Military career or Top MBA

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henry A
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Military career or Top MBA

Post by henry A »

Hello everyone,

I will very soon be facing a decision on whether to continue my career as a military officer or leave the military to attend a top MBA program. I have read stories of other officers online and spoke to my peer group for hours on end about this subject but it has not been an easy one for me.

After scholarships and GI bill benefits, the top MBA program would cost me $10k-$15K a year. This includes food, health insurance and housing. Clearly a significant discount when compared to the $100k-$110k a year price tag.

Currently, I love my job and am very humbled and honored to be serving. I get great satisfaction out of my work and truly feel that I am able to make a difference. However, as I near 30 I am unsure of whether the lifestyle is sustainable. I Am frequently required to leave my wife for short notice temporary duty for a couple weeks at a time and will be deploying again next year for 6 months. I am a very family oriented person and am scared of putting unnecessary stress on my wife and future kids in order to rough out my career until retirement. By the time I am required to decide, I will need 13 more years of service to retire from the military.

Financially, my military retirement package would likely be worth over a million dollars if I were to live to 75 ($44k/yr starting at age 44) This includes yearly pension, cost of living adjustments and healthcare. I have always been relatively smart with my money and contribute yearly to my ROTH, TSP and additional investments. My wife and I have stashed away ~$200k for retirement to date.

Is giving away the security of a military pension worth the risk of attending a top MBA school?

For those of you who have attended a top MBA program or have close experiences with career fields that typically recruit straight from these programs (I banking, consulting, hedge funds, big tech, etc..) what are your thoughts on the options available to graduates? Will I be forced into a life of corporate servitude in order to gain the experiences necessary to climb the ladder? Are there family friendly options for top MBA grads that do not require 80 hour work weeks?

Thanks in advance for any input!
Last edited by henry A on Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
littlejohn309
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by littlejohn309 »

If you don't mind me adding my two cents...transfer to the SELRES and continue your mil career while working on the MBA. I did that in 2006. You can use your Post 911 GI Bill, drill on weekends & two months a year, go to school, maintain the family life, etc... With the current financial strain on the services, you are probably going to have a posting within RCD (its 50 miles right now). You continue to obtain retirement points while you continue to drill in the SELRES. You also stay on the same promotion path. I went SELRES as an O3, and am putting on O4 in a few months. Easily will put on O5 at 21 years.

Many top notch employers will jump over hoops to hire you into management positions with your background and continued service. With your points to date, why loose all of that effort towards retirement!
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patrick013
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by patrick013 »

Nothing in the corporate world is 100% secure. You will always be a
military officer and you will always be an MBA. But, that doesn't mean
your corporate job will last forever. Could last 20 years, could last 4
years.

Companies expand and shrink all the time. So some jobs last 20 years
and other jobs last 4 years due to that in the economy. If your corporate job
lasts 20 years that means your company never lost one of it's biggest
customers, for example, affecting your office's employment needs.

All of my jobs lasted 3-5 years so economic changes can take place, some
good some bad.

A line on a permanent govt. paycheck ? That would be hard to pass up.
age in bonds, buy-and-hold, 10 year business cycle
gwrvmd
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by gwrvmd »

I can't solve your dilemma but would add to what littlejohn309 said.
I joined the National Guard at 17, went on to a professional degree but stayed in the NG for 34 years because I loved it. Joined as a Private, retired as an 06
The enjoyment was I did not serve in a branch that had anything to do with my professional degree.
You can't get a professional degree that has anything to do with Armor, Infantry or Artillery.
If you leave active duty but enjoy the military, join the Reserve or the NG. You have 7 years of retirement points, don't throw them away. Reserve retirement doesn't begin until 60 but I can tell you...it does come

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Geronimobro
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Geronimobro »

This is a tough call, and one that should be made by your family unit (with you as a voting member). In order to make the military lifestyle work, you need the full support of your spouse. Those that don't have it are usually train wrecks at work and wind up with poor professional reputations and a divorce. If you and your spouse are thriving as a team and you think you can handle another 13 years, go for it. Those MBA programs aren't going anywhere, and you can always reconsider in a few years.

I recently made the decision to stick it out for another ten years til retirement rather than jump ship for lucrative job as an airline pilot. Things haven't been this good for major airline guys in a long time, so it was a tough decision to pass up a shot at a job that could double my current pay in the next 10-15 years with half the month off. In the end, a steady and comfortable paycheck combined with an unparalleled retirement program (that's worth a hell of a lot more than 1M if you consider the time value of money) overcame the precarious nature of the airline business world. I'll go fly for them when I'm 42 with a nice safety net in case the business is upended again.
eloshine
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by eloshine »

Former Officer that had to make the same decision as you - at about the same age.

Did multiple deployments, had a blast, loved serving and then came to a startling realization - if I go 10 years, they got me (i.e. why not do another 10 and collect pension). At the same time, got into an elite grad program and changed my life.

