well in advance of marriage as that would have allayed your well founded fears.
3. Get over the romantic love notions that you are suffering from (it appears you are already there).
4. Close this chapter of your life and move on before its too late!

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