Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

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nitro4214
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:48 pm

masni wrote:Hi,

I just wanted to give me 2 cents, and ask the question on how your skills matches today"s market and it there a potential of it being outsource. While it is great that you are a techie, it could be that you find yourself in an ever shrinking market. From my perspective, a manager can still manage a team off shore, and techie, much less so..

It is not what you could be earning, more of will your skills be in demand in the next 10 years,
Outsourcing is a concern. The boss told me that the director (who is over multiple branches) would rather outsource things like coding than do it in-house. The company as a whole has moved away from in-house development, networking, etc....and moved a lot of that work overseas. Those of us left still do hands on work but we also communicate with vendors and people overseas who do a good amount of technical work.

nitro4214
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:57 pm

dowse wrote:Greater rewards = greater risk.
Yes, just like investing. :)
dowse wrote:No. In my case, the staff and budget were usually adequate. It was more a case of having a management style suited for the organization at the time. As that shifted, perceptions changed, and I had to change to survive. There were also unrealistic expectations that I could have managed better. Politics also played a role, as they inevitably do. I am too straight a shooter to play the political side of things well.
Same here. Another reason why I'm leaning against it. I like to be straight forward and honest with people I am doing business with. When our company had lay offs, several years ago, the director at the time did not tell the manager at the time until the day it happened, even though he knew about it for months. That is one of the issues that led to their falling out.
dowse wrote:In the end, I survived (40 years), by keeping my hand in the technical aspects just enough to be able to move back and forth a couple of times over the course of my career. Maybe that comprised my management effectiveness, but I ended up happy overall. After switching back to the technical side for the last time almost 10 years ago, I spearheaded a program that filled a significant gap in the company's product line. I now consider that effort, which still continues today, to be my best work, and what I am most proud of. Because of that, it is likely that I was compensated better than I would have been had I stayed in management.
Any big changes you've seen in the workplace in general over that timeframe? I was talking to one guy who worked about 30 years in the field. He said the tech business climate changed for the worse in the late 80s. I would imagine things got better around the dot com boom, however, I only caught the tail end of that.
dowse wrote:The best managers succeed and derive their satisfaction by enabling others to succeed. The time spent can be worth it both financially and emotionally when the organization succeeds. One important point is whether your company offers training to new managers. I had some, but not really enough. It's a common problem in high tech. Many companies offer little or no training. All too often, very successful engineers are thrust into a management role only to find that the education and skills that have served them so well have not prepared them for this new role. I hope your company does offer training, should you decide to go into management.
No training although they would might pay for MBA classes.

rgs92
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by rgs92 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:43 am

Once they start outsourcing overseas, your systems will turn into buggy nightmares and your work environment will degrade substantially.
And your dilemma will be moot, because everyone left behind will evolve into a management role, even if not officially so, trying to get the offshore guys to do their job. Hello to 3am crisis meetings.
Good luck trying to understand all the mumbling from far away.
Personally, I would take the promotion just to sock away as much money as you can before the ship sinks and you are looking for another job just to save your sanity.

yosef
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by yosef » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:15 am

nitro4214 wrote: The last two managers were promoted from the tech ranks. Do you feel that managers should mainly have excellent soft skills and not so much technical skills? It is a common complaint amongst techies that their managers are clueless when it comes to technology.
They should without question have excellent soft skills. You're right that cluelessness is a common compliant. But I think the real problem are clueless managers who don't know they're clueless and/or don't trust their subordinates. Sure ideally your manager would understand what you work on pretty well, and be an excellent manager to boot. But those folks are rare. I'll take a good manager who looks out for and trusts his people over a promoted techie that doesn't want to be there.
nitro4214 wrote: I'm looking at it realistically. There are pros but there are also plenty of cons (which may very well outweigh the pros). I am not going to apply but am curious to see if I am approached. The last time this job was open, the director at the time approached me and recommended that I apply. I'm not sure if he was serious or blowing smoke up my you know what..... he might have wanted somebody to get the job other than the person who became manager since they were butting heads at the time. Or maybe he just wanted others to apply even though he already knew who was going to be hired. Difficult to tell.
You should take care to not be viewed as having no aspirations. Again if the company has no real career path for individual contributors and you've stalled, I'd look elsewhere.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by michaellarimore » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:39 pm

