House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

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Savvy
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House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

Hi Bogleheads - hopefully you can offer some good insight. Sorry for the long story.

We live in a regular neighborhood (all houses), lots of families, low crime, etc. Not a hot market but not a down market either.

The house next door has a big realtor "For Sale" sign out front through a reputable realtor agency. The name on the sign (the selling realtor) is the same as the owner of the house. Let's call him Mike. Mike owns this house but has rented it out to a string of fairly sketchy renters over the last few years. He posted this sign out front a year ago but the house never showed up on MLS or other online sites. Ultimately, he ended up getting another family of renters. This family is currently getting evicted. So now the sign is out front again, but again the house is not listed anywhere online.

I left a message to inquire about this but he doesn't call me back. My friend is interested in buying the house but Mike has avoided showing my friend the house. My realtor called him on April 1 to ask if the house is for sale since the sign had been out front for a few weeks. Mike said it would be up for sale in a couple of weeks. My realtor called again on May 1 and Mike said the renters were moving out at the end of May and then it would be for sale.

Separately, another neighbor friend asked him to take the sign down. He said that although he is not listing it on MLS, he is honoring written offers to anyone that makes one so therefore Mike doesn't think he needs to take the sign down. Obviously, we just want someone to buy that house that cares about the neighborhood rather than continuing to see renters move in that we do not feel very safe around.

Our neighbor has contacted his real estate agency to file a complaint. We feel that he is definitely being shady/unethical but not sure if there is anything we can do about it.

If he wants to rent it, fine. He should tell us he wants to rent it. If he wants to sell it, fine. He should tell us he wants to sell it. We think he is trying to offer contract-to-deed type things with renters but I am not sure how this is being executed on his end.

Thoughts/Ideas/Suggestions??

Thanks all!
Savvy
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

Well, that's bizarre.

However, I was interested in buying the house my grandmother grew up in. There was a for sale sign out in front for months, but my realtor never was able to make arrangements with the selling realtor for me to see the house. There was always some excuse or last minute cancellation. Finally I looked up the (out of state) owner's contact info from the property tax database, and they were (apparently) stunned that their realtor was ignoring interest. However, no one ever got back to me, so my mild interest evaporated.

The house did eventually sell a year or two later. I have no idea what was going on.
lsufan1971
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by lsufan1971 »

Is he violating any provision(s) in your HOA? If not there isn't much you can do.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by niceguy7376 »

I dont know what he is trying to achieve by advertising it as for sale but renting it out. So what exactly does the sign bring him
I would do most of the following:

1. Let his broker company know about this
2. Check with HOA to see if anything can be done
3. Have your friend send a written offer through his agent and see what he says
randomguy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by randomguy »

Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house? What do you think is unethical? It just seems like a crappy business practice. The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to do something to cut out his agency but that seems like a very high risk type move.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by hand »

If your goal is to eliminate the for sale sign, engage a sales agent from his brokerage and request a showing.
When the showing is not offered, the sales agent should be motivated to complain to the broker.

If the goal is to buy the house, submit a written offer to the seller.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by terran »

Could it be that he just wants to have his sign out for those driving by as an advertisement for his real estate services? Obviously kind of backfiring if he wants people in the neighborhood to hire him, but maybe that's what he's thinking?
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Carefreeap »

Sounds like he's advertising for principals only and doesn't want any real estate agents involved which is why it's not in the MLS. If he's the owner, that's not illegal or unethical.

He may be advertising as a "Rent to Own"/Lease Option deal. Most of those don't work out as people are unable to build back their credit or save up for a down payment as they hoped.
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ResearchMed
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by ResearchMed »

randomguy wrote:Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house? What do you think is unethical? It just seems like a crappy business practice. The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to do something to cut out his agency but that seems like a very high risk type move.
Is the place zoned for rentals or might there be some other potential violation?

We encountered something like this a few decades ago.