2006: Exit and grad school (I can taste freedom again, mind expanding)
2008: Graduated and went into corp banking (awesome, making tons of money)
2009: Financial Crisis and fired, along with half my team (damn, why did I ever leave service??? why?!?)
2010: Furiously networked and got a banking job, not ideal, but paid the bills (barely) and gained tons of experience (this totally sucks, I could've been an O-4 by now and doing cool things)
2013: Jumped to private sector and now making about 2.5x what I would be making as 0-4/0-5 (I totally made the right decision)

Consequently, my best friend who graduated OCS with me, decided to stay in all the way and is about to retire. He's scrambling to find a job and the only leads are military related (i.e. contractor). He's an engineer, advanced degrees and no non-military company will give him time of day. I spent last weekend with them and they were calculating how they can live off their military pension, which is about the same as your's - it wasn't pretty, after calculating college costs, and other small things.

First, if you want to be with your family, don't go into I-Banking or Big Consulting - hours and/or travel will not be easy (vacay days too). Instead, I would look to Corp Banking (hours about 20% less, salary too, but it'll still be good), smaller consulting where they have more of a local/regional presence or in-house corporate. PE and hedge funds are too unstable and if you join the best ones, long hours as well.

Tips: Do not go SELRES/Guard or any reserve - corp America loves military, but you'll have to dedicate weekends and they are not predictable - banking and consulting teams doesn't take too kindly to people that have excuses, of any kind. If you go into Lockheed, etc. type companies, sure, why not.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (career decision).
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Rick Ferri »

Is giving away the security of a military pension worth the risk of attending a top MBA school?
No, but you can do both in the IRR (Individual Ready Reserve). Earn 50 points a year and you're one step closer to retirement benefits at age 60.

Rick Ferri
USMC Reserve Retired (awaiting age 60 for my retirement pay and medical benefits).
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jackholloway
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by jackholloway »

I did not serve, but a substantial number of family and friends have.

My numerous ROTC friends who faced the same choice split about evenly. It looks like the people that followed the money, whichever way it went, were unhappy. (Staying in to follow the money means staying in _just_ for the pensions and bennies, rather than staying in because the duty appeals.) The people that followed a job they loved, on the other hand, were very happy. I have known these people for 20+ years, so I have seen both just after, and long after.

So, if what you want to do is what the military has you doing and will have you doing over the next decade, then you should probably stay in. It is very rewarding, and has a solid financial landing spot. You will need to figure out your post-retirement exit plan - if you do not network and learn what life is like outside, you will face real challenges post retirement, but these are challenges that can be overcome. I know of one person that got a CS masters after military computer work, then landed a job at a top tech company. They might not have given him a second glance just out, but having demonstrated outside skill, he did fine.

If you want to do the job that comes from that MBA, on the other hand, then by all means take advantage of the options that will make it possible. Get the top rated MBA, especially if there are programs to pay for much of it. Again, the money is nice, but you have to be doing it because of what that degree will let you do.
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gunn_show
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by gunn_show »

Go find and read the other recent "should I MBA" thread that popped up last week. My reply will be pretty similar to what I put in there.

An MBA, especially a top tier (Dartmouth, Columbia, Harvard, Yale) is worth a ton but only in context. What else is on your resume? What job experience and how many years? What was your undergrad degree, experience, etc? I know a few friends slanging mad dough from a top 10 MBA, but their resume is rock solid prior to graduating (top finance masters, top consulting experience already). Those that I know from my MBA program, or from better institutions than mine (just a local state school), that don't have kickass jobs, are struggling because the MBA on the resume is their only shining star and nothing else stands out. Those are a dime a dozen and then some, especially on wall street / consulting. At that level you are playing against top level talent for jobs not just just scrubs.

Also, the time factor. As I said in that other thread, if family time is important, the MBA is going to suck a lot of that away, especially the top programs. Classes and studying till late hours, weekends, big group projects, etc. While not making money, as I am reading it you will not be working during this time. I worked full time and did MBA part time at night and almost went insane with the hours required going to class, staying late, studying on weekends, 150-hour capstone projects, on and on.
henry A wrote: Is giving away the security of a military pension worth the risk of attending a top MBA school?


This is the key question and only you can answer that based on your resume, research, and pros and cons of both. Also where do you live, the job market, so many variables we cannot answer for you. And any of the careers you mentioned are 60-80 hour weeks, easy, if you want to make serious money.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by tibbitts »

I don't have any direct experience, but certainly wouldn't feel confident that your job in the military will be secure, or that the current pension terms will necessarily apply to you. So I'd call the security aspects a draw, and decide based on other considerations.

I'm not sure you'll find a lot of extremely successful people in either the military or business that don't sacrifice family life, so instead of considering a top MBA program and presumably the employment that would typically follow, you might consider cruising through a regional M-degree (which you could probably do if you can even get admitted to a top program), and seeking far less demanding - and less well-paying - employment. It seems like that's more of a choice than the top-MBA-and-high-powered-career route vs. the military, if time with the family is really the primary consideration.

I'm not going to do the math, but I think the full pension would be worth way more than one million dollars.
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warner25
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by warner25 »

Here are my thoughts as a fellow military officer with 7-8 years of service:

There are valid reasons to leave the military, but money often isn't one of them. An officer who serves 20 years on active duty and then lives another 40 years in retirement will receive about $5 million (adjusted to 2015 dollars) in basic pay, retirement pay, special pay, allowances, medical care, and educational benefits over his lifetime. That's $250,000 for every year in uniform, taxed at an extremely low effective rate.

