Keep paying the mortgage??

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Topic Author
kjvmartin
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Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

Hello -

This thread has run its course for me and I've requested it to be locked and/or closed. Also, I think people skim and end up re-asking a lot of questions!

I received a great deal of helpful information and PMs with some insights that may have very well saved me time & thousands of dollars. As always, this forum is a true blessing and a wonderful resource. I'll hopefully keep in touch about this if I'm able.
Last edited by kjvmartin on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
denovo
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by denovo »

If you default on your mortgage, your credit will be dinged which will hurt you if you want to buy a home in the near-term. The obvious question is if you can afford to stay at your rental while making the mortgage payments. My understanding is that most loan companies won't allow a loan without inspection/apprsisal so surprised this got through.

Is it possible that you can find an attorney who will take this on contingency?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

denovo wrote:If you default on your mortgage, your credit will be dinged which will hurt you if you want to buy a home in the near-term.

Is it possible that you can find an attorney who will take this on contingency?
My credit score doesn't worry me right now.

The attorney didn't give any specifics yet, but it's possible he would do a mixed fee/partial contingent. He said I was looking at several thousand dollars in attorney fees.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Did you not use the services of a licensed attorney? I believe a competent licensed attorney handling the closing for your behalf would have alerted you to obtaining a home inspection before you got the mortgage?
I can't believe the mortgage company failed to do due diligence on the property - usually they go see the home before they will issue it to you. Did you obtain title insurance? Perhaps you have a claim against the title company? As the other poster alluded, if you default on this mortgage you are going to be on the hook if the house becomes a short sale/foreclosure for the difference between the mortgage amount and what it will sell for. For all the damage you are talking about, this could be significant. Your credit is going to be tarnished for a long time. It's water under the bridge - but in general, don't take someone's word for it, don't purchase or even rent things based on "looks", and if you have a question, come here and post it. You'll receive competent unbiased advice.
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Five Scoop
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Five Scoop »

Did the OP have a realtor (buyer's agent)? If so, I would think they would liable to make sure an inspection was done.
denovo
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by denovo »

Kjv, should have said it earlier, but my deepest sympathies.

As a pessimist, I would think of things from the worst scenario and go from there. Would you able to absorb the cost of remedying the home if you had to?

I would definitely see more than two lawyers before making a decision on who to hire. A contingency arrangement better aligns your interests with that of the attorney. If you have any friends who are attorneys, I would ask to see if they know anyone that specializes in real estate. I wouldn't see a generalist for this.

Another thing to think about is whether or not you could even recover from this person if you have a successful judgment. Some counties have searchable property records, but you may want to consider what kind of homestead exemption your state has. A good attorney who is compensated on contingency will have an interest in taking care of these things. A judgment from a deadbeat isn't worth the piece of paper it is written on.

I doubt the seller will take back the home. He was definitely committing fraud from what you describe. You're dealing with an unethical person. I also want to ask something for my personal curiosity. Were you represented by an agent? Didn't they object to you buying a home without an inspection?
Last edited by denovo on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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Last edited by kjvmartin on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
denovo
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by denovo »

Grt2boutdoors, please consider there are 50 states with different rules and customs.
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Did you not use the services of a licensed attorney? I believe a competent licensed attorney handling the closing for your behalf would have alerted you to obtaining a home inspection before you got the mortgage?
In some (many? states) the buyer and seller are represented by an agent and there is an escrow company, along with a title company and the loan company that does due diligence. It's not common for buyers to be represented by legal counsel (in California I can vouch for this)
As the other poster alluded, if you default on this mortgage you are going to be on the hook if the house becomes a short sale/foreclosure for the difference between the mortgage amount and what it will sell for.
NO NO NO. For the umpteenth time, many states in this country are non-recourse states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonrecourse_debt In non-recourse states, the defaulting party is not liable for the difference between the value of the loan and the recovered value by the lender.
and if you have a question, come here and post it. You'll receive competent unbiased advice.
On this we can agree.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Louis Winthorpe III
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

denovo wrote: I doubt the seller will take back the home. He was definitely committing fraud from what you describe.
Can't the sale contract be voided by the seller's fraud?

I wouldn't default on the mortgage. I'd pay it and hope the legal proceedings move relatively quickly. You said the seller was a licensed realtor? Contact the state licensing body and get their license revoked.
The more experienced/expensive one said it's a tough case, but not impossible. The house was sold as-is, but it seems he attempted to conceal/failed to disclose mold. We can try to get the property back in the hands of the seller or seek damages to get the mold remediated.
I'm surprised that such blatant fraud wouldn't amount to an easy case. Buying as-is doesn't excuse fraud.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by ResearchMed »

How much of a down payment did you make?

RM
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Topic Author
kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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Last edited by kjvmartin on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Topic Author
kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

Louis Winthorpe III wrote:
denovo wrote: I doubt the seller will take back the home. He was definitely committing fraud from what you describe.
Can't the sale contract be voided by the seller's fraud?

I wouldn't default on the mortgage. I'd pay it and hope the legal proceedings move relatively quickly. You said the seller was a licensed realtor? Contact the state licensing body and get their license revoked.
The more experienced/expensive one said it's a tough case, but not impossible. The house was sold as-is, but it seems he attempted to conceal/failed to disclose mold. We can try to get the property back in the hands of the seller or seek damages to get the mold remediated.
I'm surprised that such blatant fraud wouldn't amount to an easy case. Buying as-is doesn't excuse fraud.
Hi.. Thanks for all the replies. He definitely failed to disclose, it seems to be fraud
Last edited by kjvmartin on Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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Last edited by kjvmartin on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lafder
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Lafder »

Yes keep paying the mortgage. You do care about your credit, you are just too distracted and emotional to remember that right now!