Short version was that the owner of a 3-family claimed to "owner occupy" it, so it was not subject to rent control.
The town decided he really lived in another town, so he put the place up for sale.

I went to look and made an offer.
Nothing. No response, not counter offer, nothing back to our agent.
When we complained, the "for sale" listing came down.

Several weeks later, it was back up.

Back I went, and looked more carefully.
In the "owner's" unit, there were a few clothes in one closet.
Not even a mattress on the floor.

Made another full price offer, offer was accepted, I had a contractor in to get proper estimates to gut rehab (as I had just done on another property), and... when we tried to get the P&S done.... again... nothing... it all just expired.

And the "for sale" was removed, again.

I watched this happen on and off over quite a long period of time, and assume it was his way of keeping the other two 2 units rented at very high rents (which the location did warrant, which is why I wanted to buy it :wink: ).
It was far more than 3x the rent-controlled amount.

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littlebird
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by littlebird »

I know there's a tax reason for a landlord who now wants to sell his rental property to also advertise it for rent (as well as for sale). This is so that if it does not sell and he has to rent it out again, all his expenses during the "empty" period will be deductible since he was "holding it for rental".

Since the seller in your case is a real estate professional, and special rules apply to them, possibly holding it out for sale is a similar type of tax dodge. I'm too lazy to look it up.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by livesoft »

randomguy wrote:Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house? What do you think is unethical? It just seems like a crappy business practice. The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to do something to cut out his agency but that seems like a very high risk type move.
It is easy to explain the sign: If he is trying to get renters, then the sign clearly marks which house is his when he tells people to meet him or drive by for a look-see or walk-through.

Would you rather he had a FSBO sign up? Or a For Rent sign?

Anyways, it's a free country, I think he can do what he wants. And that includes waiting for an offer that he cannot refuse.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by kolea »

randomguy wrote:Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house?
Taxes. If he were to sell it he could claim that is was a residence as long as he was trying to sell it while it was rented. That way he gets the residence exemption for capital gains in selling a house. If it is a pure rental he cannot claim the exemption. My CPA told us about this exception when we asked about a situation we have with renting a second home. That is my guess.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by jfn111 »

I would give the agency a call and ask them why their sign is in front of a house that isn't listed in MLS?
Fixmen
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Fixmen »

TwoByFour wrote:
randomguy wrote:Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house?
Taxes. If he were to sell it he could claim that is was a residence as long as he was trying to sell it while it was rented. That way he gets the residence exemption for capital gains in selling a house. If it is a pure rental he cannot claim the exemption. My CPA told us about this exception when we asked about a situation we have with renting a second home. That is my guess.
Don't you usually have to live in a house for 1 year in order to switch it from a rental to a residence in the eyes of the IRS? I may be wrong about. I'm pretty sure you cannot move in one month and then sell it and call it your residence.


There's also the possibility that the guy is just incompetent. My experience with realtors is that many of them aren't really on top of their stuff.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Trader Joe »

Savvy wrote:Hi Bogleheads - hopefully you can offer some good insight. Sorry for the long story.

We live in a regular neighborhood (all houses), lots of families, low crime, etc. Not a hot market but not a down market either.

The house next door has a big realtor "For Sale" sign out front through a reputable realtor agency. The name on the sign (the selling realtor) is the same as the owner of the house. Let's call him Mike. Mike owns this house but has rented it out to a string of fairly sketchy renters over the last few years. He posted this sign out front a year ago but the house never showed up on MLS or other online sites. Ultimately, he ended up getting another family of renters. This family is currently getting evicted. So now the sign is out front again, but again the house is not listed anywhere online.

I left a message to inquire about this but he doesn't call me back. My friend is interested in buying the house but Mike has avoided showing my friend the house. My realtor called him on April 1 to ask if the house is for sale since the sign had been out front for a few weeks. Mike said it would be up for sale in a couple of weeks. My realtor called again on May 1 and Mike said the renters were moving out at the end of May and then it would be for sale.