madbrain wrote:
michaellarimore wrote: Tech salaries are under siege - I'm paid well today, but its the same number i made when i too was 36 - 26 years ago...
I hope you mean inflation adjusted. Even so, I suspect that has a lot to do with age discrimination in the tech industry.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/0 ... oung/?_r=0
Unfortunately I do mean the actual non-inflation adjusted number... :( However, i went from traveling to a permanent situation in my home city of Miami...I'm still happy and saving more... My co-worker(programming contractor) makes a smaller non-inflation adjusted hourly wage than he did 18 years ago in the same department as a contractor. Its not age discrimination, i'm highly valued; its the supply and demand effect of good foreign workers...

nitro4214
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:29 pm

rgs92 wrote:Once they start outsourcing overseas, your systems will turn into buggy nightmares and your work environment will degrade substantially.
Already there. I don't deal with it as much as the support guys but might if they send all development overseas. One of my co-workers had an experience the other day where he was communicating with two different overseas groups that were pointing the finger at each other. Almost 12 hours after the issue occurred, it was resolved. It was a simple fix (and someone overseas made a mistake which led to the issue) which made it more frustrating for him.
rgs92 wrote:And your dilemma will be moot, because everyone left behind will evolve into a management role, even if not officially so, trying to get the offshore guys to do their job. Hello to 3am crisis meetings.
Good luck trying to understand all the mumbling from far away

Personally, I would take the promotion just to sock away as much money as you can before the ship sinks and you are looking for another job just to save your sanity.
I'm leaning against it but the work that I like doing most (development) could be phased out and I'm sure I will end up getting involved in a lot more support work due to the boss's departure. I'm thinking "damned if I do, damned if I don't".
Last edited by nitro4214 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:39 pm

yosef wrote:They should without question have excellent soft skills. You're right that cluelessness is a common compliant. But I think the real problem are clueless managers who don't know they're clueless and/or don't trust their subordinates. Sure ideally your manager would understand what you work on pretty well, and be an excellent manager to boot. But those folks are rare. I'll take a good manager who looks out for and trusts his people over a promoted techie that doesn't want to be there.
I would agree under normal circumstances. Under these circumstances, we don't have enough boots on the ground. Bringing in a great manager isn't going to help much if the manager is not willing to work in the trenches every once in awhile.
yosef wrote:Again if the company has no real career path for individual contributors and you've stalled, I'd look elsewhere.
I'm coming to the conclusion that this is likely the long term answer.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by dowse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:17 am

Any big changes you've seen in the workplace in general over that timeframe? I was talking to one guy who worked about 30 years in the field. He said the tech business climate changed for the worse in the late 80s. I would imagine things got better around the dot com boom, however, I only caught the tail end of that.
Huge changes. I can speak mainly from the vantage point of my own company, for whom I have worked for 37 years, but I think we are a reflection of trends in the industry in general. The company has become far more risk-averse. Risk assessment is emphasized, and projects are only approved when they are thought to be sure thing. This has essentially eliminated the "skunks works" type projects, which in the past were often duds, but also sometimes incubators of highly innovative products. There is still some respect for individual styles, and the company has still has a liberal time-off and flexible hours policy, but it is just not as much fun as it used to be. There has also been much more of an emphasis on quality control. While this is a good thing, it also takes considerable time and energy to collect and analyze data. These activities aren't a lot of fun, but necessary in today's world, and the market as a whole is better for it.

No training although they would might pay for MBA classes
While an MBA would be quite valuable, it would take you years to complete while working. For a more immediate impact, perhaps your company would sponsor your attendance at courses offered by outside firms. These courses can last anywhere from a day to a week or more, and can give you a quick start in certain focused topic areas. The challenge is to find good ones that are worth the expense. If you belong to a professional organization, they may offer such courses. They would do at least some screening of the instructor and organization offering them.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by dowse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:26 am