I am sorry for your stress. This is a great example of why to have an independent inspection before you buy, and you will never make that mistake again. Please know that it is possible an inspection would have missed mold and other items too ! We could start a thread on all of the things that mattered that home inspections missed!

I would advise you to contact a real estate attorney. Contact several more and see if any are more interested. In my different case (regarding an HOA issue), the attorney advised I write a letter myself and send it to the person involved to see how they responded. He said that if a favorable outcome did not come from the letter he could step in and get involved. But he felt there was a chance a letter from me could resolve the situation without upping the ante by involving attorneys. (I would get an attorney's advice on this and not take my word) In my case he was right and I did not need to hire him to write a letter or represent me.

What you need is an independent contractor, possibly even 3, to give you estimates to repair and remediate ALL of the issues the home inspector found in writing. Then send a letter to the realtor/seller advising of the defects and you would like to come to an amicable conclusion to get help.

There is a problem that the house was sold as is. That may get the seller off the hook in some ways.

Also, the seller may have never lived there and may have no knowledge of the issues you described. The seller's workers may have just covered over the issues (I know, unlikely but possible!) and some shoddy work may be from prior to their purchase.

However, the place where you may have significant leverage is that as your realtor the realtor had a professional duty to look out for your best interests and advise you to get an inspection. It was very unprofessional not to insist on an inspection given the inherent conflict of interest as the seller! And her real estate board may take a big interest in this and she may be motivated to make it right to not take a chance of losing her license or even having the issue presented to the board. I would try to resolve this with the realtor first, but the board may be a good ally.

After writing all that, it is clear to me you need an experienced real estate attorney to be involved before you contact your realtor in writing.

But there is good reason to get estimates right away for repairs as well as a mold expert to tell you if the home is safe to live in, before the apartment is filled!

It could be as simple as 3000$ to fix and as awful as 30,000$ or more. Get some real numbers so you have perspective. Just having contractors out will help you know what needs to be done since they may have very different perspective than the home inspector.

As far as not paying the mortgage, no way. Unfortunately if the home has closed, it is yours now. Wait, was it by any chance an owner finance or real estate contract ? That might be different. But do not stop paying until you have the legal opinion since you could lose your deposit if it is a real estate contract and you stop paying.

I realize an appraisal is not as detailed as an inspection, but did the inspection come in at the purchase price.

If a lawyer reviewed your documents, they may have some liability for not telling you to have a home inspection. That attorney may be the one to talk to since you could potentially go after them for professional negligence so they may be motivated to get this resolved in your favor for little to no fee since they may have goofed. (Note they may have just reviewed the legal aspects of the contracts they saw and not be responsible beyond that. But I would talk to them and see what they can do to help. You certainly thought they were looking out for your best interests in this sale!)

Another potential angle is the planning and zoning/building department. Were any permits pulled by the realtor owner or their contractor ? The realtor may rather resolve the issues than get planning and zoning and the county inspector involved of their work without permits and not up to code.

I am so sorry for the stress!

It could be worse !

lafder
Last edited by Lafder on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
denovo
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by denovo »

kjvmartin wrote:
denovo wrote:Kjv, should have said it earlier, but my deepest sympathies.

As a pessimist, I would think of things from the worst scenario and go from there. Would you able to absorb the cost of remedying the home if you had to?

I would definitely see more than two lawyers before making a decision on who to hire. A contingency arrangement better aligns your interests with that of the attorney. If you have any friends who are attorneys, I would ask to see if they know anyone that specializes in real estate. I wouldn't see a generalist for this.

Another thing to think about is whether or not you could even recover from this person if you have a successful judgment. Some counties have searchable property records, but you may want to consider what kind of homestead exemption your state has. A good attorney who is compensated on contingency will have an interest in taking care of these things. A judgment from a deadbeat isn't worth the piece of paper it is written on.

I doubt the seller will take back the home. He was definitely committing fraud from what you describe. You're dealing with an unethical person. I also want to ask for my personal curiosity. Were you represented by an agent? Didn't they object to you buying a home without an inspection?
Thanks for the kind words.

You sound like one attorney I spoke with, expect the worst, be happy if you get anything else! I would probably not be able to absorb the cost of remediation on my own, especially given the other list of issues. I've heard anywhere 20k-50k from some of my contractor acquaintances, but an in-depth review is needed. You're looking a total cost of $210k into a house worth $160k. Sounds terrible!

Regarding recovery: Seller recently bought a very nice house (4000-5000 sq ft) in a very nice suburb and seems to be quite successful based on his vehicles etc. I have his home address from the old property records I pulled online. I Zillowed it. If he won't take it back, we'd have to demand compensation.

I was not represented by an agent, I called the number on the for sale sign, talked to the seller, and he said he would act as both agents to save time and money. He is a broker/Realtor. To quote: "A quick and easy transaction." This seemed rather normal and like a real blessing at the time. I had no idea.
Disclaimer (I am a pessimist) But a lot of people have nice things and are in debt up to their eyeballs. A good attorney or maybe yourself can search in and around the local area and get an idea what he's worth based on the assets he owns and so forth. It is possible he was in turmoil and this was a quick-fix to get out of it. I would definitely speak with more than two attorneys before hiring one. A few things I would consider in the initial review is how much experience the attorney has with these issues and if they'd be willing to do a contingency. I would be weary of attorneys who pretend everything is going to be easy. A responsible attorney will review any documents you provide him or her along with the personal wealth of the other party before agreeing to contingency. That's a good indicator you have someone who knows what he's doing.