Separately, another neighbor friend asked him to take the sign down. He said that although he is not listing it on MLS, he is honoring written offers to anyone that makes one so therefore Mike doesn't think he needs to take the sign down. Obviously, we just want someone to buy that house that cares about the neighborhood rather than continuing to see renters move in that we do not feel very safe around.

Our neighbor has contacted his real estate agency to file a complaint. We feel that he is definitely being shady/unethical but not sure if there is anything we can do about it.

If he wants to rent it, fine. He should tell us he wants to rent it. If he wants to sell it, fine. He should tell us he wants to sell it. We think he is trying to offer contract-to-deed type things with renters but I am not sure how this is being executed on his end.

Thoughts/Ideas/Suggestions??

Thanks all!
Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

Trader Joe wrote: Yes, my advice is to mind your own business. He does not have to tell you anything.
[OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]
555
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by 555 »

Trader Joe wrote:Yes, my advice is to mind your own business. He does not have to tell you anything.
[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic comment. This discussion is headed towards a contentious debate on the ethics of the neighbor's behavior. Let's cut the discussion here, as there's enough information in the thread to help the OP. This thread has run its course and is locked. See: Forum Policy
Locked Topics

Moderators or site admins may lock a topic (set it so no more replies may be added) when a violation of posting policy has occurred. Occasionally, even if there are no overt violations of posting policy, a topic (or thread) will reach a point where the information content of the discussion has been essentially exhausted and further replies are much more likely to cause distress to the community than add anything of value.
Update: See below.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by LadyGeek »

After receiving a PM, the OP would like the thread reopened to respond to some of the comments.

This thread is now unlocked, please stay focused on the legal aspects.
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Topic Author
Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

lsufan1971 wrote:Is he violating any provision(s) in your HOA? If not there isn't much you can do.
Thanks for the comment. Good question. However, I thought HOAs only existed in townhomes / condo complexes, not residential areas with all houses. For example, I don't pay any HOA fees. Sorry - not very knowledgeable in this area.
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Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

niceguy7376 wrote:I dont know what he is trying to achieve by advertising it as for sale but renting it out. So what exactly does the sign bring him
I would do most of the following:

1. Let his broker company know about this
2. Check with HOA to see if anything can be done
3. Have your friend send a written offer through his agent and see what he says
Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely let his broker company know. Where can I check with HOA? My friend has not even seen the house since he hasn't been allowed to see it...are you thinking he should just write a really low offer and see what the response is?
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Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

livesoft wrote:
randomguy wrote:Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house? What do you think is unethical? It just seems like a crappy business practice. The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to do something to cut out his agency but that seems like a very high risk type move.
It is easy to explain the sign: If he is trying to get renters, then the sign clearly marks which house is his when he tells people to meet him or drive by for a look-see or walk-through.

Would you rather he had a FSBO sign up? Or a For Rent sign?

Anyways, it's a free country, I think he can do what he wants. And that includes waiting for an offer that he cannot refuse.
Thanks livesoft. Yes, agreed that he can do what he wants...but I would prefer he puts up a sign that actually indicates his plans. He has never had people over to see the place in the last 45 days where the sign has been up. It's just bizarre. A big reason why we are concerned is that my family and other local families have, at times, felt unsafe by the various folks living in this house.
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Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

terran wrote:Could it be that he just wants to have his sign out for those driving by as an advertisement for his real estate services? Obviously kind of backfiring if he wants people in the neighborhood to hire him, but maybe that's what he's thinking?
Thanks terran. That could be the case. We have wondered if it's just a source of free advertising. However, why not keep the sign out front year-round? I know when we purchased this house, the for sale sign stayed out front for about a week until the seller finally came to get it. Definitely understand that and am okay with that - the seller did a great job selling the house to us and he had free advertising for a week.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

Trader Joe wrote:
Savvy wrote:Hi Bogleheads - hopefully you can offer some good insight. Sorry for the long story.

We live in a regular neighborhood (all houses), lots of families, low crime, etc. Not a hot market but not a down market either.