warner25 wrote:
If I were an individual contributor, I would want a 50% bump in compensation to move into management. I think of it as something unpleasant that most people do just to get ahead financially. As others have pointed out, it seems like tech/software/engineering is one of the few areas right now where someone can make just as much, if not more, money as an individual contributor.
That seems really high to me. In my company, there are levels and salary ranges defined for professionals. There are 6 levels for engineers and 3 levels for managers. Engineer 6 is reserved for highly exalted gurus and very few ever attain it. Most can achieve level 5 over the course of a long career, but some plateau at level 4. Anyway, if memory serves, the salary range for Engineer 5 overlaps with the salary range for Manager 1, and the range for Engineer 6 overlaps with that of Manager 2. Due to the significant change in responsibility, a move from engineer to Manager 1 can result in a salary bump, but 50% is unlikely. A 20% bump would be more realistic. When I was a manger, there were several senior engineers reporting to me who made more than I did. They would have been shocked, if they knew that.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by Rodc » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:15 am

dowse wrote:
warner25 wrote:
If I were an individual contributor, I would want a 50% bump in compensation to move into management. I think of it as something unpleasant that most people do just to get ahead financially. As others have pointed out, it seems like tech/software/engineering is one of the few areas right now where someone can make just as much, if not more, money as an individual contributor.
That seems really high to me. In my company, there are levels and salary ranges defined for professionals. There are 6 levels for engineers and 3 levels for managers. Engineer 6 is reserved for highly exalted gurus and very few ever attain it. Most can achieve level 5 over the course of a long career, but some plateau at level 4. Anyway, if memory serves, the salary range for Engineer 5 overlaps with the salary range for Manager 1, and the range for Engineer 6 overlaps with that of Manager 2. Due to the significant change in responsibility, a move from engineer to Manager 1 can result in a salary bump, but 50% is unlikely. A 20% bump would be more realistic. When I was a manger, there were several senior engineers reporting to me who made more than I did. They would have been shocked, if they knew that.
How did the move to management work at your company? That is, if you were an ambitious 35 year old engineer 3 could you move into management? Or did you really have to be at least engineer 5 to move into management? Given what you report about salaries I would suspect the engineers making more than managers reflects something like a very experienced engineer vs a not so experienced manager. Is that right? If so the salary comparison is something of an apples to oranges deal and does not really reflect what a given person might expect going from engineer to manager.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by dowse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:59 am

Rodc wrote:
How did the move to management work at your company? That is, if you were an ambitious 35 year old engineer 3 could you move into management? Or did you really have to be at least engineer 5 to move into management? Given what you report about salaries I would suspect the engineers making more than managers reflects something like a very experienced engineer vs a not so experienced manager. Is that right? If so the salary comparison is something of an apples to oranges deal and does not really reflect what a given person might expect going from engineer to manager.
There was no set requirement for attaining a certain level before moving into management. In fact, I saw a couple of cases similar to your example. I don't think it would have taken a 50% bump, though, even to move from the upper part of the level 3 range to the lower part of the Manager 1 range. I agree that you can't generalize from this. There are exceptions made for exceptional individuals.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by Rodc » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:30 am

dowse wrote:
Rodc wrote:
How did the move to management work at your company? That is, if you were an ambitious 35 year old engineer 3 could you move into management? Or did you really have to be at least engineer 5 to move into management? Given what you report about salaries I would suspect the engineers making more than managers reflects something like a very experienced engineer vs a not so experienced manager. Is that right? If so the salary comparison is something of an apples to oranges deal and does not really reflect what a given person might expect going from engineer to manager.
There was no set requirement for attaining a certain level before moving into management. In fact, I saw a couple of cases similar to your example. I don't think it would have taken a 50% bump, though, even to move from the upper part of the level 3 range to the lower part of the Manager 1 range. I agree that you can't generalize from this. There are exceptions made for exceptional individuals.
Thanks.

Agree it would seem very unlikely to see anything like a 50% jump in pay moving from one job category to another within one company. It might have happened somewhere sometime but I have never heard of such a thing. I was more thinking of the case where a technical person made more than their manager. I have seen that, but in a case like in your company of a very experienced highly valued engineer 5 or 6 and a young not so experienced manager. The younger person would get a bump of maybe 10% or something but not enough to vault from say engineer 4 with 10 years over an engineer 6 with 30 years.

Now another 20 years down the road that manager would have 30 years of experience and like make more than a 30-year engineer 6, bu that would only come with time (and supposing they last that long and all sorts of things).
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by LiveSimple » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:21 pm

nitro4214, you stared the dialogue.

