Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

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JupiterJones
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by JupiterJones »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
easye418 wrote:Is everyone on this board apart of the 1%ers?
I believe you meant to infer "a part" as in a component of not as "apart" meaning separate from. :wink:
Using a wrong word that winds up being the exact opposite of what you meant is a mistake anyone can make.

Like mixing up "infer" and "imply", for example. :D
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DonCamillo
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by DonCamillo »

In 2000, when I took early retirement from a big Telco, I was making about $100k. Even before I officially retired, I had two choices. Another Telco wanted to hire me as a project manager at a 30% raise plus a chance for substantially increased bonus. This would have been at least 60 hours a week plus 3 hours of daily commuting. A university offered me a teaching position at half my Telco pay. But the position only required 2 to 3 days a week for 30 weeks a year. On an hourly basis, the pay would have been about the same for both jobs, and both had good benefits.

I am really glad I went to the university. I am not eager to retire because 22 weeks off each year gives me time to travel and the other things I would have had to retire to get from the private sector. I am still working, loving my job, and getting great evaluations from students at the age of 70, when I am certain the Telco would have pushed me out the door by 65. I suspect my health is much better because I avoided the long hours, long commute and high stress of the project management job.

My early retirement came with a pension at 55 calculated as though I were 65, so I was under no financial pressure to take the higher paying job.

So yes. I definitely chose work-life balance over extra money. And it was a great decision.
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DonCamillo
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by DonCamillo »

easye418 wrote:Is everyone on this board apart of the 1%ers?

Good lord, you make me feel poor and I'm mid 20's with combined income of mid six figs.
The answer to your question is mostly yes. And you are too. If by mid six figures you mean $500,000, you are in the top 0.02%. If you mean $150,000, you are in the top 0.06%. It only takes an income slightly over $32,000 a year to be in the top 1% of the world by income.

See where you stand at this Web site: http://www.globalrichlist.com/
Les vieillards aiment à donner de bons préceptes, pour se consoler de n'être plus en état de donner de mauvais exemples. | (François, duc de La Rochefoucauld, maxim 93)
easye418
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by easye418 »

DonCamillo wrote:
easye418 wrote:Is everyone on this board apart of the 1%ers?

Good lord, you make me feel poor and I'm mid 20's with combined income of mid six figs.
The answer to your question is mostly yes. And you are too. If by mid six figures you mean $500,000, you are in the top 0.02%. If you mean $150,000, you are in the top 0.06%. It only takes an income slightly over $32,000 a year to be in the top 1% of the world by income.

See where you stand at this Web site: http://www.globalrichlist.com/
Ah yes, you know I never thought more than a second that it could mean $500k, I would not be complaining about that.... mid $100k's.
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vitaflo
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by vitaflo »

I did this. The only upside (if there is one) is the paycheck. And that's only an upside if you stay at your current cost of living and invest the extra money. As you said, the goal would be to get to the finish line faster. If you going to spend the raise, I wouldn't bother. That's a trap.

That said, I am getting closer each day to burning out. I certainly miss my old job (mostly for the people and the process). Was it a good decision in the end? I don't know. My wallet says yes, my mental health says no. Will the fact that I (might) be able to retire 10 years sooner make up for that? I don't know. That's part of the gamble I guess.

One thing's for sure, I never thought about "the finish line" at my old job, even though it was much farther away. Now I think of it often (and I've got a good decade left at least). But nothing says my old job wouldn't have turned out that way eventually as well. Things change, you make due with what you can while you can.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by kithwang »

My parents never made it for graduation (elementary, middle school, high school) when they were working. When they retired they didn't come to my college graduation. Almost 10 years have passed since then and they have missed one event or other. I have tried to get closer to them, but I don't think they even know how to. So I have stopped. I need to focus time on my own kids.

You lead by example, and your kids may choose to earn more money than spend time with you when they are older.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by staythecourse »

EddieJones wrote:Thanks staythecourse.

one clarification - we have 3 kids (family of 5)
My bad and thanks for the correction.

If it is 3 kids I echo one of the above posters in asking how many extra hours are you expected to work in the new job to get the delta of 70k? If it is considerably more and/ or vague and/ or requires evenings and weekend commitments I would still pass.

Also, didn't read the other comments to see if you answered the MOST important starter question which is, "Do you need the extra money?" Are you on track for your financial goals as a family on the current pace you are on with your current job? If so, why even consider the option outside of curiosity or usual "Grass is greener on the other side"?? For example, if you don't NEED the extra money AND will have less time to enjoy said more money in the new job then what is the point? I have always said the worst job is making more money then you need just to have your family enjoy it without you. That doesn't make sense. The idea of money at work is to allow you to spend MORE time away from work. If you already have enough then why do more work? Now if you can make more money PASSIVELY without more work then all the power to you, but as you can imagine that is not so easy to accomplish.