The house next door has a big realtor "For Sale" sign out front through a reputable realtor agency. The name on the sign (the selling realtor) is the same as the owner of the house. Let's call him Mike. Mike owns this house but has rented it out to a string of fairly sketchy renters over the last few years. He posted this sign out front a year ago but the house never showed up on MLS or other online sites. Ultimately, he ended up getting another family of renters. This family is currently getting evicted. So now the sign is out front again, but again the house is not listed anywhere online.

I left a message to inquire about this but he doesn't call me back. My friend is interested in buying the house but Mike has avoided showing my friend the house. My realtor called him on April 1 to ask if the house is for sale since the sign had been out front for a few weeks. Mike said it would be up for sale in a couple of weeks. My realtor called again on May 1 and Mike said the renters were moving out at the end of May and then it would be for sale.

Separately, another neighbor friend asked him to take the sign down. He said that although he is not listing it on MLS, he is honoring written offers to anyone that makes one so therefore Mike doesn't think he needs to take the sign down. Obviously, we just want someone to buy that house that cares about the neighborhood rather than continuing to see renters move in that we do not feel very safe around.

Our neighbor has contacted his real estate agency to file a complaint. We feel that he is definitely being shady/unethical but not sure if there is anything we can do about it.

If he wants to rent it, fine. He should tell us he wants to rent it. If he wants to sell it, fine. He should tell us he wants to sell it. We think he is trying to offer contract-to-deed type things with renters but I am not sure how this is being executed on his end.

Thoughts/Ideas/Suggestions??

Thanks all!
Savvy
Yes, my advice is to mind your own business. He does not have to tell you anything.
Thanks Trader Joe. I would probably mind my own business more if I (and neighbors) didn't feel uncomfortable with the series of neighbors living next door. There have been fights in the street, late-night phone calls outside where somebody is cursing out someone else on the phone (our houses are near each other and their driveway is next to our bedroom), potential illegal activity (won't get into it), etc. If I can have any type of influence in the next folks living there, I will try my best to be involved. But yes, I appreciate your insight that I should maybe just leave this alone.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

jfn111 wrote:I would give the agency a call and ask them why their sign is in front of a house that isn't listed in MLS?
Thanks for the comments. I will be sure to do that. One of our neighbors has made the company aware, but I would be curious myself.
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Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

TwoByFour wrote:
randomguy wrote:Can anyone explain why you would have a for sale sign but not be interested selling the house?
Taxes. If he were to sell it he could claim that is was a residence as long as he was trying to sell it while it was rented. That way he gets the residence exemption for capital gains in selling a house. If it is a pure rental he cannot claim the exemption. My CPA told us about this exception when we asked about a situation we have with renting a second home. That is my guess.
Very interesting. Thanks for the comments. Never heard of this before.
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Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Really appreciated. At this point, in order to keep things on topic, feel free to provide any additional comments on actions that I can or cannot take to further pursue this issue.

Thanks!
Savvy
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by 555 »

It sounds like you should take video footage and get the police involved.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by baw703916 »

If this tax thing is accurate you could report him to the IRS. I'm sure they wouldn't take kindly to someone claiming to be selling the house so that they could secure a tax advantage if they weren't really making a bone fide attempt to do so.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by niceguy7376 »

OP,
Does your community have Swimming pool or tennis courts or a community hall? Normally HOA handles and maintains those and charges a monthly or yearly fee for each resident of the community. If you have been living in this community for some years but have no idea of HOA then I assume there is no HOA for your community.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Savvy »

niceguy7376 wrote:OP,
Does your community have Swimming pool or tennis courts or a community hall? Normally HOA handles and maintains those and charges a monthly or yearly fee for each resident of the community. If you have been living in this community for some years but have no idea of HOA then I assume there is no HOA for your community.
Nope, none of those. Thanks. I didn't think we had HOA, but the many questions about it made me second guess myself. I don't pay HOA fees and I don't think we're in any HOA. Just a regular residential neighborhood without HOA.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by CT-Scott »