Also here's a long-shot to consider. I assume there are some mid to large sized law firms that are in Detroit or its suburbs. If that's near you I would consider going that route. Some of these firms pledge to do a certain number of pro bono hours and may be willing to take the case for free since you're not a wealthy person.


https://www.nalpdirectory.com/

Good luck.
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madbrain
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by madbrain »

kjvmartin wrote: Hi.. Thanks for all the replies. Per the attorney, the trick is proving that the seller himself knew about the mold. He will likely claim as an investor he did not do the work or ever see any mold. Though, the neighbors all report interacting with him numerous times while he was personally doing work on the house.
The other party acted not just as an investor, but also as realtor and seller. There are laws about disclosures that apply to realtors and sellers. Check your state laws.

If the seller did not do the work himself, then he must have contracted it. Have your lawyer ask him to provide the receipts for the work done and get in touch with his contractors - surely they must have been aware as well. Since it seems like the remodel broke many building regulations, he will probably not cooperate, but you need to at least try - through your lawyer.

It would also be useful if you can find out when the seller purchased the property, and what conditions it was in then. There may be records in MLS, old pictures, etc. Also, he may have had the property inspected, and just withheld the report. Maybe call a few local inspection companies to see if they have any record.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by ResearchMed »

madbrain wrote:
kjvmartin wrote: Hi.. Thanks for all the replies. Per the attorney, the trick is proving that the seller himself knew about the mold. He will likely claim as an investor he did not do the work or ever see any mold. Though, the neighbors all report interacting with him numerous times while he was personally doing work on the house.
The other party acted not just as an investor, but also as realtor and seller. There are laws about disclosures that apply to realtors and sellers. Check your state laws.

If the seller did not do the work himself, then he must have contracted it. Have your lawyer ask him to provide the receipts for the work done and get in touch with his contractors - surely they must have been aware as well. Since it seems like the remodel broke many building regulations, he will probably not cooperate, but you need to at least try - through your lawyer.

It would also be useful if you can find out when the seller purchased the property, and what conditions it was in then. There may be records in MLS, old pictures, etc. Also, he may have had the property inspected, and just withheld the report. Maybe call a few local inspection companies to see if they have any record.
Depending upon how much work the "renovations" included, a building permit may have been required.
If so, then there should have been another inspection to demonstrate that the work was done per the permit.
Was a permit required; was that amount of work done?
If so, did the owner/developer/Realtor/Broker get the permit and have the inspections?

RM
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kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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Last edited by kjvmartin on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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dumbbunny
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by dumbbunny »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Did you not use the services of a licensed attorney? I believe a competent licensed attorney handling the closing for your behalf would have alerted you to obtaining a home inspection before you got the mortgage?

I can't believe the mortgage company failed to do due diligence on the property - usually they go see the home before they will issue it to you.
One or the other or both. Good luck.
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Novine
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Novine »

"At no time did the seller/realtor (one and the same), mortgage officer, or attorney advise me on the importance of the inspection or I certainly would have asked for one."

That's because it was your responsibility to get the home inspected before you got yourself on the hook for a mortgage and all of the potential costs of the home. Sorry that this sounds harsh but I'm amazed that someone could get themselves into this kind of situation without doing any research on the basics of purchasing a home. Almost all articles online about buying a home reference getting an inspection as this one does. You "saved" yourself a few hundred dollars on the advice of someone who had a vested interest in you not inspecting the property. Didn't you see the potential conflict-of-interest? Make sure that the attorneys you are consulting work in the real estate field. This smacks of fraud but you need someone who knows the ins-and-outs of real estate law, even if you have to pay extra for that.
chocolatemuffin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by chocolatemuffin »

My situation a few years ago was similar to yours now. In my case, it was because of an un-permitted addition. During the inspection process, my agent brought in a contractor to see how much work it is to fix up the addition and obtain a permit for it. The contractor told me that the addition was mostly up to code and it should be easy to fix. When the contractors started the actual work, he discovered a lot of problems he "didn't notice" before, and it ended up costing us almost as much money to fix up the addition as building it new.

We were really depressed during this process. The contractor was calling us almost every other day to increase the price needed to fix up the addition. At last, we couldn't stand him anymore and decided to bring in a different contractor. While that didn't necessarily reduce the cost, at least the new contractor was professional enough to do a thorough investigation and completed the work roughly on budget and on time.

You have already received a lot of excellent advices. I only want to share a bit on how I handled my situation emotionally:

- First of all, CALM DOWN.
- Collect all the info. Discuss with your wife and the professionals (e.g. lawyer, contractor) to come up with a detail action plan. This should also give you an idea what the worst case scenario could be.

Now, after you've done what you can do, try the best you can to NOT THINK ABOUT it constantly. I know this is hard since you go back to the same house every day, but thinking too much about this problem will make you and your family mad.
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LiveSimple
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by LiveSimple »

OP, calm down, and think what are the real issues.

I am not sure, your statement everything is wrong, is 100% accurate. Or there are impacts to you. In our city, the current code for the basements are to have an escape window. however we are all grandfathered and no need to have an escape window, if we don't do anything to the basement. However if we make changes to the basement and pull a permit, we do need to account for the escape window, to meet the Current code.

