Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

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btks
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Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

I'm currently a sophomore in college pursuing a BS in Computer Science. I will graduate in May 2018 and I am looking to move back to Northern VA. Yet, living there will be very costly for someone just entering the workforce and I can barely fathom how anyone right out of college can afford to live in the Northern VA/DC area. As a single person, that will be quite difficult.

But, there are some very good reasons to live there: more job opportunities, higher salary potentials, etc. Because I am pursuing a degree in CS, I will most likely seek employment as a software engineer. No idea what to expect coming out of college in terms of salary in the Northern VA/DC area. And, almost surely I won't be able to buy a home in that area for at least five to ten years given that the median home price is well over $500K!

Of course, I could choose to remain in Richmond, VA, where I am going to college. But, I don't believe there are enough job opportunities here and the pay will likely be significantly lower than in NoVA... at least that's what I would think. However, the homes cost less here, too.

I know I'm still 2.5 years away from graduating, but I always like to have a game plan and I want to know what to expect when I graduate. Everyone is always telling me that I will be very successful... but I've run the numbers and even if I start out at $80,000 (probably not likely?), things will be tight in Northern VA if I were to purchase a home. Any thoughts / ideas about what I can expect to make there and whether it is even worth it?

I might also add that I already have two years of experience working as a web developer and I'll likely keep this job until I graduate. So, at least I will have four years of experience coming out of college.
mac808
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by mac808 »

From what I hear Northern VA is expensive because it has amazing schools and is close to DC. Lots of Government workers who have been there for a long time with stable, decent jobs. If you like the Northeast then NoVa is about as far south as you can go and still retain some of that Northeastern culture without having to suffer through terrible winters.

As a software developer you'll probably start out around $80k or even higher. It's not hard to be financially set on that income. Well, to be fair, knowing what to do, and actually doing it, are two different things. The secret is just to pretend that you are poor and continue living like a college student after you graduate. Have roommates in the cheapest safe area close to work, drive a beater car, don't eat out, don't buy new clothes, etc. Do that for 5-7 years and save 50%+ of your take home income. Instead of going out 5 nights a week pick up extra consulting work on the side for other companies or local startups. You'll be financially set by the time you are 30.
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

You're young and you may be expecting a bit too much right out of college. When I got out of college in 1985 with an engineering degree, I had to live at home for two years before I could move out on my own. And that was in the Baltimore metro area. I didn't buy a house for another 8 years, and that was only possible because I married a career woman.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

mac808 wrote:From what I hear Northern VA is expensive because it has amazing schools and is close to DC. Lots of Government workers who have been there for a long time with stable, decent jobs. If you like the Northeast then NoVa is about as far south as you can go and still retain some of that Northeastern culture without having to suffer through terrible winters.

As a software developer you'll probably start out around $80k or even higher. It's not hard to be financially set on that income. Well, to be fair, knowing what to do, and actually doing it, are two different things. The secret is just to pretend that you are poor and continue living like a college student after you graduate. Have roommates in the cheapest safe area close to work, drive a beater car, don't eat out, don't buy new clothes, etc. Do that for 5-7 years and save 50%+ of your take home income. Instead of going out 5 nights a week pick up extra consulting work on the side for other companies or local startups. You'll be financially set by the time you are 30.
Fortunately, by that time, I will have my current card paid-off (2015 Mazda Mazda3) and I will have a reliable and dependable car for the years following. And, I am not one of those people who go out or eat out all the time... I usually sit behind my Mac programming. I've been that way since middle school - so I have $75,000 set aside that will be available to me when I graduate.

I've been looking at houses in/around Fairfax and they're outrageous. Then, I looked at condos/apartments, which are actually affordable! Would it be smart to buy an apartment/condo there with a 20% downpayment from my savings, and then rent out one of the bedrooms? Or, would it be more advisable for me to rent out a bedroom from someone else and save some more money, until lets say 30?
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

MikeWillRetire wrote:You're young and you may be expecting a bit too much right out of college. When I got out of college in 1985 with an engineering degree, I had to live at home for two years before I could move out on my own. And that was in the Baltimore metro area. I didn't buy a house for another 8 years, and that was only possible because I married a career woman.
Unfortunately, that option won't be available to me. I will have to support myself completely out of college. Did you have student loans? I am fortunate to not have any right now. And, would it be safe to assume that you weren't as financially savvy or thrifty back then? Just trying to get an overall picture. I live quite cheaply and frugally, and I wouldn't change that coming out of college.
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

Yes, I had some student loans, but not too much. If you have to fully support yourself, there are ways to do it. I work with some young engineers right out of college, and some of them rent rooms in other peoples places for a while.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by randomguy »

DC isn't an expensive the way places like NYC or SF are. I wouldn't be shocked to learn that you get paid enough more to compensate for COL change. And a roommate or two makes it even more affordable. A lot depends on where you are working (a job in Dulles lets you live in a cheap suburb 10 miles the other way from DC. A start up in the city leaves you either with a huge commute or paying a lot more in rent).

