How much of your total income are you worth?

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miamivice
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How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by miamivice »

I just did an interesting experiement. I added up the amount that my wife and I have made each year from birth until now, and got a total. Then I took our total net worth, and divided it by the total income that we've made. My number came out to 0.772. In other words, we are currently worth 77% of what we have made over time.

It's a lot like saying that for every 4 dollars we earned, we saved 3 and spent 1. Not quite, because there are company matching funds that helped retirement that aren't included, and we also have done well on our investments.

I'd be curious if anyone else is willing to share their numbers.
ShowMeTheER
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by ShowMeTheER »

I have done this in the past... also found it interesting.

Our number is in the range of 0.67. We are in our mid-30's.
SQRT
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by SQRT »

A little harder to do if you are 65, married twice. However, after the first divorce at age 42 I started again from scratch. So from then I estimate our current net worth is about 200% of total earned income from age 42 till retirement at 56. This would not include dividends and realized gains since retirement nor pension since retirement. Wow if you look at it that way we were super savers. I think our case might not be representative.
an_asker
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by an_asker »

I have not done this - will check it out sometime this weekend.
SQRT wrote:[...]at age 42 I started again from scratch. So from then I estimate our current net worth is about 200% of total earned income from age 42 till retirement at 56. This would not include dividends and realized gains since retirement nor pension since retirement. Wow if you look at it that way we were super savers. I think our case might not be representative.
Wow! Because there is no way you can save 200% of what you made since 2001 (unless you were sharing a financial snapshot of yourself from when you were 56), it appears that you somehow managed to make your money really work for you. Would you mind sharing more information on how you achieved this?

[edited to add]: I missed the part about SQRT being 65. With that added, it makes more sense (and less of an outlier).
Last edited by an_asker on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Inheritance could bring net worth over 100% of earnings.
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an_asker
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by an_asker »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:Inheritance could bring net worth over 100% of earnings.
True, but betting on a stock or two (or winning the real estate lotto) could get the same result as well. Needless to say, if one applies hindsight, there are a lot of scenarios; however, I was being curious because I doubt that the typical boglehead would do something like that (i.e., where luck is a major factor).
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greg24
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by greg24 »

miamivice wrote:Not quite, because there are company matching funds that helped retirement that aren't included
Hey, you earned that money, it should be included.
jasc15
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by jasc15 »

Makes you think about what you are working for when thought of in that way. Total income - savings = what do I have to show for this spent money?

A rough guesstimate, averaging my current salary and my starting salary multiplied by 9.5 years of working gives me 48%. This doesn't include my wife's salary.
bigred77
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by bigred77 »

If you save a boglehead percentage of your income, a few decades of investing are likely to have your networth over 100% of your lifetime earnings.

You really need to control for age in this experiment.
an_asker
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by an_asker »

jasc15 wrote:Makes you think about what you are working for when thought of in that way. Total income - savings = what do I have to show for this spent money?

A rough guesstimate, averaging my current salary and my starting salary multiplied by 9.5 years of working gives me 48%. This doesn't include my wife's salary.
Are you using half of your net worth in the numerator?

I did a back-of-the-envelope estimate and we are in the (low) 40s% as well. And I know exactly why I did not get to the 60% range - did not manage well during the tech crash.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Crimsontide »

Looking at 32 years of earnings, kids raised and out of the house, college educations and weddings paid for we have retained 51% of earnings... Thanks, I now have another metric to add to my spreadsheet :happy
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by jasc15 »

an_asker wrote:Are you using half of your net worth in the numerator?

I did a back-of-the-envelope estimate and we are in the (low) 40s% as well. And I know exactly why I did not get to the 60% range - did not manage well during the tech crash.
I'm using my net worth, and my salary. I didn't include wife's net worth and salary.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Crimsontide »

miamivice wrote:I just did an interesting experiement. I added up the amount that my wife and I have made each year from birth until now, and got a total. Then I took our total net worth, and divided it by the total income that we've made.
Was this gross income or net?
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Aptenodytes
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Aptenodytes »

miamivice wrote: It's a lot like saying that for every 4 dollars we earned, we saved 3 and spent 1.
If you did an additional thought experiment you'd see that can't possibly be right. Take last year's savings and divide it by last year's income. Is it close to 75% or a lot lower?