We appreciate the merits in he code, but we have lived here safely for years, many families included.

We are not sitting and whinnining that we are not to code, not to code , etc.

Yes code is for safety of us, also do need to access what is the real impact.

The kitchen is wrong, cupboards are wrong height, dishwasher is hooked up wrong, electrical wrong, plumbing wrong, the furnace is sitting directly on the floor in the basement. My private


For example you state that cupboards are not to size as per code, okay does that impact your daily usage. Does the cupboard, can hold what you want to hold, if so why you care of code ?

Not sure if your statement, the furnace is on the floor. Our furnace is always on the floor.
We even replaced, the furnace a year ago to the top of the class efficiency furnace, we had two inspectors electrical and gas. Gas inspection failed, some duct work needed an different alignment.

From what I Hear, take the black model ( home depot to your rescue ) take care the wooden structures if anything do need to taken for. Then sit back and enjoy the home, unless your assessment makes you think you are living in a really dangerous home, when he city inspector has approved the work.


I do not agree with your statement, that attorney, nor mortgage company, nor your agent advised you on the importance of home inspection before you put an offer.
You should have dine your homework , asked friends who own a home, read a book on home buying, talked to city officials, called a mortgage agent, called your insurance company, etc.

At least posted here for help, before you start looking for a house

Stop crying foul, now and start living.
My thought isvnot to counter you, but give a different prespective to look at.


If you are innocent to buy a home, without inspection, I conclude that you may be innocent ( aggravated ? ) in interpreting the new inspection report or anxiety on living in a new home.
Also never bring the convinces of your earlier apartment to the new home, such as now you have to take care of the grass or the leaky pipe.


Wsh you the best and peace !
Invest when you have the money, sell when you need the money, for real life expenses...
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LiveSimple
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by LiveSimple »

Thoughts to consider :

1. Start with why ? Not with how ?
Why you do need to fix the issue, than how to fix the issue.
Your cabinet issue, may fall off, if you ask why to fix the cabinet.

2. As Taylor Larimore states " When experts disagree, it may not matter."
May be the home inspector and the city inspector disagrees on interpretation of the code.
See if you can check with the city, why some of the inspections passed, when your inspector says it is not up to code.
You may have a resource, with the city, if they were at fault.

3. After your "why" assessment, if you wish, share it here for further suggestions.
If you cannot make your case yourself and to this group, how are you going to have a case with a judge ?

At this moment, a dog was left to die, the realtor, investor fixed the home, all are irrelevant.

This is your home, what you want to do to it, what are the safety factors you are missing, are you putting your family in a hazmat situations.
Those are the things that matter most, now.
Invest when you have the money, sell when you need the money, for real life expenses...
cricket49
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by cricket49 »

Some great advice on here and some not so much. Unless you have been in a situation like this you cannot believe the stress it creates. Giving you advice on what you should have done is irrelevant at this stage.

If your house is deemed safe to live in and you can afford to pay the mortgage I would continue to pay it.

Take a breath and get ready for the long haul. You may be overwhelmed with the problems but try to counteract them by focusing on the issues at hand. Take notes with dates and names of everyone you spoke to about the house this includes neighbors, inspectors, lawyers, tradesmen, etc. Document everything. Take pictures and videos of the damage to the house. Prepare as if you are going to court even if it does not come down to that. If you are looking for an attorney keep searching until you find the one who is full of passion and will fight for you. There is one out there.

I have been in a similar situation and nobody and I mean nobody can understand what you are going through unless they have been there. Some of the comments about your situation are totally uncalled for. Life if full of mistakes and everyone has made them. You will come out on the other side but it may take a year or two. We were lucky that our case did not go to court and an insurance policy covered everything. However, at the beginning everyone pointed fingers at everyone else and it looked like we were headed for court.

Also, you and your spouse need to stay as strong as possible to get through this difficult situation. I wish you only the best.
Expect the best. Prepare for the worst.
SimonJester
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by SimonJester »

kjvmartin wrote:
ResearchMed wrote: If so, did the owner/developer/Realtor/Broker get the permit and have the inspections?

RM
As part of my due diligence, I called the city prior to closing. He said they had inspected everything and were very happy with all of his work. There were 2 minor permits still open that he planned to sign off on later that week. There was a final approval sticker sitting on the kitchen counter when we moved in, indicating everything was approved. Now, I don't know what was ever inspected, but *everything* is out of code. The kitchen is wrong, cupboards are wrong height, dishwasher is hooked up wrong, electrical wrong, plumbing wrong, the furnace is sitting directly on the floor in the basement. My private inspector said the city inspector must have been drunk. I am considering calling the city inspector back, but I am worried he would tell *me* that I'm now responsible and cause me more headaches.

i miss my easy, happy, little apartment

Wow, first take a step back, breath, calm down, its not as bad as you think. You hired a home inspector after purchasing the home, his main objective now is to cover his backside as he knows you are looking for problems. So of course he is going to point out every little thing he can. FYI home inspectors are NOT code inspectors!

The fact that you have signed off approved inspections from the city code inspectors says your house IS upto the current adopted city codes (at least assuming they did inspect). The city will have a record of what was inspected and who did the inspection. I would absolutely call the city code inspectors back with your list of "code violations" from the home inspector and have them address each one. You may find that many of the "codes" your home inspector is referring to are not adopted by your city.

Many of us live in houses decades old that are not upto current codes. Does that make then inherently unsafe, no.