Personally I would pick the place with the best job.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by furwut »

I would reconsider making a home purchase a goal just out of college. Too many opportunities at this stage in your life can arise and you want to be free to pursue them.

I lived with roommates until I was about 35. Didn't buy a home until I was 43. But I was able to retire at 51!. DC area is expensive but professional salaries do compensate for it. Where it becomes an advantage is when, after a long career here, you are able to move to an area with a much lower cost of living.

But at your age I would let my interests and career goals determine where to live. The DC area is okay for software engineering but absent some other attraction I think there are stronger areas of the country to look at first. For example I would recommend Austin or Seattle.
Lars_2013
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Lars_2013 »

btks wrote:I've been looking at houses in/around Fairfax and they're outrageous. Then, I looked at condos/apartments, which are actually affordable! Would it be smart to buy an apartment/condo there with a 20% downpayment from my savings, and then rent out one of the bedrooms? Or, would it be more advisable for me to rent out a bedroom from someone else and save some more money, until lets say 30?
I'd rent for the flexibility to move if a good job opportunity came up somewhere else (even just the opposite end of the DC metro region).

More broadly, I think you'll need to look at particular job opportunities in the DC area compared to NoVA, but I suspect the salary differential will make it worth it for you to live in the DC area. But that's assuming you do what every single other 20-something I know in the DC region does, which is live with housemates. If you do that, the rent differential between RVA and NoVA is probably only a couple hundred bucks a month. Add in ~$200/month in other higher costs (metro passes unless your employer pays for them, etc), any maybe you're looking at $500/month in higher costs. Annualized, that's just $6k/year, or about $9k/year in additional gross salary to end up with an addition $6k in spendable pay.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

randomguy wrote:DC isn't an expensive the way places like NYC or SF are. I wouldn't be shocked to learn that you get paid enough more to compensate for COL change. And a roommate or two makes it even more affordable. A lot depends on where you are working (a job in Dulles lets you live in a cheap suburb 10 miles the other way from DC. A start up in the city leaves you either with a huge commute or paying a lot more in rent).

Personally I would pick the place with the best job.
There are so many jobs in/around D.C. that I'm sure I could find one that is not in the city. However, I wouldn't really mind a long commute, either, which could also make housing cheaper. It may be nice to buy a small condo/apartment in Fairfax/Centreville. Two years away, but time does go fast and it is good to be prepared for the future.
qwerty3020
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by qwerty3020 »

I live in a Maryland suburb of DC and in my opinion it is NOT worth it to "settle down" here. But it is a great place to start your career. And there are many fun things for a young person to do. So if you took a job here for a two or three years, learned alot, lived frugally with a roommate (don't buy!) and enjoyed all of the recreation that DC has to offer, and then moved on, you probably wouldn't regret it.
mac808
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by mac808 »

btks wrote:
mac808 wrote:From what I hear Northern VA is expensive because it has amazing schools and is close to DC. Lots of Government workers who have been there for a long time with stable, decent jobs. If you like the Northeast then NoVa is about as far south as you can go and still retain some of that Northeastern culture without having to suffer through terrible winters.

As a software developer you'll probably start out around $80k or even higher. It's not hard to be financially set on that income. Well, to be fair, knowing what to do, and actually doing it, are two different things. The secret is just to pretend that you are poor and continue living like a college student after you graduate. Have roommates in the cheapest safe area close to work, drive a beater car, don't eat out, don't buy new clothes, etc. Do that for 5-7 years and save 50%+ of your take home income. Instead of going out 5 nights a week pick up extra consulting work on the side for other companies or local startups. You'll be financially set by the time you are 30.
Fortunately, by that time, I will have my current card paid-off (2015 Mazda Mazda3) and I will have a reliable and dependable car for the years following. And, I am not one of those people who go out or eat out all the time... I usually sit behind my Mac programming. I've been that way since middle school - so I have $75,000 set aside that will be available to me when I graduate.