As others have pointed out, the ratio you are interested in will vary over an investor's life. Consider a simple example of a couple with professional degrees and successful careers. Imagine they have a lot of student loan debt at the beginning of their career, high salaries that keep growing, high savings rates through age 65 and then withdrawals. Their ratio would look something like this over time:
Image
Where it starts and peaks and when it bends will of course vary a lot from family to family, but that a very large percentage of families will have a shape roughly like this seems likely.
letsgobobby
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by letsgobobby »

I have previously proposed a wealth creation efficiency index which takes into account earnings, windfalls such as inheritances, and inflation.

It takes a bit more work to calculate because of the inflation component, but I think is far revealing.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=145796
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by randomguy »

bigred77 wrote:If you save a boglehead percentage of your income, a few decades of investing are likely to have your networth over 100% of your lifetime earnings.

You really need to control for age in this experiment.
All comes down to what you count as income. Is it only salary? 401(k) matches? What about inheritences? SS? LTGC that are realized? Interest? Rental income? And so on.

In the end this is a meaningless number like most of the ones that people come up with. A higher (or lower ) number doesn't tell you anything meaningful.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Alex Frakt »

miamivice wrote:I just did an interesting experiement. I added up the amount that my wife and I have made each year from birth until now, and got a total. Then I took our total net worth, and divided it by the total income that we've made. My number came out to 0.772. In other words, we are currently worth 77% of what we have made over time.
Now redo it in real dollars :-)
ShiftF5
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by ShiftF5 »

That is an interesting metric.

I find W. Bernstein's multiple of residual living expenses to be most indicative of Financial Independence.

Expenses - passive income (SS, pension, SPIA, etc.) = Residual Living Expenses (RLE)

How many RLE do you have?

W. Bernstein suggests:

At age 60 you need 25 RLE min.
At age 65 you need 20 RLE min.
At age 70 you need 17 RLE min.

Measureable, actionable, and useful.

Thank you Bill.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by SQRT »

an_asker wrote:I have not done this - will check it out sometime this weekend.
SQRT wrote:[...]at age 42 I started again from scratch. So from then I estimate our current net worth is about 200% of total earned income from age 42 till retirement at 56. This would not include dividends and realized gains since retirement nor pension since retirement. Wow if you look at it that way we were super savers. I think our case might not be representative.
Wow! Because there is no way you can save 200% of what you made since 2001 (unless you were sharing a financial snapshot of yourself from when you were 56), it appears that you somehow managed to make your money really work for you. Would you mind sharing more information on how you achieved this?

[edited to add]: I missed the part about SQRT being 65. With that added, it makes more sense (and less of an outlier).
A little complicated but the basic story is I borrowed money to buy my employers stock which appreciated quite a bit. When retired paid the loan off. Also, collected employee options which didn't cash out till after retirement. Cash outs were much higher than income imputed on award dates. Worked out very well, am very lucky. Certainly not representative or probably useful.
Last edited by SQRT on Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

About 120%, per spreadsheet calculation.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Gill »

Rough estimate about 150%. And that's after an expensive divorce. It surprises me sometimes when I think about it, but I guess it's from being a good saver and living long enough. I saved my first dollar from a paper route in the 1950's and from a full time job in the 1960's after completing my education. Those dollars have had many years to compound!
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by ShiftF5 »

The ratio used in the 1996 classic "The Millionaire Next Door" is:

"Multiply your age times your realized pretax annual household income from all sources except inheritances. Divide by 10. This, less any inherited wealth, is what your networth should be."

When I bought that book in 1996 I read half of it in my car in the bookstore parking lot before I ever drove home. :D
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by MathWizard »

Aptenodytes wrote:
miamivice wrote: It's a lot like saying that for every 4 dollars we earned, we saved 3 and spent 1.
If you did an additional thought experiment you'd see that can't possibly be right. Take last year's savings and divide it by last year's income. Is it close to 75% or a lot lower?

As others have pointed out, the ratio you are interested in will vary over an investor's life. Consider a simple example of a couple with professional degrees and successful careers. Imagine they have a lot of student loan debt at the beginning of their career, high salaries that keep growing, high savings rates through age 65 and then withdrawals. Their ratio would look something like this over time:
Image
Where it starts and peaks and when it bends will of course vary a lot from family to family, but that a very large percentage of families will have a shape roughly like this seems likely.
I'm also having a hard time understanding the ratios given, especially for those claiming a high percentage at a young age,
and assuming we are talking about index investors, and not stock options or other windfall scenarios.
Without huge savings rates (25%+) over an entire working life and stellar returns, I just don't see how this is possible.