Wanting more time with family and less stress may be a valid reason if you can arrange your post-military life accordingly. Like tibbitts said, this probably means sacrificing compensation. Anybody with an MBA taking home $250,000 in the civilian world is probably working very long hours, traveling frequently on business, and handling serious management responsibilities with the accompanying organizational politics. Those civilians probably don't get numerous 4-day weekends or 30 days of vacation either.

So if I leave it will be to pursue something more enjoyable (to me), less stressful, in the geographic location of my choice, knowing that the decision will substantially reduce my income and delay financial independence.

Other related thoughts:

1. Leaving the military could result in dramatically higher earning potential for ones spouse, and this might change the basic financial argument.
2. If you've ever been shot at, you know it's hard to place a value on your sense of physical danger or safety. In the moment, it certainly seems priceless.
3. I agree with eloshine about how difficult it might be to do Guard or Reserve duty while trying to build a career in the private sector. I think ones civilian career choice should drive that decision; many don't seem to be compatible. Plus you'd still end up away from home for training and deployments which defeats your primary reason for leaving.
4. Also, like tibbitts said, there are no guarantees in the military anymore. 30-40% of my year-group will get involuntarily separated before retirement. Last year I worked with an O-4 who got involuntarily separated after 14 years of service...
stan1
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by stan1 »

The grass may not be greener on the other side of the fence. There aren't a whole lot of $100K+/year jobs out there that are 40 hours per week 8 to 5 jobs with infrequent travel. If you did happen to find such a job you'd likely be at the top of the list for layoffs as there would always be many people making less, working harder, and willing to travel.

As for the Top Tier MBA I'd only do it if you are sure you want to take full advantage of it. There's little benefit to getting a Harvard or even UVA/UNC MBA and then going to work for the federal, state, or local government because that's where you can find a 40 hour/week job.

Also make sure you really have thought through what Top Tier is. If the school you have in mind isn't in the top 15-20 of this list it may not open many doors for you outside the local area of the school (and even if it is on this list you'll still need to be work hard to rise to the top of the class -- note that there are over 1800 MBA students at Harvard at any time).
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Phillies2008
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Phillies2008 »

You have a lot of options that have not been mentioned. Depending on your branch of service you can lateral transfer into a designation that allows for a more stable family life and does not deploy. This would satisfy your desire to have a more stable family life in addition to the job security of the military. Additionally, you may be able to get a top tier MBA while on active duty. I have a friend on active duty currently at Kellogg. There are many educational opportunities for active duty service members. At a minimum you could request to go to the Naval Postgraduate School MBA program where you are a full time student, wear a uniform once a week and have three day weekends every week.

If you do get out I would seriously consider the reserves. This will provide you with a fall back option in the event of unforeseen circumstances. Not to mention it will provide your family with healthcare similar to what you currently enjoy as well as a pension. Reserve weekends are not unpredictable. You have a yearly schedule and can typically choose what weekends you want to work. The likelihood of you deploying as a reservist is extremely low. Finally, there is a law that ensures you cannot be discriminated against in the workplace for your reserve duty.

Full Disclosure: I am a Navy O-3 who was faced with an almost identical decision two years ago. I also have a brother who is a reservist.
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henry A
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by henry A »

Thank you all for your replies. I really thrive when I receive feedback from various different views.

To provide a little more insight, I would be attending a Top 10 program (think Dartmouth, Northwestern). I would consider applying to Harvard/Stanford next year if I decide to wait and feel that a Top 3 school is necessary. I am truly interested in Finance and would need the MBA to change careers. I currently have a BS in Computer Science from a well regarded state school. My military experience has allowed me to travel the world, lead from a young age and gain a variety of experiences that I feel would make me marketable to top companies.

I realize that attending a top ranked MBA program would require me to take a relatively time intensive job after graduation. However, during my time in the military I have discovered that there is a large difference between an 80hr work week and a 50-60hr work week. Also, I wouldn't have to (in theory) get shot at or leave family for 6 months at a time.

I am open to considering the guard or reserves as a mechanism for 'hedging' my life/retirement goals.

I have heard lots of various military 'scare tactics', about how you need to stay in for the all-or-nothing 20 year finish line. But as other posters have pointed out, leaving Active Duty at 20 years with little to no private/corporate world experience is hard. I don't see myself getting out of the military at age 44 and doing nothing. I would prefer to be active and working at a job that I enjoy. However, I would foresee various difficulties entering into the financial world as a second career in my mid-40's.

Any other advice regarding MBA opportunities, Guard/Reserve life or deciding whether to stay or leave Active Duty would be much appreciated! Thanks again.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Valuethinker »

henry A wrote:Thank you all for your replies. I really thrive when I receive feedback from various different views.

To provide a little more insight, I would be attending a Top 10 program (think Dartmouth, Northwestern). I would consider applying to Harvard/Stanford next year if I decide to wait and feel that a Top 3 school is necessary. I am truly interested in Finance and would need the MBA to change careers. I currently have a BS in Computer Science from a well regarded state school. My military experience has allowed me to travel the world, lead from a young age and gain a variety of experiences that I feel would make me marketable to top companies.