I've been looking at houses in/around Fairfax and they're outrageous. Then, I looked at condos/apartments, which are actually affordable! Would it be smart to buy an apartment/condo there with a 20% downpayment from my savings, and then rent out one of the bedrooms? Or, would it be more advisable for me to rent out a bedroom from someone else and save some more money, until lets say 30?
Just rent a crappy place and forget about owning anything for now. Prices can't go much higher outside of areas that are laundering foreign money. Focus on maximizing income, minimizing expenses, saving and investing as much as possible.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by furwut »

btks wrote: I've been looking at houses in/around Fairfax and they're outrageous. Then, I looked at condos/apartments, which are actually affordable! Would it be smart to buy an apartment/condo there with a 20% downpayment from my savings, and then rent out one of the bedrooms? Or, would it be more advisable for me to rent out a bedroom from someone else and save some more money, until lets say 30?
If you are looking to maximize your income I'd say the best way to do that is to stay hungry and job hop. Years ago that used to be a big career no-no. Not so much anymore and particularly not in the field of software engineering. Many of the consultants I worked with changed jobs every 2 - 3 years and changed cities almost as often. These were consultants that were making low to mid 6 figure salaries too!
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

furwut wrote:I would reconsider making a home purchase a goal just out of college. Too many opportunities at this stage in your life can arise and you want to be free to pursue them.

I lived with roommates until I was about 35. Didn't buy a home until I was 43. But I was able to retire at 51!. DC area is expensive but professional salaries do compensate for it. Where it becomes an advantage is when, after a long career here, you are able to move to an area with a much lower cost of living.

But at your age I would let my interests and career goals determine where to live. The DC area is okay for software engineering but absent some other attraction I think there are stronger areas of the country to look at first. For example I would recommend Austin or Seattle.
I know I have thought about those two areas, but I've also lived in VA my entire live and leaving the state would be a tough decision to make. There's also SF, but the cost of living and home prices there are not too shabby... I googled and found this: http://www.businessinsider.com/cities-u ... ing-2015-6

Of course, that is all subject to change... still, you're right, DC is not ranked that well.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by furwut »

btks wrote: Of course, that is all subject to change... still, you're right, DC is not ranked that well.
Also keep in mind that many of the salaries in DC are inflated because of security clearance requirements. If you don't have that clearance then those jobs are off limits to you.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by JDCarpenter »

btks wrote:...

There are so many jobs in/around D.C. that I'm sure I could find one that is not in the city. However, I wouldn't really mind a long commute, either, which could also make housing cheaper. It may be nice to buy a small condo/apartment in Fairfax/Centreville. Two years away, but time does go fast and it is good to be prepared for the future.
My son is a san fran engineer who makes decent (not software engineer) money; his roommate/fiancee has transitioned from coding/engineering to program management and makes multiples of decent money (don't know exactly, but they were asking us about MFJ tax brackets and how the deduction phaseouts work....). They are in late 20s, so a bit older than you and have been fully employed since graduating colleges in four years. They have no car. They rent what passes for a cheap apartment within walking distance of respective jobs. He still shops at Goodwill/Salvation Army. I see this as a huge positive for them long-term, as they are rapidly accumulating substantial assets without having to count on either of their equity/lottery tickets coming in.

In your position in two years, I think something like their approach would be prudent. (And they do spend pretty serious money on travel. Probably all of the savings from clothes and no car.)
Our personal blog (no ads) of why we saved/invested: https://www.lisajtravels.com/
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by randomguy »

btks wrote:
There are so many jobs in/around D.C. that I'm sure I could find one that is not in the city. However, I wouldn't really mind a long commute, either, which could also make housing cheaper. It may be nice to buy a small condo/apartment in Fairfax/Centreville. Two years away, but time does go fast and it is good to be prepared for the future.
Unless you have done a long commute (1 hour+) for a year, I would hesitate to assume you will not mind it. Spending 2 hours/day in car is draining. It is expensive. And if you are working 10 hrs/day (pretty standard for a good CS job), it really cuts into your free time to do anything else.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by wolf359 »

My first job out of college was in Northern VA. I'm still in the area. If you're from here, live at home if you can while you save up. If you're not, get roommates or live further out.

Your first home is not going to be your final home. Don't expect to have the same standard of living as your parents when you first come out of college. Check out Zillow and other real estate sites. There are plenty of homes for less than $500K, unless you insist on living close in, in a single family home, that is recently built. Go older, further out, smaller, and the price goes down. I have co-workers who live in Southern Maryland, West Virginia, Fredericksburg, and even Norfolk. (The Norfolk person rents an apartment in town and drives home on weekends.)

While houses are expensive, rents are reasonable. It's a difficult area for real estate investors because the rents aren't high enough to justify them to pay the prices. You don't have to buy. There are still ways to buy if you try.

My first home was a townhouse that I acquired after a big savings effort for a downpayment. I stretched to afford it, but then shared it with roommates, which effectively brought my cost to almost nothing. Your estimate is in the ballpark -- it took me about 4 years of savings before I had a sufficient downpayment.