Good luck.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by mikegerard »

I would suggest looking at what the difference in pay means long term and what the sacrifice in hours worked would be.

I ran some scenarios for when my net worth gets to 3M.
Scenario 1 - current savings with no additional annual investments
Scenario 2 - current savings with current 401k and Roth IRA investments.
Scenario 3 - Take scenario 2 and add 20k per year to taxable investments.

With 7% returns the difference between the 3 scenarios for me was only 2 years, and the difference between 2 and 3 was about 6 months. That's a lot of sacrifice to meet some goal 6 months earlier. In fact, it's made me question if I should consider increasing current spending and not worry about the Roth.

I have 3 boys. They grow up very fast so I really value all the quality time I can have with them. You can work hard again in 18 years when the kids are out of the house.

Mike
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by wfrobinette »

EddieJones wrote:All -

A daily reader, once a year poster here. I have an interesting dilemma facing me and would appreciate hearing the Boglehead community's take. I currently have a great job at public company with direct access to executive management, good pay and incredible work-life balance. I was contacted last week by a colleague at another local public company for a job that just opened there. From what I understand, the culture is much more intense, hard driving than my current position.

Current Job
+$180k annually (all-in with base, bonus, RSU)
+great work life balance - can literally come and go as needed
+huge network, direct access to anyone in company
-mature industry with minimal growth
-45 minute commute each way
-future raises are likely 4-6%

Potential Job
+$250k annually (all-in with base, bonus, RSU)
+base is 20% higher than current, bonus is 40% of base vs. 15% of base in current job
+cool industry with big growth
+15 minute commute each way
-less work life balance
-/+need to build new network


The difference right off the bat of 40% is huge. However, I am the sole income earner in a family of 5 (small kids) and the flexibility that comes with my current job is pretty fantastic. We live in a good market in the SW where the COL is relatively decent.

My question is this: Have any bogleheads taken the more money, more work route and regretted it? or vice versa? I know it is a very personal decision but part of me thinks I'm being selfish in thinking I need to make any more than $180k a year. The other part of me says, make as much as you can as fast as you can so you can finish as quickly as possible.

I am open to hard work (come from a blue collar working family) and we are very much a LBOM family. Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I'm on the make as much as fast I can boat but still maintain some flexibility because of my shorter commute (5 min). But I wouldn't take a regular 60+ hr/week job to do it if I would have to give up things at my kids school, sports, etc.

The commute alone gives you an hour back each day to put more time in the office and still maintain the same hours away from home. a 15 minute commute means you can sneak out for an hour or 2 and still get back to office to finish day.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by new2bogle »

I currently am in a position where I make great money but have only a very small chance of upward mobility (and more money). However, my work life balance is fabulous - I come and go as I want, work from home as I want and take vacation as I want. Two - three times a year I have a two week stretch where I work >50 hours per week. Otherwise, it's usually less than 40hrs.

A guaranteed 40% increase in salary is about what it would take to get me to move.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

I once turned down an offer for a promotion, would have been lots more money. However, the promotion required a move to one of MegaCorp's backwater locations. Sometimes when you refuse a promotion, your can derail your career that might have lead to MegaCorp's HQ. Not sure, but then I never aspired to end up at HQ in the first place. Too many politics for my taste.

This backwater location would have traumatized my children, enraged my wife, and would have contributed to so much boredom I probably would have developed a drinking problem.

The "Here" and "There" cultures were just too far apart for me.

Then another time I was called in by a manager who asked me why I didn't apply for a job in her department, she said I would be a perfect fit for the position. I answered her honestly and told her that I observed the workers in her department worked far too many hours, and I just couldn't see myself working the hours. She was actually shocked, but I was being serious.

Over my career I tried my best to offer the fewest hours for the best pay. I generally succeeded, and as a result my children knew their father and I could support them in all the activities with more than just money; I would actually be there to see them play sports, or attend music recitals, or whatever event was going on in their world.

Mind you, I wasn't a slacker. But I did seek out jobs that were more 40 hours oriented than those requiring many more hours.

Truth be told, I loved IT, and would have excelled because of my technical background. But, IT work is often done in "down" times or "off hours" relative to the "normal" company hours. So, no go for me.

I valued my free time very highly. I'm positive I left lots of dollars on the table. But, I put the family first, and would do the same thing today. Zero regrets.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by btenny »

My wife and I both chose life and family over bigger money at different points of our careers. She turned down a big promotion early in her career instead of moving to new job to stay with me and our kids in a low COLA area. Later after our second child was born she tried to quit work but they offered her special part time hours and special working rules so she would stay at her job. She keep up that part time deal until she retired in lieu of bigger money.