I realize that attending a top ranked MBA program would require me to take a relatively time intensive job after graduation. However, during my time in the military I have discovered that there is a large difference between an 80hr work week and a 50-60hr work week. Also, I wouldn't have to (in theory) get shot at or leave family for 6 months at a time.

I am open to considering the guard or reserves as a mechanism for 'hedging' my life/retirement goals.

I have heard lots of various military 'scare tactics', about how you need to stay in for the all-or-nothing 20 year finish line. But as other posters have pointed out, leaving Active Duty at 20 years with little to no private/corporate world experience is hard. I don't see myself getting out of the military at age 44 and doing nothing. I would prefer to be active and working at a job that I enjoy. However, I would foresee various difficulties entering into the financial world as a second career in my mid-40's.

Any other advice regarding MBA opportunities, Guard/Reserve life or deciding whether to stay or leave Active Duty would be much appreciated! Thanks again.
You won't get into finance as a new career in your 40s.

Defence contractors, security, logistics (depending on your military experience), Human Resources, headhunting, executive search - yes. Finance (in a front office role)? Not likely. The Managing Directors are in their 30s, why would they hire a 40-something when they can hire a 20-something who will work more hours and be easier to mold (not talk back)?

If you want to be in Finance, the first few years you will work big hours. It's unavoidable. Easier on the buy side than the sell side, but the average buy side fund underperforms (the figures are murkier on the hedge fund side, but roughly the same-- 1/3 hedge funds closes in any given year, as I understand the odds). Investment Banking you will have NO (I repeat NO) life for the first few years.

Consulting maybe the hours are less crazy but the travel is very heavy. Every Sunday night you are on that plane to the client for the week when you are on an engagement, with a lot of all-nighters. However consulting firms seem to be less reflexively abusive of employees than banks-- the nature of the work is very small team oriented and people have to get on-- there is real team work. In finance, that's rarer.

I would say with a CS background, experience as a military officer, top MBA you will have a wide variety of career choices. In the City (Ie London's Wall Street) I have seen a lot of ex military officers do well. Certain kinds of jobs (defence contractors) you will just waltz in, because everybody has a military background and knows your credentials, and because of the need to get a security clearance easily.

(A friend of mine, ex military (infantry) went into the City in equity sales, to quote him "I get to work at 6.30am, I get shouted at, sworn at. It's just like Sandhurst". He eventually moved over to the buy side (as a product salesman/ client rep for an institutional fund manager-- his CEO is ex special forces)).

A top 3 over a top 10? Definitely, if you can swing it. Northwestern or Tuck makes a good safety school, but Harvard/ Stanford definitely open doors-- some companies and CEOs are real Harvard snobs, so you might wind up with a job out of HBS working directly with a CEO for a couple of years before going into an operational/ leadership role.

I would not assume that your job as a military officer is perfectly safe-- given economic and other pressures on governments, and the increased focus on robotic types of warfare (whether that is a good thing in military terms is a very separate discussion), armies in the West are getting smaller not bigger. Promotion slots are getting fewer and at least in the British Army (which is being massively downsized) it is 'up or out' at each promotion round. Iraq/ Afghanistan gave the upper hand to the 'boots on the ground' in the budgeting process, but the cycle has turned and we are back to ever more expensive platforms -- both the F35 and cyberwar are going to suck huge amounts of money.

One danger of staying in the military is you can wind up as basically a government bureaucrat, OK with good pension package, but doing a desk job. That's what has happened to all the boys and girls who signed up to fly planes, and now fly drones-- they are basically going nuts.

I would defer a year, shoot for a top 3 (what's your 3rd? Wharton?). Try to go in with a clear idea of destination other than being cannon fodder at an investment bank. New horizons of possibility will open to you just from meeting your classmates and your business school work.

With Northwestern or Tuck as your safety school and a decent shot at Harvard/ Stanford/ Wharton say that's not a bad next step career plan.

Business Week used to have a B School Forum (don't know if it still does) which was very helpful in this.

EDIT

I should add, one place a lot of ex Sandhurst grads (Sandhurst is the 1 year officer's course everyone must do, so there's no 'West Point' as such ie a 4 year military college) is in Private Client/ Wealth Management. We tend to be pretty sceptical of such types here, but it's a job a lot of them fit easily into-- you have to be well 'mannered' around your clients, and tidy, highly organized about paperwork etc. rather than some 'inspired' fund manager.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Carolinagurl »

Hi, Thank you for your service. You sound like an intelligent young man and our country could certainly use officers of your caliber. I am a military spouse...sacrificed and survived over 20 years of service with the love of my life. My husband is retired and netting a pension of approximately $70-80k. We invested in the TSP and contributed to other tax deferred and taxable accounts. We have substantial savings of 7 figures. I worked part time and raised our kids. My husband obtained his Masters degree through the military at an Ivy League school and passed along his Post 911 GI bill to our children--one is attending a prestigious top 10 school and the other attended a prestigious Virginia university. Our children received matching money through the Yellow Ribbon program.