It's definitely worth it in the long term. If you have a family here, the public school system is one of the best in the country.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by skepticalobserver »

I've lived in the DC Metro area, mostly Montgomery County, for about 40 years. Unquestionably, compared to other parts of the US, it's expensive.

You get what you pay for, especially in Montgomery County.The municipal services are pretty good: fire, police (honest), sanitation (the streets, for the most part, are impeccable), public support services ( a recent WAMU story reported there are no homeless vets--none-in the county due to county programs), some of the highest rated public schools in the US, excellent public libraries, public sport facilities (swimming, soccer, tennis and hockey), etc.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

randomguy wrote:
btks wrote:
There are so many jobs in/around D.C. that I'm sure I could find one that is not in the city. However, I wouldn't really mind a long commute, either, which could also make housing cheaper. It may be nice to buy a small condo/apartment in Fairfax/Centreville. Two years away, but time does go fast and it is good to be prepared for the future.
Unless you have done a long commute (1 hour+) for a year, I would hesitate to assume you will not mind it. Spending 2 hours/day in car is draining. It is expensive. And if you are working 10 hrs/day (pretty standard for a good CS job), it really cuts into your free time to do anything else.
I already spend about 3-4 hours a day in the car... I've gotten accustomed to being in the car a lot.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

furwut wrote:I would reconsider making a home purchase a goal just out of college. Too many opportunities at this stage in your life can arise and you want to be free to pursue them.

I lived with roommates until I was about 35. Didn't buy a home until I was 43. But I was able to retire at 51!. DC area is expensive but professional salaries do compensate for it. Where it becomes an advantage is when, after a long career here, you are able to move to an area with a much lower cost of living.

But at your age I would let my interests and career goals determine where to live. The DC area is okay for software engineering but absent some other attraction I think there are stronger areas of the country to look at first. For example I would recommend Austin or Seattle.
What do you think about Raleigh, NC? I saw it ranked pretty well on a list (3rd)... that would keep me close to some of my family. I had never heard of Raleigh, NC being good for software development until now.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by adamthesmythe »

It could be worse. My first job was in silicon valley. I rented; and after two years I decided I did not want to buy a house there. Moved east to a city with a more moderate cost of living.

As far as your situation is concerned. You need to go where the good jobs are- good meaning not just pay but an opportunity to get experience and to learn things. Live in an apartment; commute as far as you need to; take a roommate. Some combination of those will work. When your salary goes up, AND you know where you want to stay, then start thinking about houses.
betterfinances
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by betterfinances »

I would say you should go where you land a job.

I wouldn't worry about it, as a lot can happen in 2.5 years. For example, many people think we are in a tech bubble and it will pop before you graduate, which might make it very difficult to get a job.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

betterfinances wrote:I would say you should go where you land a job.

I wouldn't worry about it, as a lot can happen in 2.5 years. For example, many people think we are in a tech bubble and it will pop before you graduate, which might make it very difficult to get a job.
Good point. I guess the best thing for me to do is to continue to excel in school. Then, in the last semester of my senior year, begin applying to jobs in different cities and go from there.

And, that would be very bad for us STEM graduates. Of course, the world now revolves around technology, so there will always be jobs... even now, there are more jobs to fill than there are qualified candidates. And, though more and more people are choosing to major in Computer Science, I believe that there will always be an undersupply of (good) software engineers. When I took my first CS class last year, we had about 200 people in the Introduction to Programming class. Fast forward to now - half of those people have changed majors or dropped out of college all together. The first few "weed-out" classes really took many people by surprise, and they didn't make it. It's probably a good thing, though, because those classes were the foundation of everything we are doing now.

On a side note, I do feel that innovation today is not very innovative. We are creating more things to make people more lazy... and self-driving cars, I'm not so sure about them. As a programmer, I would be afraid to let a car drive me, because a simple arithmetic or casting error by a programmer could prove to be deadly... think Ariane 5.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by quantAndHold »

Software jobs in Northern VA are mostly in the government sector. Either government contracting, or working directly for the government. There are lots of jobs, but government salaries won't be quite as high as in the commercial sector. Fresh out of college with a BS, think $60k, not $80k, but it will go up quickly as you get experience. Most of the work requires a security clearance, which is no big deal if you're a US citizen.

I've done government contracting and I've done commercial work. My description of the difference between the two is that in commercial work, your focus is on developing a product. In government contracting, the focus is on keeping the customer happy, and competing against the other contractors. About half of my time in the govt contracting jobs was typically spent on tasks that weren't directly about developing a product.

As a new grad, you will probably find yourself doing a nationwide job search, and picking the best job offer, regardless of location. Unless you specifically want to stay in NVA because of family ties, I wouldn't worry about location yet.