I would get quotes to fix / repair the things that really need it, then see if you can address it with the seller (you probably cannot).

Also the whole black mold issue is way over hyped, here is a good article to read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/realestat ... story.html
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Hikes_With_Dogs
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »


Make mortgage payments? Stay or Go? Walk away? Any similar experiences?

The choice to continue to make the mortgage payments is a completely different one than if you want to pursue legal action against the previous owner.
Hikes_With_Dogs
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »

Regarding recovery: Seller recently bought a very nice house (4000-5000 sq ft) in a very nice suburb and seems to be quite successful based on his vehicles etc. I have his home address from the old property records I pulled online. I Zillowed it. If he won't take it back, we'd have to demand compensation.

I was not represented by an agent, I called the number on the for sale sign, talked to the seller, and he said he would act as both agents to save time and money. He is a broker/Realtor. To quote: "A quick and easy transaction." This seemed rather normal and like a real blessing at the time. I had no idea.
He will probably laugh in your face if you demand compensation. I hate to tell you, but you did not do your due diligence. It is not anyone's responsibility to tell you to get an inspection but your own. You failed to take basic precautions and got suckered into a lemon of a house. You signed paperwork that stated 'as is.' I'm no lawyer, but you are up a creek.
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whatusername?
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by whatusername? »

SimonJester wrote:Also the whole black mold issue is way over hyped, here is a good article to read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/realestat ... story.html
Seriously, this is true. Your inspector would have seen mold, but unless he actually sent a sample to have the spores tested he wouldn't know if it's dangerous stachybotrys or not. He would have seen that at some point there has been a moisture/ventilation issue.

I wouldn't worry about remediating the mold until I figured out: (1) where is the moisture coming from and is it still a problem, and (2) what type of mold it is. Get the space dry and if a mycologist finds that it isn't toxic, start cleaning with bleach water (10% solution) and repainting. Sorry you're having these problems, but take a deep breath. It may not be as bad as you think.
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kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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Louis Winthorpe III
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

kjvmartin wrote: The windows do not have window wells and the driveway that the seller poured leads directly to the foundation. He installed a drain pipe in the ground, near the foundation and told me that it was to carry the water away. We dug it up and found it was only 2 feet long. He wanted it to look like he solved the problem.
I know your lawyer said the seller would pretend he didn't know about the problems and wasn't guilty of fraud, but it seems like it should make it pretty easy to show otherwise.
easye418
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by easye418 »

kjvmartin wrote:
whatusername? wrote:
SimonJester wrote:Also the whole black mold issue is way over hyped, here is a good article to read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/realestat ... story.html
Seriously, this is true. Your inspector would have seen mold, but unless he actually sent a sample to have the spores tested he wouldn't know if it's dangerous stachybotrys or not. He would have seen that at some point there has been a moisture/ventilation issue.

I wouldn't worry about remediating the mold until I figured out: (1) where is the moisture coming from and is it still a problem, and (2) what type of mold it is. Get the space dry and if a mycologist finds that it isn't toxic, start cleaning with bleach water (10% solution) and repainting. Sorry you're having these problems, but take a deep breath. It may not be as bad as you think.
From the inspectors report: The new roof was put on to damp/rotting wood. The moisture is coming in along the edges of the roof when it rains due to a long term problem with the gutters/roof and decayed structure. It was not addressed when they replaced the roof. A neighbor told me he found it odd when he was watching the seller replace the roof that he wasn't replacing anything underneath. (Sure wish these neighbors would have been more forthcoming earlier on). This has caused several of the bricks along the front edge of the house to crumble from the back, the water ran down into the house and the inspector pointed out painted over water damage/warping on the inside wall, and then down into the basement along the same wall which has been painted black to cover the mold. The newly installed bathroom/shower fans are also venting directly into the attic. The attic is not properly ventilated. A large part of the front of the house needs to be replaced, and regardless of the severity of the mold, a lot of the wood supporting the roof has rotted. As for the basement floor, it was by all accounts other than the seller severely flooded for a good length of time. The walls are cracked but carefully painted over. The windows do not have window wells and the driveway that the seller poured leads directly to the foundation. He installed a drain pipe in the ground, near the foundation and told me that it was to carry the water away. We dug it up and found it was only 2 feet long. He wanted it to look like he solved the problem.

The inspector took air and mold samples, we'll get the results Friday.
This is a headscratcher for sure.... This guy was a snakeoil salesman and pulled a fast one on you. Not to beat a dead horse, but always get a proper inspection. There are always some dirty sellers out there, who just want to move their property. We put an offer on a property that appraised for $40,000 less than appraise. The guy said he wanted us to do a "under the table" loan in order to make up the gap from the mortgage. Point of the story, Sellers will offer up any insane way to deal their property to you.

Besides pursuing legal action, which is most likely going to be a nightmare, how much would all of the code fixes, mold removal, foundation fix, etc. cost?

These stories are what keep me up at night when thinking about buying a used home...however always have your guy come in and check the place out.

Good luck. :sharebeer
Hikes_With_Dogs wrote:
kjvmartin wrote:

Regarding recovery: Seller recently bought a very nice house (4000-5000 sq ft) in a very nice suburb and seems to be quite successful based on his vehicles etc. I have his home address from the old property records I pulled online. I Zillowed it. If he won't take it back, we'd have to demand compensation.