Similarly I also turned down a few big job offers from other XYZ big corps that involved moving jobs but me making a lot more money. Each time it also involved us moving to a high COLA area and selling our nice home and having my wife quit her good part time job. And I also was sure in 2 of the cases I would have had a lot more "responsibility" and harder work conditions. I stayed at my job that I had in my twenties until I retired. I made good money but not great but was treated well. I worked hard most of the time but not crazy except for few times per year.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Rodc »

It strikes me as not a clear chose money vs work-life balance.

There is the excitement factor for one thing. It is not merely more pay and more hours and otherwise the same.

Then the reduction in commute. At 15 minutes you might be able to pop out for see a school play for example.

Lots to think about. No clear answer it seems to me.

I will say that when my kids were little I throttled back. Did not require a cut in pay but might have led to fewer promotions.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by JDCarpenter »

Methinks that by asking the question, you reveal that you probably should take the balance. [Over-]generalizing, the folks who wouldn't regret the time away from family probably wouldn't think twice--and it isn't as if you would face economic hardship if sticking with the present job/company.

(I took 15 years off from practicing law to raise our kids; DW laughed at the idea of cutting back her hours. Different personalities, and she was/is the bigger earner. YMMV)
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by vveat »

Is your skill set and hence potential for success just as good at the new job? You are shifting industries or sectors - are skills exactly transferable? If not, that may create some extra risk and pressures on new job, aside from the lack of network.

I moved tracks within the same company - from a high pressure "frontline" job to a very flexible "expert" job. Best decision I made in my life. Aside from the life balance argument which was a huge factor for us to start a family, I also figured out that I may not be able to make it to the highest levels on Old Job (as you grow in our company it takes a real change in skills to succeed and people who don't make it have to leave). While on New Job I am really good at what I do, and not easily replaceable.
- At Old Job I doubled my salary in 5 years. At New Job I am growing 5-9% annually, but at levels than are higher than yours, so really doesn't matter from FI perspective, and we live pretty modestly
- I usually work from home 4 days a week. Even though my husband is a SAHD, somehow juggling the kids schedules and cooking still falls to me, so being at home really helps. Can't beat the commute either :sharebeer
- Hours are still on the long side, yesterday I had 14 hours back to back, today more like 10 since I just stopped working for a bit and took the kids to the library :happy . Flexibility is everything for me and since I have no boss I manage my own time.

Short commute and hours that seem still pretty reasonable make your potential job attractive. I do think you need to figure out the risk - both the skills and the time/effort investment you need to put in to prove yourself.

Personally, if you find your current job still interesting, or if you can figure out a way to reinvent yourself and make it exciting again, I wouldn't jump ship while the kids are little. I watched yesterday my little one learn to ride a bike without training wheels - priceless!
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by cherijoh »

EddieJones wrote:Great advice. Man I love this community.

A few more things about me.
Three kids (5, 3, NB)
$120k in RSUs at current job (vesting $30k annually over four years)
I currently work 40 hrs or so (some busy times where more but some slower times less so avg of 40). I envision the next job to be 50+ avg

I am not one to shy away from hard work but I value time with family and friends a great deal as well.

Does changing companies now (early 30s) provide more options down the road? Part of me says enjoy the balance and focus on personal time because we will be just fine (and feel very fortunate) at this salary level. Part of me says go for the extra cash and a new exciting opportunity - but that may be greed talking.

Again I appreciate all the great advice.
You know how many hours your current job takes, but you can only guestimate the new one. New jobs generally require more time to get up to speed and to make a good impression. So could 50+ inch up towards 60 hrs/week (or require you to work on weekends?). Do you really want to do that with a newborn?

I opted for a separation package vs. a relocation with my previous employer because of a much worse work-life balance. (Most of my colleagues at the location where we moving really disliked the conditions/management). I ended up making ~20% less than my previous salary when I got the new job, but it was definitely worth it to me. I can comfortably live on current salary and still sock money away for retirement.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by BigDave »

I have kind of the opposite problem. I have an incredibly easy job (actually too easy - it doesn't push me to use my skills and is like a paid vacation) in the tech area in the SF Bay area, and make plenty to live on, but for my age and experience am probably between 30k-100k underpaid (it is hard to tell in this crazy job market with it's wild stock and bonuses). I have a net worth of 2 million so while that may not be enough to retire in CA I am still not doing too bad for someone in their mid 40s.