The military offers a great life and retirement opportunities but if your wife isn't committed to the adventure and you are not happy with the job and lifestyle...no amount of money can buy happiness. Follow your heart and go for it--in whatever path you choose. You WILL find happiness and success. Good luck to you and thank you agin for your bravery and service to our great nation. And please thank your wife for her sacrifice, as well.
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warner25
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by warner25 »

Valuethinker wrote:One danger of staying in the military is you can wind up as basically a government bureaucrat, OK with good pension package, but doing a desk job. That's what has happened to all the boys and girls who signed up to fly planes, and now fly drones-- they are basically going nuts.
After a few brushes with death, this actually starts to sound pretty good. Now that I'm in my late twenties, with a family, and I've been-there-done-that, I am suspect of any peers/superiors who still seem to be enthusiastic about flying and going to combat. The real "danger" is, as you also mentioned, reduced promotion rates coupled with up-or-out and potentially being too old to start a new career.
henry A wrote:I currently have a BS in Computer Science from a well regarded state school.
My BA is in computer science as well, and that (software development) is actually what I'd like to pursue, so I am concerned about age too.
henry A wrote:I don't see myself getting out of the military at age 44 and doing nothing. I would prefer to be active and working at a job that I enjoy.
The important issue is how much money you need from your post-military job. My family lives well on $40,000, so an O-5 pension would be enough by itself (especially combined with two decades of savings from spending so little). Any job I took would be for fun. If you'd still need significant income on top of the pension, then military retirement isn't so enticing; better to leave now and get on the track toward a higher paying career.
Phillies2008 wrote:The likelihood of you deploying as a reservist is extremely low. Finally, there is a law that ensures you cannot be discriminated against in the workplace for your reserve duty.
Either the Navy is very different, or this seems very naive. In the Army, reservists have been abused over the past 10-15 years like contract/temp labor in the corporate world. Many of them deployed nearly as often as the active duty, but they were unemployed in between and will end up earning a fraction of the pay and benefits. That law works well if your employer is the federal or state government, but I think it's ineffective in the private sector. An employer can pass you over or let you go for plenty of "other" reasons.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Valuethinker »

warner25 wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:One danger of staying in the military is you can wind up as basically a government bureaucrat, OK with good pension package, but doing a desk job. That's what has happened to all the boys and girls who signed up to fly planes, and now fly drones-- they are basically going nuts.
After a few brushes with death, this actually starts to sound pretty good. Now that I'm in my late twenties, with a family, and I've been-there-done-that, I am suspect of any peers/superiors who still seem to be enthusiastic about flying and going to combat. The real "danger" is, as you also mentioned, reduced promotion rates coupled with up-or-out and potentially being too old to start a new career.
"Those who have experienced combat never talk about it. Those who have not talk about it all the time". I had a number of relations who were combat veterans (WW1, WW2) and had commanded ships, flown Lancaster bombers over Germany, won the Military Cross crossing a river in Italy under German fire. Spent time in a Bolshevik Prison in Baku (one of the more ill fated British naval adventures). By and large, they seemed to conform to this aphorism.

Some people are addicted to the excitement. Read Neil Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie about John Paul Vann, who went back to Vietnam as a civilian advisor and, in the 1972 Easter Offensive, was basically running the ARVN defence in the Central Highlands. Vann was addicted to that war.

I think that the issue for non combatant officers then becomes whether being a desk pusher in uniform (with all the restrictions on personal freedom that that implies: where you live, what you do, etc.) is superior to working say for the Federal Civil Service or in a big company, where you might do similar work (at potentially a higher salary) and have the benefits of being a civilian.

I think people (at the junior level) derive a lot of gratification from the military's focus on a goal above and beyond the bottom line, and its genuine people orientation, to try to get individuals to be the best that they can be (in the service of a greater goal). There are probably very few jobs where you are entrusted with the total wellbeing of a group of men and women, like that of being a platoon or company commander (or commanding a frigate or other warship). Or leading a fighter squadron on a mission (a more individual job, that see James Salter's The Hunters -- the canonical novel on being a fighter pilot in Korea, Salter has just died).

In other words, in some sense the military (at least at the NCO/ junior officer level) is a "calling" like teaching, nursing, medicine, social work, not just a job. But all organizations are fundamentally political, and at the higher levels you cannot avoid that. The US military is also one of the world's largest bureaucracies.

I did have a relation who could have gone for generalship, had made it to lieutenant-colonel at the right time, done the Ministry of Defence tour etc. -- another relation said of him "he didn't want the politics" (he is financially independent so it wasn't a monetary issue). If you seek higher command, I gather the politics can be as bad as, or worse than, any corporate job (in the sense that the Army, say, has a monopoly on what it does-- you can't join the competitors).
henry A wrote:I currently have a BS in Computer Science from a well regarded state school.
My BA is in computer science as well, and that (software development) is actually what I'd like to pursue, so I am concerned about age too.
If you want to do software development, then you had better get into that field-- I have a friend, ex military, whose skills at leading a small unit are well exemplified by his civilian career as a head of a team of software architects.
henry A wrote:I don't see myself getting out of the military at age 44 and doing nothing. I would prefer to be active and working at a job that I enjoy.
The important issue is how much money you need from your post-military job. My family can live well on $40,000, so an O-5 pension would be enough by itself (especially combined with our savings from two decades of a high savings rate). Any job I took would be for fun. If you'd still need significant income on top of the pension, then military retirement isn't so enticing; better to leave now and get on the track toward a higher paying career.
One thing a friend told me (ex US Artillery, First Gulf War): the divorce rate in the US Army is very high. I assume this has much to do with being yanked around the world at short notice, and living in small towns in very out of the way places in America-- hard for the spouse (unless she is herself an Army brat, and knows the constraints).
Phillies2008 wrote:The likelihood of you deploying as a reservist is extremely low. Finally, there is a law that ensures you cannot be discriminated against in the workplace for your reserve duty.
Either the Navy is very different, or this seems very naive. In the Army, reservists have been abused over the past 10-15 years like contract/temp labor in the corporate world. Many of them deployed nearly as often as the active duty, but they were unemployed in between and will end up earning a fraction of the pay and benefits. That law works well if your employer is the federal or state government, but I think it's ineffective in the private sector. An employer can pass you over or let you go for plenty of "other" reasons.
[/quote]