We all chimed in and learn a lot, in the process.

What did you decide finally ! Become a manager, stay technical or find a new job at a new company for the long run :D

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by dowse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:24 pm

Rodc wrote:
Thanks.

Agree it would seem very unlikely to see anything like a 50% jump in pay moving from one job category to another within one company. It might have happened somewhere sometime but I have never heard of such a thing. I was more thinking of the case where a technical person made more than their manager. I have seen that, but in a case like in your company of a very experienced highly valued engineer 5 or 6 and a young not so experienced manager. The younger person would get a bump of maybe 10% or something but not enough to vault from say engineer 4 with 10 years over an engineer 6 with 30 years.

Now another 20 years down the road that manager would have 30 years of experience and like make more than a 30-year engineer 6, bu that would only come with time (and supposing they last that long and all sorts of things).
I would add that I think it is a very good thing that it is possible for individual contributors to make more than their managers, even if only for cases of a higher level individual working for a lower level manager. This encourages everyone to do what they do best. The problem is, they often aren't aware of it. Ironically, there is often complaining about that "incompetent SOB who makes far more than we do". Little do they know that's not necessarily true.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by jrendem » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:55 pm

I have also been in a similar position moving from a tech support type position as an engineer to a management position for the same department. The job completely changed and instead of being able to do what I enjoyed solving problems, I was stuck with piles of paperwork and meetings while watching the team struggle to keep up. It is a completely different element that even if you are close to where you were working before, can make the job much less exciting and sometimes not worth the pay bump. Also as a tech I had free time to do other things and the management role was incredibly time consuming and stressful.
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by wfrobinette » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:39 pm

HomerJ wrote:
wfrobinette wrote:I made the move to management 8 years ago and have doubled my salary and have excellent long term incentives. . Sure there's additional work and headaches but if you delegate, lead well and hire the right people it can be a very rewarding experience. Once you hit the management ranks there are many opportunities to expand it to roles with more responsibility. Find the right company and that means larger bonuses, stock options, more vacation etc.
I've almost doubled my salary in the last 8 years as well, and I remained a tech...

However, I will admit your long-term compensation will probably be better than mine.. I'm pretty much done with promotions at this point...

I don't think being a manager or a director is worth it at all... A lot more stress, lot more meetings, loss of tech skills, a little more money (compared to a good tech).

However, being a VP is usually worth it... In some cases, you get to make decisions instead of implementing them, and you probably make a LOT more money, with access to bonuses and stock options as well.

And the only way to get to VP is put up with 5-10 years of being a manager and director, dealing with politics and bad decisions from above.

I plan to retire in 10 years, so there's zero reason for me to put up with being a manager or director at this point. Plus, being a tech is a FUN job. Learn something new every week.

In the OP's particular situation, I think you should apply... Sounds like more a tech lead position, if you get to keep your hands busy... You can always switch back to tech if you don't like it.
My doubling put me in the 33% bracket in a moderate cost of living area. As Director I make at least 60% TO 100% more in total comp than our highest paid technical resource all the while I still get to keep the architecture skills but get set direction for my department. That's a lot more money. I'm talking a tech architect earning 138k after bonus. I find that the stress is not that bad and there are not that many meetings if you are doing things right. Even as a tech you have to deal with bad decisions from above. The grass is never greener on either side.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Fri May 01, 2015 12:56 am

LiveSimple wrote:nitro4214, you stared the dialogue.

We all chimed in and learn a lot, in the process.

What did you decide finally ! Become a manager, stay technical or find a new job at a new company for the long run :D
I have not yet decided. I was leaning against it at first. I found out that none of the others in the group want the job. A couple of managers in other departments encouraged me to apply. Still haven't pulled the trigger for reasons already brought up. I am going to have to make a final decision soon.