Savvy wrote:I left a message to inquire about this but he doesn't call me back. My friend is interested in buying the house but Mike has avoided showing my friend the house. My realtor called him on April 1 to ask if the house is for sale since the sign had been out front for a few weeks. Mike said it would be up for sale in a couple of weeks. My realtor called again on May 1 and Mike said the renters were moving out at the end of May and then it would be for sale.
Honestly, I don't really see anything about your neighbor's story that seems that hard to believe. Here's how I see it:
- He had renters that are leaving (due to eviction), so now he wants to either sell or rent the house out again, so he puts a sign up ASAP to minimize the amount of time that it sits empty.
- He's not ready to *actually* show prospective buyers/renters the house yet because the current tenants are still there and are probably disgruntled since they're being evicted. He doesn't want to run the risk of showing the house while one or more of them are there and those current tenants probably aren't keeping it in "model home" show-worthy condition, either.

He told you that they're moving out at the end of May. That's now less than 30 days away. Why not just wait till the end of the month and see if that happens? If this guy's story is as I posited, and you pursue filing complaints against him, I could also see this guy not being particularly amicable in negotiations with your friend to buy the place.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by vested1 »

I think the answer to the reason he is doing this may be to encourage unwanted tenants to leave. He could simply tell them that he's decided to sell the house and most would decide to look for somewhere else to rent. This could save him time and money on evictions but seems dishonest to me. It would be better if he actually sold the house or rented it to a more responsible client.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by BolderBoy »

555 wrote:It sounds like you should take video footage and get the police involved.
I'll second this. The police may decide to have a talk with the owner and that may be enough to change his mind...
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by MildlyEccentric »

Perhaps there is a clause in the rental agreement which permits the landlord to enter the property in order to show it allowing the owner to keep tabs on the property while the tenants are transitioning out.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by staythecourse »

Trader Joe wrote:Yes, my advice is to mind your own business. He does not have to tell you anything.
I would have to agree with this one. Unless he is breaking some rules/ laws he can do whatever he wants with his property. If you have any issues of illegal "stuff" happening around the property then you have the legal rights to call the police as often as you want.

I think it is rather rude to think as a neighbor who has no ownership in said property that you can dictate anything. How would you like it if he came to you and wanted you to sell so he can move his brother into your property?

I am sure you are decent person and have reasonable reasons to want changes that benefit you and the neighbors, but we live in America and if he is the owner AND not breaking any laws he can do whatever he wants. Simple as that.

One option, sorry if you have mentioned it earlier in this thread is to see if you can find a renter who is "acceptable" that you know. I am sure he would be MORE then willing to rent it out to a more responsible person. That would be a win (you)- win (him)- win (the new renter) situation.

Good luck.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by Lazysundays »

Why don't you call the state board of licensure. Even anonymous inquiries may initiate an investigation. Just call and ask what the realtor is doing since it doesn't make sense to you. Also, check the address on zillow? Is it showing up even as a "make me move" listing?
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An angry neighbor.

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Savvy:

Before making a decision, consider the fact that few things are worse than having an angry neighbor.

Best wishes.
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Re: House Next Door for Sale...Kind Of: Ethics Issue?

Post by 8foot7 »

I confess I don't understand this thread.

If there is illegal activity going on at the house next to you involving the renters, call the police.

The owner has no duty or obligation to share his intent regarding his property with you or any other neighbor. I am not sure why you think he is obligated to tell you or seek your neighbors' approval before placing his house for sale or putting a for sale sign in his yard assuming there is no local code violation and no HOA. I am not sure why anyone thinks an MLS listing is a requirement of selling a house or advertising it for sale. I am also not sure why he is obligated to show the house to any one individual or not.

If your concern is the sketchy renters, use the police. But imo the wrong tree is being barked up when you start talking about him declaring to you his intentions with the property or approving him putting a sign up.
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