I was not represented by an agent, I called the number on the for sale sign, talked to the seller, and he said he would act as both agents to save time and money. He is a broker/Realtor. To quote: "A quick and easy transaction." This seemed rather normal and like a real blessing at the time. I had no idea.
He will probably laugh in your face if you demand compensation. I hate to tell you, but you did not do your due diligence. It is not anyone's responsibility to tell you to get an inspection but your own. You failed to take basic precautions and got suckered into a lemon of a house. You signed paperwork that stated 'as is.' I'm no lawyer, but you are up a creek.
Extremely harsh, but the truth hurts sometimes. +1
randomguy
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by randomguy »

Novine wrote:"At no time did the seller/realtor (one and the same), mortgage officer, or attorney advise me on the importance of the inspection or I certainly would have asked for one."

That's because it was your responsibility to get the home inspected before you got yourself on the hook for a mortgage and all of the potential costs of the home. Sorry that this sounds harsh but I'm amazed that someone could get themselves into this kind of situation without doing any research on the basics of purchasing a home. Almost all articles online about buying a home reference getting an inspection as this one does. You "saved" yourself a few hundred dollars on the advice of someone who had a vested interest in you not inspecting the property. Didn't you see the potential conflict-of-interest? Make sure that the attorneys you are consulting work in the real estate field. This smacks of fraud but you need someone who knows the ins-and-outs of real estate law, even if you have to pay extra for that.
I hate to say it, but when you are clueless about a subject, hiring a profession (i.e. a real estate agent) is sometimes worth it. At this point, what is needed is to figure out what is needed to make the house liveable and the cost AND a consultation with a local attorney to see if you have a case against the seller. AFter you get those numbers you can see if defaulting makes sense or not.
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SmileyFace
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by SmileyFace »

kjvmartin,
Sorry to hear about all the trouble - Buying a first home and then running into serious issues must be very difficult.
Your questions "Make mortgage payments? Stay or Go? Walk away? Any similar experiences?" can't really be answered until you have the estimates to remedy the most serious problems. Defaulting on a mortgage is breaking a legal contract you signed and not something you should take lightly. As you mentioned - moving will cost you money; finding another home will cost you time and money (more realtor fees, etc.) - it may be that remedying the issues may not be quite as expensive as you might be thinking especially when you compare it to the costs of defaulting on your mortgage and having to buy or rent another home. Also - legal fees may cost you more than what it might cost to fix some of the issues. When I bought my first home I DID get it inspected but the inspector missed a few things. We did have some roof-rot and a leaking roof - it was coming right through my bedroom ceiling - it had likely been painted over. I was able to find a handy-man to fix these problems far cheaper than the roofer wanted to charge (at the time I was one-year out of college and had "0" savings/emergency funds - put every dollar I had into the down-payment - I initially climbed up on the roof myself and tried to patch things up myself - spent time trying to do this for a month with some left-over shingles and roof-tar before finding the handy-man which I could afford - when the handy man pulled up the roof and replaced the portions of wood that were rotted he told me I was lucky I didn't fall through while laughing at my attempted patch job). With my second home purchase I ended up with termites after a short time. Getting rid of them didn't cost nearly as much as I initially thought. Your problems sound worse than mine were but I can somewhat understand how you must feel. With my first house I was at my wits end as I had no money to apply to fixing any issues.
As far as the sleeze-ball that sold you the home - if you don't go the legal route - you should look into filling an official complaint with the BBB and with the state Licensing Realtor Board (or whatever it is called). In fact - maybe reaching out to the state licensing agency may provide some more advise. Or course its also possible the Realtor wasn't a fraud but was a bit ignorant and hired a contractor to do all the work who was the fraud (Do you know who did all the work?).
Best of luck -would love to hear how you make out.
Cindyjrn
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Cindyjrn »

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation and I wait along with the others for more information. If nothing more, you are providing a valuable service to others by alerting them to the unscrupulous tactics of some sellers.
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kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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Last edited by kjvmartin on Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kjvmartin
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by kjvmartin »

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unclescrooge
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by unclescrooge »

If I was you, I would definitely sue the seller and also make sure he loses his license.

Sounds like he breached his fiduciary duty as your buyers agent and committed outright fraud.

Good luck.
Rupert
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Rupert »

"I assumed by dealing with a licensed Realtor that this was a safe transaction." Yikes. I'm so sorry this happened to you, but, dude, Google is your friend. The seller's agent in a real estate transaction (who in this case was also the seller) has no fiduciary obligation to a home buyer. They cannot make affirmative misstatements to you about the home, but other than that, they owe you nothing. They are salesmen and should not be trusted anymore than any other salesmen you deal with.

Don't stop paying your mortgage. You don't need a bank breathing down your neck right now. (I'm just curious: Who gave you a mortgage without a home inspection, and what did your mortgage broker say to you about an inspection?) Also, if you sue the seller, you need to come to court with clean hands, i.e., you'll look better as a litigant if you've met all your obligations.

Forget about a claim against the title company. They only insure the home's title, not its structural integrity. There's nothing wrong with your home's title (at least you haven't provided any information to suggest any problem with it). So what do you expect the title company to do for you? Title insurance does not equal homeowner's insurance.

From a legal standpoint, you've got some good stuff to work with: First, you've found mold. Usually sellers are required to fill out a mold disclosure statement prior to closing. So you've possibly got an affirmative misstatement of fact by the seller that could support a civil fraud action and get you out of this mess entirely (or at least get the mold out of your basement). A copy of this disclosure form should be in your closing documents. Also, if the seller bought this home in a foreclosure sale, there may be some documentation regarding the mold in his purchase documents. I bet he didn't buy the house without an inspection. These documents can be subpoenaed by your attorney. Second, your seller was also a realtor. Realtors are held to a higher standard than typical sellers with respect to disclosures, etc. That may also help your fraud claim. You may also be able to file a formal complaint with the seller/realtor's licensing board, which will give you some negotiating power.