The best job opportunities for new grads usually come from summer internships. Unless you want to be pigeonholed as a web developer (which, sadly, pays less than regular software development), you might want to consider applying for summer internships at companies you're interested in working at.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by adamthesmythe »

> in the last semester of my senior year, begin applying to jobs in different cities

Job hunting starts sooner than that.

Junior year: go the job fairs and try to land an internship for that summer.

Senior year: interview with companies that come to campus.

If you haven't been to your school's placement office to find out about what they do, it's not too early. And don't skip the presentations they offer.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

quantAndHold wrote:Software jobs in Northern VA are mostly in the government sector. Either government contracting, or working directly for the government. There are lots of jobs, but government salaries won't be quite as high as in the commercial sector. Fresh out of college with a BS, think $60k, not $80k, but it will go up quickly as you get experience. Most of the work requires a security clearance, which is no big deal if you're a US citizen.

I've done government contracting and I've done commercial work. My description of the difference between the two is that in commercial work, your focus is on developing a product. In government contracting, the focus is on keeping the customer happy, and competing against the other contractors. About half of my time in the govt contracting jobs was typically spent on tasks that weren't directly about developing a product.

As a new grad, you will probably find yourself doing a nationwide job search, and picking the best job offer, regardless of location. Unless you specifically want to stay in NVA because of family ties, I wouldn't worry about location yet.

The best job opportunities for new grads usually come from summer internships. Unless you want to be pigeonholed as a web developer (which, sadly, pays less than regular software development), you might want to consider applying for summer internships at companies you're interested in working at.
I really want to do that, but I have a dilemma... Right now, I have a job where I can work my own hours and I can even work out of the office. Beginning next month, they are putting me on salary for $30K. There are no set hours that I have to work, just as long as I get the work done, which is honestly 15-20 hours a week. If I drop this job for an internship one summer, well, you get where I'm going with this. It's better to stay with my current employer given the pay and flexibility. I won't find this again, not as a college student.

And no, I don't want to stay in web development. I enjoy C and Java a lot more.
Last edited by btks on Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

adamthesmythe wrote:> in the last semester of my senior year, begin applying to jobs in different cities

Job hunting starts sooner than that.

Junior year: go the job fairs and try to land an internship for that summer.

Senior year: interview with companies that come to campus.

If you haven't been to your school's placement office to find out about what they do, it's not too early. And don't skip the presentations they offer.
I'm employed now and make decent money for the amount of hours I work... if I give that up for a summer internship, is it worth it?
Church Lady
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Church Lady »

btks wrote: I really want to do that, but I have a dilemma... It's better to stay with my current employer given the pay and flexibility. I won't find this again, not as a college student.

And no, I don't want to stay in web development. ...
If you don't want to stay in Web Development, look for an internship in a job you want to do. If you can't find such a job, you can fall back on this. If you do find an internship and excel, you give up a temporary gain for a leg up on your dream job.

Just a thought!
He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

Church Lady wrote:
btks wrote: I really want to do that, but I have a dilemma... It's better to stay with my current employer given the pay and flexibility. I won't find this again, not as a college student.

And no, I don't want to stay in web development. ...
If you don't want to stay in Web Development, look for an internship in a job you want to do. If you can't find such a job, you can fall back on this. If you do find an internship and excel, you give up a temporary gain for a leg up on your dream job.

Just a thought!
But, to make a few thousand one summer and give up $30,000? I started at this company doing IT support, but then a client wanted web services, so I ended up writing them a complex web system to automate and make some of their processes easy. I know the total figure for the system was $300,000, so I'm getting $30,000 a year to maintain the system, basically. But if I leave the company, I will lose that money, and ultimately, someone else will take over something I created.

Now, I am completely self-taught. Everything I know about web development I have learned on my own. Even for the complex web application I built, I quickly learned a new framework to make it happen. I began learning at the age of 10, and even sold my first website at 13/14 for a large sum of money. What I have learned in college thus far has not been relevant to the real world, but that's all too common.

So, I could learn the Spring Framework (Java), which is widely used by many companies, and make something with it to include on my portfolio. I know Java pretty well, which is what my college primarily uses. I also want to learn C++. Essentially, I could maintain my job as a web developer, and learn more on the side as a bonus...

Another thing I have going for me... as of right now, I have a 4.0 GPA. Now, I have accepted that I probably won't graduate with a 4.0, but I know that I will come out of college with an admirable GPA. And, who knows, maybe I will get a 4.0 - but I like to lower my expectations, so I won't be sad or disappointed with myself. I am one of those students who has always excelled in school, graduating HS with all As.
Church Lady
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Church Lady »

btks wrote:
Church Lady wrote:
btks wrote: I really want to do that, but I have a dilemma... It's better to stay with my current employer given the pay and flexibility. I won't find this again, not as a college student.