I'm starting to think that the long term solution is to move on. We're stretched really thin and I don't see that changing anytime soon. If I don't take the job, they could very well bring in a manager that will be instructed to run me off (either because I did not seek promotion and/or salary too high for pay grade even though I am underpaid for skillset). Would it be out of line to schedule a meeting with the director and get more info? As far as pay, expectations, etc. Taking the job would be stressful but I don't think working for another (possibly bad) manager would be much less stressful. From what I have heard about the candidates who applied, they are currently in technical roles and have no managerial experience either.
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Fri May 01, 2015 1:11 am

jrendem wrote:I have also been in a similar position moving from a tech support type position as an engineer to a management position for the same department. The job completely changed and instead of being able to do what I enjoyed solving problems, I was stuck with piles of paperwork and meetings while watching the team struggle to keep up. It is a completely different element that even if you are close to where you were working before, can make the job much less exciting and sometimes not worth the pay bump. Also as a tech I had free time to do other things and the management role was incredibly time consuming and stressful.
This is exactly the reason I haven't applied. The company benefits if I take the job. They would pay me less than the last boss and that would save the company money. My replacement (current position) would cost less than current salary and that would save them more money. Then the pressure would be on me to make sure things get done...not only what I do now and what everyone else does (subordinates, vendors, contractors, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if I am asked again since nobody else in the group seems to want the job.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by island » Fri May 01, 2015 2:46 am

nitro4214 wrote:
jrendem wrote:I have also been in a similar position moving from a tech support type position as an engineer to a management position for the same department. The job completely changed and instead of being able to do what I enjoyed solving problems, I was stuck with piles of paperwork and meetings while watching the team struggle to keep up. It is a completely different element that even if you are close to where you were working before, can make the job much less exciting and sometimes not worth the pay bump. Also as a tech I had free time to do other things and the management role was incredibly time consuming and stressful.
This is exactly the reason I haven't applied. The company benefits if I take the job. They would pay me less than the last boss and that would save the company money. My replacement (current position) would cost less than current salary and that would save them more money. Then the pressure would be on me to make sure things get done...not only what I do now and what everyone else does (subordinates, vendors, contractors, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if I am asked again since nobody else in the group seems to want the job.
It doesn't sound like any plus side to taking the job. Your last sentence says a lot.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by LiveSimple » Fri May 01, 2015 6:45 am

nitro4214 wrote: If I don't take the job, they could very well bring in a manager that will be instructed to run me off (either because I did not seek promotion and/or salary too high for pay grade even though I am underpaid for skill set).
Don't worry on this. This will never happen in a million years. Not seen a new manager firing a seasoned technical resource. There are many reasons, the company do know the value of the contributions made by the technical resources.

The things may be different, if the company is going through a restructuring / reorganizing, and layoff is around, with a broader brush.

Also the technical resource, should not be worried about the job, if you have confidence in your skills. Seems like your colleagues are solid in their thoughts to be technical.

One tip to avoid being managerial, is to deliver your work product flawless, then be candid, loud and clear at work.
Management do not want loud candid discussions around, and they will leave you alone from the managerial ranks :D :sharebeer

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Fri May 01, 2015 12:30 pm

island wrote:
nitro4214 wrote: It doesn't sound like any plus side to taking the job. Your last sentence says a lot.
The money and office. I like to plan/organize also. The last two bosses were not very organized. A 50% bump might be worth it but I doubt HR would allow that to happen. I think 30% would be more realistic and I wouldn't be surprised if they tried for 20%. I'm aware that taking the job just for the money/office would be taking it for the wrong reasons. I like the team and get along well with the other team members but that could change if I were to take over and get pressure from above to work them harder than they are already working.

I had this conversation with a friend who said I should "look out for myself" and take the job....just take the job for the money and control over scheduling as if those are the only things that matter. I'm looking out for myself by thinking it through (all the pros/cons) and will make a decision based on that. Just because there is more money and an office doesn't mean it's automatically better.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Fri May 01, 2015 12:50 pm

LiveSimple wrote:Don't worry on this. This will never happen in a million years. Not seen a new manager firing a seasoned technical resource. There are many reasons, the company do know the value of the contributions made by the technical resources.
Ok that is good to know. I've gotten along with pretty much all my managers in the past except one manager was a narcissist who was difficult to work with (at the same company). I don't want to repeat that experience again.
LiveSimple wrote:Also the technical resource, should not be worried about the job, if you have confidence in your skills. Seems like your colleagues are solid in their thoughts to be technical.