If I were to change jobs (for example: out of annoyance that they haven't kept my pay up with area salary inflation), I would be going from a lazy job where little is expected of me and I can come and go as I please to a world of stress. If I found a great job that was a real blast I would probably enjoy that, but it is a crap shoot. A lot of jobs can change depending on who the bosses are and go to heck in a hurry if a sociopath manager or fellow employee decides they don't like you for whatever reason.

Part of me wants to roll the startup dice to see if I can bump my networth up a few more million so I can retire here since I love it here, but the other part of me if afraid of landing in a world of hurt.

Any comments?
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Crimsontide »

My wife made a video of our daughter way back when she was first learning to talk. On the video she asked DD "where's Daddy?", her response was "daddy work, daddy work". Those were pretty much her first words, "daddy work". Not long after that I decided to cut back on my hours a tad...
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Cheese
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Cheese »

Thinking back on my salary history I wanted to mention the income trend in my current company.

Yr1: $78k
Yr2: $99k
Yr3: $109k
Yr4: $135k
Yr5: $160k
Yr6: $180k

I had five promotions/job changes in the first 6 years. Not sure the future will bring that kind of continued raise % but looking back, I've come a long way in 6 years.

I am considered a high performer and a key player in many processes (that can change quickly, I know).

I am leaning toward staying and possibly working from home one or two days a week to combat the commute (again very flexible work culture).
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by basspond »

We didn't have an issue with changing jobs but decided to make a decision that gave us better life/work balance that was about a 40% reduction in pay and probably even more considering future higher earning potential. Afterwards, we never regretted having less stress or work.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by LadyGeek »

I have "enough" and have been thinking that I'd really like ramp down the work side. Two important tests of this decision came up this week.

First, my MegaEmployer is offering to change the work schedule to a flexible one where you work a little extra each day, but get every other Friday off. It turns out that the management has decided this situation doesn't apply to my department, so no off Fridays for me. I had it at a previous position (same company) and absolutely loved it.

In reality, there's no change in my work schedule. But knowing what I could have had is gnawing at me. :annoyed

Now, an interesting test of fortitude. Normally, you need special permission and have to work at least a few hours in order to even be considered for overtime payment.

My employer is short on resources, so they're paying everybody for overtime. I needed to work a few extra hours earlier in week. Should I take the overtime pay, or leave early as soon as I hit the limit on my regular hours for the week? I'm leaving early.
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Watty
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Watty »

It would be good to do a dummy tax return of just how much more you would make after taxes. Between the high taxes, possible income phase outs, and possibly the AMT you would be clearing a lot less than $70k more in the new job. There will also be some uncertainty in how the new job will work out so that also somewhat offsets the salary increase.
EddieJones wrote: I currently work 40 hrs or so (some busy times where more but some slower times less so avg of 40). I envision the next job to be 50+ avg

I am not one to shy away from hard work but I value time with family and friends a great deal as well.
It sounds like you would also be saving an hour a day on the commute so if you factor that in that is only five hours a week. If you do things around the house like yard maintenance, house cleaning, etc you might be able to to "buy back" some of this time by hiring someone to do some of that house work for you.

The shorter commute would also mean that there would be less chance of getting hurt in a car accident while commuting. You would be saving a couple of hundred hours of driving a year, and if you work there a long time then it would quickly get to be thousands of hours of driving time that you would save. You could also be closer in case you needed to take a kid to the emergency room or something like that.

I don't see the time as being a major factor since if you combine working 50 hours a week with the shorter commute you will have a much shorter work week with the commute than most(or almost all) people working full time jobs.

Two questions I would look at;

Assuming that money or time was not a factor, then how interested would you be in the new position?

Which job will put your career in a better position, if you had to find another job in five or ten years?
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Cheese
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Cheese »

Watty - good questions.

The new job is in an exciting company - huge growth, entrepreneurial spirit but big enough (almost Fortune 500) to have some stability and not be too risky.

I've been told the future is very bright at my current company but that can change in a hurry (sale, change of mgmt etc). I am currently in middle mgmt btw.

If money were no object, the new job and industry would be more exciting. The new role probably beefs up my resume a bit and I think the diversity of multiple companies (as long as you have enough time at each) can prove very valuable.

Now you've got me thinking again. It always seems life brings multiple changes at once (new baby, new job, etc).
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Dandy »

How nice to hear so many responders put such high value on life balance. Didn't quite know where this post would go - investment oriented people might be more inclined on going for the dough or would people who espouse living below your means might be focused on family/life balance.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by EnjoyIt »

EddieJones wrote:Early 30s
3 kids (5, 3, NB)
$250k in 401k / Roth IRA
$450k house with $320k note @ 4%
No other debt

Cryn - your comment resonated with me so much. My wife lost her father recently (at a young age) and going through that is definitely eye opening and gives you a different perspective. At the end of the road I'll look back on my life and cherish the time and experiences so much more than material things or money. Again - once you earn a certain amount any more typically comes at a higher opportunity cost.