And no, I don't want to stay in web development. ...
If you don't want to stay in Web Development, look for an internship in a job you want to do. If you can't find such a job, you can fall back on this. If you do find an internship and excel, you give up a temporary gain for a leg up on your dream job.

Just a thought!
But, to make a few thousand one summer and give up $30,000? .... if I leave the company, I will lose that money, and ultimately, someone else will take over something I created.
1) Yes, if the internship is for your dream job and you are sure you don't want to stay in web development. You do not talk like someone who has an urgent need for the $30,000, so think long term.
2) Unless you want to work there forever, ultimately someone will take over "your" project.
3) Congratulations on the 4.0!
He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.
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Toons
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Toons »

You have to go where the money is located to find employment in your field,
Northern Va is expensive and gridlocked traffic wise ,,but
some people love it there.
I was born and raised in Va Beach,,,too bad you can't find employment near Williamsburg :happy
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ge1
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by ge1 »

I highly recommend the Raleigh Durham area. Lots of great IT companies (SAS, Cisco), housing still very affordable compared to the big cities and big enough to have a decent night life for a single person. And only a few hours from VA.
Rodc
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Rodc »

Living on your own, as in having your own apartment or house, in my opinion is over rated. Lonely.

Get a place to live, not in middle suburbia where boring old family people like me live, in the city or close. Maybe like Old Town Alexandria, or some hip area in DC, with some other young people and have some fun.

Save your money and in a few or several years when you want to settle down (and if) you can move to the boring burbs (It can be a great place to raise a family - I have no regrets about living in the burbs though in a city rather north of you {but I grew up in NoVA})

Or move to some other hot spot across the country. You are young. Go for it!

People mention the traffic - that is a far bigger turn off for me than the housing prices.

Best of luck!
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by randomguy »

Church Lady wrote:
But, to make a few thousand one summer and give up $30,000? .... if I leave the company, I will lose that money, and ultimately, someone else will take over something I created.
1) Yes, if the internship is for your dream job and you are sure you don't want to stay in web development. You do not talk like someone who has an urgent need for the $30,000, so think long term.
2) Unless you want to work there forever, ultimately someone will take over "your" project.
3) Congratulations on the 4.0![/quote]

Internships are also more than a few thousand dollars. Google and Facebook pay almost 6k/month + a housing allowance. And yeah people should be willing to do those internships for free because the experience is super valuable.
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pointyhairedboss
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by pointyhairedboss »

Add me to the 'think about the long term' camp.

You appear to be a very smart person. You are not going to have any problem with a career in software, whether it be in DC, NoVa, Raleigh, San Fran, or any other big city that has a tech edge.

I would focus more on the quality of the job opportunity, including both the quality of the job and the surrounding area/ city, and less on the salary or whether you could afford a house.

Do also consider your personal life. You only get to be in your twenties once. I lived in NoVa in my twenties and still live in NoVa now. I like the area a lot - as some one said above, is the most southern area that still has that north east culture - but a part of me wishes that I would have lived in DC in my twenties. The city has a higher concentration of young single people and has a lot going for it.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by travelnut11 »

I did exactly what you're proposing 17 years ago (yikes!) right after I graduated from college. I only stayed for two years as I had other parts of the country I wanted to check out but it was a great experience and I highly recommend it. I made $31K my first year and thought I was rolling in the cash considering how little I'd been surviving on in college. I met my roommate through the City Paper which was a great experience and lived in a great apartment in Arlington (Courthouse Metro) for about $550/mo. Of course things are more expensive now but I found it completely doable on my (lowish)salary and I had plenty left over to save.

I don't think you should be thinking about buying a place at all. You have your whole life to worry about mortgages...you're young so go get some experience and have some fun! Definitely not Fairfax. If it were me I probably wouldn't go past Ballston so you could still have close proximity to DC and a reasonable commute.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by JDCarpenter »

btks wrote: ,,,

I'm employed now and make decent money for the amount of hours I work... if I give that up for a summer internship, is it worth it?
Does your school have a clinic program? Eldest was published and on patent based on his work in clinic programs during undergrad. Had job offers from them as well. (Was required at Mudd....)
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pointyhairedboss
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by pointyhairedboss »

You already have a paying job relevant to your field of study. It will look great on your resume. How does this differ from an internship?

Because you have done good work for this company, they may be open to giving you other opportunities within the company if you ask.

If you find an internship that looks more appealing than your current job, than by all means take it, but don't feel you have to take am internship just because you feel it would look good on the resume. You already have that check box checked.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by randomguy »

pointyhairedboss wrote:You already have a paying job relevant to your field of study. It will look great on your resume. How does this differ from an internship?