As for being represented by a big firm pro bono, ugh, that can go either way. Big firms usually throw their pro bono cases onto the desks of their newest, lowliest attorneys. You might get lucky and draw a good one who isn't so busy with her/his paid work that they do a good job. But you could draw an awful, overworked one who views your case as just an additional burden that she/he gets no credit for at the end of the year when bonuses are calculated.
easye418
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by easye418 »

Rupert wrote:"I assumed by dealing with a licensed Realtor that this was a safe transaction." Yikes. I'm so sorry this happened to you, but, dude, Google is your friend. The seller's agent in a real estate transaction (who in this case was also the seller) has no fiduciary obligation to a home buyer. They cannot make affirmative misstatements to you about the home, but other than that, they owe you nothing. They are salesmen and should not be trusted anymore than any other salesmen you deal with.

Don't stop paying your mortgage. You don't need a bank breathing down your neck right now. (I'm just curious: Who gave you a mortgage without a home inspection, and what did your mortgage broker say to you about an inspection?) Also, if you sue the seller, you need to come to court with clean hands, i.e., you'll look better as a litigant if you've met all your obligations.

Forget about a claim against the title company. They only insure the home's title, not its structural integrity. There's nothing wrong with your home's title (at least you haven't provided any information to suggest any problem with it). So what do you expect the title company to do for you? Title insurance does not equal homeowner's insurance.

From a legal standpoint, you've got some good stuff to work with: First, you've found mold. Usually sellers are required to fill out a mold disclosure statement prior to closing. So you've possibly got an affirmative misstatement of fact by the seller that could support a civil fraud action and get you out of this mess entirely (or at least get the mold out of your basement). A copy of this disclosure form should be in your closing documents. Also, if the seller bought this home in a foreclosure sale, there may be some documentation regarding the mold in his purchase documents. I bet he didn't buy the house without an inspection. These documents can be subpoenaed by your attorney. Second, your seller was also a realtor. Realtors are held to a higher standard than typical sellers with respect to disclosures, etc. That may also help your fraud claim. You may also be able to file a formal complaint with the seller/realtor's licensing board, which will give you some negotiating power.

As for being represented by a big firm pro bono, ugh, that can go either way. Big firms usually throw their pro bono cases onto the desks of their newest, lowliest attorneys. You might get lucky and draw a good one who isn't so busy with her/his paid work that they do a good job. But you could draw an awful, overworked one who views your case as just an additional burden that she/he gets no credit for at the end of the year when bonuses are calculated.
Great stuff Rupert. Cheers for the education :sharebeer
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ResearchMed
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by ResearchMed »

Who actually did the work?

The "Agent" was also the owner, correct?

So either the Agent/owner did the work or had some contractors, or he hired someone as a sort of general contractor who had the work done.
Either way, the Agent was the owner, which probably gives a different level of responsibility than if he had just been the Agent for someone *else* who was the owner and had the work done.

We encountered a builder who committed fraud, and when we dug a bit more deeply, we found *many* other complaints, and quite a few lawsuits pending, all for very similar "problems".

If you can find others like your situation, then the attorney may be more likely to go after him, either because of some previous legal work done by others (discovery from previous cases that are on record in the courthouse can be quoted in a new case, at least in the state we were working with - and this saves a lot of time and the costs of depositions/interrogatories, etc.), and also because there may be far more in total damages.

However, YOUR primary concern is your own situation, so don't let that become a drop in some larger bucket.

The attorney will know how to deal with it if there are indeed other similar cases, settled or not.

The nature and number of the "problems" you are uncovering suggests (but doesn't prove) that this might be a pattern.

I am so sorry that you are going through this when a first home should be a nice experience (not trouble free, but generally nice).

RM
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Cindyjrn
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Cindyjrn »

RM makes a good point. If he did this to you, it's likely not the first time he's done it. Maybe a little digging will uncover some previous similar bad acts.
hendiewho
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by hendiewho »

In some states it's illegal for an agent to act as a dual-agent (as he did in your case) while being a principal in the transaction (i.e., the seller or buyer). This may give you a way to void the purchase contract. Regardless, you should hire an attorney (and not the one who helped with your purchase).
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ResearchMed
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by ResearchMed »

hendiewho wrote:In some states it's illegal for an agent to act as a dual-agent (as he did in your case) while being a principal in the transaction (i.e., the seller or buyer). This may give you a way to void the purchase contract. Regardless, you should hire an attorney (and not the one who helped with your purchase).
Yikes, I didn't even think about this.

VERY good point, IF this applies in OP's state.

I never liked the idea of dual agent, as there simply has to be a conflict of interest *somewhere*.
And in particular, a dual agent is guaranteed to get both sides of the commission, so why bother to encourage other buyers, if you've got the full commission locked up?

And how can you [presumably] try to get the highest price/best terms for the seller, while trying to do just about the opposite for the buyer, if you represent both of them?

But when the dual agent is also the owner/seller him/herself?
And there's less chance for the agent then to claim "I didn't know the condition" (even if only because the agent *carefully* didn't ask the owner).