One tip to avoid being managerial, is to deliver your work product flawless, then be candid, loud and clear at work.
Management do not want loud candid discussions around, and they will leave you alone from the managerial ranks :D :sharebeer
LOL so you're saying to be straight forward and honest and you won't be a great prospect to be a manager? :)

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by LadyGeek » Fri May 01, 2015 12:50 pm

^^^ Here's what LiveSimple means (we posted at the same time):
LiveSimple wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:Also the technical resource, should not be worried about the job, if you have confidence in your skills. Seems like your colleagues are solid in their thoughts to be technical.

One tip to avoid being managerial, is to deliver your work product flawless, then be candid, loud and clear at work.
Management do not want loud candid discussions around, and they will leave you alone from the managerial ranks :D :sharebeer
To be clear, this does not mean speaking with a loud voice and being obnoxious. It means consistently focusing on the technical approach and never deviating. I know a few engineers like this.

The boss says "We're 95% complete on this project."

You say "We can't ship because we've got these problems..." then give a long-winded technical explanation in gory detail.

Yes, it's the remaining 5% and you were totally correct. However, no manager in his right mind would ever think that you were cut out for management. That sort of thing.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by harrychan » Fri May 01, 2015 7:11 pm

nitro4214 wrote:I think 30% would be more realistic and I wouldn't be surprised if they tried for 20%.
I'd be extremely skeptical they would suddenly bump you 20%. It may happen when bringing in external candidates. From my experience and from talking to other IT companies, they always ease you into the manager's range. If your current salary is already on the lower end of the manager's range, even more challenging you will get 20% bump. Maybe in 5 years they may slowly increase your pay. If you still plan on applying, perhaps you can use it to get other perks such as increased vacation, bonus, car allowance, etc.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by LiveSimple » Fri May 01, 2015 7:16 pm

nitro4214 wrote:
LiveSimple wrote:Yeap I know many senior engineer / architect paid more than their managers. In the industry we call the managers "general managers", it is much easy to become a senior manager than becoming a senior technical personal. It takes education, skill and experience in the job. Basically " Stay the course".

Since manager, approves hours, approves vacation is not making more $$$ than the technical person, under him.
I have worked for mainly large non-tech companies. It seems that the only way to move "up" is to get into management. Much of the DBA and hands on stuff has been outsourced overseas.

There are indeed tech companies that do have a technical path where you can move up but none in my area. Even in the city, I'd be willing to bet that most IT jobs are in non-technical companies.
Need some information about the position, the type of company to help. I am technical architect for non technical company, Fortune 100 / Fortune 50, still can be technical / managerial in IT.

See a text I did sent to one of my protege
============================================
What I am expecting is something like, what you did.

1. Analyzed the project requirements.
2. Discussed the technical solution, which involved Java, HTML, Javascript.
3. The database is Oracle, planning to use Oracle 11 grid.

See we can discuss, what you do, without really what the client is, their process / product is.
All are related to you, your skills, etc.
============================================

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Fri May 01, 2015 8:32 pm

LadyGeek wrote:^^^ Here's what LiveSimple means (we posted at the same time):

Management do not want loud candid discussions around, and they will leave you alone from the managerial ranks :D :sharebeer
To be clear, this does not mean speaking with a loud voice and being obnoxious. It means consistently focusing on the technical approach and never deviating. I know a few engineers like this.

The boss says "We're 95% complete on this project."

You say "We can't ship because we've got these problems..." then give a long-winded technical explanation in gory detail.

Yes, it's the remaining 5% and you were totally correct. However, no manager in his right mind would ever think that you were cut out for management. That sort of thing.
I know what you mean. Some engineers are really good at what they do but have very little self awareness. I usually try to see things from the other person's point of view and don't bother boring them with details they don't understand.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie

Post by nitro4214 » Fri May 01, 2015 8:35 pm

harrychan wrote:I'd be extremely skeptical they would suddenly bump you 20%. It may happen when bringing in external candidates. From my experience and from talking to other IT companies, they always ease you into the manager's range. If your current salary is already on the lower end of the manager's range, even more challenging you will get 20% bump. Maybe in 5 years they may slowly increase your pay. If you still plan on applying, perhaps you can use it to get other perks such as increased vacation, bonus, car allowance, etc.
Really? Considering I'm two pay grades below manager, that wouldn't be much more than the guy in the pay grade above me makes. After taxes are taken into consideration, maybe only a few thousand.