Because you have done good work for this company, they may be open to giving you other opportunities within the company if you ask.

If you find an internship that looks more appealing than your current job, than by all means take it, but don't feel you have to take am internship just because you feel it would look good on the resume. You already have that check box checked.

Web development isn't quite the same as software development. In fact it can hurt you if you get pigeon holed as a web developer and that isn't what you want to be. There is some overlap between the two but there are large difference.

Obviously a lot comes down to the summer internship. You would be crazy to pass up one with microsoft, apple, facebook, google or the like. They pay well (~5k+housing) and it really helps picking out your next job.
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btks
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by btks »

randomguy wrote:
pointyhairedboss wrote:You already have a paying job relevant to your field of study. It will look great on your resume. How does this differ from an internship?

Because you have done good work for this company, they may be open to giving you other opportunities within the company if you ask.

If you find an internship that looks more appealing than your current job, than by all means take it, but don't feel you have to take am internship just because you feel it would look good on the resume. You already have that check box checked.

Web development isn't quite the same as software development. In fact it can hurt you if you get pigeon holed as a web developer and that isn't what you want to be. There is some overlap between the two but there are large difference.

Obviously a lot comes down to the summer internship. You would be crazy to pass up one with microsoft, apple, facebook, google or the like. They pay well (~5k+housing) and it really helps picking out your next job.
Technically, my job title is Software Engineer, but I primarily build web applications - both the front-end and the back-end. Some of the projects I do will use Symfony or Laravel for both the front-end and back-end, while some will utilize a front-end framework like Backbone with a RESTful back-end using Java. I also manage the servers that the web applications run on, so I am also gaining experience with UNIX/Linux, including shell programming. I think a lot of people think of web development to be WordPress websites and the like. What I do involves designing and building custom applications that are more than your typical website or web forms.

Think Amazon's e-commerce platform... or Facebook, Instagram, etc. These are web-based applications, but they integrate and interact with a wide variety of services including mobile - this is much more than web development.

If I could get an internship at Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc., then I would definitely take that. I will likely apply for internships at these companies for Summer 2017. I'm a little late for Summer 2016, but perhaps I could land one in Summer 2017. Nonetheless, I think my current (salaried) position is pretty well for a college student.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by mephistophles »

No way I would live in D C suburbs. Too much traffic. Way too many people.
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Watty
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Watty »

betterfinances wrote:I would say you should go where you land a job.

I wouldn't worry about it, as a lot can happen in 2.5 years. For example, many people think we are in a tech bubble and it will pop before you graduate, which might make it very difficult to get a job.
+1

But I would add that getting a great first job even if it is not great paying or in a great location can really jumpstart your career. There is also a good chance that early in your career you will change jobs several times and that may also involve moving.

Wait on buying a house.

Once you buy a house then even taking a great job on the other side of town may be difficult.

If you get into a relationship and already own a house then figuring out what to do with the house can get complex.

I have job offers an promotions go to the person that could relocate the quickest without a lot of costs. In one case I saw someone get a good promotion into management over several other people because he could be at the new location by Monday morning. He flew back a few weeks later to pack up his apartment and to let the movers in. If he had a house then he would not have gotten that promotion.

Tech jobs tend to be boom or bust and after the dot com bust it was a terrible job market for a couple of years. That is not unique either there have been other times when it was hard to find a really good tech job.
btks wrote:Now, I am completely self-taught. Everything I know about web development I have learned on my own. Even for the complex web application I built, I quickly learned a new framework to make it happen.
That is great but if you don't have it already it would be really great to get experience with working with a team of people since that will be critical to a lot of possible career paths.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by psystal »

furwut wrote:I would reconsider making a home purchase a goal just out of college. Too many opportunities at this stage in your life can arise and you want to be free to pursue them.

I lived with roommates until I was about 35. Didn't buy a home until I was 43. But I was able to retire at 51!. DC area is expensive but professional salaries do compensate for it. Where it becomes an advantage is when, after a long career here, you are able to move to an area with a much lower cost of living.