This is consistent with what I have heard of the US military reserve system. If you work for the govt or perhaps a defence contractor, there is some flex, but generally civilian business doesn't want to know, they just don't want the disruption in their operations and plans.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by eloshine »

henry A wrote:I am truly interested in Finance and would need the MBA to change careers.
Yes, similarly I majored undergrad in non-finance from a well-regarded private university, then went military and sought to go into high finance after. I got my grad degree in a finance related field, but I was too old (30) and did not have the requisite coursework/work experience (internship) to compete with my MBA bretherens, and Analysts/Associates filling up finance positions. This led me to go overseas to work in Europe where people start later in life and where I could gain work experience.

You're doing it correctly - get your MBA in finance, intern on the Street and let it take its course. Btw, there aren't many 30 yr old MD's, not that I've seen. The vast majority of 30yr olds who have dedicated their life to finance since graduating college and getting their MBA are VPs/Executive Directors (one in the same). MDs are typically in their mid-30s, although there are always exceptions. You'll come in as an Associate and move to VP after 3 or 4 years I'm sure.

If you want to try Guard/Reserve during b-school, why not, but I wouldn't exactly plan on this when you start work - nor would I mention it during interviews. They'll respect that you do but concerned that you might be gone on weekends and two weeks out of the year, as well as possible call-ups. But this is your decision.

For finance go into corporate banking. Think infrastructure finance, project finance, growth/working capital. Salary and bonus is very good, but again, less than I-banking, but less hours (think 65 hours per week, average, versus 75-90).
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market timer
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by market timer »

With a computer science undergrad degree and some nice scholarships for grad school, have you considered a career in the tech industry? The finance industry is in decline. There is an oversupply of MBAs with vague career plans.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Maverick3320 »

It looks like most of the factors for the decision between career military and private sector have been covered, as well as the hedges (reserves, National Guard, etc).

Keep this in mind, though, as well: As you are probably aware, the military retirement system is in the process of changing from a 20 year "all or nothing" pension into a blended 401k/TSP option with a reduced pension after 20. If the system changes while you are still in uniform, you would likely have the option to switch to the new system, and take the reduced pension. Depending on the timeline and financial options offered, this may be a good compromise - especially if healthcare costs are potentially factored in.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by opus360 »

Go for MBA. My brother's friend was in the military prior to getting his MBA from a top tier school. During his summer internship, all the top tier consulting and investment banking firms wanted him. He could not decide between the two, so his summer internship was split between a consulting firm and an investment bank. You normally can't do that, but they did for him. The guy did very well and retired in his 40s.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by gunn_show »

market timer wrote:With a computer science undergrad degree and some nice scholarships for grad school, have you considered a career in the tech industry? The finance industry is in decline. There is an oversupply of MBAs with vague career plans.
+1 across the board
a varied finance position in a F500 tech firm (think bay area) would provide the six figure pay and lower-end spectrum of hours vs. consulting/ibanking/wall street
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Rick Ferri »

henry A wrote:Any other advice regarding MBA opportunities, Guard/Reserve life or deciding whether to stay or leave Active Duty would be much appreciated! Thanks again.
You need to look into the IRR. It's a great deal for those of us who do not have a lot of time, but want to stay in the military system. All you need is 50 points per year, either paid or unpaid, to give you a good year for retirement, keep you in line for promotion, and you can go on temporary active duty when you choose pending on availability.

I left active duty after eight years and came into this business, went into a Ready Reserve unit for two years and drilled for pay, decided that was too time consuming given the new career and growing family, so I switched to the IRR and drilled for points the next 10 years. In the IRR, you can do the minimum to get 50 points, or you can do long stays TAD, or anywhere in the middle. I did the middle.

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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Phillies2008 »

warner25 wrote:
Phillies2008 wrote:The likelihood of you deploying as a reservist is extremely low. Finally, there is a law that ensures you cannot be discriminated against in the workplace for your reserve duty.
Either the Navy is very different, or this seems very naive. In the Army, reservists have been abused over the past 10-15 years like contract/temp labor in the corporate world. Many of them deployed nearly as often as the active duty, but they were unemployed in between and will end up earning a fraction of the pay and benefits. That law works well if your employer is the federal or state government, but I think it's ineffective in the private sector. An employer can pass you over or let you go for plenty of "other" reasons.
The Navy is somewhat different in this regard however you must consider the conditions in which the Army/Marines were operating in over the past 10/15 years. Overseas deployments have decreased significantly and the last 10/15 years were an anomaly regarding Reserve/National Guard deployment.