I can see an exception to this due to the transition point in the late 90's (S&P 500 triples in 5 years, not counting dividends) which
could account for a high ratio for people who happened to be near the end of their careers and had accumulated at lot due to a high savings rate at that point, but you would probably be looking at people in their late 70's to 80's now.
poker27
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by poker27 »

Woah, this seems like alot of work. I will stick with watching football this weeknd :beer
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LiveSimple
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by LiveSimple »

ShiftF5 wrote:The ratio used in the 1996 classic "The Millionaire Next Door" is:

"Multiply your age times your realized pretax annual household income from all sources except inheritances. Divide by 10. This, less any inherited wealth, is what your networth should be."

When I bought that book in 1996 I read half of it in my car in the bookstore parking lot before I ever drove home. :D
Seems like this works for us.

Not as the OP, such as 75%.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by SouthernCPA »

randomguy wrote:
All comes down to what you count as income. Is it only salary? 401(k) matches? What about inheritences? SS? LTGC that are realized? Interest? Rental income? And so on.

In the end this is a meaningless number like most of the ones that people come up with. A higher (or lower ) number doesn't tell you anything meaningful.

+1
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by dsmil »

We are at 10% (net worth/pre-tax income) after getting to positive net worth 2 years ago. Going forward, we'll be hovering around 20% on a monthly basis (monthly change in net worth/monthly pre-tax income).
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by JustinTime »

This was aftertax right
miamivice wrote:I just did an interesting experiement. I added up the amount that my wife and I have made each year from birth until now, and got a total. Then I took our total net worth, and divided it by the total income that we've made. My number came out to 0.772. In other words, we are currently worth 77% of what we have made over time.

It's a lot like saying that for every 4 dollars we earned, we saved 3 and spent 1. Not quite, because there are company matching funds that helped retirement that aren't included, and we also have done well on our investments.

I'd be curious if anyone else is willing to share their numbers.
MathWizard
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by MathWizard »

To answer the OP's question:

Back of the envelope: a little over 40% ; we are in our mid 50's.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

1) Net worth ~ 50% of total gross income

2) Gross income from my social security statement.

3) This is after Telecom bubble wipe out 50% of my net worth 10+ years ago.

KlangFool
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by denovo »

Really?
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an_asker
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by an_asker »

MathWizard wrote:
Aptenodytes wrote:
miamivice wrote: It's a lot like saying that for every 4 dollars we earned, we saved 3 and spent 1.
If you did an additional thought experiment you'd see that can't possibly be right. Take last year's savings and divide it by last year's income. Is it close to 75% or a lot lower?[...]
I'm also having a hard time understanding the ratios given, especially for those claiming a high percentage at a young age,
and assuming we are talking about index investors, and not stock options or other windfall scenarios.
Without huge savings rates (25%+) over an entire working life and stellar returns, I just don't see how this is possible.

I can see an exception to this due to the transition point in the late 90's (S&P 500 triples in 5 years, not counting dividends) which
could account for a high ratio for people who happened to be near the end of their careers and had accumulated at lot due to a high savings rate at that point, but you would probably be looking at people in their late 70's to 80's now.
Not that difficult. How about, for example, physicians who went into practice in 2008 with zero net worth, college having been paid by parents. Extremely frugal, put all savings into the stock market. If they saved, say, 40% of their earning (should be pretty easy), it should work out given that the stock market has done pretty well since 2008.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Dale_G »

I added up my gross income as a wage slave from my first real job in 1960 until my retirement in 2001. My present assets (no inheritance) are 1.8 times my gross lifetime wages.

Inflation confuses the issue. On a really dull day in the market, I am likely to gain or lose more than my first year of wages.

None-the-less, I think (assets)/(lifetime earnings) is an interesting metric.

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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by etowers »

Mine is 0.22. I don't know where the 0.78 went as I have nothing to show for it. Illuminating thought exercise.

In my mid-30's. I don't know how those with similar ages with >0.5 did it
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by ks289 »

54%
Decent returns helping to offset hefty tax bite.
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LowER
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by LowER »

An embarassingly teeny fraction, roughly guessed as I have no idea what the actual number is, but I know it's low. School of hard knocks has taught me a lot though! :sharebeer
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by davidsorensen32 »

56%. But what does this say ? I live in a very HCOL with super high taxes and my investments really haven't compounded much.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by 22twain »

Using our total indexed earnings for Social Security, which roughly adjust for inflation, I get a (net worth) / (total earnings) ratio of about 75% for the two of us combined. Omitting inheritances would probably decrease it to maybe 55-60%. We're in our mid 60s.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

.70, age 33. No inheritance or lottery winnings, just living on 25%-50%.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by ClevrChico »

I'm at 100% computed against 70% of lifetime SSA earnings. (Allowing for 30% in federal, state, and payroll tax.)