My wife is very much supportive of either role (neither has travel) and ultimately wants me to do what I'm most interested in. I would be sure to spell out that it is important to the new company that being home for dinner is a priority and so are family events. If that means I need to be in at 6am then so be it.
Next question we need to know is how much money do you need to pay for college for 3 kids, a couple of future car purchases and still retire early at a withdrawal rate of 4%. I think if you are currently on track to a comfortable early retirement I would highly consider not changing jobs. If the math is not getting you there, then I would strongly consider the higher paying job for financial security.

When I do this type of math for myself I consider the following
5% Real return on investments
4% SWR when I retire
50% of expected social security at 70 while I retire at 55.
Debt free
College cost generally accounted for the kids

These calculations give me a trajectory/goal for the future. If I am off by a little bit then I retire a few years later or a few years earlier. No big deal. But this is my spending and retirement goal guideline.

I hope this helps you think about the financial aspects of the decision and not just the emotional ones that BTW are just as important.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Crow Hunter »

I would actually like to know what everyone is doing that is netting such incredible salaries.

I have a BSME and ~18yrs worth of a mix of Automotive manufacturing/project management and design engineering experience and I am only at $84k/yr salary.

Granted I am in a very LCOL area (West TN) versus say California, but still, a factor of 2 or more?

Sorry if I am hijacking the thread.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by JDCarpenter »

Crow Hunter wrote:I would actually like to know what everyone is doing that is netting such incredible salaries.

I have a BSME and ~18yrs worth of a mix of Automotive manufacturing/project management and design engineering experience and I am only at $84k/yr salary.

Granted I am in a very LCOL area (West TN) versus say California, but still, a factor of 2 or more?

Sorry if I am hijacking the thread.
Take a look at the "Buying in Bay Area (Redux)" thread that is currently active. Be happy for 84K in Tennessee. We don't have to worry about housing prices like this 1154 square foot "gem" that just sold: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Sunnyvale/106 ... ome/652968 (And, as always, remember the HUGE self-selectivity of posters on this forum!)
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Drew777 »

If it were me I think I would stick with your current job. The extra money and shorter commute would be nice, but work life balance is extremely important to me. If you can work from home a couple days a week that's even more incentive to keep the job.

On the other hand, the second job would allow you to retire much earlier, giving you the ultimate work life balance - no work. The question is whether you would be able to make the sacrifice for X number of years in order to retire earlier. Keep in mind you would be trading arguably the most valuable years of your life. You're young and healthy, kids are young, etc.
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Meg77
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Meg77 »

I'd take the new job if I were you I think. But try to connect with some current employees or other team members over there to get some insider details on culture and expectations if you can. It may not be as different as you think - or you may uncover some horror stories that settle the decision.

Reasons to take the new role:

a) It's interesting and exciting to you and you say you'd prefer it if money were no object.
b) It gives you a 20% base salary increase and (probably) higher bonuses.
c) It's 30 minutes closer to your house.
d) It seems as though it would enhance your resume and your network as far as giving you more career options in future.
e) Your wife does not have a preference (I probably should have listed this higher)
f) You've never done anything else (it appears). When in doubt I tend to err on the side of having new experiences.

I was forced out of my first company after 6 years of steady promotions and pay increases. I had a great network and never would have left but I found a more challenging job with a smaller, faster growing company with a MUCH higher salary. Fast forward three years and my job now is actually much easier (with fewer hours, less stress, lower expectations) than my first job was or would be now. So glad for that layoff!

Bottom line: you're young and early in your career yet financially stable - there is no reason to fear the unknown. If you really lean toward staying I would at least take the offer to your manager and get yourself a(nother) pay raise!
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VictoriaF
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by VictoriaF »

JupiterJones wrote:
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
easye418 wrote:Is everyone on this board apart of the 1%ers?
I believe you meant to infer "a part" as in a component of not as "apart" meaning separate from. :wink:
Using a wrong word that winds up being the exact opposite of what you meant is a mistake anyone can make.

Like mixing up "infer" and "imply", for example. :D
When I mis-type ¨not¨ for ¨now¨(or vice versa) it usually reverses the meaning of my statement in a bad way.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by texasdiver »

Assuming you are still in the 28% tax bracket at 250k then your 70k raise will net you 50k per year after taxes, less than that if you have state income tax so perhaps 45k. So basically the new position would net you in the ballpark of an additional 4k per month after taxes. That's not nothing. Do you have some ultimate objective for the money such as earlier financial independence? vacation property? college educations for the kids? or will it just sort of get absorbed into your lifestyle? Something to think about.