To your opinion on the law's effectiveness:

"USERRA applies to all employers in the United States, regardless of the size of their business. It protects part-time positions, unless the employment is for a brief, non-recurring period and is not expected to last indefinitely or for a significant period. USERRA does not protect independent contractors and others considered to be self-employed." Source: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/fi ... Rights.pdf
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Valuethinker »

gunn_show wrote:
market timer wrote:With a computer science undergrad degree and some nice scholarships for grad school, have you considered a career in the tech industry? The finance industry is in decline. There is an oversupply of MBAs with vague career plans.
+1 across the board
a varied finance position in a F500 tech firm (think bay area) would provide the six figure pay and lower-end spectrum of hours vs. consulting/ibanking/wall street
There is quite a good correlation between the destination of 'elite' college seniors, (and top MBAs) and a subsequent sector downturn.

For example in the 1960s everybody wanted to get into advertising from B School. It was Real Estate in the 1970s. Investment Banking in the late 80s. Consulting in the 90s. Then tech startups and venture capital. Now it is probably Private Equity.

So you want to think a bit contrarian. Maybe working for McKinsey is a great thing to have on your CV (it is, generally) and maybe ditto for Google, but tech is due its next downturn-- social networking cos are overvalued in the pre IPO rounds, there's a lot of money being spent, people are commanding stupid salaries, etc.

Also from what I know of the life of early stage tech companies, I wouldn't count on fewer hours. Maybe nicer working conditions than Wall Street, but not fewer hours (by much).

There is something of a Fintech bubble out there, I am told, however it's a very interesting area-- a slow moving sector ripe for disruptive innovation.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Valuethinker »

opus360 wrote:Go for MBA. My brother's friend was in the military prior to getting his MBA from a top tier school. During his summer internship, all the top tier consulting and investment banking firms wanted him. He could not decide between the two, so his summer internship was split between a consulting firm and an investment bank. You normally can't do that, but they did for him. The guy did very well and retired in his 40s.
The old aphorism of Harvard B School "Mormons, military, McKinsey" - their 3 favourite types of student (Mitt Romney is an HBS alum, and Clay Christensen taught there). See the Philip Delves-Broughton book.

Compared to their peers, those with good military experience tend to have much more experience in leading people and teams (for the same age). Plus the military virtues that there is no 'cannot do' only 'try harder'-- the tendency to get things done, perfectly, on time.

INSEAD is nicknamed 'McKinsead' for the number of consultants taking a break that it attracts.

History requires me here to note that Ulysses S Grant was an indifferent student at West Point, and George B McClellan was top of his class.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by SpecialK22 »

I'd agree that being an IMA is probably your best option to continue service while carrying on a busy personal and professional life, especially as an officer. Even though the regular reserves can be flexible, as an officer a lot more would be expected of you since you would be put in a leadership role. Depending on what career field/service you are in, things are still as busy as ever. Well, perhaps not as busy as during the surge in Iraq.

My understanding of an IMA is that you drill only when it is convenient for you, you're not in charge of people (or very few people), and deployments are largely voluntary. I could have a rosier picture of it than what it really is though.

Edit: Got my acronyms mixed up. :oops: Meant IMA (Individual Mobilization Augmentee) not IRR (Inactive Ready Reserve) in this post. Not sure if that is what Rick meant as well or if he was able to drill for pay/points while in the IRR.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by warner25 »

Phillies2008 wrote:To your opinion on the law's effectiveness:

"USERRA applies to all employers in the United States, regardless of the size of their business. It protects part-time positions, unless the employment is for a brief, non-recurring period and is not expected to last indefinitely or for a significant period. USERRA does not protect independent contractors and others considered to be self-employed." Source: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/fi ... Rights.pdf
That is certainly what the law says, but a quick web search reveals lots of stuff like this, from the president of the National Guard Association testifying before Congress: "...the National Guard Bureau late in 2012 has reported the unemployment rate for the Army National Guard to be greater than 20% - much higher than the national average of 7.8% reported at the end of 2012... California reports that no CA National Guard company or brigade returning from deployment during the last three years has had an unemployment rate less than 50%. Some units returning from deployment in 2012 reported their unemployment rate to be in excess of 60%." So clearly something is not working correctly in terms of enforcement or being able to prove discrimination in the first place.

I do hope that operations slow down now for Guardsmen and Reservists, as you said, but I wonder if we've seen a paradigm shift that goes beyond Afghanistan and Iraq... the active duty force is shrinking, the National Guard now has its own seat on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and senior leaders seem eager to have their folks in the game proving that they are equals with the active duty force.
Rick Ferri wrote:You need to look into the IRR. It's a great deal for those of us who do not have a lot of time, but want to stay in the military system. All you need is 50 points per year, either paid or unpaid, to give you a good year for retirement...
SpecialK22 wrote:My understanding of the IRR is you drill only when it is convenient for you, you're not in charge of people (or very few people), and deployments are all voluntary...
This stuff about IRR is intriguing, and I am definitely going to learn more about it. Sounds almost too good to be true...
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

Your wife's feelings should play a major role. When you find a job you love, that's special, and you shouldn't walk away unless you have very compelling reasons. In general, I wouldn't recommend walking away from a job you love for the uncertain promise of a good post-MBA career. However, your situation is complicated because you love your job but hate the separation from family that comes with it. How does your wife feel about those periods?