Yes, at least do a quick check for this in your state.
(And even if "allowed", this still might add grounds to any fraud claim later - but check with an attorney, and yes, NOT the one you just used. He/she won't want to appear incompetent the first time 'round.)

RM
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Jozxyqk
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Jozxyqk »

kjvmartin wrote:I'm switching to a more noticeable noticeable color to differentiate OP posts.

First, I appreciate all of the direct advice about getting an inspection first. I was doing what I thought was right based on the professionals I was dealing and can't go back in time.

The best advice I've read here has been to look into a large/corporate legal firm for pro-bono representation. I e-mailed the CEO (didn't know he was the CEO) of one such firm late last night and received a call back today. They're checking our names & addresses for conflicts of interest and will call me back early next week to let me know if it's a go. They think we have a case worth pursuing. If they can take the case, I'll be so happy. Would this generally be better than hiring a private attorney? I'd certainly be glad for the part about it being free, but I want the best possible outcome. It seems having their name on the case would bring a certain gravitas to it! Thoughts from any legal beagles?


If a big law firm wants to represent you pro bono, that would be great, and they will usually do an excellent job.

I sincerely doubt, however, that you have much of a hope of them taking your case for free. That sort of work is usually reserved for charities, people who are actually poverty stricken and in terrible situations, or civil rights type cases (e.g., refugees seeking asylum; family living in car because kicked out by slumlord, first amendment issues, food bank that got scammed, etc.). You're just a regular person who got himself in a crappy place financially and needs an attorney, but does not relish paying the fee. My guess is the big firm will offer representation to you at big firm rates.

Ultimately, however, this type of case does not really need a big firm. It's not complicated. It does not need an army of associates to do research on novel legal issues or super smart specialists to come up with brilliant new theories of law to save you. It is a basic, bread-and-butter type case for a small firm or solo litigator. Any competent real estate litigator will have seen 100 of these cases and should be able to go to town.
UncleBen
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by UncleBen »

I think you could get much better advice if you disclosed your state. Your recourse is likely dependent on your state's requirements for disclosure in a real estate transaction especially/even if you purchased "as is".

Life lesson #1 - Always get a thorough home inspection before buying a home. Do not use the inspector recommended by the seller's agent.
Life lesson #2 - Always knock on several of the neighbors' doors, introduce yourself, chat them up about the neighborhood AND the house BEFORE making an offer.
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

I would move back to your previous home if possible. You don't want to be living in a home with mold, especially with a kid.

This is such blatant fraud that I have a hard time believing there isn't some legal recourse to this. Certainly the seller should lose his real estate license, not that that is going to do much for you. This isn't just finding a few things after the fact, it's intent to deceive.
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DiscoBunny1979
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by DiscoBunny1979 »

In my state it's not illegal for an agent to act as both selling and buying agent, however, it is definitely a conflict of interest because on one hand a selling agent just wants to sell the house and will skirt any questions regarding quality, mold, etc as they are not experts in those fields; and on the other hand, the buying agent does look after the interest of the buyer and will provide names of qualified inspectors or firms to inquire into in regards to mold issues, etc.

One major issue here is the 'as is' sale. An 'as is' sale does not relieve the seller of responsibilities such as concealing things from the buyer. For instance, if there is a huge stump in the backyard that is covered up by a shed that was placed over it, the seller has a duty to inform the new owner about the stump. That's because the stump is something that can't be seen and an inspector going into the backyard to check the stability of the shed might not notice. An inspector is only required to record things that are noticeable. For instance, an inspector might note that the floors in basement are painted black, but might not notice mold. An inspector might not go into an attic if it's not a place that's easily accessible....even if it's part of their job!

What needs to be determined is whether the house is a healthy home or whether it is not livable due to the mold issues. Failure to disclose Mold in some states in an 'as is' sale might not be illegal. For instance, years ago I backed out of a contract to buy a house when mold was discovered and the owner did not want to do anything but paint the walls around the water heater (where the mold was located). What was required was the removal of all the sheet rock.

So, I agree with the prior posts that each item that needs attention should have a quote (or two) from professionals in the field to see exactly how much $$ we're talking about. Depending upon the house, where it's located, how much it cost, it might be better to replace the roof and repair the issues relating to the rotting wood. The most important thing about the house is - foundation and roof. You can't remodel anything inside without a solid non leaking roof. And, if this is your forever home, roofs typically last maybe 15 years, so you will be replacing your roof anyway, at least once in your lifetime.

Before proceeding with complaints to the real estate board or BBB I'd make sure that all the problems are of major expense and that they result in the house being uninhabitable. In CA, my docs or real estate contract has always had me sign off on my not wanting an inspection and the consequences of such. Did the OP sign anything with seller that waives an inspection?
Tamahome
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by Tamahome »

Ask your attorney. Follow his/her advice. These are decisions which could potentially impact your claim, depending on state law.
I'm not a financial professional. Post is info only & not legal advice. No attorney-client relationship exists with reader. Scrutinize my ideas as if you spoke with a guy at a bar. I may be wrong.
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dm200
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Re: Keep paying the mortgage??

Post by dm200 »

I inquired about an inspection and he told me one wasn't necessary, as it would slow the closing and the house is 100% renovated. He told me to save my money. The house has a new roof, windows, kitchen, bathroom, doors, furnace, a/c, attic insulation, and part of the driveway is replaced. The house is one that he flipped from a foreclosure into a beautiful looking home. I assumed by dealing with a llicensed Realtor that this was a safe transaction. The house really does look nice.
Was any of this in writing?
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