In any event, to answer your question I took about a 50% cut in pay 9 years ago to go into teaching. Haven't regretted it one bit. I enjoy teaching HS science and I enjoy the annual cycle of teaching. Last Saturday we just graduated the latest crop and I don't really need to darken the doorway of my classroom again until August 15 unless I actually want to go do something at school. I'll have a couple of day-long in-service training sessions to do over the summer at my choice of time, place, and subject. But mostly I can hang out with my kids, work around the house, and travel. Today we hiked to a local waterfall and they swam all afternoon. Next week we are taking the camper to NM for the week. Later on in the summer we're taking a couple of weeks to leisurely drive to the east coast for a family reunion.

That said, I'm not the primary earner in the family. My wife is a physician and the main reason I gave up my old job was because we were relocating for her residency. Otherwise inertia would have probably kept me in my old career. Luckily my wife's employer is flexible enough that she manages to take off about 7-8 weeks a year which from what I have read here is pretty unusual for a physician. She gets 5 weeks up front, gets 2 more weeks for CME which we always turn into adults-only vacations while the grandparents watch the kids, and she usually buys another week of vacation to bring us up to 8 so she can sort of keep pace with my schedule for the most part. She could earn a lot more but probably not in a position that gives her that much time off and additional flexibility in day to day schedule.

Personally I think once you achieve enough income to finance a comfortable existence and retirement the additional work for additional money thing gets old. Life is too short. Especially when you have young kids.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by harrychan »

I am in your shoes but I have made the decision to go ahead with losing work life balance for extra money. I currently work from home but at a dead end job. The WFH arrangement worked great especially when my kids were young but they are now in elementary school where they are occupied during the day anyways. We decided for my wife to stay home last year and although it was the right decision, we see our finances struggle and not saving as much as we'd like. Hence, I am looking to find a higher paying job with a reasonable commute time.

The only hesitation I would have for you is that your current job has been taking care of you very well. Most companies give 3-5% raises but you seem to be jumping 10-20% on avg. annually! I also think that your less commute time at your potential employer would offset some of the rigor of the new job.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide!
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
Atilla
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Atilla »

I make the work/life decision on a daily basis. Paid completely on commission - 7% of gross revenue of all business signed. :beer
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Cheese
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Cheese »

Really incredible advice in this forum - thank you to everyone whom offered their two cents and then some.

Some of the key points that had a big impact on me:
-kids are only small once and sooner than I know they'll be off doing their own thing, that time is not worth trading for more money
-at some point, the tradeoff of more work for more money becomes futile (given our I am at that point)
-with more money usually comes more responsibility and more stress (and less time)
-the poster who talked about losing their spouse - that one really resonated with me

I sincerely believe I would remain a very focused father and spouse and sacrifice other personal areas (sleep, friends, etc.) to ensure that remained the case. However, after giving it much thought, reading through this board, and long discussions with my wife, I am going to stay put in the current role. Given my track record there and current salary levels/work-life balance, I am not willing to trade that at this point. We are in a good job market that has a lot of opportunities so I may take a look at some point down the road if things change.

Thank you so so much for all the advice - I am so grateful for this community.
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beyou
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by beyou »

I have faced such decisions. Early in life I took the leap, when you need to build
your resume and savings. Later in life you are much more aware of your wants at work
and home, and hopefully have saved enough that you don't HAVE to take the higher paying job.

Also note, I don't believe there are too many "stable" jobs or companies out there anymore.
Slow or no growth today is slow death. Unless you work for the government, not sure I would
lean towards a long commute to a company that has topped out, vs a short commute to something
that could be pretty exciting.

Also when you say you have no flexibility in the new job, I think that's usually only when it's new to you.
Once you establish yourself, you can take advantage of your credibility and short commute, and go
out to see a little league game if you must, then work in the evening after a game (pick your activity).
Might be a period of time, depends on how different the job is and how long it takes you to establish yourself.
Does not mean less hours, a fast growing firm may demand a great deal, but flexibility in what hours you work may come.
ALinLI
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by ALinLI »

I chose work life Balance. Basically turned down a promotion at MegaCorp from VP to Director I work in IT Management. I make about $160k total comp enough to live comfortably family of 4. No thanks already work enough home by like 7pm, for an extra $20k or something like that at Director more responsibility, more projects, more staff = more stress. Not worth it for me. As others said time becomes very valuable as you have less of it , i prefer to spend time on hobbies like working out, playing volleyball , biking and hanging with my wife and 2 boys to accomplishing more company projects. To each his own. Will this choice work out for my career? The answer will only become obvious in hindsight since rejecting the promotion might have all kinds of negative consequence so might taking the promo so need to make a best guess choice based on info at this point.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by jbird11 »

My personal opinion, is that you need to make as much as you possibly can--- while still being home for dinner every night, and on the sideline for every soccer game, and at every band concert.