Investment growth and employer retirement contributions take care of expenses, cool. Maybe I can retire. :-)
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Lazysundays »

Our joint NW is $27,000 ;). My earnings alone so far have been around $850,000. Yeah. Got some catching up to to. On a fun note, we finally stopped having a negative NW two months ago. I started tracking when it was negative 270k.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by goGators »

85% - against 100% Medicare Earnings(from My Social Security site)
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Aptenodytes »

etowers wrote:Mine is 0.22. I don't know where the 0.78 went as I have nothing to show for it. Illuminating thought exercise.

In my mid-30's. I don't know how those with similar ages with >0.5 did it
I suspect it is easiest to get a high number when very young or very old. When you are old you allow for compounding to do its magic. When you are young you allow for ability-to-get-by-on-low-expenses to do its magic. To take a young-age extreme example, when I was in high school I saved almost all my earnings. I suspect there was a time then when my ratio was about .8 or so. When I deposited my very first paycheck the ratio was 1.0. Even if a young person isn't living at his/her parents' home, I think we'd agree that, on average, a 25-year-old will find it easier to save half of a $30,000 paycheck than a 55-year-old would to save half of a $60,000 paycheck. Tolerance for roommates and Ramen declines with age.

These kinds of benchmarks are a distraction at best, and potentially pernicious. What matters is whether you have a sound plan and if you are on track to execute it effectively. Two people with equally sound plans and equally effective execution might have ratios as far apart as -2 and +1. Likewise two people with identical ratios might have plans that are polar opposite in terms of soundness and effectiveness-of-execution.

More important, the focus of our plans, I'd argue, should be the things we have in hand and the things we can control in the present and future. What happened in the past shouldn't cloud our thinking. The ratio in question is heavily influenced by the past, because of the denominator. Sober planning requires looking forward -- kicking yourself for past mistakes or praising yourself for past success can lead you to make bad choices. What assets do you have; what income streams can you tap for savings; what needs do you have; what investment portfolio will work best for you -- those are the questions that concentrate the mind effectively.

All that said, the caveat that "if it works for you, don't let anyone knock it" applies. We are all imperfect humans, not robots. In general we understand our imperfections better than others. The person who read half of The Millionaire Next Door in the bookstore parking lot and paid close attention to age-specific net worth benchmarks sounds like they got a lot of value out of that exercise.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by triceratop »

ShiftF5 wrote:The ratio used in the 1996 classic "The Millionaire Next Door" is:

"Multiply your age times your realized pretax annual household income from all sources except inheritances. Divide by 10. This, less any inherited wealth, is what your networth should be."

When I bought that book in 1996 I read half of it in my car in the bookstore parking lot before I ever drove home. :D
This fails hard for young people. It predicts a quantity more than twice my lifetime-accumulated gross earnings. It leads me to suspect that the formula only works by a form of overfitting.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by ryman554 »

goGators wrote:85% - against 100% Medicare Earnings(from My Social Security site)
~70% against the Medicare earnings. I had to add back in my grad school stipend which didn't show up there, but it's close enough.

43 years old, about 2.1M of earnings, 1.5M NW, but about half of that is in my house. It's an interesting metric which I kind of like, tells me that we've managed to save enough (so far) to account for all consumption except tax. Not sure it's actionable going forward other than to observe we are saving well.

Now if that dastardly tax man can only go away... =)
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by CuppedUp »

0.25. Medicare earnings to liquid. Eye opening and more than mildly depressing.
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by TradingPlaces »

Interesting experiment.

For us, I can tell, that if our earnings are X, then we paid at least 0.3 X in taxes. Last year it was 0.4 X, so there is no way we have 0.6 X (even allowing for growth). Also, we have probably given close to 0.1 X to various extended family.

The single biggest hurdle to our savings are the taxes. We probably pay 3x more in taxes than we spend on ourselves.

I will pull all the 1040s and report back soon. Might be hard to go past 2008, so from 2008 onwards should suffice (earnings were negligible since then).
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Candor »

.55 - 48 years old
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Lancelot
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Lancelot »

I too find this interesting, my net worth is about 88% of my total earned income. I always thought it would be cool to reach 100%, so in my mind I could think "I have the first dollar I ever made" Ha!
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Snowjob
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Re: How much of your total income are you worth?

Post by Snowjob »

Back of the envelope, not counting high-school and college that would be to much digging.

120%
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