5 years? Wow. The last manager didn't make 5 years and the previous manager lasted just over 5 years. Maybe that is when they run them off so they don't have to pay them more.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun May 17, 2015 10:35 am

Ok a few new developments....

I have not applied for the position.

They interviewed a few people from the outside. None of them have management experience. I did not happen to be in the office when they were given a tour but my colleagues were not impressed for various reasons.

A couple of my colleagues have applied. One seems to be qualified but he doesn't really want the job. The other is not qualified but really wants the job. I have more experience in the field (and department) than both combined. There is a supervisor from another department who seems to be interested but he's a jerk and I definitely do not want to work for him.

Seems that everyone who has been interviewed are either inexperienced and/or are not going to be pleasant to work for which will lead to a more stressful work environment. I have worked for a bad boss before at this company and do not want to go through that again.

Reconsidering applying since they are still taking applications but will have to act soon. Let's say I interview and am offered the job but decide not to take it (due to low balling salary or decide it's not for me), could this strain my relationship with management?

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by LadyGeek » Sun May 17, 2015 10:59 am

nitro4214 wrote:...Reconsidering applying since they are still taking applications but will have to act soon. Let's say I interview and am offered the job but decide not to take it (due to low balling salary or decide it's not for me), could this strain my relationship with management?
Absolutely yes it will strain the relationship, as you've just wasted their time. Low-balling you on salary might be a good excuse, but I'm thinking they're not going to do this to you. If you go this route, get your resume in shape and start looking outside ASAP.

You're feeling sympathetic again (see my previous post). Don't let emotion get in the way and Ignore the noise. You've already made your decision, stick with it.
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun May 17, 2015 11:22 am

LadyGeek wrote: Absolutely yes it will strain the relationship, as you've just wasted their time. Low-balling you on salary might be a good excuse, but I'm thinking they're not going to do this to you. If you go this route, get your resume in shape and start looking outside ASAP.

You're feeling sympathetic again (see my previous post). Don't let emotion get in the way and Ignore the noise. You've already made your decision, stick with it.
Ok so if I apply then I need to be 100% committed. Got it.

I am not feeling sympathetic. I am doing this for me. The person that is currently in charge (interim manager) is in over his head and has said on numerous occasions that he doesn't really want the job. I have noticed that he has been getting friendly with a supervisor from another department (someone who has been rude toward me) and there are signs that this individual is going to apply. This is someone that I do not want to work for (referring to the supervisor from the other department). I would not say he is qualified for the job but he could get it if there are no other suitable candidates and the person currently in charge does not take the position. I have worked for a bad boss before in this company and do not want to go that route again.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by LadyGeek » Sun May 17, 2015 11:46 am

To be clear, are you are only reconsidering to apply because you don't want to work for this supervisor? If so, that's not the right reason to apply by a long shot.

If this supervisor becomes a manager, deal with the personality conflict then. Situations change.
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun May 17, 2015 11:59 am

LadyGeek wrote:To be clear, are you are only reconsidering to apply because you don't want to work for this supervisor? If so, that's not the right reason to apply by a long shot.

If this supervisor becomes a manager, deal with the personality conflict then. Situations change.
That is not the only reason. I think I am more qualified than anybody who has applied. All of the people who are being considered have less experience than I do.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by LadyGeek » Sun May 17, 2015 12:13 pm

Playing devil's advocate -

You are changing your mind because you now have a better understanding of the other candidate's experiences. Prior to the latest round of interviews, you did not.

Why is that making a difference in your thinking now?

Bear in mind that the perceived "lack of experience" will be fixed in a few weeks. The "new" manager will be given some time to acclimate and be mentored on how to do the job. After the break-in period, the new business rhythm is established and the "lack of experience" issues disappear.
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by KlangFool » Sun May 17, 2015 12:43 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Playing devil's advocate -

You are changing your mind because you now have a better understanding of the other candidate's experiences. Prior to the latest round of interviews, you did not.

Why is that making a difference in your thinking now?

Bear in mind that the perceived "lack of experience" will be fixed in a few weeks. The "new" manager will be given some time to acclimate and be mentored on how to do the job. After the break-in period, the new business rhythm is established and the "lack of experience" issues disappear.
+100...