Time is one of the few commodities that is irreplaceable.

With 3 small kids at home, I think you know the answer to your own question.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by FredL »

This is just like whether you want to retire early like Money Mustash or keep working into 80s like Warren Buffet. If you are young and live paycheck to paycheck you have no choice for extra money. Just look at oil industry, two years ago it was really hot, earn a lot of money, today, a lot of people lost their jobs. Don't forget, we are in disruptive economy stage today. Some very secure jobs may no longer secure any more. If you are older and have enough saving, work life balance is no doubt more important. The purpose of earn money is to have satisfying life.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by jodydavis »

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but is there any way to get the best of both worlds, i.e. use the new offer to negotiate an increase in your existing salary? Obviously this depends on the culture of your current firm, and may not be looked on favorably at some firms. But if they know you are in demand, they might pay you somewhat more to keep you. Just a thought.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Negotiating a counter-offer is a bad move, as you have shown disloyalty to the company. They'll keep you around long enough until they get a replacement. Search the forum, you'll find a number of threads on the topic.
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Rob54keep
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Rob54keep »

I kinda did this. I moved from stable company, good income, 30 min commute to another city that was closer to my daughter with a 15 min commute, much better pay but aggressive and faster moving environment.

The decision was based on many factors and not just money. However the added salary, bonus, RSU etc. helped me retire 5 years sooner than taking the safer route and staying with my stable job. I did have to move but the new company paid it all.

Also I wanted to take on additional challenges before I retired. I didn't want to look back some day and say to myself...I played it too safe. However I took this additional risk without any children in the household. Also I wanted to move to the new location anyways so it worked well.

Looking back now....it was the best move I made.
nate bricks
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by nate bricks »

Your situation reminds me of Andrew Tobias's spin-off on Ben Franklin's advice: "a penny saved is 2 pennies earned".

I'm not surprised the top hit on Google for this quote is another Boglehead post...
viewtopic.php?t=91000

Others have alluded to this raise being devalued after taxes, but every penny above $180k is likely to be taxed very close to 50% all said and done. Unless you have a patriotic agenda with the IRS I'd take the work life balance on principal.

In my experience, and those close to me, the thought process of "Get in, earn a bunch of money and get out" has presented as innocuous but in practice has been life altering. In an extreme example a friend moved overseas to make a lot of money tax free which he planned to use to start a brewery back in the U.S. He's become something of a permanent ex-pat at this point and has given up on the idea of a brewery which to be fair has proven to be a bit of a fad. I rarely see him any more, and he always tries to reach out at bizarre hours. He's suffered through tremendous personal hardship living apart from close friends and family. There's a lot going on there, but the basic point stands - He thought chasing the money for a time wouldn't change him but it did in a big way.

Likewise my wife went through Dental school. I had my doubts about whether it was the right career for her introverted personality, but she also insisted that if she just put her head down and got through she'd be in a great position to earn a lot of money and still pursue her passions of music and backpacking. In this case it has turned out a bit how she expected. We still backpack and travel, but music is not the same for her. Playing violin is just a sad reminder of how much work she would have to do to return to her proper form. It took her years to regain her identity after school. She battled with choosing a high paying stressful job with long hours to earn "what she was worth". I listened to her bitterly complain every night after work for years until I helped convince her to take a 40% paycut to get back to living.

Lastly I love my job at the moment. I don't make nearly as much as you. $70k at the moment, but I'm entering into a position to up my salary to $100k+, and I'm losing steam. I just worked a 16 hour day, and I'm getting ready to shower up and work both days this weekend for a deadline tonight and tomorrow night. Generally I love the work, but it's becoming a "tiger by the tail" situation that someone mentioned above. I have a latent aortic condition and I often think about how sickening it would be to die at my office having missed the summer backpacking season. Some improvement may be attributable to better work habits and planning, but at some point I just want more time with the people who will miss me if I die.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I guess I'm late to this party and you've already made up your mind, but my vote essentially agrees with what Meg77 said. We have usually voted for life (I became a SAHD, my wife passed on some overseas opportunities that would have been disruptive), but frankly it sounds like the new job would give you a chance to work with more energetic folks and save a few hours per week commuting. There is a psychological difference between a 15 minute commute and a 45 minute commute that goes beyond the computed time. Creating a new network can be invigorating.

My wife just took a new job rather than retiring or staying where she was. There was a nice bump in pay, but that wasn't the motivation. She wanted to work with a new set of people on problems she hadn't solved before in a culture she wasn't familiar with. I count that as life, but our kids are older so she isn't missing many "firsts."