But at your age I would let my interests and career goals determine where to live. The DC area is okay for software engineering but absent some other attraction I think there are stronger areas of the country to look at first. For example I would recommend Austin or Seattle.
This is good advice. Home purchases have huge transaction costs that do not add any value to the the home and are not recouped when you sell, and on a $500k home those will be substantial. You will be tied to this property, if you want to break even, for at least 7 years.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by LeaveDC »

qwerty3020 wrote:I live in a Maryland suburb of DC and in my opinion it is NOT worth it to "settle down" here. But it is a great place to start your career. And there are many fun things for a young person to do. So if you took a job here for a two or three years, learned alot, lived frugally with a roommate (don't buy!) and enjoyed all of the recreation that DC has to offer, and then moved on, you probably wouldn't regret it.
Despite my username I do agree with the statement above lol. I live in the Maryland suburbs (MoCo) and DC is an amazing city if you are a high earner which you would be as a software engineer. One thing nobody really touched on is that the DC metro area is primarily a "dual-income" metro area. In order to comfortably "settle down" in the DC area you will need a spouse who is a working professional with minimal debt. Once that is achieved that you can comfortably afford the 500k houses in NoVa.

If you dont take anything from my post, please takeaway that with your experience and educational background DO NOT take anything less that 70-75k to live in the DC metro area.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by Jackson12 »

As a long time homeowner, I urge you to hold off on buying a home at your age, especially while you are at the start of your career. You might or might not pay more monthly to rent ((compared to a home mortgage payment) but you'll gain so much as a renter, including more free time. I love being a homeowner but my spouse and I waited until we were somewhere with stable and likely long- term jobs before buying a home.

There are exceptions but many homes - perhaps most- suck up your time.The costs of home maintenance', real estate taxes, and homeowner's insurance are no longer borne by a landlord.

As renters, my spouse and I paid more monthly ( compared to a typical mortgage payment) but never regretted the decision. We gained time to work harder, save more, and leave the home maintenance to someone else.You either do that maintenance yourself or find the money to pay someone else to do it. And we had time to go to open houses and make a list of desirable features.

During the 3 years we rented, an oven stopped working (twice), there was a small but costly roof leak, the typical maintenance;exterior painting, lawn mowing, snow removal, and leaf raking costs (expenses we didn't gave to pay), a hail storm that cracked 2 windows and an ice dam that required extensive roof repairs. And that's just the tip of the iceberg- and for a home that was relatively new and well- maintained.

That's the reality of home ownership.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by randomguy »

LeaveDC wrote:
qwerty3020 wrote:I live in a Maryland suburb of DC and in my opinion it is NOT worth it to "settle down" here. But it is a great place to start your career. And there are many fun things for a young person to do. So if you took a job here for a two or three years, learned alot, lived frugally with a roommate (don't buy!) and enjoyed all of the recreation that DC has to offer, and then moved on, you probably wouldn't regret it.
Despite my username I do agree with the statement above lol. I live in the Maryland suburbs (MoCo) and DC is an amazing city if you are a high earner which you would be as a software engineer. One thing nobody really touched on is that the DC metro area is primarily a "dual-income" metro area. In order to comfortably "settle down" in the DC area you will need a spouse who is a working professional with minimal debt. Once that is achieved that you can comfortably afford the 500k houses in NoVa.

If you dont take anything from my post, please takeaway that with your experience and educational background DO NOT take anything less that 70-75k to live in the DC metro area.
Asking other people where to live is fruitless as you just get a bunch of personal opinions. I have friends (who are not making 200k/yr) who love living in NYC. For them the pluses of city live outweigh the minuses. Same thing with the bay area (where at least the weather doesn't suck:)). And there is a whole other set that prefers rural locations and can't imagine spending that type of money. And besides the hunting, fishing, hiking , and golf are subpar in the New York City.:) The city folk ask how you can live without a decent museum/music and food without driving 2 hours. Neither group is wrong.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by kazper »

MikeWillRetire wrote:Yes, I had some student loans, but not too much. If you have to fully support yourself, there are ways to do it. I work with some young engineers right out of college, and some of them rent rooms in other peoples places for a while.
This.

I work in the dc area. A lot of my younger coworkers who want to live in dc have several roommates. It keeps things affordable and allows,them to spend their money on things they enjoy- social events, drinks, dates, etc. it is hard, but possible if you are willing to adapt. Trying to buy a house fresh out of college, probably a stretch for the area.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by reggiesimpson »

You are implying that you have family/friends in Northern VA/DC area. If so then move in with them but done buy anything. Or just rent if you need to.
My son (a CS major) got a job with MS before he graduated (along with several other places). The job salary ranges were from $75,000 to $90,000 to $100,000+ and all required moving away from the home base. He may be moving again after his 3 years at his present position. Don't lock yourself in. Its too early and you have no idea what doors you will open up. Start going to your schools job fairs to sample the possibilities.
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Re: Is the high cost of living in Northern VA/DC worth it?

Post by quantAndHold »

Keep in mind that a summer internship at one of the top companies will pay $6-7k per month, plus housing and transportation, and companies usually end up hiring about 70% of their interns. It's also a great opportunity to network with the other interns.

That web dev job is great, but it wouldn't keep it at the expense of a good internship.
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