I'd say if you love your job and can retire with a pension at 44, stay where you're at, but if the time away from your family is anywhere near a deal-breaker for you or your spouse, then make the jump.
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bertie wooster
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by bertie wooster »

I faced the same decision a decade ago, got out, went into medicine, and haven't looked back. I'm very happy I left but friends of mine who have stayed in are also happy (all of my close friends got out).

Not an easy decision but a lot of the reasons I left were personal. Although I know pretty much zero about an MBA and employment prospects my recommendation would be to leave. The money is better, the personal freedom is greater, and (depending on what you do and where you go) the folks around you are more diverse and free thinking.

Of course, your spouse's input into this decision is critical.

Good Luck!
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by navyasw02 »

I recommend NOT chasing that MBA. I know a lot of guys who have gotten out to get that MBA and I'm certain the salary on the other side is not nearly all its cracked up to be. I dont think I'd be able to find a comparable salary in the civilian world as an O4 in Hawaii with COLA and the tax breaks. Also count in health benefits and retirement and it's a no brainer. MBAs aren't going anywhere, your GI bill will still be there later, and your career interest and personal life will change.

That said, military life is a balancing act as you already know. I've moved 10 times in 13 years and my ex wife constantly struggled to find employment at every move. I work countless hours past "normal working hours" with no compensation. I see guys who dont deserve to bag groceries get promoted to ranks of higher authority. I have to deal with bosses who are abusive just because they can be and I have to deal with jobs that are either great or mind numbingly awful. On the flip side, I've gotten 3 grad degrees out of it that were either free or significantly reduced cost. I have opportunities to do things that nobody else in the world has an opportunity to do, but it's buried in minutia, paperwork, bureaucracy, frustration, and boredom. I do the job because I know that at the end of this journey is unlimited freedom in that retirement check that has been jammed up my butt one nickel at a time and I never have to work for money again. There's tradeoffs and sacrifices, highs and lows, goods and bads, but dont chase salary, chase satisfaction.
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by friar1610 »

Henry A,

I sent you a PM with an option you may want to consider.
Friar1610 | 50-ish/50-ish - a satisficer, not a maximizer
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henry A
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by henry A »

Thanks again for all the replies.

I am lucky that I married a strong, understanding and caring wife. She is behind whichever option I choose.
Valuethinker wrote:In other words, in some sense the military (at least at the NCO/ junior officer level) is a "calling" like teaching, nursing, medicine, social work, not just a job. But all organizations are fundamentally political, and at the higher levels you cannot avoid that. The US military is also one of the world's largest bureaucracies.
Valuethinker- Thanks for your comments. You have hit the nail on the head with this one.

Rick and others, thanks for pointing out the IRR. To be completely honest, I always thought all guard and reserve jobs were the same. The IRR definitely seems like a great option. I'd be interested to hear anyone's IRR stories as well. I looked at my services IRR vacancies today and I didn't see any that required less than 48 Inactive duty training units (I'm assuming 4 points = a weekend) and 14 annual training days. All in all that just looked like traditional guard/reserve. Are there other options available that I'm not seeing?

At this point, I'm also considering staying in an extra year or two to build my B-School resume and see if the DoD decides to change the military retirement plans. Some sort of IRA buyout/match or early retirement payout gate may make the decision for me.

As with most things in life, thanks for helping me realize that this is not a black & white decision. There are lots of grey areas and I'm open to waiting it out for now until I can make the best decision for myself and my family.
Last edited by henry A on Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MP173
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by MP173 »

I am not military nor do I have family or friends...but "A Bright Shining Lie" as mentioned by Valuethinker is an incredible book. In fact it ranks as one of my favorite books (in the top 5).

Fascinating discussion. Best of luck to you and your family. My only advise is keep the wife involved and happy which has been mentioned many times. Not only military but all aspects of your life.

Ed
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bertie wooster
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by bertie wooster »

navyasw02 wrote: I do the job because I know that at the end of this journey is unlimited freedom in that retirement check that has been jammed up my butt one nickel at a time and I never have to work for money again. There's tradeoffs and sacrifices, highs and lows, goods and bads, but dont chase salary, chase satisfaction.
These 2 points seem to be somewhat contradictory. I agree with your point that one should chase satisfaction.
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Rick Ferri
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Re: Military career or Top MBA

Post by Rick Ferri »

henry A wrote: I looked at my services IRR vacancies today and I didn't see any that required less than 48 Inactive duty training units (I'm assuming 4 points = a weekend) and 14 annual training days. All in all that just looked like traditional guard/reserve. Are there other options available that I'm not seeing?
You can get 50 points per year in a number of different ways. I believe you get 15 just for being in the program. Then you' get points for going to weekend/weeknight meetings, taking on-line classes, etc. You don't have to drill over a weekend or go on two weeks TAD per year. That might be what the information you're looking at says, but that's not the complete picture.

Rick
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