Good luck.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by zombie_lawyer »

I chose money over work-life balance. Since I graduated 6 years ago, I've been working 70-110 hour weeks, without nights, weekends or holidays ever being safe. I'm young (31) and single, am making great money ($340k/year), am gaining great experience and opening countless doors for myself, and still have the energy to manage the long hours.

However, I worry every day that I've made the wrong decision by going down this road, and continuing to stick to it. Although by saving so much at a relatively young age, I may be able to take it easy later in life, and retire earlier, I don't know whether it will have been worth it. The impact of working so much may have negative long term effects on my mental/physical health and social relationships. While most of my friends with "normal" jobs are enjoying their lives and starting families, I hardly have time for a social life, never mind even having time to date. I really hope that I'm not wasting my life, and that it will pay off in the long run.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by Cheese »

Nate bricks - that was a great post with wonderful perspective.

Somebody mentioned going back to my current employer with a higher offer. Although I first considered that, I don't think that will serve me (or most that take that route) well in the long run. I'd love to have the best of both worlds and make more and still have great flexibility but you don't always get everything in a job.

Another concern of mine when the process started (remember I was not in the market) was once you open the door to considering another place of employment, can you ever close that door? Or do you start wondering and peeking behind other doors to see what shade the grass is elsewhere? I've been telling myself I will not but time will tell - if nothing else, at times, it will be somewhat of a psychological battle I'm sure.

Great discussion here - this forum is incredible.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by snowshoes »

zombie_lawyer wrote: However, I worry every day that I've made the wrong decision by going down this road, and continuing to stick to it. Although by saving so much at a relatively young age, I may be able to take it easy later in life, and retire earlier, I don't know whether it will have been worth it. The impact of working so much may have negative long term effects on my mental/physical health and social relationships. While most of my friends with "normal" jobs are enjoying their lives and starting families, I hardly have time for a social life, never mind even having time to date. I really hope that I'm not wasting my life, and that it will pay off in the long run.
Your not required to be a clone, unless you believe so. I'd suspect your doing what you want working toward financial Independence. Good Luck!
Last edited by snowshoes on Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
protagonist
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by protagonist »

Despite the fact that I really liked my work, I always chose "work-life balance" over more money. I retired at 55, and I have no regrets. I could be a lot richer if I chose a different path, but I always chose to work on my own terms and live where I wanted to live. Admittedly not everybody has this option, but my career allowed me to do it, albeit with some risk (too much risk for many of my colleagues). I lived life to the fullest and now have enough money for a comfortable enough retirement on my own terms. That is enough for me. I would never sacrifice my youth for it.

I think a happy life requires balance between work, family, friends, hobbies, etc, and stress is the enemy of joy, so if you don't have to work at an unrewarding and stressful job, you shouldn't.

Life is for the living and , as trite as it may sound, you never know when your time is up.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by pinecone »

To EddieJones: One of the benefits of the new job you mention is the shorter commute. Is there a reason you don't live closer to your current job?

I chose life balance over money, and I definitely don't regret it. My job pays enough for me that I don't feel the need for more money if it means more stress and less free time. I value experiences with friends and family more than I value stuff, which just takes up space. I enjoy the work I do and the people I work with. My job has unbelievable benefits and vacation time.

Retirement is less than 10 years away, but I'm not counting down the days. I enjoy my work, and I enjoy my free time even more. There's no guarantee I'll live another ten years, but for now I am enjoying each day as it comes. From my very first job as a teen, I followed the good advice to "pay myself first" and save for retirement, so that's taken care of.

I have many friends who chased the money, and their lives didn't turn out that much better than mine, and in some cases worse. They might love their bigger house, but I am happier having my same spouse. :happy
aj44
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by aj44 »

I just made a similar decision, I decided to get back into management at a company 10 minutes from my house, my previous commute was 50 minutes. I will have to work more hours and will have more responsibility but the extra 50k and 80 minutes a day off the commute makes it worth it for me. We don't need the extra money, it will be added to the taxable account.

That was always the key for me to get back to management, it had to be a very short commute.
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Re: Advice Needed - Has Anyone Chosen Work Life Balance over Extra Money?

Post by EnjoyIt »

I have to admit that a 15 minute commute compared to 45 minutes is an amazing benefit you don't realize. It is indeed much more valuable than just the hour you save round trip. I currently commute about 15 minutes but once or twice a month I need to do a 45 minute commute to a different site. I tend to spend a lot less time at the remote site compared to my main place of employment. But the extra 60 minute commute just drains the life out of me. Especially on the return trip home.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
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