Do not do others job... Just because TS is better than the existing person, it does not mean

A) He is qualified to do the job.

B) It is worth his effort to do the job..

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by yosef » Sun May 17, 2015 12:59 pm

Agree 100% with previous posters. You decided you didn't want the job, did you not? I don't see how having more experience than and/or not liking the person whom you think may get the job changes that at all. Personally, I'm still getting the vibe that neither the job you have nor the one you have been debating applying for are particularly good. You would do well to polish your resume and at least see what's out there while there is still no pressure.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by Rodc » Sun May 17, 2015 6:39 pm

They might prefer someone who actually wants the job vs someone who only kind of sort of wants the job. If you apply now you will likely be a weaker candidate than if you had applied early,because it will be clear you don't really have the drive to go after the job.

That said, best of luck however you go.
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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by LiveSimple » Sun May 17, 2015 8:20 pm

Nitro, uhmmmm... What is your value proposition.

Not sure to see the value you are adding to rage manage role, we hear mostly external factors outside of yourself. Like others are less experied, I do not like him, to be a manager, hence I plan to apply.

Okay go ahead and apply, see what happens and fit from there.

If you apply and get the job great, if not at least you are satisfied that you applied :oops:

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun May 17, 2015 11:39 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Playing devil's advocate -

You are changing your mind because you now have a better understanding of the other candidate's experiences. Prior to the latest round of interviews, you did not.

Why is that making a difference in your thinking now?
I never made a final decision and always left the possibility open. I would alternate between being "gung ho" about the possibility of taking the job and being apprehensive for a number of reasons.
Last edited by nitro4214 on Wed May 20, 2015 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun May 17, 2015 11:42 pm

yosef wrote:Agree 100% with previous posters. You decided you didn't want the job, did you not? I don't see how having more experience than and/or not liking the person whom you think may get the job changes that at all. Personally, I'm still getting the vibe that neither the job you have nor the one you have been debating applying for are particularly good. You would do well to polish your resume and at least see what's out there while there is still no pressure.
See above post. I have updated the resume so that I will be prepared if things get worse. There has been more stress lately without the manager

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Sun May 17, 2015 11:52 pm

Rodc wrote:They might prefer someone who actually wants the job vs someone who only kind of sort of wants the job. If you apply now you will likely be a weaker candidate than if you had applied early,because it will be clear you don't really have the drive to go after the job.
Good point
Rodc wrote:
That said, best of luck however you go.
Thanks.
Last edited by nitro4214 on Wed May 20, 2015 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Mon May 18, 2015 12:00 am

LiveSimple wrote:Nitro, uhmmmm... What is your value proposition.

Not sure to see the value you are adding to rage manage role, we hear mostly external factors outside of yourself. Like others are less experied, I do not like him, to be a manager, hence I plan to apply.

Okay go ahead and apply, see what happens and fit from there.

If you apply and get the job great, if not at least you are satisfied that you applied :oops:
Yeah but I'd hate to waste their time. Perhaps I should briefly meet the director and ask for more information (including salary) before going through the application process? He doesn't come around much so I have not seen him in awhile.

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by tony5412 » Mon May 18, 2015 11:10 am

I'm in my 30s, and I've never aspired to be a manager. Of course there are some who like the management role. And that's fine because if there's one thing we need in the business world it's better managers who like what they do. But don't go with the promotion with the idea that you're getting "paid more".

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Wed May 20, 2015 10:57 am

I decided not to apply. Thanks all for your feedback

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by LiveSimple » Wed May 20, 2015 2:28 pm

:sharebeer

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by island » Wed May 20, 2015 7:24 pm

nitro4214 wrote:I decided not to apply. Thanks all for your feedback
What made you finally decide not to?

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Re: Should I apply for manager's job or continue as a techie?

Post by nitro4214 » Wed May 20, 2015 11:50 pm

island wrote:
nitro4214 wrote:I decided not to apply. Thanks all for your feedback
What made you finally decide not to?
- I don't really want to be called on evenings and weekends.
- If I got the job, I would have to rely on the other applicants (the last boss hired them and gave them information he did not give me) and they may not be very happy if I get the job and not one of them.
- Longer hours
- Is is more difficult to find a management job than a techie job in the event it did not work out.

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